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On June 12 2015 09:25 evanthebouncy! wrote:
i see. I usually only haunt on 5% hero and kill with 1 hit and go back to farming.
But i could see dispersion is not worth maxing over stats, I think I'll get more stats.
The problem with maxing dagger is you're sitting around 300-ish mana at lvl 6, 7, and your ult+dagger is a whooping 310 mana. That leaves you with very little room to play with. If someone gank you and you try to escape with dagger, you are basically manaless for the team fight (60+ more mana used for the 2 daggers).
I think the point is you will take dispersion/stats just so you can survive and farm well, and the rest should be into dagger / desolate as mana allows. I could live with that.
How is the MoM build though? I have a feeling it's quite strong tbh
Yeah Dagger costs a lot of mana, but you are using both your spells so rarely that you will have mana most of the time(unless you are trying to kill offlaner a lot with your allies). If you use Dagger to escape than that's it, you won't have enough mana for Haunt + Dagger for the next minute or so, 30 mana won't really make a difference and you are certainly doing more with that 160 level 4 Dagger than with 130 mana level 1 Dagger.
If you are going Treads it's even better since switching it to +9 int gives you a lot of mana. Urn and/or Aquila helps you with mana regen and Aquila also gives you some int. Try maxing Dagger, you will see that if you use it correctly(not spamming it or using it on a hero that you aren't sure you could get a kill) that you will always have enough mana for it.
About MoM, I've tried it few times and I got a mixed feeling about it.
On one hand MoM speeds up your farm and you are scarier in the early game, you can safely clear jungle, and when you get Radiance you don't need few more minutes to farm something else, you can fight already.
On the other hand it costs 2000 and if you don't try you don't know if you would be able to rush Radiance straight away, and maybe you would end up better with Radiance rush. 100% AS and 17% MS is great, but 30% more damage taken can easily screw you over and you have to be sure when you are chasing somebody or when jumping with Haunt on somebody, that he won't be able to turn back and blow you up in 3 seconds.
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On June 12 2015 02:52 Rawr wrote:
I think spectre is my new favorite hero. I just have a big problem when deciding what items to go in the laning phase. I feel like I want a poor man's shield, a quelling blade, an orb of venom, urn/ring of aquila. How do I decide what to get and what to skip?
Also, do people still go vanguard? When would it be a good idea?
Radiance seems to be the most popular first big item, but I often have problems choosing the item after it. The options seem to be manta/diffusal/heart/maybe skadi.
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Winning a game where you had a really rough early game is the best. I had a game where I had 10 cs after 10 minutes, in a 1v2 lane. Then we won the game anyway because they never managed to finish the game and I got very farmed later.
After radiance you should go manta or heart. Manta gives you survivability while increasing how fast you can farm but isn't as survivable as a heart. Manta also lets you isolate someone in a team fight and obliterate them. So you need to decide if you need all the HP from heart immediately or if the manta first is better. You can also go vit booster --> Manta --> finish heart which is pretty common too. I think diffusal is stupid since it makes you a glass cannon. A manta gives you higher kill potential on individual targets, while the diffusal increases your damage for your haunt. Manta also lets you farm faster with your illusions.
Generally, I find manta is a better option when you are even/ahead and heart is better when they can burst you/kill you easily and are behind. If you have freedom to farm, the Manta increases your farming efficiency by quite a lot.
skadi doesn't really give you sustain like a heart does so it's probably not ideal. You can weave out of fights with your dagger really easily and utilize the heart regen, skadi doesn't give you that utility.
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On June 12 2015 05:38 Terrorbladder wrote:
Meh, I still see no merit in leveling Dagger past 1 early when each level makes it cost 10 additional mana, and Spectre is one of the hero with bad early health and damage. 1/4/4/1 is the way I usually go, until level 15 when I begin to level Haunt normally again.
People who max dispersion make me want to punch myself in the face It's not just 5% scaling per level. Its 5% more for you, and 5% less for them. 1 level of dispersion early if you feel you absolutely need it. You need to max desolate/dagger to get you kills in the early/mid game team fights. It's how you compensate for Spectre's trash farming ability pre radiance.
And yeah, late game double haunt with a refresher is dirty as fuck.
Oh and you never want vanguard but sometimes in difficult games you need it. It's good vs something like undying or meepo, or people who want GTFO of your lane because you can ignore most harass and also transition into the jungle. The jungling is still slow, but you won't really lose HP.
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Has anyone tried to go stats-heavy on her early on? I feel like even with urn she's super squishy and tbh her abilites arent that great early on, because you dont deal that much damage either way. She doesnt has that much killing potential and her base hp is freaking terrible.
I mean max dagger max desolate is a no brainer when your team is snowballing like crazy, but there are lots of spectre games where allies favorite job seems to be feeding the enemy and the enemies favorite job is camping in your jungle or on your safelane. More hp could allow her to splitpush more safely, because dagger is actually a decent escape skill if she is allowed to use it.
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On June 17 2015 12:14 Blackfeather wrote:
Has anyone tried to go stats-heavy on her early on? I feel like even with urn she's super squishy and tbh her abilites arent that great early on, because you dont deal that much damage either way. She doesnt has that much killing potential and her base hp is freaking terrible.
