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On August 10 2013 21:58 BallinWitStalin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 21:19 MrCon wrote:
Wow reading the LR thread while watching yesterday's games is pretty painful, I'd say it's like a sc2 thread except now sc2 LR threads are pretty good and mostly positive, so it's more like a one or two years old sc2 LR thread.
Alliance won ? Nerf batrider, nerf song, PL imba, nerf illuminate, dota 2 waited TI3 to became imbalanced.
edit : hoo, i'm still not at navi's games, seems they did some imba stuff too. Haha, yeah, it is silly that people would be asking that about the alliance game. DK got what they deserved, they let that ridiculous team composition get through the ban-pick phase, it was their own fault, not imbalance. It's what the ban/picks are for.
I almost shit myself when they first picked Specter. Who does that?
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And for the record, if you can successfully pull off chen/pudge fountain hooks, all power to you. That shit is great, not a bug, and fucking HARD to do competitively.
Sick plays. That's the shit you want to encourage, not nerf.
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On August 10 2013 22:03 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 21:58 BallinWitStalin wrote:On August 10 2013 21:19 MrCon wrote:
Wow reading the LR thread while watching yesterday's games is pretty painful, I'd say it's like a sc2 thread except now sc2 LR threads are pretty good and mostly positive, so it's more like a one or two years old sc2 LR thread.
Alliance won ? Nerf batrider, nerf song, PL imba, nerf illuminate, dota 2 waited TI3 to became imbalanced.
edit : hoo, i'm still not at navi's games, seems they did some imba stuff too. Haha, yeah, it is silly that people would be asking that about the alliance game. DK got what they deserved, they let that ridiculous team composition get through the ban-pick phase, it was their own fault, not imbalance. It's what the ban/picks are for. I almost shit myself when they first picked Specter. Who does that?
Yeah I was facepalming that whole draft. I mean, I'm not pro, and they know more than me, but I just did not see how that mediocre lineup was going to work against what they let Alliance have uncontested.....
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Can't wait for today's games.
Also, why no game advantage for the winner-bracket team in the grand finals? I DON'T GET IT
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On August 10 2013 21:03 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 20:39 Teton wrote:On August 10 2013 20:37 crc wrote:
Why aren't these haters crying when fountain hook was used before? EG had one game where they really tried to make that work, and it resulted in their own demise.
Really what the haters are highlighting with all their whinging, is how innovative Navi has been, discovering this high risk, high skill, exciting (source: the crowd at TI3) new combo that people have always known about, but didn't know how to get right. Also remember, Tongfu, for the longest time, had 3 heroes in the top 4 most farmed heroes list. Even if they fought 4v4, even if one of their carries got hooked back (they have 2 cores remember, doom was leading the farm early on), they still have a great chance if they just kept calm and pressed their massive advantage.
If a bug is really easily abusable and unfair, it would not be left in the game for this long (2 years). If a bug is really abusable situationally, then kudos to the first guy to discover this innovative new strat. It's done in a fucking high stakes game, that's the problem. The trick has been around forever and its not unbeatable. I don't know why you people want the game to become stale and boring, not reward team work and practicing something that is amazingly hard. If it was broken, they would have removed it 3 years ago. Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 20:54 teapoted wrote:On August 10 2013 20:39 Teton wrote:On August 10 2013 20:37 crc wrote:
Why aren't these haters crying when fountain hook was used before? EG had one game where they really tried to make that work, and it resulted in their own demise.
Really what the haters are highlighting with all their whinging, is how innovative Navi has been, discovering this high risk, high skill, exciting (source: the crowd at TI3) new combo that people have always known about, but didn't know how to get right. Also remember, Tongfu, for the longest time, had 3 heroes in the top 4 most farmed heroes list. Even if they fought 4v4, even if one of their carries got hooked back (they have 2 cores remember, doom was leading the farm early on), they still have a great chance if they just kept calm and pressed their massive advantage.
If a bug is really easily abusable and unfair, it would not be left in the game for this long (2 years). If a bug is really abusable situationally, then kudos to the first guy to discover this innovative new strat. It's done in a fucking high stakes game, that's the problem. It was done at TI1. There is no problem except new kids whining. But they whine about everything, like Chinese teams being boring after watching western teams play completely passive when in the lead for 30 minutes into losing the game. Or split pushing. Or Naga song. Or PL. Or fucking everything. Welcome to what SC2 became. This guy didn't "gg", this guy didn't shake hand. This guy cheeses, this guy did 2 base all ins and a map where it is impossible for him to take a 3rd. Protoss is bad, Terran is bad, Zerg is bad. I don't like this casters or that caster. Whiny kids being crying about what they think it unfair and not understanding that no one gives two shits.
