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United States47024 Posts
On August 11 2013 04:30 Kuroeeah wrote:
The Hao getting hooked with aegis didn't really have anything to do with fog because he had high ground vision. He saw Dendi throw the actual hook, it was a case where the actual effect of it appeared as if the hook was thrown from the left even though Dendi threw it straight.
If you've never seen it in DotA 2 before, you have no idea whether you're supposed to be dodging the hook you see or the hook that was "supposed" to be there.
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On August 11 2013 04:31 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 04:30 Kuroeeah wrote:On August 11 2013 04:25 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 04:17 ZiggyStardust wrote:On August 11 2013 04:02 TheYango wrote:On August 11 2013 03:54 superstartran wrote:
The one on Doom already is borderline invisible. It glitches out just before it hits. And the one on Gyro with Aegis is a 100% invisible hook. There's no way he saw that coming. The one on Visage I'm pretty sure was delayed hook too. Of note for the Gyro one, notice that there is never a moment where the hook is traveling UP toward Gyro, even though Pudge was standing below Gyro when he cast hook. When the hook connects, it's traveling toward Gyro from the left. So even if the hook is visible, it's completely does not match the actual hook projectile (which is still traveling from the direction that Pudge threw it) which basically means it's invisible. Dodging the hook projectile you see coming at you from the left is actually meaningless because the real projectile is the invisible one that originated from where Pudge was before he was teleported. Basically the only time the actual hook's trajectory matches the visual path of the hook is if you're being hooked precisely on a straight-line path from the fountain. Otherwise the hook you see isn't the one you have to dodge. The point of contact remains the same, though. Bottom line is that if you know what you are up against it wouldn't be that hard to dodge it. TongFu probably haven't played against Pudge competitively let alone against fountain-hooking one which proved to be their demise. What are you talking about? From the fog you can get invis hooked, and alot of people dodge shit based on visual que. It's massively stupid that the hook is invisible. From where Hao is at, he can dodge it if he could see the hook go up, but he didn't and as such stood still. The Hao getting hooked with aegis didn't really have anything to do with fog because he had high ground vision. He saw Dendi throw the actual hook, it was a case where the actual effect of it appeared as if the hook was thrown from the left even though Dendi threw it straight. Seriously. Fucking. Watch. The. Video. The hook never gets thrown out visually from Pudge's original position. It's only Pudge playing the animation of him about to hook, but everyone knows you can also cancel it. Hao is at a distance where it is possible to side step the hook if he reacts immediately to the hook visual, but since there is no visual he stands there and dies.
It actually does. If it was normal hook it would have landed 100% percent, Hao couldn't react. I guess game 1 was also indication of broken mechanics and "invisible hooks", since they got hooked over and over again, go figure...
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On August 11 2013 04:35 ZiggyStardust wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 04:31 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 04:30 Kuroeeah wrote:On August 11 2013 04:25 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 04:17 ZiggyStardust wrote:On August 11 2013 04:02 TheYango wrote:On August 11 2013 03:54 superstartran wrote:
The one on Doom already is borderline invisible. It glitches out just before it hits. And the one on Gyro with Aegis is a 100% invisible hook. There's no way he saw that coming. The one on Visage I'm pretty sure was delayed hook too. Of note for the Gyro one, notice that there is never a moment where the hook is traveling UP toward Gyro, even though Pudge was standing below Gyro when he cast hook. When the hook connects, it's traveling toward Gyro from the left. So even if the hook is visible, it's completely does not match the actual hook projectile (which is still traveling from the direction that Pudge threw it) which basically means it's invisible. Dodging the hook projectile you see coming at you from the left is actually meaningless because the real projectile is the invisible one that originated from where Pudge was before he was teleported. Basically the only time the actual hook's trajectory matches the visual path of the hook is if you're being hooked precisely on a straight-line path from the fountain. Otherwise the hook you see isn't the one you have to dodge. The point of contact remains the same, though. Bottom line is that if you know what you are up against it wouldn't be that hard to dodge it. TongFu probably haven't played against Pudge competitively let alone against fountain-hooking one which proved to be their demise. What are you talking about? From the fog you can get invis hooked, and alot of people dodge shit based on visual que. It's massively stupid that the hook is invisible. From where Hao is at, he can dodge it if he could see the hook go up, but he didn't and as such stood still. The Hao getting hooked with aegis didn't really have anything to do with fog because he had high ground vision. He saw Dendi throw the actual hook, it was a case where the actual effect of it appeared as if the hook was thrown from the left even though Dendi threw it straight. Seriously. Fucking. Watch. The. Video. The hook never gets thrown out visually from Pudge's original position. It's only Pudge playing the animation of him about to hook, but everyone knows you can also cancel it. Hao is at a distance where it is possible to side step the hook if he reacts immediately to the hook visual, but since there is no visual he stands there and dies. It actually does. If it was normal hook it would have landed 100% percent, Hao couldn't react. I guess game 1 was also indication of broken mechanics and "invisible hooks", since they got hooked over and over again, go figure...
stop ignoring someone who knows mechanics better than you
On August 11 2013 04:29 TheYango wrote:
Ziggy, what you said about the point of contact being the same is meaningless, because the direction you have to dodge is dependent on the direction where the hook is coming from. You dodge perpendicular to the hook's direction of travel, so even if the point of contact is the same, the direction you dodge changes entirely if the visual hook doesn't match the actual hook.