I mean max dagger max desolate is a no brainer when your team is snowballing like crazy, but there are lots of spectre games where allies favorite job seems to be feeding the enemy and the enemies favorite job is camping in your jungle or on your safelane. More hp could allow her to splitpush more safely, because dagger is actually a decent escape skill if she is allowed to use it.
I've played the 1/1/1 with MoM but it's hard to say when it's good. If they have lots of killing potential early and you can't farm the lane safely it is pretty good imo but if your team actually does well i'd rather take the max dagger/desolate with urn and get em kills as well.
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Stats heavy sounds stupid given that if you have a shit lane, you're likely not to achieve much with stats anyway. And in that lane I would simply hope for experience, and try to recover with maxed desolate haunt kills.
And yes 2+ points in dispersion before level 12 is stupid.
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Dagger also scales decently if you look at the numbers. +50 damage and +4% your movespeed, -4% enemy movespeed per level. Add that to the fact that level 1 dagger is kind of terrible, dealing almost no damage and only an 8% movespeed increase with 8% slow, you kind of do want to max it. With desolate of course for actual damage.
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I've tried MoM multiple times and the more I try it the more I am unsatisfied with it. Your killing potential isn't that great with MoM if you don't have Dagger and Desolate maxed, and when you turn it on you are really squishy.
I still feel that Treads/Phase into PMS/Aquila/Urn/Bracer(and maybe even casual vitality/point booster if you think that you lack survivability) into Radiance is the best way to go, at least it was quite successful for me so far.
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On June 17 2015 13:39 DucK- wrote:
Stats heavy sounds stupid given that if you have a shit lane, you're likely not to achieve much with stats anyway. And in that lane I would simply hope for experience, and try to recover with maxed desolate haunt kills.
And yes 2+ points in dispersion before level 12 is stupid.
The point is more that if you have a hard time and are underleveled desolate wont do much anyways, because you wont get many hits out and most of the gold is aoe-gold, which means that you need to commit to salvage your early game. Also if you are underleveled and the enemies supports have a good game, it's not that unlikely that they just throw a spell at your illu and get rid of it.
Dispersion scales terribly in the early game, which leaves dagger as the only useful skill for leveling purposes in the scenario that you are loosing two of three lanes (which isnt that unlikely considering that spectre's laning presence is abysmal and low-medium lvl pubs have duals most of the time).
With early stats and maybe mom you might be able to splitpush and farm their jungle if they start to occupy yours, health is after all a deciding factor in how far you can push out the lane.
On June 17 2015 12:54 Daray wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 12:14 Blackfeather wrote:
Has anyone tried to go stats-heavy on her early on? I feel like even with urn she's super squishy and tbh her abilites arent that great early on, because you dont deal that much damage either way. She doesnt has that much killing potential and her base hp is freaking terrible.
I mean max dagger max desolate is a no brainer when your team is snowballing like crazy, but there are lots of spectre games where allies favorite job seems to be feeding the enemy and the enemies favorite job is camping in your jungle or on your safelane. More hp could allow her to splitpush more safely, because dagger is actually a decent escape skill if she is allowed to use it. I've played the 1/1/1 with MoM but it's hard to say when it's good. If they have lots of killing potential early and you can't farm the lane safely it is pretty good imo but if your team actually does well i'd rather take the max dagger/desolate with urn and get em kills as well.
Thanks that was pretty much what i was looking for.
On June 17 2015 19:01 Ramiz1989 wrote:
I've tried MoM multiple times and the more I try it the more I am unsatisfied with it. Your killing potential isn't that great with MoM if you don't have Dagger and Desolate maxed, and when you turn it on you are really squishy.
I still feel that Treads/Phase into PMS/Aquila/Urn/Bracer(and maybe even casual vitality/point booster if you think that you lack survivability) into Radiance is the best way to go, at least it was quite successful for me so far.
I think the main selling point with mom is that you can farm the jungle, not the chasing/damage potential. I had multiple games where I was stuck at 3.4k gold when the enemies started camping our safelane with their safelane supports as well as their offlane and their mid went hiding. With mom you can rotate to the jungle where you suspect less enemy activity and farm. As weird as that may sound, I think MoM is the item you get when the enemies are snowballing and they dont have a super good in-your-face-chainstun-initiation, it's not an early fighting item like on void or jugg.
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I have started playing spectre against bots to learn the hero and I don't understand how you farm with the hero. There are no way to spam out a wave and no real wave clear or jungling skills. Is all the farm accumulated just by farming lane or am i missing some tricks?
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On June 29 2015 19:38 manicmessiah wrote:
I have started playing spectre against bots to learn the hero and I don't understand how you farm with the hero. There are no way to spam out a wave and no real wave clear or jungling skills. Is all the farm accumulated just by farming lane or am i missing some tricks?
Spectre is a pretty bad farmer before radiance indeed. Of course this doesn't mean that you can't farm jungle camps, it's just relatively slow. But you should still do it if there is no lane farm currently available. In the jungle it's good to use his spectral dagger so that you finish off one camp with it and also hit the next camp you are farming to maximize the damage and minimize the time you spend walking between the camps.