Well said. This is why I stopped watching SC2. Scrubs need to stop crying. It's only a matter of time before they start emailing the sponsors.
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I can't believe the uproar over fountain hooks.
This kind of ability interaction is yet another reason that I love Dota2 over LoL. Every time something 'broken' is found in LoL, it gets fixed under their anti-fun policy.
Tongfu should have won that game, but they didnt lose because of Fountain hooks, they lost because they became passive.
Early on Na'Vi couldnt even farm their own jungle without being punished, even if they did get a Fountain hook they would NEVER have been able to win a teamfight if Tongfu had pressured them.
Ultimately Hvost found the farm he needed and Na'vi took a few key engagements, and lost for it. Kudos to Na'vi, I say.
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Hah, I wonder if they will finally "fix" the fountain hook after that. I think it is the first time it was done successfuly in pro match and not just some pro match but TI3. I was under the impression that it was ignored because everybody thought that it was impractical in real match anyway. It will be interesting to see if/how community and Valve will react to that.
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On August 10 2013 22:19 AM wrote:
Hah, I wonder if they will finally "fix" the fountain hook after that. I think it is the first time it was done successfuly in pro match and not just some pro match but TI3. I was under the impression that it was ignored because everybody thought that it was impractical in real match anyway. It will be interesting to see if/how community and Valve will react to that.
That's the only explanation I can think of.
All the people arguing that abusing bugs is acceptable as long abusing them is challenging need to take some courses in logical thinking. These people often even continue by supposedly cleverly remarking that it's possible to ban heroes. But why would you even balance heroes at all, or fix any bugs (and there's been a lot of other bug abuses that have been fixed) whatsoever, if your approach to the game is that the more exploits and imbalance the better (and that the draft ban is the only required answer to them) and that for example finding design flaws and bugs and learning how to exploit them in competitive games is synonymous to being creative? Lastly I would like to know how Dota 2 as a game would be worse off if the fountain hook was removed? The slippery slope fallacy that gets thrown around in this thread is ludicrous, somehow suggesting that requesting the fountain hook to be fixed is the same as requesting every powerful hero or strategy to be removed.
I find the same type of conversation in SC2 maphacking threads, where the deniers are trying to find endless amounts of other possible explanations (no matter how small the chance) for the strange behaviour, other than the obvious one. TongFu could've theoretically done this or that, but if the winning team themselves admit that they won because of the succesful fountain hooks, why are the fanboys here screaming otherwise?
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On August 10 2013 22:08 dizzy101 wrote:
Can't wait for today's games.
Also, why no game advantage for the winner-bracket team in the grand finals? I DON'T GET IT
They will have a day to rest. Thats an advantage.
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On August 10 2013 22:19 AM wrote:
Hah, I wonder if they will finally "fix" the fountain hook after that. I think it is the first time it was done successfuly in pro match and not just some pro match but TI3. I was under the impression that it was ignored because everybody thought that it was impractical in real match anyway. It will be interesting to see if/how community and Valve will react to that.
Not the first time.
In last Dreamhack winter Na'vi did the same. And that gave them a comeback.
And c'mon, Tongfu were dominating the game, even with Hao bad start.
The Aegis kill did the comeback.
Btw: They could had gotten Hao AM again, and this wouldnt happen, Na'vi only used pudge because it was against the slow gyro.
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On August 10 2013 22:19 AM wrote:
Hah, I wonder if they will finally "fix" the fountain hook after that. I think it is the first time it was done successfuly in pro match and not just some pro match but TI3. I was under the impression that it was ignored because everybody thought that it was impractical in real match anyway. It will be interesting to see if/how community and Valve will react to that.
It's been done before. Navi has done it before, and last time, it won them the game too. Yet I (sadly) didnt see an increase in pudge games.
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That Navi vs DK series was one of the most entertaining series I've ever seen in eSports.
The amazing game 1 where Navi had the perfect team composition for Pudge to fit in, and executed it perfectly. Game 2 where Navi seemed to pick another crowd-pleaser with Ursa only to be destroyed by Anti-Mage. Then when they picked Pudge game 3, without a Mirana, I thought it was a bit much and that they should have just picked a solid lineup and tried to outplay them. A game and a half of them losing though made the EPIC fountain hook / alch comeback even more amazing.
I literally stood up from my chair and yelled at least 3 times that game... it was so intense.