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On August 11 2013 04:35 ZiggyStardust wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 04:31 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 04:30 Kuroeeah wrote:On August 11 2013 04:25 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 04:17 ZiggyStardust wrote:On August 11 2013 04:02 TheYango wrote:On August 11 2013 03:54 superstartran wrote:
The one on Doom already is borderline invisible. It glitches out just before it hits. And the one on Gyro with Aegis is a 100% invisible hook. There's no way he saw that coming. The one on Visage I'm pretty sure was delayed hook too. Of note for the Gyro one, notice that there is never a moment where the hook is traveling UP toward Gyro, even though Pudge was standing below Gyro when he cast hook. When the hook connects, it's traveling toward Gyro from the left. So even if the hook is visible, it's completely does not match the actual hook projectile (which is still traveling from the direction that Pudge threw it) which basically means it's invisible. Dodging the hook projectile you see coming at you from the left is actually meaningless because the real projectile is the invisible one that originated from where Pudge was before he was teleported. Basically the only time the actual hook's trajectory matches the visual path of the hook is if you're being hooked precisely on a straight-line path from the fountain. Otherwise the hook you see isn't the one you have to dodge. The point of contact remains the same, though. Bottom line is that if you know what you are up against it wouldn't be that hard to dodge it. TongFu probably haven't played against Pudge competitively let alone against fountain-hooking one which proved to be their demise. What are you talking about? From the fog you can get invis hooked, and alot of people dodge shit based on visual que. It's massively stupid that the hook is invisible. From where Hao is at, he can dodge it if he could see the hook go up, but he didn't and as such stood still. The Hao getting hooked with aegis didn't really have anything to do with fog because he had high ground vision. He saw Dendi throw the actual hook, it was a case where the actual effect of it appeared as if the hook was thrown from the left even though Dendi threw it straight. Seriously. Fucking. Watch. The. Video. The hook never gets thrown out visually from Pudge's original position. It's only Pudge playing the animation of him about to hook, but everyone knows you can also cancel it. Hao is at a distance where it is possible to side step the hook if he reacts immediately to the hook visual, but since there is no visual he stands there and dies. It actually does. If it was normal hook it would have landed 100% percent, Hao couldn't react. I guess game 1 was also indication of broken mechanics and "invisible hooks", since they got hooked over and over again, go figure...
What? At that range it is easy to dodge, IF YOU CAN SEE THE HOOK.
Not to mention the hook on Doom was a 100% invisible hook now that I watch it in slow motion again. TF must have realized that they couldn't see fountain hooks, so that's a big reason why they played so passive.
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On August 11 2013 04:31 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 04:30 Kuroeeah wrote:On August 11 2013 04:25 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 04:17 ZiggyStardust wrote:On August 11 2013 04:02 TheYango wrote:On August 11 2013 03:54 superstartran wrote:
The one on Doom already is borderline invisible. It glitches out just before it hits. And the one on Gyro with Aegis is a 100% invisible hook. There's no way he saw that coming. The one on Visage I'm pretty sure was delayed hook too. Of note for the Gyro one, notice that there is never a moment where the hook is traveling UP toward Gyro, even though Pudge was standing below Gyro when he cast hook. When the hook connects, it's traveling toward Gyro from the left. So even if the hook is visible, it's completely does not match the actual hook projectile (which is still traveling from the direction that Pudge threw it) which basically means it's invisible. Dodging the hook projectile you see coming at you from the left is actually meaningless because the real projectile is the invisible one that originated from where Pudge was before he was teleported. Basically the only time the actual hook's trajectory matches the visual path of the hook is if you're being hooked precisely on a straight-line path from the fountain. Otherwise the hook you see isn't the one you have to dodge. The point of contact remains the same, though. Bottom line is that if you know what you are up against it wouldn't be that hard to dodge it. TongFu probably haven't played against Pudge competitively let alone against fountain-hooking one which proved to be their demise. What are you talking about? From the fog you can get invis hooked, and alot of people dodge shit based on visual que. It's massively stupid that the hook is invisible. From where Hao is at, he can dodge it if he could see the hook go up, but he didn't and as such stood still. The Hao getting hooked with aegis didn't really have anything to do with fog because he had high ground vision. He saw Dendi throw the actual hook, it was a case where the actual effect of it appeared as if the hook was thrown from the left even though Dendi threw it straight. Seriously. Fucking. Watch. The. Video. The hook never gets thrown out visually from Pudge's original position. It's only Pudge playing the animation of him about to hook, but everyone knows you can also cancel it. Hao is at a distance where it is possible to side step the hook if he reacts immediately to the hook visual, but since there is no visual he stands there and dies.
Your wrong about fog having relevance on this specific hook and there being no visual. The visual cue was screwed up, Hao having to dodge the hook based on visuals was screwed but the completed animation was there, Hao saw Dendi throw the hook and thus your wrong about the detail of there being no visuals at all and fog having an impact.
