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Belisarius
Australia6229 Posts
On July 09 2015 04:01 govie wrote: You don't like it, fine. Just don't make false statements about why I posted it or why I played the build.  Govie, your whole reason for existence on these boards seems to be theorycrafting about inefficient builds in an attempt to be original. It's not a false statement to anyone else. | ||
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Buckyman
1364 Posts
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GentleDrill
United Kingdom672 Posts
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
I don't make diffusal on Spectre unless: 1. I'm fighting a Medusa or Wraith King, both of whose strengths are derived from mana (Mana Shield on Medusa, and Reincarnation on Wraith King). Might be there are some other heroes worth building diffusal for, but those are the big ones I can think of off the top of my head. 2. I cannot possibly afford Relic, and my team is on track for losing the game if I change nothing else. In these scenarios I will still try and save for Ultimate Orb to finish Manta first, but if my team is still getting destroyed after Manta and I for sure cannot save for Relic, I'll dump gold into Diffusal Blade components as is possible if a buy-back haunt probably won't salvage the game. 3. I got a 20 minute Radiance or earlier (after Yasha), my Manta came 4-5 minutes later, so I recognize I'm on track for 30 minute Refresher, purchase that, and only then will I build Diffusal to coincide with my Refresher coming off cooldown after the first double ult for the purpose of making the second double ult as strong as possible. I don't recommend ever delaying Manta for Diffusal, except in dire scenarios that involve the factors of both 1. and 2. mentioned above. Normally Heart or Skadi follows Manta (which follows Radiance). Rarely you might build BKB here instead vs just stupid amounts of control/magic damage. Govie your math looks very wrong. I don't know how you think refresher atos provides comparable auto-attack dps to manta diffusal. Flat DPS formula on auto attacks is: (base hero damage range + agl + increased-damage + on-hit effects) / ((1 + IAS/100) / BAT (where BAT = 1.7)). This is before reductions from armour. Remember that Desolate is pure damage and isn't reduced by armour or magic resistance. Radiance burn is reduced by magic resistance. Manaburn damage to hp is reduced by armour. You're simplifying too many factors and trying to compare numbers from different reference frames-- it's not intellectually sound. I'm not redoing your math right now, but if you want to win the argument via data you should use more faithful calculations and compare both average but ideal scenarios as well as average but unideal scenarios for your calculations. I.e. pick some armour value you think reasonable for targets, pick a level for Spectre to be and remember her agl growth, use 25% magic resistance, and assume desolate hits apply for an ideal scenario. Then redo the math where desolate doesn't hit. Then redo the math involving magic immunity (which blocks desolate, manaburn, and radiance burn). I am absolutely ok with omitting dispersion damage, because that's too complicated. I'm not going to argue the merits of Refresher: I only use it with the build I described above with the timing I described above. I think it's a mistake to build the item in any worse scenarios, and even sometimes a mistake to build it even in those conditions. I'm not sure if Dead9 is disagreeing with me or not, but his last post seemed to be based on a misunderstanding of the build I purport anyway. I don't claim to know the best item to follow Refresher: remember that I already have Manta before I build Refresher, and that my point in building diffusal after was just to make the double-ult stronger by making the item that most obviously effects illusions in the game. Maybe Heart/Skadi is better, I dunno, I don't encounter scenarios I feel comfortable making Refresher in often enough to have experimented with the options. Intuition tells me that if you're snowballing into Refresher that adding mana burn for the duration of your double ult and having an improved capacity to slow down people attempting to run home instead of TP is the best option however. I've yet to see an explanation for why Atos has any merit. Not blowing TP before a fight to ensure a fountain trip (if you cannot count on your team to give you any mana for some reason) seems a much cheaper method of ensuring you can use a double-ult if you've built refresher. I mentioned that in terms of the utility the diffusal blade has higher synergy with Spectre's kit and comparable utility, but as explained in this post I'm not arguing in favour of building diffusal in most scenarios. For the gold I would rather have an item that actually fits the hero and scenario. TL;DR I generally advocate: Quelling, Poor Man's Shield, Phase/Treads, Ring of Aquila, Yasha (14-16 minutes usually), Radiance (22-24 minutes usually), Manta Style, Heart/Skadi, Butterfly, Abyssal Blade or with sick snowball can get behind: Quelling, Poor Man's Shield, Phase/Treads, Ring of Aquila, Yasha, Radiance (20 or fewer minutes), Manta Style (24-26 minutes), Refresher (30 minutes), Diffusal Blade, Butterfly/Skadi/Heart where x/y/z are in descending order of preference | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
Anyway atos is an item that is not terrible on any hero. So its not the worst thing to have, especially if you already have some core items. | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
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Gowerly
United Kingdom916 Posts
