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Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 57

Forum Index > Dota 2 Strategy
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TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
December 29 2011 06:01 GMT
#1121
Mek should take priority unless someone else on your team is already getting one. Then skip it and get something else.
Moderator
Fruscainte
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
4596 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-29 06:05:00
December 29 2011 06:04 GMT
#1122
Hm, alright. Chill. Guess I found my new favorite hero then.

Now I'm going to ask a VERY broad question as I go to sleep. How do I into Windrunner? Heard she was a decent semi-carry/pusher, and I'm yet to learn anyone who fits that role yet and she seems like something fun to play.
thOr6136
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Slovenia1775 Posts
December 29 2011 08:58 GMT
#1123
Can someone explain me why is blink dagger so good on Puck, why is it the core item in his build? I mean, its alway good to blink but you already have orb so idk. Can someone explain me a little bit more in detail?
Fishgle
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States2174 Posts
December 29 2011 09:14 GMT
#1124
What is a good timing for Radiance on weaver? Is it ok to temporarily skip boots for a faster sacred relic, since my ability gives max movespeed anyway?
aka ChillyGonzalo / GnozL
EtherealBlade
Profile Joined August 2010
660 Posts
December 29 2011 09:41 GMT
#1125
On December 29 2011 15:04 Fruscainte wrote:
Hm, alright. Chill. Guess I found my new favorite hero then.

Now I'm going to ask a VERY broad question as I go to sleep. How do I into Windrunner? Heard she was a decent semi-carry/pusher, and I'm yet to learn anyone who fits that role yet and she seems like something fun to play.


You can get almost any item that will make your physical dps feared late game if you choose to carry, but I think it's generally agreed that WR absolutely needs manareg early game. You can escape any ganks with just level 1 windrun, and your stun and nuke are extremely useful early game. If your team is full of hard carries then buy support stuff later, if you want the kills for yourself get something like a Mjollnir (fun!), Orchid or Buriza.

On December 29 2011 17:58 thOr6136 wrote:
Can someone explain me why is blink dagger so good on Puck, why is it the core item in his build? I mean, its alway good to blink but you already have orb so idk. Can someone explain me a little bit more in detail?


Once you get phase shift you're practically invulnerable with a dagger. Unlike many other low hp supports, Puck can't be ganked if he's got blink, and more importantly it allows you to initiate with your ult and silence (orb is slow and everyone can dodge it). I feel it's a little overrated on him but it's definitely worth getting.


On December 29 2011 18:14 Fishgle wrote:
What is a good timing for Radiance on weaver? Is it ok to temporarily skip boots for a faster sacred relic, since my ability gives max movespeed anyway?


It's fine IMO, but you really need to have a freefarm lane and get that relic really quick - way before 20 minutes - to justify for that. Consumables like tango and clarity work well for weaver when farming for a relic.
Weaver with early radiance -> very hard for the enemy to stop.
Weaver that got nothing and farmed radiance in 35 mins -> worthless and his team probably lost already because of this.
Dead9
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States4725 Posts
December 29 2011 12:39 GMT
#1126
u don't need mana regen on wr, she has a pretty good pool and none of her spells cost that much mana
mek, pipe, push stick, sheep, sometimes jango are all standard pickups after wand, phase, and maybe rob
blink is okay for setting up shackles and chasing/escaping
orchid, mkb, thunderhammer, rapier, crit, lothars, etc if you want to carry, but she tends to taper off very quickly
wr is a strong laner early on and a versatile utility hero later on. it's hard to place her in in any particular role, but generally the goal is to wreck your lane (or survive 1v2/1v3) and then be pretty useful via mek/pipe/push stick/3.5s stun/being really annoying to kill

skipping boots works okay on weaver, tho it makes positioning yourself a bit of a pain
if you're going treads/hood/vit booster/wand before radiance, as a general guideline ~35 is okay, ~30 is pretty good, ~25 and you're in a pretty big lead
but depending on the level of the game and team composition it can fluctuate quite a bit
PassiveAce
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States18076 Posts
December 29 2011 15:20 GMT
#1127
On December 29 2011 15:04 Fruscainte wrote:
Hm, alright. Chill. Guess I found my new favorite hero then.

