EPTYou can say that competitive teams overrate Brood, which may very well be true. Doesn't change the fact that Brood is top tier in the current competitive environment which answers what the original question was asking.
Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 30
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lixlix
United States482 Posts
You can say that competitive teams overrate Brood, which may very well be true. Doesn't change the fact that Brood is top tier in the current competitive environment which answers what the original question was asking. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On October 20 2011 08:00 lixlix wrote: out of the 105 heroes in Dota, Broodmother is pretty clearly in the top 20 in terms of usage. That means top tier to me considering there are 10 total bans and 10 total picks per game. You can say that competitive teams overrate Brood, which may very well be true. Doesn't change the fact that Brood is top tier in the current competitive environment which answers what the original question was asking. I am saying she isn't. Top 20 doesn't mean shit, Nerubian was treated like top 10 before people realized how worthless he is. He was never really top 10 and she isn't top 20. Usage doesn't mean shit in this regards. Like I said, just because you see Brood being picked or ban doesn't mean it was an intelligent pick or ban. She's not top 20, I can spit out 20 heroes that people would and should play over her in any aspect. | ||
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lixlix
United States482 Posts
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On October 20 2011 09:11 lixlix wrote: your reading comprehension needs work. Your reasoning needs work, top 20 in usage doesn't mean she's top tier. | ||
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lixlix
United States482 Posts
my answer was "brood is commonly seen in competitive play and occasionally makes the first set of bans". both of which are true statements and can't really be refuted. You then give a long spiel that doesn't really address the question. I even courteously agree that "You can say that competitive teams overrate Brood, which may very well be true." but thats not what the original question was asking. Perhaps top 20 in usage is not a good metric for determining whether a hero is top tier or competitive but its certainly a better metric than "the sole opinions of Judicator". I mean thats essentially what you are saying. Competitive teams may be commonly picking or banning brood but according to Judicator, they are making bad picks and bans. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On October 20 2011 10:01 lixlix wrote: the original question was "is broodmother too weak to be used in competitive play?" my answer was "brood is commonly seen in competitive play and occasionally makes the first set of bans". both of which are true statements and can't really be refuted. You then give a long spiel that doesn't really address the question. I even courteously agree that "You can say that competitive teams overrate Brood, which may very well be true." but thats not what the original question was asking. Perhaps top 20 in usage is not a good metric for determining whether a hero is top tier or competitive but its certainly a better metric than "the sole opinions of Judicator". I mean thats essentially what you are saying. Competitive teams may be commonly picking or banning brood but according to Judicator, they are making bad picks and bans. Hey, you're getting there. Notice when Navi picked Broodmother with Light on Brood for a tourney about 1.5 months ago, they got rolled? Notice how Navi hasn't respected Brood in any of tournaments since then? Then notice how when Artstyle left Navi, his team hasn't respected Brood either? Then notice M5 also started not respecting Brood in their picks? Then realize that those teams are usually innovators for the European scene? Then realize that you want to pretend that you know what you are talking about the state of the DotA game when if fact you don't have a clue? Then realize that other teams have been doing the same, both in Asia and Europe where Brood barely makes it on the ban list (2nd phase) or the picks? Then realize your statement of "overrate Brood" isn't accurate any more as it's more "overrated" than "overrate"? But shit I don't know diddly squat about the state of DotA. I might not watch as many replays as I use to, but I still know what is going on. When Europe's best carry player gets exposed on Brood despite playing a perfect game, people know that hero isn't worth shit. Edit: Just because pro teams do it, doesn't mean it's good, right, correct, whatever you want to call it. Teams thought SF was still good in this version, but we all know how that turned out, same for Sniper out of a tri-lane. Teams take time to adapt or are stubborn, they're just as fallible as the next one. | ||
Excalibur_Z
United States12248 Posts
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backtoback
Canada1276 Posts
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Zlasher
United States9129 Posts
Most reasonable? Win a beta key contest lol... | ||
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therockmanxx
Peru1174 Posts
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ICarrotU
United States254 Posts
