On August 10 2013 21:07 opterown wrote: Plansix don't be an idiot this is present in every scene
Your correct that whining is present, but we shouldn't let it dominate the scene and should shut it down. Enjoying SC2 on TL is always soured by whiners in every thread complaining about the style of play, this thing, that thing.
This what we came for TI3 for. For teams picking a risky line up and trying to pull off a combo they have practiced for months. putting everything on the line and pulling it off. At trick that could leave the team hanging 4v5 missing one of their cores. And it was some of the most insane force staff, into hook, into being sent home that I have ever seen.
Holy shit do you actually think it takes a ton of skill to execute a fountain hook? Do you honestly think they practiced that for months? Don't make me laugh. The combo is ridiculously simple to pull off, you just simply hook at a certain time interval, that's all there is to it. Missing isn't even a big deal because you can just TP back if the enemy engages your team. If you hit the enemy carry with aegis, well congrats in most likelihood you just won a game undeservedly.
do you even play dota? did you pay attention to the game at all?
that fight when hao got hooked, chen got doomed like 0.5 seconds right after he casted test of faith on pudge. na'vi got extremely lucky that hao just waltzed right in thinking he was safe, with the aegis. if hao stayed behind the visage, dark seer or rubick they would have won that fight easily, and taken bot tier 2. watch the game again at the time.
doom also fucked up massively at the top rune fight. first tongfu for some reason has NO WARDS at all near top rune, which was why na'vi could go in and fountain hooked visage to start with. then doom decides it's totally cool to walk around with 0 mana (which is why there was no doom ult that fight), even though he could have bottle crowed. then when the fight starts you can see him walk around doing nothing as rubick and gyro get fucked up by alchemist.
the next fight doom decides to ult pudge, which achieves nothing. and it was pretty much over by that point.
sure tongfu only made a couple of small mistakes late game, but that's what dota is all about. and to those people that think "instagib" is imba, dota is filled with instagib combos: puck bomb, sf razes, old school sunder + dagon, od's ult, kunkka crits, etc. and if you don't like this then gtfo and play league or something. (no hate on league, league is just a different game completely)
My 2 cents : •I loved that game. •NaVi wouldn't have won the game if they didn't resort to fountain hooking, this is pretty indisputable. •I agree with Yango that the mechanic of hook should be reverted to how it worked in DotA 1. Personally I don't think fountain hooking should be a reliable way of winning games even if you're good at it. If every game are teams resorting to Pudge/Chen pick+bans and teams, it wouldn't be a fun to watch. Fountain hooking might not be easy but it's easier to pull off in DotA 2 than it was in Wc3 DotA I think. It should stay in the game but games shouldn't resort to having the opposing team being forced into dodging hooks all day. Hao being forced out of a fight (literally) with aegis up is pretty silly. Plus hook's trajectory and mechanic was more interesting in wc3 than it is here. •If Hao with aegis didn't get fountain hooked, there was no possible way Na'Vi would have won the engagement. •I seriously doubt Na'Vi is going to rely on winning the international through picking Chen and Pudge. Not because of balance concerns or confidence but out of self-respect honestly.
On August 10 2013 21:07 opterown wrote: Plansix don't be an idiot this is present in every scene
Your correct that whining is present, but we shouldn't let it dominate the scene and should shut it down. Enjoying SC2 on TL is always soured by whiners in every thread complaining about the style of play, this thing, that thing.
This what we came for TI3 for. For teams picking a risky line up and trying to pull off a combo they have practiced for months. putting everything on the line and pulling it off. At trick that could leave the team hanging 4v5 missing one of their cores. And it was some of the most insane force staff, into hook, into being sent home that I have ever seen.
Holy shit do you actually think it takes a ton of skill to execute a fountain hook? Do you honestly think they practiced that for months? Don't make me laugh. The combo is ridiculously simple to pull off, you just simply hook at a certain time interval, that's all there is to it. Missing isn't even a big deal because you can just TP back if the enemy engages your team. If you hit the enemy carry with aegis, well congrats in most likelihood you just won a game undeservedly.
do you even play dota? did you pay attention to the game at all?
that fight when hao got hooked, chen got doomed like 0.5 seconds right after he casted test of faith on pudge. na'vi got extremely lucky that hao just waltzed right in thinking he was safe, with the aegis. if hao stayed behind the visage, dark seer or rubick they would have won that fight easily, and taken bot tier 2. watch the game again at the time.
doom also fucked up massively at the top rune fight. first tongfu for some reason has NO WARDS at all near top rune, which was why na'vi could go in and fountain hooked visage to start with. then doom decides it's totally cool to walk around with 0 mana, even though he could have bottle crowed. then when the fight starts you can see him walk around doing nothing as rubick and gyro get fucked up alchemist.
the next fight doom decides to ult pudge. and it was pretty much over by that point.
sure tongfu only made a couple of small mistakes late game, but that's what dota is all about. and if you don't like this then gtfo and play league or something. (no hate on league, league is just a different game completely)
I'd argue DotA isn't all about completely outplaying your opponent for the longest period of time, then making a small positional mistake and suddenly being behind.