Now I'm going to ask a VERY broad question as I go to sleep. How do I into Windrunner? Heard she was a decent semi-carry/pusher, and I'm yet to learn anyone who fits that role yet and she seems like something fun to play.


Quoting Epic post for relevance and Epicness.
+ Show Spoiler +

On December 26 2011 10:50 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 26 2011 08:30 Kenpachi wrote:
windrunner is so much fun. does anyone have tips on her builds, playstyle etc ?

This is a very broad topic, seeing as Windrunner can be played a lot of ways. I'll try to miniguide what I can, but many others I'm sure will correct me.

General Playstyle: Broadly speaking (and this is extremely broad, as covering the nuances of all the ways to play Windrunner is very hard), you are what, in the words of 2009 could be best translated as a midgame, "tempo-carrying hero". While she does have moderate lategame DPS, particularly when itemized for it, this is ultimately not her forte. As a semi-carry, she excels in the early- and midgame because she has a very dominant laning presence that transitions into a strong map-wide presence, as every aspect of her kit excels in ganks as well as teamfights.

Windrunner is playable in virtually every lane. She is a strong solo, and has reasonable ability to farm even in the long lane (though 1v2s and 1v3s are, as with any hero, quite unforgiving). She also has very reasonable protective/supportive power (600 autoattack range, reasonable base damage, and a stun), so she can also babysit either sidelane.

Skilling: Skilling is very fluid on Windrunner--all of her skills are extremely powerful (as such, you probably shouldn't get stats till all 3 core skills are maxed), and it is important to try and judge which skill is most effective for you at a given point in time. That said, there are a few guidelines to follow:
- You generally take Windrunner or Shackleshot at level 1, and try not to skill until you are sure which one you need. Shackleshot can net you a level 1 FB in the right situations, and Windrunner will let you cheat death. Windrunner is also the king of level 1 exchanges in lane, as 2.5 seconds of total evasion lets you crush people in autoattack trades while also not giving a fuck about creep aggro.
- Have a point in all 3 skills by level 4. They're all good to have at least a rank of.
- Ult is situational and playstyle-dependent. Oftentimes you won't get a single rank of it till the other 3 core skills are maxed. Occasionally, if it happens to let me clean up a tower, I'll get it, but again that's very situational.
- As a semi-carry, I would prioritize Powershot over Shackleshot, maxing Windrunner last. Powershot has very respectable base damage, which is a great asset if you are gaining levels quickly early on.
- As a support, I would prioritize Shackleshot more than I would as a semi-carry, while still maxing Windrunner last. It's hard to suggest ditching Powershot entirely until after Shackle is maxed, but certainly, having 0.75 more stun duration on Shackle is often more useful than +80 damage on Powershot if you're filling a more supportive role.

Items: Oh god, this is going to be a beast to tackle. People build a million fucking things on Windrunner, and it's hard to say they're wrong, again, because of how flexible she is. I'll tackle this as best I can, but I'm 100% sure people will disagree with me.

Starting items - same as starting items you'd expect from other heroes in whatever role you're playing Windrunner in--some combination of consumables/wards/chicken/branches/smoke/etc. as a support, and some combination of consumables/tangoes/mantles as a semi-carry. Even if you're playing a solo, for the love of god buy the chicken if your team needs it.

Bottle, Basilius, Null Talisman, Magic Wand -- stock early-game stuff. Not much to say, as your judgment on these items for other heroes should apply here--get 'em if you need 'em.

Phases vs. Treads -- Usually Phases. The MS boost has a lot of synergy with Windrunner (especially since being able to Windrunner through creeps can both net you kills and save your hide).

Midgame Core -- Lots of people will deviate here, but IMO there are two main approaches to your midgame core: Mekansm/Force Staff/Janggo (usually getting just 2 of the 3), or Orchid Malevolence.