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On August 10 2013 22:39 Tarot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 22:19 AM wrote:
Hah, I wonder if they will finally "fix" the fountain hook after that. I think it is the first time it was done successfuly in pro match and not just some pro match but TI3. I was under the impression that it was ignored because everybody thought that it was impractical in real match anyway. It will be interesting to see if/how community and Valve will react to that. It's been done before. Navi has done it before, and last time, it won them the game too. Yet I (sadly) didnt see an increase in pudge games.
In that case unless everybody starts playing pudge I don't see them changing it. It is kinda an unexplored area so it is hard to say how strong it actually is because it happens once in a blue moon.
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On August 10 2013 22:30 xyzz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 22:19 AM wrote:
Hah, I wonder if they will finally "fix" the fountain hook after that. I think it is the first time it was done successfuly in pro match and not just some pro match but TI3. I was under the impression that it was ignored because everybody thought that it was impractical in real match anyway. It will be interesting to see if/how community and Valve will react to that. That's the only explanation I can think of. All the people arguing that abusing bugs is acceptable as long abusing them is challenging need to take some courses in logical thinking. These people often even continue by supposedly cleverly remarking that it's possible to ban heroes. But why would you even balance heroes at all, or fix any bugs (and there's been a lot of other bug abuses that have been fixed) whatsoever, if your approach to the game is that the more exploits and imbalance the better (and that the draft ban is the only required answer to them) and that for example finding design flaws and bugs and learning how to exploit them in competitive games is synonymous to being creative? Lastly I would like to know how Dota 2 as a game would be worse off if the fountain hook was removed? The slippery slope fallacy that gets thrown around in this thread is ludicrous, somehow suggesting that requesting the fountain hook to be fixed is the same as requesting every powerful hero or strategy to be removed. I find the same type of conversation in SC2 maphacking threads, where the deniers are trying to find endless amounts of other possible explanations (no matter how small the chance) for the strange behaviour, other than the obvious one. TongFu could've theoretically done this or that, but if the winning team themselves admit that they won because of the succesful fountain hooks, why are the fanboys here screaming otherwise?
Because maphacking is easy to do, reflects no skill involved in the game, and is cheating. Pudge fountain hooks are fucking hard (the VAST majority of them failed), and awesome to see. They make the game interesting to spectate, and require an absurd amount of co-operation and skill to do, especially against a pro team. It's like saying marines were overpowered in broodwar, because when microed right they can kill lurkers, which cost way more resources. Sure, it's possible, but it's fucking HARD, and that type of stuff made Broodwar one of the best games to spectate. And it's why Dota's one of the best games to spectate. Complex interactions requiring good skill make games exciting.
I just watched the game, and it was great. Also, it really wasn't imbalanced, the game was lost after Tongfu straight up overextended and got caught 4v5 chasing a nyx. Classic, classic dota, where winning teams throw away leads because they make a poor choice. The fountain hook bought them the 4v5, but Tongfu could have just backed off, waited 50 seconds, and tried again. Four of their heros got caught in the river, if you watch the fight they were just straight up out of position because they had the chase bloodlust.
It's not overpowered, it's awesome. Comparing it to maphaking is fucking retarded. Tongfu made obvious, obvious mistakes to anyone who plays dota (in hindsight, of course, it is hard to call in game, but they should have known better).
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On August 10 2013 22:42 Chronos. wrote:
That Navi vs DK series was one of the most entertaining series I've ever seen in eSports.
The amazing game 1 where Navi had the perfect team composition for Pudge to fit in, and executed it perfectly. Game 2 where Navi seemed to pick another crowd-pleaser with Ursa only to be destroyed by Anti-Mage. Then when they picked Pudge game 3, without a Mirana, I thought it was a bit much and that they should have just picked a solid lineup and tried to outplay them. A game and a half of them losing though made the EPIC fountain hook / alch comeback even more amazing.
I literally stood up from my chair and yelled at least 3 times that game... it was so intense.
Tongfu*
Other than that, yeah, sick picks by Na'Vi, sick show.
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Just finished watching Navi vs TongFu. What a shit series, TongFu got pretty much cheesed out of the Winner Bracket.
Navi touching the bottom of the barrel.