On October 20 2011 10:25 Judicator wrote: Hey, you're getting there. Notice when Navi picked Broodmother with Light on Brood for a tourney about 1.5 months ago, they got rolled? Notice how Navi hasn't respected Brood in any of tournaments since then? Then notice how when Artstyle left Navi, his team hasn't respected Brood either? Then notice M5 also started not respecting Brood in their picks? Then realize that those teams are usually innovators for the European scene? Then realize that you want to pretend that you know what you are talking about the state of the DotA game when if fact you don't have a clue? Then realize that other teams have been doing the same, both in Asia and Europe where Brood barely makes it on the ban list (2nd phase) or the picks? Then realize your statement of "overrate Brood" isn't accurate any more as it's more "overrated" than "overrate"? But shit I don't know diddly squat about the state of DotA. I might not watch as many replays as I use to, but I still know what is going on. When Europe's best carry player gets exposed on Brood despite playing a perfect game, people know that hero isn't worth shit. Edit: Just because pro teams do it, doesn't mean it's good, right, correct, whatever you want to call it. Teams thought SF was still good in this version, but we all know how that turned out, same for Sniper out of a tri-lane. Teams take time to adapt or are stubborn, they're just as fallible as the next one. All three teams you named have banned/picked her in the past 3 weeks bud, two minutes of searching found me replays. Na'Vi - http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/51138 DTS (Art's new team) - http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/51621 M5 - http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/51607 She is arguably top 20, I'd so closer to top 30, but I wouldn't say she "isn't worth shit", as you so eloquently put it. Not sure why you turned his simple answer into a debate on how pro teams are stubborn and slow to adapt. | ||
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5-s
United States1674 Posts
On October 21 2011 05:10 ICarrotU wrote: All three teams you named have banned/picked her in the past 3 weeks bud, two minutes of searching found me replays. Na'Vi - http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/51138 DTS (Art's new team) - http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/51621 M5 - http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/51607 She is arguably top 20, I'd so closer to top 30, but I wouldn't say she "isn't worth shit", as you so eloquently put it. Not sure why you turned his simple answer into a debate on how pro teams are stubborn and slow to adapt. I think this is fair analysis. Definitely not an autoban or pick, but one of the best situational heroes. She's quite volatile, but when you're ahead she puts opponents in a deep hole. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On October 21 2011 05:10 ICarrotU wrote: All three teams you named have banned/picked her in the past 3 weeks bud, two minutes of searching found me replays. Na'Vi - http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/51138 DTS (Art's new team) - http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/51621 M5 - http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/51607 She is arguably top 20, I'd so closer to top 30, but I wouldn't say she "isn't worth shit", as you so eloquently put it. Not sure why you turned his simple answer into a debate on how pro teams are stubborn and slow to adapt. Because he implies that just because a top team uses something, then that must mean they know what they're doing and thus usage rates are good indicator of the hero's competitive quality. All 3 teams picking and banning Brood doesn't make her Top 20 or 30. They still don't respect her at all, like I said, NA was picked/ban for a long long time even in the farmfest that was 52, but that doesn't mean he was top 20 or 30. she's literally about middle of the pack. The fact of the matter is still just as 5-s puts it, which is just a win-more hero which isn't all that great considering the other options available to you. | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
On October 21 2011 06:31 Judicator wrote: Because he implies that just because a top team uses something, then that must mean they know what they're doing and thus usage rates are good indicator of the hero's competitive quality. All 3 teams picking and banning Brood doesn't make her Top 20 or 30. They still don't respect her at all, like I said, NA was picked/ban for a long long time even in the farmfest that was 52, but that doesn't mean he was top 20 or 30. she's literally about middle of the pack. The fact of the matter is still just as 5-s puts it, which is just a win-more hero which isn't all that great considering the other options available to you. I'm not sure what your stance is. Is Brood worth shit, like you said before, or one of the best situational heroes, like 5-s said and you seemed to agree with him? They are very diferent things. You disagree she is one of the best heroes (which makes sense), but seem to be overeacting to the oposite side of the discussion to try to prove your point (which doesn't make a lot of sense). Argually top 20 is definatelly not "worth shit". | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