Mek/Force/Janggo uses your early gold to very quickly fill the midgame supportive necessities, while also keeping your own stat gains covered. You probably won't get all 3 of these before moving on (especially since some of your teammates will hopefully cover some bases here), but 2/3 is very reasonable, as none of these items are terribly expensive. They all add substantially to your supportive team-fighting power, while also giving you a very comfortable boost to your own stats. Note that getting a supportive midgame core does not invalidate the possibility of buying damage later.

Orchid Malevolence is your most likely midgame core if you want to be a damage-dealer. You sacrifice the utility/supportive power of Mek/Force/Janggo, and don't get as well-rounded stat gains, but you benefit from the very cost-effective midgame itemization of Oblivion Staves, and get a solid DPS source that synergizes quite well with your hero kit. It's also particularly useful to have against certain heroes that you want the silence against, such as Weaver. I expect this option to get more popular once the 6.73 changes go live also, as the buff to Orchid is fairly significant.

I do not recommend getting Orchid if you are playing a support role, or if the rest of your team is not adequately covering the supportive items (as is the case in the majority of pub games). You can always get damage later, but having Mekansm/Force Staff/Janggo is hugely game-changing for your team, without significantly hurting your personal stats itemization.

Other stuff to get:
Sheepstick, Pipe -- Lategame supportive stuff. Always good to have if your team needs it.
Vanguard, Blademail, BKB, Heart -- (Pipe sort of counts here too) Survivability. Not much to say, get what you feel you need. Linken is hard to recommend right now, as Medallion and Urn fuck with the spellblock's practical usability, but after the 6.73 changes go live, it might be worth using again.
MKB, Mjollnir -- These are usually my damage items of choice. They're cost-effective DPS items that give you a rounded mix of both attack speed and damage. Situationally, I'll consider other stuff, but 90% of the time, one of these 2 end up being the most reasonable choice, IMO.
Gem - Don't forget about gem! Windrunner can be a great hero to bring Gem on, whether as a way to counter an invis hero, or just to de-ward when you're at an advantage.
Call me Marge Simpson cuz I love you homie
Fruscainte
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
4596 Posts
December 29 2011 15:27 GMT
#1128
On December 30 2011 00:20 PassiveAce wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 29 2011 15:04 Fruscainte wrote:
Hm, alright. Chill. Guess I found my new favorite hero then.

Now I'm going to ask a VERY broad question as I go to sleep. How do I into Windrunner? Heard she was a decent semi-carry/pusher, and I'm yet to learn anyone who fits that role yet and she seems like something fun to play.


Quoting Epic post for relevance and Epicness.
+ Show Spoiler +

On December 26 2011 10:50 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 26 2011 08:30 Kenpachi wrote:
windrunner is so much fun. does anyone have tips on her builds, playstyle etc ?

This is a very broad topic, seeing as Windrunner can be played a lot of ways. I'll try to miniguide what I can, but many others I'm sure will correct me.

General Playstyle: Broadly speaking (and this is extremely broad, as covering the nuances of all the ways to play Windrunner is very hard), you are what, in the words of 2009 could be best translated as a midgame, "tempo-carrying hero". While she does have moderate lategame DPS, particularly when itemized for it, this is ultimately not her forte. As a semi-carry, she excels in the early- and midgame because she has a very dominant laning presence that transitions into a strong map-wide presence, as every aspect of her kit excels in ganks as well as teamfights.

Windrunner is playable in virtually every lane. She is a strong solo, and has reasonable ability to farm even in the long lane (though 1v2s and 1v3s are, as with any hero, quite unforgiving). She also has very reasonable protective/supportive power (600 autoattack range, reasonable base damage, and a stun), so she can also babysit either sidelane.