Before radi buff I always wanted diffusal over radiance, but now I think radiance gives much better utility as pressing R now gives everyone engaged in a fight on your team more survivability. | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On July 09 2015 15:13 DucK- wrote: Atos so you have enough mana for refresh ult? Why not work towards skadi instead. Anyway atos is an item that is not terrible on any hero. So its not the worst thing to have, especially if you already have some core items. You don't even need Atos or Skadi for that, if you went for 3-4 points in stats around level 14-15 while having Refresher + Radiance, you will have mana for double ulti. Wish more people tried out Refresher rush build to see how awesome it is. It is not a build for every game as it loses a lot of value when enemy team has a lot of tanks or are grouped together and are pushing a lot with Mek and some heroes like WD or Necrophos. | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
On July 09 2015 19:33 Ramiz1989 wrote: You don't even need Atos or Skadi for that, if you went for 3-4 points in stats around level 14-15 while having Refresher + Radiance, you will have mana for double ulti. Wish more people tried out Refresher rush build to see how awesome it is. It is not a build for every game as it loses a lot of value when enemy team has a lot of tanks or are grouped together and are pushing a lot with Mek and some heroes like WD or Necrophos. I was questioning his insistence on getting atos. And that's my build  and yea I figured out the last part the hard way. Single handily loss the game against a lesh pugna 5man push lineup. If I just tanked up after timely radiance, they wouldn't have stood a chance. Instead they run and then mek/urn whenever I double haunt, and I can't fight after because nukes blow me up. | ||
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
On July 09 2015 04:01 govie wrote: You don't like it, fine. Just don't make false statements about why I posted it or why I played the build. I think he said you did it to look original because the other option is way more offensive. | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On July 09 2015 20:15 DucK- wrote: I was questioning his insistence on getting atos. And that's my build and yea I figured out the last part the hard way. Single handily loss the game against a lesh pugna 5man push lineup. If I just tanked up after timely radiance, they wouldn't have stood a chance. Instead they run and then mek/urn whenever I double haunt, and I can't fight after because nukes blow me up.there are some instances where u will want that bkb on spectre | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
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Sceptre
Canada130 Posts
PMS + Aquila + Phase and Yasha is solid, but I feel like it isn't enough to tip the scales in fights if your team is already behind. If you don't get a couple of haunt kills and the lane farm isn't going well I struggle to get out of the midgame with a good timing on my next big item, especially when my team mates aren't coordinated enough to fight around the haunt cool down. Vanguard makes you very threatening to the enemy supports and you can opt to go for a diffusal if you don't recover enough to get a timely radiance. I think in a perfect world you rush the Radiance as fast as possible (Duck's brown boots, RoH, QB build). But you need A LOT of access to farm in order to ensure a strong Radiance timing, and if you die even once it sets you behind SO much. | ||
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Aceace
Turkey1305 Posts
Even then VG put Spectre on a weird position. You want to fight with your VG but your downtime (Haunt on cd) your farm speed gets slower. Generally when i cannot rush radiance i go for PT (170hp is really nice instead of going full VG)>OoV>Aquila>Yasha. But after that i rely on my team and go for radi. (You will always want to carry a radi even at 60 min mark.) | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
You don't get Vanguard to be a damage threat. You get Vanguard to set up the rest of your team to be damage threats if the teamcomp is right for it. If you need to do damage yourself, that's where Aquila/Drums/Yasha-based builds come into play. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
On July 14 2015 05:56 Sceptre wrote: So I've been tooling around lately with Spectre, playing a lot of games with Nightmarjoo's Yasha build, and I think there's a good discussion to be had about the different 'combat' builds. For instance, if you already know you want to commit to a lot of early game fights, what is the downside of going straight to Vanguard? It isn't expensive and it lets you jungle when you can't find lane farm. PMS + Aquila + Phase and Yasha is solid, but I feel like it isn't enough to tip the scales in fights if your team is already behind. If you don't get a couple of haunt kills and the lane farm isn't going well I struggle to get out of the midgame with a good timing on my next big item, especially when my team mates aren't coordinated enough to fight around the haunt cool down. Vanguard makes you very threatening to the enemy supports and you can opt to go for a diffusal if you don't recover enough to get a timely radiance. I think in a perfect world you rush the Radiance as fast as possible (Duck's brown boots, RoH, QB build). But you need A LOT of access to farm in order to ensure a strong Radiance timing, and if you die even once it sets you behind SO much. I find Yasha with the timing and progression I've described to be highly effective in most scenarios, albeit for different reasons. When you're already farming well and/or getting a lot of kills the Yasha is a nice snowball item-- it increases your farm rate allowing you to capitalize on the space you or your team has made, it makes your ult stronger by directly buffing your haunt illusions 3 different ways, it helps you finish kills by 1. letting