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On August 11 2013 04:36 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 04:35 ZiggyStardust wrote:On August 11 2013 04:31 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 04:30 Kuroeeah wrote:On August 11 2013 04:25 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 04:17 ZiggyStardust wrote:On August 11 2013 04:02 TheYango wrote:On August 11 2013 03:54 superstartran wrote:
The one on Doom already is borderline invisible. It glitches out just before it hits. And the one on Gyro with Aegis is a 100% invisible hook. There's no way he saw that coming. The one on Visage I'm pretty sure was delayed hook too. Of note for the Gyro one, notice that there is never a moment where the hook is traveling UP toward Gyro, even though Pudge was standing below Gyro when he cast hook. When the hook connects, it's traveling toward Gyro from the left. So even if the hook is visible, it's completely does not match the actual hook projectile (which is still traveling from the direction that Pudge threw it) which basically means it's invisible. Dodging the hook projectile you see coming at you from the left is actually meaningless because the real projectile is the invisible one that originated from where Pudge was before he was teleported. Basically the only time the actual hook's trajectory matches the visual path of the hook is if you're being hooked precisely on a straight-line path from the fountain. Otherwise the hook you see isn't the one you have to dodge. The point of contact remains the same, though. Bottom line is that if you know what you are up against it wouldn't be that hard to dodge it. TongFu probably haven't played against Pudge competitively let alone against fountain-hooking one which proved to be their demise. What are you talking about? From the fog you can get invis hooked, and alot of people dodge shit based on visual que. It's massively stupid that the hook is invisible. From where Hao is at, he can dodge it if he could see the hook go up, but he didn't and as such stood still. The Hao getting hooked with aegis didn't really have anything to do with fog because he had high ground vision. He saw Dendi throw the actual hook, it was a case where the actual effect of it appeared as if the hook was thrown from the left even though Dendi threw it straight. Seriously. Fucking. Watch. The. Video. The hook never gets thrown out visually from Pudge's original position. It's only Pudge playing the animation of him about to hook, but everyone knows you can also cancel it. Hao is at a distance where it is possible to side step the hook if he reacts immediately to the hook visual, but since there is no visual he stands there and dies. It actually does. If it was normal hook it would have landed 100% percent, Hao couldn't react. I guess game 1 was also indication of broken mechanics and "invisible hooks", since they got hooked over and over again, go figure... stop ignoring someone who knows mechanics better than you Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 04:29 TheYango wrote:
Ziggy, what you said about the point of contact being the same is meaningless, because the direction you have to dodge is dependent on the direction where the hook is coming from. You dodge perpendicular to the hook's direction of travel, so even if the point of contact is the same, the direction you dodge changes entirely if the visual hook doesn't match the actual hook.
What is there to ignore? Most of the hooks weren't even being dodged. TongFu stood at one place/walked in a straight line. It wasn't a matter of invisible hooks/bugged mechanics just slow reactions/zero experience against that particular hero. Theory-crafting is all fine but we've seen the game. We also saw game one and TongFu's inability to dodge the spell even if it wasn't fountain hooks.
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On August 11 2013 04:41 Kuroeeah wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 04:31 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 04:30 Kuroeeah wrote:On August 11 2013 04:25 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 04:17 ZiggyStardust wrote:On August 11 2013 04:02 TheYango wrote:On August 11 2013 03:54 superstartran wrote:
The one on Doom already is borderline invisible. It glitches out just before it hits. And the one on Gyro with Aegis is a 100% invisible hook. There's no way he saw that coming. The one on Visage I'm pretty sure was delayed hook too. Of note for the Gyro one, notice that there is never a moment where the hook is traveling UP toward Gyro, even though Pudge was standing below Gyro when he cast hook. When the hook connects, it's traveling toward Gyro from the left. So even if the hook is visible, it's completely does not match the actual hook projectile (which is still traveling from the direction that Pudge threw it) which basically means it's invisible. Dodging the hook projectile you see coming at you from the left is actually meaningless because the real projectile is the invisible one that originated from where Pudge was before he was teleported. Basically the only time the actual hook's trajectory matches the visual path of the hook is if you're being hooked precisely on a straight-line path from the fountain. Otherwise the hook you see isn't the one you have to dodge. The point of contact remains the same, though. Bottom line is that if you know what you are up against it wouldn't be that hard to dodge it. TongFu probably haven't played against Pudge competitively let alone against fountain-hooking one which proved to be their demise. What are you talking about? From the fog you can get invis hooked, and alot of people dodge shit based on visual que. It's massively stupid that the hook is invisible. From where Hao is at, he can dodge it if he could see the hook go up, but he didn't and as such stood still. The Hao getting hooked with aegis didn't really have anything to do with fog because he had high ground vision. He saw Dendi throw the actual hook, it was a case where the actual effect of it appeared as if the hook was thrown from the left even though Dendi threw it straight. Seriously. Fucking. Watch. The. Video. The hook never gets thrown out visually from Pudge's original position. It's only Pudge playing the animation of him about to hook, but everyone knows you can also cancel it. Hao is at a distance where it is possible to side step the hook if he reacts immediately to the hook visual, but since there is no visual he stands there and dies. Your wrong about fog having relevance on this specific hook and there being no visual. The visual cue was screwed up, Hao having to dodge the hook based on visuals was screwed but the completed animation was there, Hao saw Dendi throw the hook and thus your wrong about the detail of there being no visuals at all and fog having an impact.
You're putting words into my mouth.
I said that you can use invisible hooks through fog making it impossible to dodge. The particular instance with Hao was an invisible hook with no visual cue, which is a big deal. Sure he can see Pudge starting the animation, but it was for a very brief split second. A big part of him getting hit at that range was him not seeing the visual ques.
MU 100% got invisible hooked from fog, there's no doubt about that at top lane. Watch the video again.