Skilling: Skilling is very fluid on Windrunner--all of her skills are extremely powerful (as such, you probably shouldn't get stats till all 3 core skills are maxed), and it is important to try and judge which skill is most effective for you at a given point in time. That said, there are a few guidelines to follow:
- You generally take Windrunner or Shackleshot at level 1, and try not to skill until you are sure which one you need. Shackleshot can net you a level 1 FB in the right situations, and Windrunner will let you cheat death. Windrunner is also the king of level 1 exchanges in lane, as 2.5 seconds of total evasion lets you crush people in autoattack trades while also not giving a fuck about creep aggro.
- Have a point in all 3 skills by level 4. They're all good to have at least a rank of.
- Ult is situational and playstyle-dependent. Oftentimes you won't get a single rank of it till the other 3 core skills are maxed. Occasionally, if it happens to let me clean up a tower, I'll get it, but again that's very situational.
- As a semi-carry, I would prioritize Powershot over Shackleshot, maxing Windrunner last. Powershot has very respectable base damage, which is a great asset if you are gaining levels quickly early on.
- As a support, I would prioritize Shackleshot more than I would as a semi-carry, while still maxing Windrunner last. It's hard to suggest ditching Powershot entirely until after Shackle is maxed, but certainly, having 0.75 more stun duration on Shackle is often more useful than +80 damage on Powershot if you're filling a more supportive role.

Items: Oh god, this is going to be a beast to tackle. People build a million fucking things on Windrunner, and it's hard to say they're wrong, again, because of how flexible she is. I'll tackle this as best I can, but I'm 100% sure people will disagree with me.

Starting items - same as starting items you'd expect from other heroes in whatever role you're playing Windrunner in--some combination of consumables/wards/chicken/branches/smoke/etc. as a support, and some combination of consumables/tangoes/mantles as a semi-carry. Even if you're playing a solo, for the love of god buy the chicken if your team needs it.

Bottle, Basilius, Null Talisman, Magic Wand -- stock early-game stuff. Not much to say, as your judgment on these items for other heroes should apply here--get 'em if you need 'em.

Phases vs. Treads -- Usually Phases. The MS boost has a lot of synergy with Windrunner (especially since being able to Windrunner through creeps can both net you kills and save your hide).

Midgame Core -- Lots of people will deviate here, but IMO there are two main approaches to your midgame core: Mekansm/Force Staff/Janggo (usually getting just 2 of the 3), or Orchid Malevolence.

Mek/Force/Janggo uses your early gold to very quickly fill the midgame supportive necessities, while also keeping your own stat gains covered. You probably won't get all 3 of these before moving on (especially since some of your teammates will hopefully cover some bases here), but 2/3 is very reasonable, as none of these items are terribly expensive. They all add substantially to your supportive team-fighting power, while also giving you a very comfortable boost to your own stats. Note that getting a supportive midgame core does not invalidate the possibility of buying damage later.

Orchid Malevolence is your most likely midgame core if you want to be a damage-dealer. You sacrifice the utility/supportive power of Mek/Force/Janggo, and don't get as well-rounded stat gains, but you benefit from the very cost-effective midgame itemization of Oblivion Staves, and get a solid DPS source that synergizes quite well with your hero kit. It's also particularly useful to have against certain heroes that you want the silence against, such as Weaver. I expect this option to get more popular once the 6.73 changes go live also, as the buff to Orchid is fairly significant.

I do not recommend getting Orchid if you are playing a support role, or if the rest of your team is not adequately covering the supportive items (as is the case in the majority of pub games). You can always get damage later, but having Mekansm/Force Staff/Janggo is hugely game-changing for your team, without significantly hurting your personal stats itemization.

Other stuff to get:
Sheepstick, Pipe -- Lategame supportive stuff. Always good to have if your team needs it.
Vanguard, Blademail, BKB, Heart -- (Pipe sort of counts here too) Survivability. Not much to say, get what you feel you need. Linken is hard to recommend right now, as Medallion and Urn fuck with the spellblock's practical usability, but after the 6.73 changes go live, it might be worth using again.
MKB, Mjollnir -- These are usually my damage items of choice. They're cost-effective DPS items that give you a rounded mix of both attack speed and damage. Situationally, I'll consider other stuff, but 90% of the time, one of these 2 end up being the most reasonable choice, IMO.
Gem - Don't forget about gem! Windrunner can be a great hero to bring Gem on, whether as a way to counter an invis hero, or just to de-ward when you're at an advantage.