It took me some time finding this VOD but I had to because so many people are whining... Here is another game with a ridiculous amount of fountain hooks... I remember this game and you'll see why Don't know if this will shed any light on the issue. Yes the game didn't matter. Yes, the stakes were lower (but i don't think stakes should affect whether something is broken or not). Y'all can decide whether fountain hooking changed the course of this game...
I went through the trouble of watching the game and noting every instance of any mention of fountain hooking. Sorry for Tobi's cast for those of you who don't like it, but I love kuroky
I went through the whole game getting the times of anything that has to do with fountain hooking + Show Spoiler +
16:00-17:13 pudge's first item BoT and casters discuss the choice and pudge's relevancy in the game 18:00 #1 20:25 #2 20:40-21:34 fountain hook mechanics explained 21:35 #3 22:20-22:35 reference to dendi/pudge fountain hooking 22:35 #4 22:50-23:02 effects of fountain hooking on the pudge 23:35 #5 24:45-24:55 gold/exp graph 26:00 #6 27:40 #7 28:10 #8 29:10 #9 30:15 #10 30:40 #11 31:15 #12 32:56 #13 33:08-33:30 kuroky says "this isn't a real dota game" 33:45 #14 34:40 #15 37:40 #16 38:55 #17 39:55 #18 40:20 #19 41:50 #20 42:50 #21 44:30 #22 46:05 #23 46:34 #24 47:40 #25 48:15 #26 watch minimap 50:05 #27 51:21 #28 52:00 #29 54:30 #30 55:35 #31 58:30 #32 1:00:00 #33 1:01:00 n0tail just camping in base to share gold to team... 1:02:10 #34 1:03:53 #35 1:04:30 #36 1:05:10 #37 1:05:45 #38 1:07:15 #39 1:07:40 #40 1:08:07 #41 1:10:00 #42 1:10:20 #43 1:11:13 #44 1:12:10 #45 1:12:40 #46 1:13:06 #47 1:13:32 #48 watch this one... 1:14:10 game ends...
On August 10 2013 21:07 opterown wrote: Plansix don't be an idiot this is present in every scene
Your correct that whining is present, but we shouldn't let it dominate the scene and should shut it down. Enjoying SC2 on TL is always soured by whiners in every thread complaining about the style of play, this thing, that thing.
This what we came for TI3 for. For teams picking a risky line up and trying to pull off a combo they have practiced for months. putting everything on the line and pulling it off. At trick that could leave the team hanging 4v5 missing one of their cores. And it was some of the most insane force staff, into hook, into being sent home that I have ever seen.
Holy shit do you actually think it takes a ton of skill to execute a fountain hook? Do you honestly think they practiced that for months? Don't make me laugh. The combo is ridiculously simple to pull off, you just simply hook at a certain time interval, that's all there is to it. Missing isn't even a big deal because you can just TP back if the enemy engages your team. If you hit the enemy carry with aegis, well congrats in most likelihood you just won a game undeservedly.
do you even play dota? did you pay attention to the game at all?
that fight when hao got hooked, chen got doomed like 0.5 seconds right after he casted test of faith on pudge. na'vi got extremely lucky that hao just waltzed right in thinking he was safe, with the aegis. if hao stayed behind the visage, dark seer or rubick they would have won that fight easily, and taken bot tier 2. watch the game again at the time.
doom also fucked up massively at the top rune fight. first tongfu for some reason has NO WARDS at all near top rune, which was why na'vi could go in and fountain hooked visage to start with. then doom decides it's totally cool to walk around with 0 mana, even though he could have bottle crowed. then when the fight starts you can see him walk around doing nothing as rubick and gyro get fucked up alchemist.
the next fight doom decides to ult pudge. and it was pretty much over by that point.
sure tongfu only made a couple of small mistakes late game, but that's what dota is all about. and if you don't like this then gtfo and play league or something. (no hate on league, league is just a different game completely)
I'd argue DotA isn't all about completely outplaying your opponent for the longest period of time, then making a small positional mistake and suddenly being behind.