But the benefit of Spectre is that you can be quietly sitting on a lane farming and still participate in fights. You should always be aware of what is going on elsewhere when your ultimate is up as your damage output isn't even too bad with desolate (and dagger which can allow you to hit a target) and you can often easily take out some people who are low and trying to get away from the fight. Also unlike a lot of other carries Spectre doesn't really need to be ahead in net worth to get to a stage where he is very powerful.
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Learn how to abuse radiance to pull/stack multiple camps forth and back to reduce the damage you take from jungling while simultaneously speeding up farm. Potentially buy a casual morbid mask. Outside of that it's really all down to decision making.
It's not the type of hero that easily speeds up to 12+ cs/min, but it also doesn't need to.
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Spectre's the trademark 'be behind 10k gold and in a winning position' hero. Just think of the misery of farming before radiance as your penitence for how much you're going to own afterwards.
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On June 29 2015 23:13 Orome wrote:
Spectre's the trademark 'be behind 10k gold and in a winning position' hero. Just think of the misery of farming before radiance as your penitence for how much you're going to own afterwards.
This. Have had games where i get my radiance as late as 25min but the second i do we pretty much start winning the game. Difference is pretty damn big,
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Yeah spec gets a lot of her gold from ksing with ult.
RoH helps your sustain for jungle forays and builds into refresher (or vanguard if you have to...).
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I can understand that PTreads are probably better for Spectre than Phase boots, at least when it comes to AS.. what I can't stand though is not having enough MS to secure kills. Just personal preference or are PTs really much better than Phase?
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i think most people prefer phase, either is fine i think
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On June 29 2015 19:38 manicmessiah wrote:
I have started playing spectre against bots to learn the hero and I don't understand how you farm with the hero. There are no way to spam out a wave and no real wave clear or jungling skills. Is all the farm accumulated just by farming lane or am i missing some tricks?
Max dagger first, buy aquila (maybe soulring works, I haven't tried), pms, and quelling, and go hit creeps. Use dagger to push lane if you can farm it and go jungle as is possible. Stack jungle camps as is possible, and aim dagger to hit multiple camps. Especially if you haven't stacked the camp you can finish it before dagger is gone, and phase through trees to get to the next camp quickly.
Try and fight every ult cd. Let your team know 20s out to group and look for fights. Tp home about 10s before ult comes up or before fight whenever your team or a gank is ready to heal up. When you're healthy ult and kill the easiest targets. Don't be afraid to keep fighting as you get close to finishing relic, as you need to maintain your fight tempo to get close to an acceptable relic timing.
Level dispersion after you max desolate instead of another point in ult (until radiance is done). Don't fucking level stats, as poor scaling as extra levels in dispersion has, further levels in the skill far outweigh the benefits of 2 agl, 38 hp, and 2/7 armour. Dispersion lets you jungle longer without wasting gold on a ring of health or vanguard, and lets you tank nukes and tower shots in fights to finish kills-- both of which are important sources of pre-radiance income.
I prefer phase, but treads aren't horrible, especially if you're stylistically/preferentially prone to abandoning radiance timing for diffusal blade (or their heroes make early diffusal really attractive, e.g. wk or medusa). If you make treads be sure to tread swap every spell you cast, with the exception of in-fountain ults-- that +9 agl could allow an extra desolate swing on your illusions-- a big deal.
I find building a casual yasha improves my income without compromising relic timing. If you're really suffering it can make a manta-first major item if diffusal doesn't look game-swingingly redeeming. Even with really good starts I find I usually don't get relic sooner by skipping the yasha. Maybe treads openings get relic sooner, I dunno yet. You do have to be careful with dagger use on phase-- always need mana for either fountain tps prior to ulting or dagger and/or ult use for escape purposes. Tread swapping makes your mana go a long way, though you probably need orb of venom to finish pre-relic kills without phase active.
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just keep in mind your full combo is 310 mana (160 dagger 150 haunt)
you definitely need to kill steal with ults on every cd to get a good item timing. desolate against solo offlane is actually fairly strong. If you just tp from base and have fountain regen, it is great to dagger the offlane and chase, you will guaranteed to chip away 60% of his HP.
I'll have to try the yasha first, it seems pretty smooth item to build and I really detest naked relic, even after urn/tread I think it is quite weak.
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On June 17 2015 19:01 Ramiz1989 wrote:
I've tried MoM multiple times and the more I try it the more I am unsatisfied with it. Your killing potential isn't that great with MoM if you don't have Dagger and Desolate maxed, and when you turn it on you are really squishy.
I still feel that Treads/Phase into PMS/Aquila/Urn/Bracer(and maybe even casual vitality/point booster if you think that you lack survivability) into Radiance is the best way to go, at least it was quite successful for me so far.
the point of mom isnt more about killing potential, its about ability to farm the jungle fast.
i only go mom if my team is completely unable to win fights and if any item i get is unable to change that. amongst many other conditions
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EPT