you simply catch the enemy and kill them and 2. by giving you the confidence to chase otherwise sketchy kills because you have the movement speed and armour to get out of more bullshit, and it helps you farm and/or more around with a greater level of impunity due to the improved survivability the ms and armour confer. When you're in a neutral position the Yasha helps you in all of the ways above, but with a stress on improved farming capacity to get more gold between ults. Trying to save gold at this point requires you to be able to survive the improved levels, damage, and most importantly the increased drive out of frustration to hunt you down of the enemy with laning phase equipment. It's possible, but requires you to play safer, which results in kill opportunities being lost, and your team being required to pick up more slack (which they may not be able to do, given that we're in a neutral scenario). When you and/or your team are getting fucked down the Yasha helps you in all of the ways above, but with a stress on increased survivability and adaptation. Spectre naturally plays somewhat scrappily as she phases through the world and hops around the map. The Yasha helps her do that more, which can easily be the difference between life and death. The difference between Vanguard and Yasha in this point (since we're not even considering trying to save for Relic in this scenario) is being behind with a Yasha means you're 3k from an item that might be able to help you out (Manta), but being behind with a Vanguard means you're 5k from a useful item. There are just too few scenarios where a Diffusal first major item is going to be the come-back mechanism, starting from behind or otherwise. Even if Vanguard Diffusal is somehow an appropriate progression in this scenario you're left 5k behind Manta, and now are strongly encouraged to give up the Radiance altogether (whereas going Manta first still transitions fine going back for the Radiance). There are only a few scenarios where I build Vanguard at all, and thus so far I've never felt compelled to build it before the Yasha. Those scenarios are always specific to both the enemy composition and their rate of snowball. So if the enemy has for example a Storm Spirit getting fed out of his goddamn mind who went Orchid first and can literally just zip on you anytime he wants and kill you during the silence of Orchid or the Orchid-active burst immediately following the silence-- yeah, you're probably going to want a Vanguard. I've felt similarly about a snowballing Tinker before, or maybe a Bounty Hunter who somehow got every single Track kill in the world, or a Slark doing terrible terrible Slark things to your team, etc. In all of these the Vanguard alone isn't even necessarily the thing that's keeping you alive, but the Vanguard following a Yasha that gives you a wonderful mix of movement speed, armour, health, damage block, and health regen. Going Vanguard first might work in all of these scenarios, but makes it harder to turn things around or find opportunities to catch up. The Vanguard is a form of surrender-- telling the other team you're just trying to stay alive for the purpose of stalling the game, that you're probably only gaining passive gold, with the alternative being not even staying alive to collect that welfare. You can have scenarios where it feels like you might need the Vanguard, but you pick up the Yasha first and the game goes surprisingly well after that leading to a swift Manta or Relic after. You're not going to have a scenario where you went Vanguard first and suddenly found yourself actually getting kills or winning fights. And as Yango said, it doesn't improve your farm rate, it just lets you more safely sustain a low rate of farm (such as actually being able to leave highground for a single wave before running back up). Lastly, the Vanguard first puts you in a scenario where your ult is no more useful now than it was during the laning phase. This sucks because your ult is ultimately your biggest gold-reaping tool, your biggest comeback mechanism. No, Vanguard doesn't make you threatening, even to supports. It makes you a big cute teddy bear no one can bear to harm. | ||
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Sceptre
Canada130 Posts
I'm curious, what is your argument for taking the Ring of Aquila? If you are TP'ing home before most fights, the mana regen seems superfluous. While dagger can be a great farming tool, it is sufficiently mana-expensive that you can't spam it and the aquila seems like it would only let you cast an extra 3-4 daggers in the midgame. I usually buy it because stats are nice (and the extra bit of push), but games where I don't pick it up seem to go alright. | ||
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the bear jew
United States3674 Posts
On July 15 2015 03:53 Sceptre wrote: Thanks for the incredibly detailed response. I was getting hung up on the fact that Yasha only gives you an extra 16 damage, but it's easy to see how the attack and movement speed bonuses are great for Spectre. I'm curious, what is your argument for taking the Ring of Aquila? If you are TP'ing home before most fights, the mana regen seems superfluous. While dagger can be a great farming tool, it is sufficiently mana-expensive that you can't spam it and the aquila seems like it would only let you cast an extra 3-4 daggers in the midgame. I usually buy it because stats are nice (and the extra bit of push), but games where I don't pick it up seem to go alright. It's nice early stats, cost efficient. If you are going mostly naked radiance rush, you want some item to help you tank up. Aquilla if you want to afk farm more with quelling blade and treads, urn if you want to fight more. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
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