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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
On June 24 2014 22:57 Erasme wrote: more often that not, you just want to catch that one hero in a chrono. Going wombocombo is bad dunno, i feel like dropping a macropyre or disruptor ulti inside chrono is pretty solid lol | ||
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HighTimeDotA
Canada1412 Posts
On June 25 2014 00:12 BluemoonSC wrote: dunno, i feel like dropping a macropyre or disruptor ulti inside chrono is pretty solid lol deathward + chronosphere = wubwubwubwubwub | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On June 25 2014 01:05 HighTimeDotA wrote: deathward + chronosphere = wubwubwubwubwub Add midnight pulse with follow-up black-hole? | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On June 25 2014 00:12 BluemoonSC wrote: dunno, i feel like dropping a macropyre or disruptor ulti inside chrono is pretty solid lol I think Erasme's point wasn't that "its bad because its ineffective". Its that "relying on a wombocombo with Chronosphere to win you games is bad because its unreliable". I'd tend to agree with that viewpoint for a variety of reasons. If you're relying on your combo being the big killer in teamfights then you can't fight without that combo up. It means you have to keep your combo heroes together if there's likely to be a fight anywhere. It also means you have to rely on your enemy screwing up for you to be able to combo enough of them properly to win the fight. For pubs its better to build carries in such a way that you're not relying on a huge coordinated combo with other players on the team; because you typically can't rely on them. Combos can be awesome but unless you're stacking and Skyping with people to do it then you're going to run into problems if its the way you're relying on teamfighting until Void can get strong enough to just kill everything himself. | ||
CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
Shadow Shaman moved from B -> A (mistake, don’t know why he was there) Skywrath Mage moved from B -> A (undervalued Ancient Seal amp, it’s ridiculous) Pugna moved from D to B (underrated damage output + Nether Ward control) Naga Siren (support) moved from C to B (underrated Song setup, Ensnare CC) Phoenix moved from N/A to S (tentative) Legion Commander moved from S -> A (overrated Overwhelming Odds radius and downplayed issues with Duel + Chrono interaction, may be moved lower) Alchemist moved from B -> C (overrated the damage of Spray + Concoction combo) Dazzle moved from B -> C (overrated the utility of Shallow Grave) Morphling moved from B -> C (underestimated farming issues unless Void is offlane) Treant Protector moved from B -> C (put too much value on Overgrowth) Dragon Knight moved from B to C (typical item builds do less damage than initially thought) Move Up? – Death Prophet, Kunkka, Tinker, Brewmaster, Crystal Maiden, Warlock Move Down? – Visage, Bane, Outworld Devourer, Nyx Assassin Should Sven/Windranger/Meepo/Venge be separated according to role like Naga? | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
I don't think an entire tier list of allies is nearly as important as a game plan and decent overall composition  DP and Kunkka are the nuts. Brew is very meh imo. CM sounds amazing but you basically need a blink on her in order to reliably get more than 1-2s of her ult off on chrono'd units. Warlock is probably decent for bonds + upheaval but I don't think he's nuts. Sven doesn't play well with void as support or carry unless ur void is offlane but even then he doesn't offer anything uniquely good unless u chrono guys on the edge which simply isn't reliable. Tiny's huge chopping range and propensity to have a wisp to take him anywhere you want to chrono somebody may deserve mention. Dunno what tier visage is but he's the real deal don't drop him. Bane handles not 1 but 2 heroes that you couldn't chrono, I think he's legit as well even if his "blow them up in chrono" applications are limited. OD is nothing special with void, nyx is also underwhelming. Meepo always sucks, WR's always legit, etc. No need to split them out imo. | ||
