EPT[Hero] Spectre - Page 32
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ChunderBoy
3242 Posts
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
On October 17 2015 11:38 ChunderBoy wrote: tl;dr??? follow ur heart dont let society hold u back | ||
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woojaekeem
United States524 Posts
if u find urself spending more time hitting neuts than actually having enough urn charges/being involved in teamfights, then you shouldn't have picked spectre in the first place | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 17 2015 13:20 woojaekeem wrote: urn is better on this hero than morbid for sustain if u find urself spending more time hitting neuts than actually having enough urn charges/being involved in teamfights, then you shouldn't have picked spectre in the first place Except that sometimes the game just goes the way that disallows to collect enough urn charges to calmly farm neutrals (you need to get urn charge or more every minute for that). Morbid easily does. | ||
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ADSRelease
United States37 Posts
On October 17 2015 13:20 woojaekeem wrote: urn is better on this hero than morbid for sustain if u find urself spending more time hitting neuts than actually having enough urn charges/being involved in teamfights, then you shouldn't have picked spectre in the first place why do you say that? at least with the way i play spectre, im either jungle farming or ganking in between laning and late game. i don't find myself to be very crucial to a teamfight other than to assure a kill or clean up after an engagement. | ||
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woojaekeem
United States524 Posts
On October 17 2015 14:58 lolfail9001 wrote: Except that sometimes the game just goes the way that disallows to collect enough urn charges to calmly farm neutrals (you need to get urn charge or more every minute for that). Morbid easily does. yea and if that happens 9/10 times u just hsouldn't ahve picked spectrein the first place she isn't the hero for afk rr sit in the jungle cut waves farm games | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
On October 17 2015 11:20 Birdie wrote: In terms of RTZ's build, I'm sure the Morbid Mask is primarily so that he can sustain his HP while farming, far more so than gaining HP while he fights. And in terms of the statistics I provided, I consider the number of hits you pull off in a fight (and hence EHP gained from lifesteal) to be an unknowable number, which is why I didn't include any lifesteal builds in detail. It's certainly not the most optimal fighting item to be getting, and I HIGHLY doubt that's why RTZ gets it. Because you seem particularly worried about skill build, I can redo the table but with a particular skill build. Which skill build would you have me do? 1-4-2-1 perhaps? I was using 0-0-0-0 previously. In terms of objective data, I don't think there is any value in recalculating DPS because the increased DPS from desolate and dispersion is dependent on a variety of in-game factors. But I can re-calculate the EHP. It is worth mentioning that increased dispersion is percent-based, and as such the winners in each category for EHP should not change. Same for if it were possibly to calculate DPS with desolate. This is why I didn't bother including skill-build; assuming every item build used the same skill build, there would be no change in the relative position of each item build. Only the total numbers would change, not the winner in each category. In terms of Movement speed translating into more survivability, that is also intangible as it is dependent on in-game factors. I can give the raw movement speed numbers but it is for each person to decide themselves whether they value movement speed, DPS, or EHP most (and gold cost). As noted in my post, it is assumed that you will be carrying a quelling blade over a TP scroll and using ultimate to travel into fights. As quelling blade is a farming item (and more or less ubiquitous), I didn't bother factoring a second creep-DPS into the equation. That is easily calculated by hand with the given DPS numbers. I should note that you seem to be looking for an "optimal build". While I am not trying to argue any particular point with my data, I would say that you should consider every game what is necessary for winning that game, rather than always trying to use your "optimal build". If a game requires you to get Vanguard, Treads, Wand, Vit Booster because there is so much fighting going on that it is impossible for you to farm a radiance without dying, then do that. If you have absolute free farm, skip tank items and go straight for radiance! My post merely points out gold cost and what you achieve with your gold; it doesn't make any decisions for you. It doesn't factor in the likelihood of an item being sold later, nor the amount you are fighting, nor the intangible item benefits, nor teammates or any other uncontrollable factors. It is just the hard numbers. Yeah obviously morbid is for jungle sustain, but my point is since if you're not using your mana on dagger to farm you're going straight from the jungle to the teamfight via your ult, so maintaining full hp at all times the way his build does ensures he's always ready for a fight, whereas any other build may need to tp fountain to restore hp before joining the fight or accept that they're entering the fight without 100% hp. Therefore if they're using an item slot for an hp item but not entering a fight with 100% hp they are not making the most of that item. All of those builds will lose hp in the jungle except someone whose urn gets a large excess of charges except for arteezy's build. And he specifically maintains 100% hp by using lifesteal in conjunction with first max dispersion and pms damage block. I'm worried about skill build because it changes how your item build performs. Arteezy's build without max dispersion would not keep 100% hp at all times. That doesn't mean his item build would inherently fail without that skill build, but it would change the complete dynamic involved. I don't do the same skill build for every item build, so comparing different item builds with the same skill build won't necessarily capture their differences