On August 11 2013 04:41 ZiggyStardust wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 04:36 opterown wrote:On August 11 2013 04:35 ZiggyStardust wrote:On August 11 2013 04:31 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 04:30 Kuroeeah wrote:On August 11 2013 04:25 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 04:17 ZiggyStardust wrote:On August 11 2013 04:02 TheYango wrote:On August 11 2013 03:54 superstartran wrote:
The one on Doom already is borderline invisible. It glitches out just before it hits. And the one on Gyro with Aegis is a 100% invisible hook. There's no way he saw that coming. The one on Visage I'm pretty sure was delayed hook too. Of note for the Gyro one, notice that there is never a moment where the hook is traveling UP toward Gyro, even though Pudge was standing below Gyro when he cast hook. When the hook connects, it's traveling toward Gyro from the left. So even if the hook is visible, it's completely does not match the actual hook projectile (which is still traveling from the direction that Pudge threw it) which basically means it's invisible. Dodging the hook projectile you see coming at you from the left is actually meaningless because the real projectile is the invisible one that originated from where Pudge was before he was teleported. Basically the only time the actual hook's trajectory matches the visual path of the hook is if you're being hooked precisely on a straight-line path from the fountain. Otherwise the hook you see isn't the one you have to dodge. The point of contact remains the same, though. Bottom line is that if you know what you are up against it wouldn't be that hard to dodge it. TongFu probably haven't played against Pudge competitively let alone against fountain-hooking one which proved to be their demise. What are you talking about? From the fog you can get invis hooked, and alot of people dodge shit based on visual que. It's massively stupid that the hook is invisible. From where Hao is at, he can dodge it if he could see the hook go up, but he didn't and as such stood still. The Hao getting hooked with aegis didn't really have anything to do with fog because he had high ground vision. He saw Dendi throw the actual hook, it was a case where the actual effect of it appeared as if the hook was thrown from the left even though Dendi threw it straight. Seriously. Fucking. Watch. The. Video. The hook never gets thrown out visually from Pudge's original position. It's only Pudge playing the animation of him about to hook, but everyone knows you can also cancel it. Hao is at a distance where it is possible to side step the hook if he reacts immediately to the hook visual, but since there is no visual he stands there and dies. It actually does. If it was normal hook it would have landed 100% percent, Hao couldn't react. I guess game 1 was also indication of broken mechanics and "invisible hooks", since they got hooked over and over again, go figure... stop ignoring someone who knows mechanics better than you On August 11 2013 04:29 TheYango wrote:
Ziggy, what you said about the point of contact being the same is meaningless, because the direction you have to dodge is dependent on the direction where the hook is coming from. You dodge perpendicular to the hook's direction of travel, so even if the point of contact is the same, the direction you dodge changes entirely if the visual hook doesn't match the actual hook. What is there to ignore? Most of the hooks weren't even being dodged. TongFu stood at one place/walked in a straight line. It wasn't a matter of invisible hooks/bugged mechanics just slow reactions/zero experience against that particular hero. Theory-crafting is all fine but we've seen the game. We also saw game one and TongFu's inability to dodge the spell even if it wasn't fountain hooks.
So we should have one shot mechanics with no visual cues? Great. Most of the hooks weren't dodged because they were glitchy as fuck. Mu's Doom at top lane and Gyro with Aegis are perfect examples of it.
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On August 11 2013 04:33 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 04:30 Kuroeeah wrote:
The Hao getting hooked with aegis didn't really have anything to do with fog because he had high ground vision. He saw Dendi throw the actual hook, it was a case where the actual effect of it appeared as if the hook was thrown from the left even though Dendi threw it straight. If you've never seen it in DotA 2 before, you have no idea whether you're supposed to be dodging the hook you see or the hook that was "supposed" to be there.
My argument isnt the visual effect of the hook being inaccurate to the actual trajectory of the ability. I know Hao had to dodge the straight "invisible" hook. My argument isn't which hook to dodge (the visual or actual effect), im arguing that Hao in that case saw the hook being thrown and there being an inaccurate visual is different from there being no visual at all. Why does fog have any relevance in this case?
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On August 11 2013 04:47 Kuroeeah wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 04:33 TheYango wrote:On August 11 2013 04:30 Kuroeeah wrote:
The Hao getting hooked with aegis didn't really have anything to do with fog because he had high ground vision. He saw Dendi throw the actual hook, it was a case where the actual effect of it appeared as if the hook was thrown from the left even though Dendi threw it straight. If you've never seen it in DotA 2 before, you have no idea whether you're supposed to be dodging the hook you see or the hook that was "supposed" to be there. My argument isnt the visual effect of the hook being inaccurate to the actual trajectory of the ability. I know Hao had to dodge the straight "invisible" hook. My argument isn't which hook to dodge (the visual or actual effect), im arguing that Hao in that case saw whether the hook was thrown and there being an inaccurate visual which is different from there being no visual at all. Why does fog have any relevance in this case?
Because there is almost no visual que at all. Pudge gets teleported just as his animation is about to complete, making it basically impossible to see if a Hook is getting thrown out.
And as I said, an invisible hook happened to Tongfu earlier. Mu at top lane 100% got hit by a invisible hook from the fog.
