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Kuroeeah
11696 Posts
On August 11 2013 05:01 ZiggyStardust wrote: Sorry I was talking about Hao (damn, Chinese names). Yes, that hook was suspicious but I thought we were all disputing the game-changing one, which was by far the Gyro Aegis one. Yeah same here, I was talking about one specific hook as well. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On August 11 2013 05:02 Kuroeeah wrote: Yeah same here, I was talking about one specific hook as well. Like I said, Hao can easily still dodge that hook if there's a visual cue. A gigantic hooking curve is pretty easy to catch. The second it shows, Hao can dodge to the right because he had cleared the trees going into the jungle. Just that there was no cue at all and the animation for Pudge hook animation barely played because the teleport cut it short. Not to mention the hook on MU was also significant also since it prevented Tongfu from pushing their advantage any further. | ||
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Kuroeeah
11696 Posts
Icefrog made changes like an increase on bounty/xp to promote shorter, more aggressive games and than we had the longest game in dota 2's competitive history take place. The games in Ti3 seems a bit more passive than it did in Ti2, we're not getting as much kills in comparison I think. I don't think its coincidence. This meta seems off. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 11 2013 05:05 superstartran wrote: Like I said, Hao can easily still dodge that hook if there's a visual cue. A gigantic hooking curve is pretty easy to catch. The second it shows, Hao can dodge to the right because he had cleared the trees going into the jungle. Just that there was no cue at all and the animation for Pudge hook animation barely played because the teleport cut it short. Not to mention the hook on MU was also significant also since it prevented Tongfu from pushing their advantage any further. I watched the video several times just to make sure. First off, Hoa was following Dendi with nothing between the two. Second, I questions if he could have dodged the hook at all at that range. Finally, they had doomed chen and I think they assumed that he had not gotten test of faith off, which is likely why he kept chasing pudge. If they had gotten doom off in time, Dendi would never has been sent home due to Puppy being doomed. In short, Tong Fu thought they had locked down the combo with doom. But they didn't take into account that Chen had gem, saw Doom coming and dropped test of Faith on Pudge. Tong Fu went in, thinking their core was safe and got hooked and sent to fountain. Tong Fu tried to shut it down, but got out played because Chen had a gem and saw Doom coming and did exactly what he needed to do. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On August 11 2013 05:37 Plansix wrote: I watched the video several times just to make sure. First off, Hoa was following Dendi with nothing between the two. Second, I questions if he could have dodged the hook at all at that range. Finally, they had doomed chen and I think they assumed that he had not gotten test of faith off, which is likely why he kept chasing pudge. If they had gotten doom off in time, Dendi would never has been sent home due to Puppy being doomed. In short, Tong Fu thought they had locked down the combo with doom. But they didn't take into account that Chen had gem, saw Doom coming and dropped test of Faith on Pudge. Tong Fu went in, thinking their core was safe and got hooked and sent to fountain. Tong Fu tried to shut it down, but got out played because Chen had a gem and saw Doom coming and did exactly what he needed to do. At that range it is perfectly easy to dodge it if you can actually see the hook. You cannot argue that it is impossible to dodge because I've done it before from that range. Hook is fast, but it's not hyper speed. No visual cue was played though, and no one can argue that. No visual cue means basically no way you could possibly think he's hooking. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
http://dev.dota2.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17556&d=1376126547 | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 11 2013 05:41 superstartran wrote: At that range it is perfectly easy to dodge it if you can actually see the hook. You cannot argue that it is impossible to dodge because I've done it before from that range. Hook is fast, but it's not hyper speed. No visual cue was played though, and no one can argue that. No visual cue means basically no way you could possibly think he's hooking. Who knows, he saw pudge turn. It doesn't change the fact that he went in, dropped doom on chen and thought they were ok. Gry went in naked, expecting to be able to just down the entire time got surprised because Chen. The familiars were right behind him and he could have held back for a moment. Or waited for the 6 seconds to pass after the doom, just to be sure test of faith was not case. Tong Fu had a plan, but forgot or didn't notice the gem and got dropped due to it. Hao never would have charged pudge if he didn't think Test of Faith was possible. On August 11 2013 05:45 TheYango wrote: There's also another instance of this that someone screenshotted more clearly on the dev forums. You need to have an account on the dev forums to view it, but the screenshot actually shows how the hook actually pulls Hao without the hook projectile ever even making contact with his hero model. http://dev.dota2.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17556&d=1376126547 It doesn't change the fact that Hao charged head long into Pudge because he thought Chen was silence and he couldn't be fountain hooked. Or that the familiars were right behind him. If he was even half a second less eager for the kill on pudge, pudge gets sent home, no hook and they wipe the team. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On August 11 2013 05:47 Plansix wrote: Who knows, he saw pudge turn. It doesn't change the fact that he went in, dropped doom on chen and thought they were ok. Gry went in naked, expecting to be able to just down the entire time got surprised because Chen. The familiars were right behind him and he could have held back for a moment. Or waited for the 6 seconds to pass after the doom, just to be sure test of faith was not case. Tong Fu had a plan, but forgot or didn't notice the gem and got dropped due to it. Hao never would have charged pudge if he didn't think Test of Faith was possible. Dude you can't say who knows, we can do a test right now I can 100% guarantee I can dodge it at the range Hao was at. Hao had cleared the trees so he could have EASILY went right and dodged that shit. The lack of a visual cue was a HUGE factor. It happened at least 3 times, possibly 4 if we count the one on Visage. So there's at least twice invisible hooks came into play this game, and one where a lack of a visual cue pretty much fucked Hao. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 11 2013 05:49 superstartran wrote: Dude you can't say who knows, we can do a test right now I can 100% guarantee I can dodge it at the range Hao was at. Hao had cleared the trees so he could have EASILY went right and dodged that shit. This is all theory crafting, because dendi could have just as well have hit the hook. If you could dodge all skill shots all the time, no one would use them. That is why we say "who knows, because we don't know." And it doesn't change the fact that they THOUGHT CHEN WAS SILENCED AND COULDN"T TEST OF FAITH. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
The fact that the visual effect of the spell does not match the actual effect of the spell means the functionality is broken, end of story. Dendi could have missed every hook of the entire game and Tongfu could have won and this still would be true. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On August 11 2013 05:54 TheYango wrote: The actual outcome of the game shouldn't even be relevant to this discussion. The fact that the visual effect of the spell does not match the actual effect of the spell means the functionality is broken, end of story. Dendi could have missed every hook of the entire game and Tongfu could have won and this still would be true. Outcome of the game was decided by the lack of visual factors. It happened at least twice, and the third time was a situation that arguably cost the game. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 11 2013 05:54 TheYango wrote: The actual outcome of the game shouldn't even be relevant to this discussion. The fact that the visual effect of the spell does not match the actual effect of the spell means the functionality is broken, end of story. Dendi could have missed every hook of the entire game and Tongfu could have won and this still would be true. That is fact and they should fix it so pudge has to finish his animation and the hook must contact before test of faith triggers. I don't think they should remove it, but should fix the invisible hook issue while keeping the skill interaction whole. | ||
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Kuroeeah
11696 Posts
On August 11 2013 05:54 TheYango wrote: The actual outcome of the game shouldn't even be relevant to this discussion. The fact that the visual effect of the spell does not match the actual effect of the spell means the functionality is broken, end of story. Dendi could have missed every hook of the entire game and Tongfu could have won and this still would be true. What's the discussion then? Every rationale person would agree that even if it were to remain in the game, the visual oddities has to be fixed. If Na'Vi had lost, we would be having a different discussion and there probably wouldn't be an outroar. Look at the tone around the game and notice it started from people universally being enraged at Na'Vi looking desperate to praising them when it started to have an effect on the overall outcome of the game, 2009's commentary serves as a perfect example of this. The argument is whether the current form of fountain hooking belongs in the game or not and it all stems from Na'Vi not being able to win without it. | ||
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Kuroeeah
11696 Posts
On August 11 2013 05:57 Plansix wrote: That is fact and they should fix it so pudge has to finish his animation and the hook must contact before test of faith triggers. I don't think they should remove it, but should fix the invisible hook issue while keeping the skill interaction whole. Does it belong in it's current form just because it takes skill? Why not change the property of the spell (hook) to make it behave similarly to how it functioned in Wc3? You can't really compare fountain hooking to other abilities or heroes and it feels out of place. The effect fountain hooking had in that game is that it not only killed a farmed Hao with aegis but it took him literally away from a fight that they would have won otherwise. A black hole, RP or anything else doesn't remotely have the same impact a fountain hook on this super out farming the living shit out of your whole team aegis wearer does. There was no risk either, it was their only hope of winning. | ||
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Shalaiyn
Netherlands2735 Posts
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7DK6ke1.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eZWFu7O.jpg) | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On August 11 2013 11:35 MrCon wrote: Ok I took some screenshots of those invisible hooks inside the client, view is on Dire's perspective : If you do it in game the hook 100% glitches. I know because I've done the Pudge Chen hook plenty of times. Not to mention those screenshots are presented in an almost dishonest way. The second screen shot is Pudge about to play his hook animation (it's starting), but if you watch it real time you can clearly tell the hook goes invis right before it hits Hao. http://imgur.com/QpDaeIs That demonstrates exactly what I mean. If you watch it in real time it is basically impossible to react because you see no hook traveling at all. Not to mention, there's nobody that can dispute this hook wasn't invisible. http://i.imgur.com/ArYa2eB.jpg | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On August 11 2013 16:40 TheYango wrote: The first one also happens to be one of the lucky cases I mentioned where the direction of the hook was pretty much already in the same direction as the straight line from fountain. Yeah I rewatched it, the hook is still invisible, it's just the same direction as the 'fake hook' from the fountain. | ||
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