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On August 10 2013 22:46 BallinWitStalin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 22:30 xyzz wrote:On August 10 2013 22:19 AM wrote:
Hah, I wonder if they will finally "fix" the fountain hook after that. I think it is the first time it was done successfuly in pro match and not just some pro match but TI3. I was under the impression that it was ignored because everybody thought that it was impractical in real match anyway. It will be interesting to see if/how community and Valve will react to that. That's the only explanation I can think of. All the people arguing that abusing bugs is acceptable as long abusing them is challenging need to take some courses in logical thinking. These people often even continue by supposedly cleverly remarking that it's possible to ban heroes. But why would you even balance heroes at all, or fix any bugs (and there's been a lot of other bug abuses that have been fixed) whatsoever, if your approach to the game is that the more exploits and imbalance the better (and that the draft ban is the only required answer to them) and that for example finding design flaws and bugs and learning how to exploit them in competitive games is synonymous to being creative? Lastly I would like to know how Dota 2 as a game would be worse off if the fountain hook was removed? The slippery slope fallacy that gets thrown around in this thread is ludicrous, somehow suggesting that requesting the fountain hook to be fixed is the same as requesting every powerful hero or strategy to be removed. I find the same type of conversation in SC2 maphacking threads, where the deniers are trying to find endless amounts of other possible explanations (no matter how small the chance) for the strange behaviour, other than the obvious one. TongFu could've theoretically done this or that, but if the winning team themselves admit that they won because of the succesful fountain hooks, why are the fanboys here screaming otherwise? It's like saying marines were overpowered in broodwar, because when microed right they can kill lurkers, which cost way more resources. Sure, it's possible, but it's fucking HARD.
You just had to come up with the worst analogy imaginable. I've never seen any threads with outraged people calling Marine micro cheap and pathetic, asking the bug exploit called Marine micro to be fixed, and other people saying that exploiting the bug of Marine micro is acceptable because it's hard.
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so sad about fnatic 
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On August 10 2013 22:57 BlitzerSC wrote:
Just finished watching Navi vs TongFu. What a shit series, TongFu got pretty much cheesed out of the Winner Bracket.
Navi touching the bottom of the barrel.
Lol. So salty XD
Na'vi outplayed TongFu, deal with it.
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On August 10 2013 22:30 xyzz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 22:19 AM wrote:
Hah, I wonder if they will finally "fix" the fountain hook after that. I think it is the first time it was done successfuly in pro match and not just some pro match but TI3. I was under the impression that it was ignored because everybody thought that it was impractical in real match anyway. It will be interesting to see if/how community and Valve will react to that. That's the only explanation I can think of. All the people arguing that abusing bugs is acceptable as long abusing them is challenging need to take some courses in logical thinking. These people often even continue by supposedly cleverly remarking that it's possible to ban heroes. But why would you even balance heroes at all, or fix any bugs (and there's been a lot of other bug abuses that have been fixed) whatsoever, if your approach to the game is that the more exploits and imbalance the better (and that the draft ban is the only required answer to them) and that for example finding design flaws and bugs and learning how to exploit them in competitive games is synonymous to being creative? Lastly I would like to know how Dota 2 as a game would be worse off if the fountain hook was removed? The slippery slope fallacy that gets thrown around in this thread is ludicrous, somehow suggesting that requesting the fountain hook to be fixed is the same as requesting every powerful hero or strategy to be removed. I find the same type of conversation in SC2 maphacking threads, where the deniers are trying to find endless amounts of other possible explanations (no matter how small the chance) for the strange behaviour, other than the obvious one. TongFu could've theoretically done this or that, but if the winning team themselves admit that they won because of the succesful fountain hooks, why are the fanboys here screaming otherwise?
It's a mechanic in the game. RP + skewer + empower has won countless games that seemed over cause pushing uphill vs mag is really fucking hard; also a mechanic in the game. The fountain hook mechanic just happens to take much more coordination (in case ppl weren't aware, for some of the hooks it was kky providing vision on his invis nyx, funn1k force staffing dendi forward after puppey uses send back) and used heroes in a way that's not obvious just from reading skill descriptions.
It just feels like everyone's complaining about it being "cheap" because pudge should only be allowed to do what his skills dictate. He should only be able to hook to himself and then hold the person still while doing a bit of damage. That would ruin the game if it was designed like this, just like if they patched tiny's combo when they found out it does double avalanche damage if done correctly. I'm sure we all wanted to watch a DK vs iG again where the team ahead thinks "well, we're ahead, we can just keep farming till they push and keep our advantage" and the team behind thinks "well, we're behind, we can just keep farming till they push our high ground so we have defender's advantage since we shouldn't fight at all except 5 man smokes some times when we're behind in gold and xp".
Also, I find it hilarious Loda is complaining about this. The team that 5 man tp'd to rosh, the text book definition of cheese (if scouted/found out then you're at a huge disadvantage, otherwise you have a huge advantage). Oh, that's part of the game though? Well so is fountain hooking. When deciding whether mechanics should stay in a game of course cheesiness and how game changing it is should be taken into account, but so should other factors. And guess what? Tiny doing 800 dmg burst before most supports had 600 hp was considered ridiculously cheesy at the time too.
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EPT