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On August 11 2013 04:43 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 04:41 Kuroeeah wrote:On August 11 2013 04:31 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 04:30 Kuroeeah wrote:On August 11 2013 04:25 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 04:17 ZiggyStardust wrote:On August 11 2013 04:02 TheYango wrote:On August 11 2013 03:54 superstartran wrote:
The one on Doom already is borderline invisible. It glitches out just before it hits. And the one on Gyro with Aegis is a 100% invisible hook. There's no way he saw that coming. The one on Visage I'm pretty sure was delayed hook too. Of note for the Gyro one, notice that there is never a moment where the hook is traveling UP toward Gyro, even though Pudge was standing below Gyro when he cast hook. When the hook connects, it's traveling toward Gyro from the left. So even if the hook is visible, it's completely does not match the actual hook projectile (which is still traveling from the direction that Pudge threw it) which basically means it's invisible. Dodging the hook projectile you see coming at you from the left is actually meaningless because the real projectile is the invisible one that originated from where Pudge was before he was teleported. Basically the only time the actual hook's trajectory matches the visual path of the hook is if you're being hooked precisely on a straight-line path from the fountain. Otherwise the hook you see isn't the one you have to dodge. The point of contact remains the same, though. Bottom line is that if you know what you are up against it wouldn't be that hard to dodge it. TongFu probably haven't played against Pudge competitively let alone against fountain-hooking one which proved to be their demise. What are you talking about? From the fog you can get invis hooked, and alot of people dodge shit based on visual que. It's massively stupid that the hook is invisible. From where Hao is at, he can dodge it if he could see the hook go up, but he didn't and as such stood still. The Hao getting hooked with aegis didn't really have anything to do with fog because he had high ground vision. He saw Dendi throw the actual hook, it was a case where the actual effect of it appeared as if the hook was thrown from the left even though Dendi threw it straight. Seriously. Fucking. Watch. The. Video. The hook never gets thrown out visually from Pudge's original position. It's only Pudge playing the animation of him about to hook, but everyone knows you can also cancel it. Hao is at a distance where it is possible to side step the hook if he reacts immediately to the hook visual, but since there is no visual he stands there and dies. Your wrong about fog having relevance on this specific hook and there being no visual. The visual cue was screwed up, Hao having to dodge the hook based on visuals was screwed but the completed animation was there, Hao saw Dendi throw the hook and thus your wrong about the detail of there being no visuals at all and fog having an impact. You're putting words into my mouth. I said that you can use invisible hooks through fog making it impossible to dodge. The particular instance with Hao was an invisible hook with no visual cue, which is a big deal. Sure he can see Pudge starting the animation, but it was for a very brief split second. A big part of him getting hit at that range was him not seeing the visual ques. MU 100% got invisible hooked from fog, there's no doubt about that at top lane. Watch the video again. Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 04:41 ZiggyStardust wrote:On August 11 2013 04:36 opterown wrote:On August 11 2013 04:35 ZiggyStardust wrote:On August 11 2013 04:31 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 04:30 Kuroeeah wrote:On August 11 2013 04:25 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 04:17 ZiggyStardust wrote:On August 11 2013 04:02 TheYango wrote:On August 11 2013 03:54 superstartran wrote:
The one on Doom already is borderline invisible. It glitches out just before it hits. And the one on Gyro with Aegis is a 100% invisible hook. There's no way he saw that coming. The one on Visage I'm pretty sure was delayed hook too. Of note for the Gyro one, notice that there is never a moment where the hook is traveling UP toward Gyro, even though Pudge was standing below Gyro when he cast hook. When the hook connects, it's traveling toward Gyro from the left. So even if the hook is visible, it's completely does not match the actual hook projectile (which is still traveling from the direction that Pudge threw it) which basically means it's invisible. Dodging the hook projectile you see coming at you from the left is actually meaningless because the real projectile is the invisible one that originated from where Pudge was before he was teleported. Basically the only time the actual hook's trajectory matches the visual path of the hook is if you're being hooked precisely on a straight-line path from the fountain. Otherwise the hook you see isn't the one you have to dodge. The point of contact remains the same, though. Bottom line is that if you know what you are up against it wouldn't be that hard to dodge it. TongFu probably haven't played against Pudge competitively let alone against fountain-hooking one which proved to be their demise. What are you talking about? From the fog you can get invis hooked, and alot of people dodge shit based on visual que. It's massively stupid that the hook is invisible. From where Hao is at, he can dodge it if he could see the hook go up, but he didn't and as such stood still. The Hao getting hooked with aegis didn't really have anything to do with fog because he had high ground vision. He saw Dendi throw the actual hook, it was a case where the actual effect of it appeared as if the hook was thrown from the left even though Dendi threw it straight. Seriously. Fucking. Watch. The. Video. The hook never gets thrown out visually from Pudge's original position. It's only Pudge playing the animation of him about to hook, but everyone knows you can also cancel it. Hao is at a distance where it is possible to side step the hook if he reacts immediately to the hook visual, but since there is no visual he stands there and dies. It actually does. If it was normal hook it would have landed 100% percent, Hao couldn't react. I guess game 1 was also indication of broken mechanics and "invisible hooks", since they got hooked over and over again, go figure... stop ignoring someone who knows mechanics better than you On August 11 2013 04:29 TheYango wrote:
Ziggy, what you said about the point of contact being the same is meaningless, because the direction you have to dodge is dependent on the direction where the hook is coming from. You dodge perpendicular to the hook's direction of travel, so even if the point of contact is the same, the direction you dodge changes entirely if the visual hook doesn't match the actual hook. What is there to ignore? Most of the hooks weren't even being dodged. TongFu stood at one place/walked in a straight line. It wasn't a matter of invisible hooks/bugged mechanics just slow reactions/zero experience against that particular hero. Theory-crafting is all fine but we've seen the game. We also saw game one and TongFu's inability to dodge the spell even if it wasn't fountain hooks. So we should have one shot mechanics with no visual cues? Great. Most of the hooks weren't dodged because they were glitchy as fuck. Mu's Doom at top lane and Gyro with Aegis are perfect examples of it.
They had visual cues, that's the point I was trying to make. Yes, that hook didn't always connect from the same angle it was thrown, but I can tell you these hooks were going to land. It would have been broken if the original hooks wasn't and the deflected trajectory ones could but that wasn't the case. The original hooks were landing no matter what. They saw them being thrown and didn't react.
I actually see a lot of logic in your main point. That fountain-hook is potentially imbalanced based on the fountain mechanic. I started having problems when you started with the invisible hooks nonsense and their inability to dodge based on the "invisibility", rather than on their inexperience versus that hero, which was already shown in game 1.