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On June 25 2014 06:46 Sn0_Man wrote: Sunder certainly does, no idea about reflection. I assume Reflection follows the same rules as other illusions: moves if casted on Void, doesn't move if casted on anyone else. TB should still be bad though. Farm-heavy, Meta CD is too long to sync up with Chrono, and can't cast Reflection on allies. On June 25 2014 06:46 Sn0_Man wrote:I don't think an entire tier list of allies is nearly as important as a game plan and decent overall composition I made the tier list out of dissatisfaction with other guides. Most of them emphasize damage in Chrono as the primary goal in choosing supports/mids, yet you almost never see that at the competitive level. When Newbee ran mid Void last week they almost always picked Enchantress/Lion as supports; last summer, you would never see EG pick Void without Dark Seer; SEA teams love running Prophet as the offlaner. These heroes don't have massive AoE combos but clearly they're being valued for something else. So I try to account for adding utility to Void outside Chrono, CC outside Chrono, strength in the laning phase, farm distribution, how they deal with the standard hero counters, how they scale throughout the game, if they make good Chronos/spell combos easier to land and more punishing when it happens, etc. The list itself is not that meaningful. Yeah, if you only run the "best of the best" the overall team will be pretty garbage. On June 25 2014 06:46 Sn0_Man wrote: DP and Kunkka are the nuts. Brew is very meh imo. CM sounds amazing but you basically need a blink on her in order to reliably get more than 1-2s of her ult off on chrono'd units. Warlock is probably decent for bonds + upheaval but I don't think he's nuts. Ghost Ship is the best. I'm surprised Chinese teams haven't tried the combination more often. I feel like DP and Doom have the same issue. Both are heroes who can build incredibly tanky and want to run around the battlefield causing chaos. If you land a really good Chrono, Doom uses his ulti on someone else and has nothing else to do. If you land a bad Chrono Doom uses his ulti on someone else and chases after the rest of the team. DP has it way better with Exorcism but it still has to be a really good Chrono to make her stay still. Brew-Void doesn't work well together but pro teams keep running it. I think they're treating it like the old QoP picks: get levels and go nuts to indirectly protect the carry. Freezing Field damage is fickle, especially when opponents are standing still. I'm wondering if the ice explosions are distributed in a truly random way or if they're somehow manipulable. Otherwise her contribution is too unreliable IMO. Immolation from the Golems works in Chrono and they stack. On June 25 2014 06:46 Sn0_Man wrote:Sven doesn't play well with void as support or carry unless ur void is offlane but even then he doesn't offer anything uniquely good unless u chrono guys on the edge which simply isn't reliable. Tiny's huge chopping range and propensity to have a wisp to take him anywhere you want to chrono somebody may deserve mention. I think both support and carry Sven are terrible in terms of synergy, but are both equally bad? Or is one worse enough to warrant a separate category? Support Sven would still have Warcry and Hammer except he wouldn't demand much farm compared to his counterpart. On June 25 2014 06:46 Sn0_Man wrote:Dunno what tier visage is but he's the real deal don't drop him. Bane handles not 1 but 2 heroes that you couldn't chrono, I think he's legit as well even if his "blow them up in chrono" applications are limited. OD is nothing special with void, nyx is also underwhelming. Meepo always sucks, WR's always legit, etc. No need to split them out imo. I put Visage as A. He used to be S when Familiars moved inside Chrono. Soul Assumption feels like a double-edged sword though. If your team can get off the big combos he cleans up; if they're interrupted, Visage is largely useless outside of Familiar damage at the edge. Not even OD ultimate? Essence Shift is also one of the few things that makes Refresher on Void a consistent pickup. Okay | ||
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deadmau
960 Posts
And it's hard to disagree or agree with your tier sometimes, it's just a bit much too think about xD | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On June 25 2014 01:09 -Celestial- wrote: I think Erasme's point wasn't that "its bad because its ineffective". Its that "relying on a wombocombo with Chronosphere to win you games is bad because its unreliable". I'd tend to agree with that viewpoint for a variety of reasons. If you're relying on your combo being the big killer in teamfights then you can't fight without that combo up. It means you have to keep your combo heroes together if there's likely to be a fight anywhere. It also means you have to rely on your enemy screwing up for you to be able to combo enough of them properly to win the fight. For pubs its better to build carries in such a way that you're not relying on a huge coordinated combo with other players on the team; because you typically can't rely on them. Combos can be awesome but unless you're stacking and Skyping with people to do it then you're going to run into problems if its the way you're relying on teamfighting until Void can get strong enough to just kill everything himself. Pretty mch yeah. I hate relying on combo because it needs to be perfect to actually works. You need to be the one initiating, you need to land all your spells perfectly and you need to not be interrupted by anything. And I believe top tier teams agree with me, which is why you see void picked as a mid or as an offlane. He will be picked to kill the #1 priority in teamfight or he's used to gank with low cd spells like sunstrike or aa blast | ||