4 PM's and this, all directing me there. Thanks guys
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
December 29 2011 15:57 GMT
#1129
On December 29 2011 18:14 Fishgle wrote:
What is a good timing for Radiance on weaver? Is it ok to temporarily skip boots for a faster sacred relic, since my ability gives max movespeed anyway?

Keep in mind that Treads are actually a very cost-effective boost to your team-fighting power (particularly if you consider that timely swapping between Agi/Str is both a DPS increase as well as a survivability increase). You can skip boots if you're absolutely just getting afk-farm, but if you have to defend towers and go to fights, Treads definitely pull their weight and shouldn't be skipped.
Moderator
Zlasher
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States9129 Posts
December 29 2011 17:07 GMT
#1130
I've read Weaver only needs normal boots before. Qutie frankly I'd like to have treads though, but if you are like, getting early kills, team has early towers, and your farm is through the roof and you're at 3k gold, just farm for the relic and get radiance before you finish any sort of boots. Good timing for it? I mean...it kinda varies since the pace of the game dictates that, as well as if you're stomping the other team or just doing okay or losing.
Follow me: www.twitter.com/zlasher
scorch-
Profile Joined January 2011
United States816 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-29 17:55:55
December 29 2011 17:54 GMT
#1131
There are pro level games where weaver went vanguard/radiance before buying any type of boots. They're not necessary in a lot of situations and 1450 is more than 1/3 of your relic. If you want the extra survivability, a vitality booster is a better use of your gold. Treads don't really improve your farming ability on weaver as your windwalk can be used to last hit pairs or sets of creeps that you would need the IAS provided by treads to last hit on other heroes and your RoB (not treads!) gives you the mana you need for that.

When you buy treads on weaver, the only benefits you are getting in team fights are the IAS and the HP. You get better return on your gold by buying vitality booster because your ult gives you 150-200% of the hp and you (or your team) make more additional attacks because of that hp than because of the IAS you would get on treads.
Mafe
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany5966 Posts
December 29 2011 18:29 GMT
#1132
I think the point with boots on weaver is that whenever you are forced to walk, you will almost everytime use shukuchi. This gives you max movement speed regardless of your normal speed. Also you wont spend much time running around until you have some items; instead you will farm. And attackspeed from treads doesnt matter much when you are lasthitting.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
December 29 2011 20:07 GMT
#1133
On December 30 2011 03:29 Mafe wrote:
I think the point with boots on weaver is that whenever you are forced to walk, you will almost everytime use shukuchi. This gives you max movement speed regardless of your normal speed. Also you wont spend much time running around until you have some items; instead you will farm. And attackspeed from treads doesnt matter much when you are lasthitting.

You are not AM/Void/Spec. You will go to fights, and you will be expected to do damage and put pressure on enemt carries when they farm.

A Weaver trading farm with an AM or Spec will lose the game. You need to win fights/suppress their development, and Treads are an efficient way to itemize toward being able to do that. You don't need them every game that early, but don't plan around skipping them all the time.
Moderator
scorch-
Profile Joined January 2011
United States816 Posts
December 29 2011 20:45 GMT
#1134
On December 30 2011 05:07 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 30 2011 03:29 Mafe wrote:
I think the point with boots on weaver is that whenever you are forced to walk, you will almost everytime use shukuchi. This gives you max movement speed regardless of your normal speed. Also you wont spend much time running around until you have some items; instead you will farm. And attackspeed from treads doesnt matter much when you are lasthitting.

You are not AM/Void/Spec. You will go to fights, and you will be expected to do damage and put pressure on enemt carries when they farm.

A Weaver trading farm with an AM or Spec will lose the game. You need to win fights/suppress their development, and Treads are an efficient way to itemize toward being able to do that. You don't need them every game that early, but don't plan around skipping them all the time.