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On August 11 2013 04:49 ZiggyStardust wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 04:43 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 04:41 Kuroeeah wrote:On August 11 2013 04:31 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 04:30 Kuroeeah wrote:On August 11 2013 04:25 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 04:17 ZiggyStardust wrote:On August 11 2013 04:02 TheYango wrote:On August 11 2013 03:54 superstartran wrote:
The one on Doom already is borderline invisible. It glitches out just before it hits. And the one on Gyro with Aegis is a 100% invisible hook. There's no way he saw that coming. The one on Visage I'm pretty sure was delayed hook too. Of note for the Gyro one, notice that there is never a moment where the hook is traveling UP toward Gyro, even though Pudge was standing below Gyro when he cast hook. When the hook connects, it's traveling toward Gyro from the left. So even if the hook is visible, it's completely does not match the actual hook projectile (which is still traveling from the direction that Pudge threw it) which basically means it's invisible. Dodging the hook projectile you see coming at you from the left is actually meaningless because the real projectile is the invisible one that originated from where Pudge was before he was teleported. Basically the only time the actual hook's trajectory matches the visual path of the hook is if you're being hooked precisely on a straight-line path from the fountain. Otherwise the hook you see isn't the one you have to dodge. The point of contact remains the same, though. Bottom line is that if you know what you are up against it wouldn't be that hard to dodge it. TongFu probably haven't played against Pudge competitively let alone against fountain-hooking one which proved to be their demise. What are you talking about? From the fog you can get invis hooked, and alot of people dodge shit based on visual que. It's massively stupid that the hook is invisible. From where Hao is at, he can dodge it if he could see the hook go up, but he didn't and as such stood still. The Hao getting hooked with aegis didn't really have anything to do with fog because he had high ground vision. He saw Dendi throw the actual hook, it was a case where the actual effect of it appeared as if the hook was thrown from the left even though Dendi threw it straight. Seriously. Fucking. Watch. The. Video. The hook never gets thrown out visually from Pudge's original position. It's only Pudge playing the animation of him about to hook, but everyone knows you can also cancel it. Hao is at a distance where it is possible to side step the hook if he reacts immediately to the hook visual, but since there is no visual he stands there and dies. Your wrong about fog having relevance on this specific hook and there being no visual. The visual cue was screwed up, Hao having to dodge the hook based on visuals was screwed but the completed animation was there, Hao saw Dendi throw the hook and thus your wrong about the detail of there being no visuals at all and fog having an impact. You're putting words into my mouth. I said that you can use invisible hooks through fog making it impossible to dodge. The particular instance with Hao was an invisible hook with no visual cue, which is a big deal. Sure he can see Pudge starting the animation, but it was for a very brief split second. A big part of him getting hit at that range was him not seeing the visual ques. MU 100% got invisible hooked from fog, there's no doubt about that at top lane. Watch the video again. On August 11 2013 04:41 ZiggyStardust wrote:On August 11 2013 04:36 opterown wrote:On August 11 2013 04:35 ZiggyStardust wrote:On August 11 2013 04:31 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 04:30 Kuroeeah wrote:On August 11 2013 04:25 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 04:17 ZiggyStardust wrote:On August 11 2013 04:02 TheYango wrote:
[quote]
Of note for the Gyro one, notice that there is never a moment where the hook is traveling UP toward Gyro, even though Pudge was standing below Gyro when he cast hook. When the hook connects, it's traveling toward Gyro from the left. So even if the hook is visible, it's completely does not match the actual hook projectile (which is still traveling from the direction that Pudge threw it) which basically means it's invisible. Dodging the hook projectile you see coming at you from the left is actually meaningless because the real projectile is the invisible one that originated from where Pudge was before he was teleported.
Basically the only time the actual hook's trajectory matches the visual path of the hook is if you're being hooked precisely on a straight-line path from the fountain. Otherwise the hook you see isn't the one you have to dodge. The point of contact remains the same, though. Bottom line is that if you know what you are up against it wouldn't be that hard to dodge it. TongFu probably haven't played against Pudge competitively let alone against fountain-hooking one which proved to be their demise. What are you talking about? From the fog you can get invis hooked, and alot of people dodge shit based on visual que. It's massively stupid that the hook is invisible. From where Hao is at, he can dodge it if he could see the hook go up, but he didn't and as such stood still. The Hao getting hooked with aegis didn't really have anything to do with fog because he had high ground vision. He saw Dendi throw the actual hook, it was a case where the actual effect of it appeared as if the hook was thrown from the left even though Dendi threw it straight. Seriously. Fucking. Watch. The. Video. The hook never gets thrown out visually from Pudge's original position. It's only Pudge playing the animation of him about to hook, but everyone knows you can also cancel it. Hao is at a distance where it is possible to side step the hook if he reacts immediately to the hook visual, but since there is no visual he stands there and dies. It actually does. If it was normal hook it would have landed 100% percent, Hao couldn't react. I guess game 1 was also indication of broken mechanics and "invisible hooks", since they got hooked over and over again, go figure... stop ignoring someone who knows mechanics better than you On August 11 2013 04:29 TheYango wrote:
Ziggy, what you said about the point of contact being the same is meaningless, because the direction you have to dodge is dependent on the direction where the hook is coming from. You dodge perpendicular to the hook's direction of travel, so even if the point of contact is the same, the direction you dodge changes entirely if the visual hook doesn't match the actual hook. What is there to ignore? Most of the hooks weren't even being dodged. TongFu stood at one place/walked in a straight line. It wasn't a matter of invisible hooks/bugged mechanics just slow reactions/zero experience against that particular hero. Theory-crafting is all fine but we've seen the game. We also saw game one and TongFu's inability to dodge the spell even if it wasn't fountain hooks. So we should have one shot mechanics with no visual cues? Great. Most of the hooks weren't dodged because they were glitchy as fuck. Mu's Doom at top lane and Gyro with Aegis are perfect examples of it. They had visual cues, that's the point I was trying to make. Yes, that hook didn't always connect from the same angle it was thrown, but I can tell you these hooks were going to land. It would have been broken if the original hooks wasn't and the deflected trajectory ones could but that wasn't the case. The original hooks were landing no matter what. They saw them being thrown and didn't react. I actually see a lot of logic in your main point. That fountain-hook is potentially imbalanced based on the fountain mechanic. I started having problems when you started with the invisible hooks nonsense and their inability to dodge based on the "invisibility", rather than on their inexperience versus that hero, which was already shown in game 1.