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Laserist
Turkey4269 Posts
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deadmau
960 Posts
On July 01 2014 05:28 Laserist wrote: I think he is the most imbalanced hero at the moment for me. I cant remember a game I win against him I used to counter him with TA, no so effective anymore with the recent buffs. | ||
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NeoRussia
Canada381 Posts
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Kreb
4834 Posts
On July 01 2014 18:36 NeoRussia wrote: Anti-mage is pretty dam strong against void, probably my #1 pick against him. Easilly outfarm the void, jump him with abyssal before he can chrono or eblade and blow him up. Most of the time I see that matchup its the opposite. Void needs MoM or maybe MoM + another 2-2.5k item and the AM is food. With assistance he needs less. AMs never seem to reach Abyssal state unless his team carries him through the early/midgame by doing well 4v5. Void is one of the very few heroes an AM needs to be very careful of running into. 1v1 he can either beat or flee from just about anything else. | ||
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Laserist
Turkey4269 Posts
On July 01 2014 18:36 NeoRussia wrote: Anti-mage is pretty dam strong against void, probably my #1 pick against him. Easilly outfarm the void, jump him with abyssal before he can chrono or eblade and blow him up. Void come online waaay earlier because of chrono and support from team. AM escalate the farm after BF but void will have a field day all game long with 4 min midas + IAS+ dps items while AM tries to farm jungle etc.. There is a small time window where AM can do something ahead of void but eventually void's overall teamfight/tanking presence and dps potential will let him handle AM pretty easily. It depends on who initiates better but void has a clear advantage on that either. 4v5 prevails early to mid game and free farm void will handle late game by himself. | ||
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HighTimeDotA
Canada1412 Posts
but am needs about 15-20mins farm to roflstomp everyone and cant really fight effectively before that if his team is feeding. void can help and turn fights better than am early on and is a safer bet in solo q. | ||
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LAZYLAMB8995
United Kingdom3 Posts
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On July 02 2014 02:08 HighTimeDotA wrote: if you have similar skilled supports/mids/off on both teams am would easily outcarry void. but am needs about 15-20mins farm to roflstomp everyone and cant really fight effectively before that if his team is feeding. void can help and turn fights better than am early on and is a safer bet in solo q. that is a too general statement. what does "outcarry" even mean in your case? fv is an initiator and disabler while am is more of a splitpusher and skirmisher. it really comes down to if team fv can find a strong initiaton or if team am outpushes and outskirmishes team fv. void can enable winning situations in a much more straightforward way than am which is why he is a safer bet in soloq (by a significant margin apparently). am's damage being higher and utility being lower makes him more team reliant. does "easily outcarry" include the massive teamfight utility void brings to the table and the fact that am cannot reliably duel an equally farmed void because a timelock chain at the wrong moment would turn the fight for void in favor? | ||
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ref4
2933 Posts
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Comeh
United States18918 Posts
On July 02 2014 05:14 ref4 wrote: AM is easily one of the weakest carries....they only reason he's ever picked is he comes online faster and can end the game before 45 mins. Past that a 6-slotted AM gets eaten alive by a 6-slotted Tiny, Morphling, Void etc. Morphling pretty much gets shit on by AM in every aspect of realistic play, however. | ||
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HighTimeDotA
Canada1412 Posts
am has weak early game but due to the fact he has a low BAT, fast ms, and blink he will farm faster and become out of control much sooner than any other carry. the problem in pubs is that people dont understand how to play with an am as teammate. | ||
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