accurately. I would for sure not make the most out of my item build if I were to run it with Arteezy's skill build. Gauging the worth of a build is about predicting its average potential effectiveness-- an item build in conjunction with a skill build it lacks synergy with will have on average a lower potential effectiveness. You say factoring in the skill build won't change your data in a meaningful way, but that's because you put so many important variables into the "intangible" category and ignore them. So while yes if you ignore most of the game then by definition if you change any of the things you're ignoring you won't change your results, but that doesn't mean they aren't relevant. Quelling over TP is ok only if you aren't using Dagger to farm and if you aren't taking much damage in the jungle, because then you guarantee you have 100% mana at all times to ensure you can ult and dagger 1-2 times in a fight/chase. If you're using mana while farming and/or are getting low hp then you have to have a TP to visit fountain just before ulting to ensure you can make the most of the ult (unless it's literally for a haunt illusion to lasthit a hero). The issue is you don't have perfect information, and how the laning phase goes doesn't necessarily educate your item choices. Just because most builds are viable doesn't mean most builds are the best options in a vacuum, and while every single build has at least one scenario where it's the no-shit best option, most builds are not applicable to most scenarios. Now obviously you don't play in a vacuum, but since you have imperfect knowledge you have to make a choice based on your limited information. Furthermore you should try and choose an item build that fits into how you have skilled or how you will have skilled upon specific item timings. There isn't one optimum build, but for sure there are a limited number of almost-ideal cookie cutter builds from which you adapt. Just because there isn't an optimum build doesn't mean you shouldn't try and find the best solutions to most scenarios. The biggest factor which prompted me to explore and settle on my old build was that in scenarios where I had free-farm in my safelane and saved up to 2k+ gold on boots and opted to try and rush Relic asap instead of building fighting/durability items is that very frequently the map became entirely off limits shortly after, such that my actual Radiance timing was no better than if I had made other items first. Alternatively the Radiance may have come a minute or two sooner, but that I had vastly inferior levels, and/or that my team was in a far inferior position as result. Trying to rush out the Radiance was significantly reducing the number of viable opportunities I had available to ult on. I played around with many different early and midgame items and settled on what I've described before, for the reasons described before. So I'm trying to help other players not fall into the same trap. There's a similar discussion using antimage as an example in the "carry tips" thread that's currently ongoing, talking about how the best way to put early freefarm to your advantage is to build self-sustaining items instead of trying to force-rush a battlefury. I think similar principles are in play with spectre. I'm not sure if we're arguing anything btw. Is there something I'm saying that you blatantly disagree with? On October 17 2015 13:20 woojaekeem wrote: urn is better on this hero than morbid for sustain if u find urself spending more time hitting neuts than actually having enough urn charges/being involved in teamfights, then you shouldn't have picked spectre in the first place Urn is an unreliable form of overall sustain. The arteezy build capitalizes on very nearly just as many ult opportunities as more aggressive item builds, it simply lacks the extreme chasing capacity. You aren't only afk-farming with morbid mask-- you're just using it to guarantee you're at 100% hp at all times. You're using urn charges on enemies to secure kills you can't chase down, on allies to allow them to stay and push (since they inevitably push harder than you before radiance), on yourself after escaping death, and on yourself with excess charges when you're safely farming but taking damage from a nasty camp (or after a series of camps just prior to your next ult to make yourself combat-ready). Therefore farming sustain is only a luxury for excess urn charges, if you even amass them. Other than in scenarios where your team is carrying dominating without you, you shouldn't be getting a huge number of charges. The only other way you would be collecting many charges well-after a fight is if you're using them extremely selfishly, in which case you've really fucked your team by preventing them (most likely a support) from buying one (and making the most of it). Your ult is on a 2 minute cd, so if we assume a fight and the ensuing chase take 20 seconds total, and it takes another 10 seconds to get to a farm source, you have 90 seconds to farm before the next ult. That means farming is taking up at least 3 times as much time as fighting. If you're forced to use fountain to regen after buying the urn it's worthless, so it had better be sustaining you for all 120 of those seconds. I think scenarios where that actually turns out to happen are unicorn-rare. On October 17 2015 11:38 ChunderBoy wrote: tl;dr??? tl;dr is I like these two builds much more than everything else he wrote, but don't know which is better on average: 4-2-1-1 PMS quelling phase aquila yasha radiance manta; the aquila is possibly skippable, and the skill build might need to be changed with the new patch (probably favouring desolate?) 2-2-4-1 PMS quelling wand treads morbid radiance manta; the skill build might need to be changed On October 17 2015 15:27 woojaekeem wrote: yea and if that happens 9/10 times u just hsouldn't ahve picked spectrein the first place she isn't the hero for afk rr sit in the jungle cut waves farm games When your ult isn't up you should be farming. When your ult is up you should be looking for advantageous fights. It's that simple. Just because there's a moment in the game where you can't immediately start some shit when your ult is off cd doesn't mean the pick is bad. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6229 Posts