What? Mu was hit from the fog by an invisible hook to him. There's no way he could see the hook coming.
And for a mechanic that has the ability to one shot you, you shouldn't have such fucked up visual ques. Pudge animation looked like it got cancelled due to the teleport, and no hook came out. No way anyone that plays DotA 2 would ever react to that by dodging the hook unless they specifically practice against it. In fact, no one would ever dodge because it looks like a hook never got thrown.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
they actually dealt really well with pudge in game 3 until the fountain hooks started coming (once navi were really behind); game 1 was a snowball combination of mirana as well as pudge which synergise off each other, making pickoffs easier
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Fountain hooks were cool a year ago.
Sure it is hard to execute.
But after a while it's gets boring.
The only thing I can say that hooking Hao and instant gibbing him with Aegis at fountain just looks broken as fuck.
Not to mention the mechanics of fountain hooking is probably broken.
I just watched the vod and Dendi literally tried 15+ hooks to get off those fountain hooks.
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United States47024 Posts
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On August 11 2013 04:50 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 04:49 ZiggyStardust wrote:On August 11 2013 04:43 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 04:41 Kuroeeah wrote:On August 11 2013 04:31 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 04:30 Kuroeeah wrote:On August 11 2013 04:25 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 04:17 ZiggyStardust wrote:On August 11 2013 04:02 TheYango wrote:On August 11 2013 03:54 superstartran wrote:
The one on Doom already is borderline invisible. It glitches out just before it hits. And the one on Gyro with Aegis is a 100% invisible hook. There's no way he saw that coming. The one on Visage I'm pretty sure was delayed hook too. Of note for the Gyro one, notice that there is never a moment where the hook is traveling UP toward Gyro, even though Pudge was standing below Gyro when he cast hook. When the hook connects, it's traveling toward Gyro from the left. So even if the hook is visible, it's completely does not match the actual hook projectile (which is still traveling from the direction that Pudge threw it) which basically means it's invisible. Dodging the hook projectile you see coming at you from the left is actually meaningless because the real projectile is the invisible one that originated from where Pudge was before he was teleported. Basically the only time the actual hook's trajectory matches the visual path of the hook is if you're being hooked precisely on a straight-line path from the fountain. Otherwise the hook you see isn't the one you have to dodge. The point of contact remains the same, though. Bottom line is that if you know what you are up against it wouldn't be that hard to dodge it. TongFu probably haven't played against Pudge competitively let alone against fountain-hooking one which proved to be their demise. What are you talking about? From the fog you can get invis hooked, and alot of people dodge shit based on visual que. It's massively stupid that the hook is invisible. From where Hao is at, he can dodge it if he could see the hook go up, but he didn't and as such stood still. The Hao getting hooked with aegis didn't really have anything to do with fog because he had high ground vision. He saw Dendi throw the actual hook, it was a case where the actual effect of it appeared as if the hook was thrown from the left even though Dendi threw it straight. Seriously. Fucking. Watch. The. Video. The hook never gets thrown out visually from Pudge's original position. It's only Pudge playing the animation of him about to hook, but everyone knows you can also cancel it. Hao is at a distance where it is possible to side step the hook if he reacts immediately to the hook visual, but since there is no visual he stands there and dies. Your wrong about fog having relevance on this specific hook and there being no visual. The visual cue was screwed up, Hao having to dodge the hook based on visuals was screwed but the completed animation was there, Hao saw Dendi throw the hook and thus your wrong about the detail of there being no visuals at all and fog having an impact. You're putting words into my mouth. I said that you can use invisible hooks through fog making it impossible to dodge. The particular instance with Hao was an invisible hook with no visual cue, which is a big deal. Sure he can see Pudge starting the animation, but it was for a very brief split second. A big part of him getting hit at that range was him not seeing the visual ques. MU 100% got invisible hooked from fog, there's no doubt about that at top lane. Watch the video again. On August 11 2013 04:41 ZiggyStardust wrote:On August 11 2013 04:36 opterown wrote:On August 11 2013 04:35 ZiggyStardust wrote:On August 11 2013 04:31 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 04:30 Kuroeeah wrote:On August 11 2013 04:25 superstartran wrote:On August 11 2013 04:17 ZiggyStardust wrote:
[quote]
The point of contact remains the same, though. Bottom line is that if you know what you are up against it wouldn't be that hard to dodge it. TongFu probably haven't played against Pudge competitively let alone against fountain-hooking one which proved to be their demise.