Weaver's early teamfight presence is based on his skills, not his autoattack. The power of radiance is also based on his skills (constant damage during windwalk and burst with germinate). He doesn't do damage by standing in a fight and autoattacking, which is what treads buff. Are treads a great item? Sure. Are they maximizing your damage output and survivability in a team fight with Weaver? No. If you wanted to max your early teamfight presence on weaver, 3 wraith bands would do that better than treads.
DatsyuK
Profile Joined October 2010
United States28 Posts
December 29 2011 22:45 GMT
#1135
What is a good site to look up builds for a new player?
lozarian
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom1043 Posts
December 29 2011 22:52 GMT
#1136
playdota.com has guides for most heroes. the 30 second guides here by 5-s are pretty good, I know that one of the mods on the PD forums was doing something similar a while back becuase I was helping with them:

http://phoenixdota.com/guides/valstable.html
or
http://www.playdota.com/guides/vals-pretty-guide-to-every-hero

Not sure how old this is - last time I heard from him was about a year ago.
For every battle honour a thousand heroes die alone, unsung, and unremembered.
galtdunn
Profile Joined March 2011
United States977 Posts
December 29 2011 23:15 GMT
#1137
What's the best way to learn how to counter the other team's picks?
I'm pretty comfortable picking almost anyone, but I don't always know who the best pick is and it frustrates me.

How can I learn to pick well?
Currently editing items in the DotA 2 wiki. PM for questions/suggestions.
lozarian
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom1043 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-29 23:27:53
December 29 2011 23:22 GMT
#1138
There are two ways (in general) to counter shit - you either stop them from doing what they want, or go heavy into something that they're weak at.

Within that, there's individual things you can do with individual heroes, but the heroes have to fit into your overarching strategy. So Storm has fun vs QoP, because his blink has no cd, so every time she tries to run, he can still chase. Gondar was used for a while when stealth assassin was buffed out the ass because track was great at keeping him under tabs <- tictacs. Not strategy.

It's just playing, really nothing more than that. Picking the right heroes matters less than people give it credit for - choosing the right strategy, and then executing it well, are far more important most of the time. It's about understanding what the other team want to be doing, and then deciding if you want to compete in that space, or do something else. Old cap used to say "don't try and do what the other team are doing, do something else"
For every battle honour a thousand heroes die alone, unsung, and unremembered.
galtdunn
Profile Joined March 2011
United States977 Posts
December 29 2011 23:30 GMT
#1139
Okay that makes a lot of sense. But what about pub games where there's generally not a focused strategy unless you happen to get a good team who will work together?
Currently editing items in the DotA 2 wiki. PM for questions/suggestions.
lozarian
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom1043 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-29 23:47:08
December 29 2011 23:46 GMT
#1140
Facetious answer? Press random and play whatever the fuck you feel like if the game looks like it's going that badly. More sensible answer: uou look at the other players, decide who is either the weakest or the strongest (use whichever criteria you wish) and decide whether you're going to feed on the weakest, or counter the strongest.

If you want to be a little more helpful to your team - make sure that your team synergy works, make sure that your laning works, make sure that you're not too heavily invested in one type of hero. You have next to no influence on what the potential mouth breathers on your team are picking, so you have to work around them.

If you have a team full of dps, pick an initiatior - preferably one that can gank and/or support, if you have a team full of supports (yeah right) pick a carry. If all you have is push you should probably go for early-mid control (Zeus, NS) and trust the rest of your team to push. If you have two heroes that pretty much demand solo and no opportunity to trilane - grab a jungler. You probably shouldn't take a trilane in a pub with randoms anyway.

Once you've identified what it is that you need, then you decide which of them based on the opposing heroes, and where you will end up laning. So, dota 1, you've identifed that you need an initatior - you have a team full of pure DPS/AoE damage, none of which can solo well, and possibly one support. The opposing team has, say, silencer, vengeful and clockwerk. You're not going to take enigma, because they can stop your initiation with most of their team, tidehunter is a potential depending on your lanes, but you already have a support and should solo - grab magnus. Solid initation, can solo if needs be, amplifes your DPS, can gank.

You can pick holes in everything I've said quite easily, but well, they're more sort of.. guidelines. Arrr.
For every battle honour a thousand heroes die alone, unsung, and unremembered.
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