Conciseness and clarity matters sometimes. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
I just have put a lot of time and thought into Spectre, and don't want the nuances I've found to be overlooked in oversimplifications. If I thought I knew everything I would just write a guide, which would be thorough but with more effort towards achieving a concise product. But I don't yet, so I'm hoping I can learn from forum discussion in conjunction with the games I have time to play until I feel confident enough to finish a guide. If there's actual interest I can try and break down my big posts into a series of tl;drs, but if I'm talking to the wall no matter what I won't waste my time until I'm confident I can put out a quality guide. I appreciate the honesty though. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 17 2015 15:27 woojaekeem wrote: yea and if that happens 9/10 times u just hsouldn't ahve picked spectrein the first place she isn't the hero for afk rr sit in the jungle cut waves farm games Once again, she is not the kind of hero to dive towers for prolonged periods of time either, so her urn charges collection might just be limited to getting those with reality in random ganks/teamfights. And that might easily not be enough to farm, especially if you want to have some urn charges for offensive use as well. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
assume enemy team won't build mkb for awhile, i.e. no mkb component by the time i buy solar crest. good or not good? I feel solar crest combined with rad actually give the most EHP. but no dispersion dmg though, that really sucks... | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
Admittedly I've never gone medallion on her before, so I dunno how effective it is at improving farm rate. It provides fewer total benefits than most other cheap item slots so it's probably not worth it as an initial purchase. If it was then maybe you could better justify finishing the solar crest. The other issue though is if you make vanguard you really shouldn't spend your money on anything after finishing it until you get radiance; so if you went medallion first the vanguard doesn't really help you make use of the medallion, but if you went vanguard first you shouldn't make the medallion after. tl;dr not good | ||
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Birdie
New Zealand4438 Posts
You say factoring in the skill build won't change your data in a meaningful way, but that's because you put so many important variables into the "intangible" category and ignore them. I don't ignore them, but their value is not measurable in a discrete manner, so there is no point in placing them in the rest of the table in quite the same manner. I still note them so people can be aware. My table is not meant to convince anyone of anything, but rather present the information in a form that people can easily peruse and decide for themselves what they want. The data I have presented is as limited as I want it, and that's fine. It shows nothing more nor less than what it shows, and conclusions to be drawn from it are up to the person who is observing it. It is not an attack on your build nor a defence of any of the others, but mere observation. | ||
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ChunderBoy
3242 Posts
or u can get urn if u think ure gonna get charges i wudnt go morbid mask over roh ever | ||
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ChunderBoy
3242 Posts
On October 17 2015 17:02 evanthebouncy! wrote: vangurad -> rad -> solar crest assume enemy team won't build mkb for awhile, i.e. no mkb component by the time i buy solar crest. good or not good? I feel solar crest combined with rad actually give the most EHP. but no dispersion dmg though, that really sucks... no coz just a radiance doesnt force ppl into mkbs if u get radiance and butterfly or solarcrest then u force them into mkbs which sucks for u, u also need a manta somewhere early coz its the counter to silver edge and a silver edged spectre is a dead spectre | ||
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Buckyman
1364 Posts
Wand-Phase-PMS-Drums: (phase activated, drums NOT activated) 4105 gold - 1518 Physical EHP, 1365 Magical EHP, 550 mana, 1.7 ManaRegen, 105 DPS, 439 Movement speed Intangible: 20 damage block @ 100% chance, Drums aura for allies | ||
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Wala.Revolution
7582 Posts
I think a mango (maybe even 2?!) is pretty good to shurg off some casual harass, and emergency mana can come in handy trying to get that extra kill or escaping a gank. Think you're slot-limited early though. TP/boots/urn + basi(aquila)/stick(wand)/pms/quelling so 2 mangos are hard to fit in. | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
On October 17 2015 23:46 ChunderBoy wrote: no coz just a radiance doesnt force ppl into mkbs if u get radiance and butterfly or solarcrest then u force them into mkbs which sucks for u, u also need a manta somewhere early coz its the counter to silver edge and a silver edged spectre is a dead spectre Manta is pretty important on this hero for a bazillion reasons too. Would you ever pick up a bkb instead of manta ? Or is the item just too damn good on her? | ||
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Birdie
New Zealand4438 Posts
On October 17 2015 23:49 Buckyman wrote: Missing data point: Wand-Phase-PMS-Drums: (phase activated, drums NOT activated) 4105 gold - 1518 Physical EHP, 1365 Magical EHP, 550 mana, 1.7 ManaRegen, 105 DPS, 439 Movement speed Intangible: 20 damage block @ 100% chance, Drums aura for allies Fair enough, I was mostly putting up the data for in-fight information, during which you're going to be able to have drums active on, but for farming the above is useful information. I actually quite like the look of that particular combo if I'm going to spend in the 4k realm before radiance. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
On October 18 2015 05:55 BluemoonSC wrote: Manta is pretty important on this hero for a bazillion reasons too. Would you ever pick up a bkb instead of manta ? Or is the item just too damn good on her? Instead of manta? Never. In addition to manta? Situationally maybe. | ||
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