What are you talking about? From the fog you can get invis hooked, and alot of people dodge shit based on visual que. It's massively stupid that the hook is invisible. From where Hao is at, he can dodge it if he could see the hook go up, but he didn't and as such stood still. The Hao getting hooked with aegis didn't really have anything to do with fog because he had high ground vision. He saw Dendi throw the actual hook, it was a case where the actual effect of it appeared as if the hook was thrown from the left even though Dendi threw it straight. Seriously. Fucking. Watch. The. Video. The hook never gets thrown out visually from Pudge's original position. It's only Pudge playing the animation of him about to hook, but everyone knows you can also cancel it. Hao is at a distance where it is possible to side step the hook if he reacts immediately to the hook visual, but since there is no visual he stands there and dies. It actually does. If it was normal hook it would have landed 100% percent, Hao couldn't react. I guess game 1 was also indication of broken mechanics and "invisible hooks", since they got hooked over and over again, go figure... stop ignoring someone who knows mechanics better than you On August 11 2013 04:29 TheYango wrote:
Ziggy, what you said about the point of contact being the same is meaningless, because the direction you have to dodge is dependent on the direction where the hook is coming from. You dodge perpendicular to the hook's direction of travel, so even if the point of contact is the same, the direction you dodge changes entirely if the visual hook doesn't match the actual hook. What is there to ignore? Most of the hooks weren't even being dodged. TongFu stood at one place/walked in a straight line. It wasn't a matter of invisible hooks/bugged mechanics just slow reactions/zero experience against that particular hero. Theory-crafting is all fine but we've seen the game. We also saw game one and TongFu's inability to dodge the spell even if it wasn't fountain hooks. So we should have one shot mechanics with no visual cues? Great. Most of the hooks weren't dodged because they were glitchy as fuck. Mu's Doom at top lane and Gyro with Aegis are perfect examples of it. They had visual cues, that's the point I was trying to make. Yes, that hook didn't always connect from the same angle it was thrown, but I can tell you these hooks were going to land. It would have been broken if the original hooks wasn't and the deflected trajectory ones could but that wasn't the case. The original hooks were landing no matter what. They saw them being thrown and didn't react. I actually see a lot of logic in your main point. That fountain-hook is potentially imbalanced based on the fountain mechanic. I started having problems when you started with the invisible hooks nonsense and their inability to dodge based on the "invisibility", rather than on their inexperience versus that hero, which was already shown in game 1. What? Mu was hit from the fog by an invisible hook to him. There's no way he could see the hook coming. And for a mechanic that has the ability to one shot you, you shouldn't have such fucked up visual ques. Pudge animation looked like it got cancelled due to the teleport, and no hook came out. No way anyone that plays DotA 2 would ever react to that by dodging the hook unless they specifically practice against it. In fact, no one would ever dodge because it looks like a hook never got thrown.
1. Hao was walking in a straight line
2. Hook was short ranged.
3. Hao couldn't dodge it in any shape or form.
I don't think you can dispute that. Mu was playing over his head, since he probably underestimated Na'Vi's ability to execute the combo (they whiffed like 4237842378 attempts). Sorry, I am leaving you. I have made my points. Have an enjoyable night.
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United States47024 Posts
What? The hook was not short range. Dendi was right at the bottom of the screen in the screenshot I linked, and Mu wasn't even on the screen yet when Dendi started the hook (note Dendi is already in fountain in the screenshot I linked, you can see the leftover white particles from the ToF animation). The hook was over a distance of longer than a screen length and you're saying he couldn't dodge?
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On August 11 2013 04:59 TheYango wrote:
What? The hook was not short range. Dendi was right at the bottom of the screen in the screenshot I linked, and Mu wasn't even on the screen yet when Dendi started the hook (note Dendi is already in fountain in the screenshot I linked). The hook was over a distance of longer than a screen length and you're saying he couldn't dodge?
Even the hook on Hao was very dodgable when in a tight corridor. Just Hao couldn't see that shit coming. He easily could have ran backwards and right above Visage who was right behind him and dodged it, or at the very least have Visage take the hook. That or if the hook isn't dead center right into the corridor area, he prob could have ran right or lower right.
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On August 11 2013 04:59 TheYango wrote:
What? The hook was not short range. Dendi was right at the bottom of the screen in the screenshot I linked, and Mu wasn't even on the screen yet when Dendi started the hook (note Dendi is already in fountain in the screenshot I linked). The hook was over a distance of longer than a screen length and you're saying he couldn't dodge?
Sorry I was talking about Hao (damn, Chinese names). Yes, that hook was suspicious but I thought we were all disputing the game-changing one, which was by far the Gyro Aegis one.
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On August 11 2013 04:51 opterown wrote:
they actually dealt really well with pudge in game 3 until the fountain hooks started coming (once navi were really behind); game 1 was a snowball combination of mirana as well as pudge which synergise off each other, making pickoffs easier
Pudge is a snowball hero. Unlike game 1 where he achieved too many hooks and points in flesh heap, in game 3 Tong Fu wasnt remotely afraid of Pudge initiating on them.
Dendi got to a point in game 1 where a hook would have killed its target. In game 3, it has gotten to the point where an ordinary hook would have killed him.
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On August 11 2013 05:01 ZiggyStardust wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2013 04:59 TheYango wrote:
What? The hook was not short range. Dendi was right at the bottom of the screen in the screenshot I linked, and Mu wasn't even on the screen yet when Dendi started the hook (note Dendi is already in fountain in the screenshot I linked). The hook was over a distance of longer than a screen length and you're saying he couldn't dodge? Sorry I was talking about Hao (damn, Chinese names). Yes, that hook was suspicious but I thought we were all disputing the game-changing one, which was by far the Gyro Aegis one.
The one on Hao can easily be dodged; Dendi is not point blank. He's still a good 4 heroes away from Hao. Hooks at that range can easily be dodged on reaction.
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EPT