I'd also like to point out that those saying to 'just dodge it' or 'block it' are also not accounting for the fact that the hook is actually invisible when Pudge gets teleported.
On August 11 2013 03:01 superstartran wrote: I'd also like to point out that those saying to 'just dodge it' or 'block it' are also not accounting for the fact that the hook is actually invisible when Pudge gets teleported.
On August 11 2013 03:01 superstartran wrote: I'd also like to point out that those saying to 'just dodge it' or 'block it' are also not accounting for the fact that the hook is actually invisible when Pudge gets teleported.
Are you 100% sure?
Go to around 45 seconds. Max hook range is invisible. There's a couple of these in the Tongfu game. This is why it's kinda bullshit. So not only do you have a one shot mechanic every 30 seconds or so, it is almost impossible to see it coming from a distance because the hook is invisible. How you consider that fair is beyond me.
Yes, that's because the hook animation lags behind the actual position of the hook with a fountain hook, so once the hook range is long enough, the target is hooked before they ever see the hook.
Even if they keep the current hook functionality, they should at least fix the visuals to match the effect better.
On August 11 2013 03:10 TheYango wrote: Yes, that's because the hook animation lags behind the actual position of the hook with a fountain hook, so once the hook range is long enough, the target is hooked before they ever see the hook.
Even if they keep the current hook functionality, they should at least fix the visuals to match the effect better.
And that's exactly why Tongfu played way passive. I watched parts of the game again and I realized how much bullshit it was. Tongfu was scared because you literally cannot see the hook coming.
On August 11 2013 03:01 superstartran wrote: I'd also like to point out that those saying to 'just dodge it' or 'block it' are also not accounting for the fact that the hook is actually invisible when Pudge gets teleported.
it's invisible after the hook lands.
i think it's stupid, but funny, and will continue to be hilarious until i get hooked, after which i will consider it to be completely bullshit and should be removed.
On August 11 2013 03:00 Bisu-Fan wrote: It took me some time finding this VOD but I had to because so many people are whining... Here is another game with a ridiculous amount of fountain hooks... I remember this game and you'll see why Don't know if this will shed any light on the issue. Yes the game didn't matter. Yes, the stakes were lower (but i don't think stakes should affect whether something is broken or not). Y'all can decide whether fountain hooking changed the course of this game...
I went through the trouble of watching the game and noting every instance of any mention of fountain hooking. Sorry for Tobi's cast for those of you who don't like it, but I love kuroky
On August 11 2013 03:01 superstartran wrote: I'd also like to point out that those saying to 'just dodge it' or 'block it' are also not accounting for the fact that the hook is actually invisible when Pudge gets teleported.
it's invisible after the hook lands.
i think it's stupid, but funny, and will continue to be hilarious until i get hooked, after which i will consider it to be completely bullshit and should be removed.
No rewatch the video I just posted. If you are past a certain distance the hook is actually invisible. Like, ENROUTE to the target the hook is invisible. Tell me how you dodge that shit.
On August 11 2013 03:01 superstartran wrote: I'd also like to point out that those saying to 'just dodge it' or 'block it' are also not accounting for the fact that the hook is actually invisible when Pudge gets teleported.
it's invisible after the hook lands.
i think it's stupid, but funny, and will continue to be hilarious until i get hooked, after which i will consider it to be completely bullshit and should be removed.
The hook becomes "invisible" the moment Pudge gets sent back to fountain, because the Hook projectile shifts back to base with him, while the actual hook is still in flight at its original location. So when it becomes invisible is dependent on Pudge's timing. If he really gets the timing down, it can be invisible the moment the hook leaves his hand.
On August 11 2013 03:00 PUre.nINE wrote: then you haven't played dota enough
What is enough? I've played since 2006/6.36, and I've played all of that time actively.
i guess you have played enough i've played since 6.12b
to each their own i guess
If you really have played DotA that long, then I question how you find this version of fountain hooking preferable to curved hooks/force staff hooks (which are not possible in DotA 2 because of how hook works to make these types of fountain hooks possible).
They should just change the property of the spell to mimick how the trajectory functioned in Wc3 if it's possible.
Even if it is fair and hard to execute, I don't think there should be a spell or even a combination of spells to make the aegis pick up irrelevant. You can't really compare fountain hooking with overpowered heroes(?) or other spells such as reverse polarity/black hole either.
EPT