All this goes back to my original statement, she's still worth shit because all of those heroes are just shit in current DotA environment because they just act as a shitty insurance policy rather being the fucking fist that comes bearing down on your ass 30 minutes into the game, they don't dictate the game compared to the popular carries right now and she doesn't scale that well and has issues with timings like I already posted about. You don't go oh we lost cause of this opposing Brood, you go oh we can't win because of this opposing Brood which is a big difference in this version. Do you have any idea how many heroes can put the opposing team in that position without sacking the laning phase? I am also not saying that Brood is arguably top 20, I am saying she is about middle of the pack like 50ish. Nobody wants to play against her just because it's annoying, not because she's game-changing or even dominating. People have this notion that when top teams pick/ban heroes, those heroes must be competitive when that is not always the case. That is what I meant about respecting a certain hero in the ban/picking phase, it goes just beyond simple usage and/or how many times it shows up in the past X days or who's doing it. | ||
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fortheGG
United Kingdom1002 Posts
I am also not saying that Brood is arguably top 20, I am saying she is about middle of the pack like 50ish. Nobody wants to play against her just because it's annoying, not because she's game-changing or even dominating. People have this notion that when top teams pick/ban heroes, those heroes must be competitive when that is not always the case. When top teams pick/ban heroes, its for a reason. Brood isn't just annoying, its a solo farmer that you have to take care of and not just hope your solo out farms. Watch a few brood games and then post. http://dota.replays.net/HeroReplays.aspx?hero=U006 You can search for replays containing any hero ( I can't speak Chinese but still manage to navigate so you should be fine.) | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On October 22 2011 10:38 fortheGG wrote: When top teams pick/ban heroes, its for a reason. Brood isn't just annoying, its a solo farmer that you have to take care of and not just hope your solo out farms. Watch a few brood games and then post. http://dota.replays.net/HeroReplays.aspx?hero=U006 You can search for replays containing any hero ( I can't speak Chinese but still manage to navigate so you should be fine.) ...It's a solo hero that if the game drags out is worthless. She might fit into some mid-game strategies, but I already went over her apparent short falls that most top teams have learned to exploit. You'd think so about the top teams picking/banning for some super deep reason regarding Brood, but it's not that complicated. She's annoying, it's really as simple as that. Just like how people thought NA was some super ganker because top teams picked/banned him for so long when they just didn't want to play against Mana Burn. Does he have the potential to get out of hand just like Brood? Sure. Same goes for a lot of heroes at that and thus making that criteria a poor one to judge the hero's relative worth in this environment. And rofl at solo farmer bit, Weaver/Spec/AM are solo farmers too. All are just as hard to kill, if not harder. If you bring up the she pushes lanes bit, then jokes... | ||
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fortheGG
United Kingdom1002 Posts
On October 23 2011 01:58 Judicator wrote: ...It's a solo hero that if the game drags out is worthless. She might fit into some mid-game strategies, but I already went over her apparent short falls that most top teams have learned to exploit. You'd think so about the top teams picking/banning for some super deep reason regarding Brood, but it's not that complicated. She's annoying, it's really as simple as that. Just like how people thought NA was some super ganker because top teams picked/banned him for so long when they just didn't want to play against Mana Burn. Does he have the potential to get out of hand just like Brood? Sure. Same goes for a lot of heroes at that and thus making that criteria a poor one to judge the hero's relative worth in this environment. And rofl at solo farmer bit, Weaver/Spec/AM are solo farmers too. All are just as hard to kill, if not harder. If you bring up the she pushes lanes bit, then jokes... Since when is an early to mid hero worthless. Brood is all about split pushing and out-laning, it is hard to lane versus a really good brood with a lot of heroes which is why she was such a high pick. What I hope to get across is that it is easier to get ahead with a hero like brood and hence easier to end a game. She's a top pick because it's a hero that is not easy to deal with (not just annoying) as countering brood requires a lot more than countering spec would. Also I can't understand how you think her pushing is weak, there's nothing sub par about having the option to push a lane so hard and be completely safe if warded. And rofl at 'just didn't want to play against Mana Burn', the reason NA is good is his ult. If you think he's about being annoying in a lane and not being forced to gank you really should play more. Mana burn is just for the laning phase and not his ganks. He isn't picked because it does pathetically little versus certain champs as opposed to the fixed damage before. I can see him coming back but I don't see how this has anything to do with brood that doesnt have the same expiration timer in a game. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
Edit: Or make your NA statements that obvious. | ||
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Wrongspeedy
United States1655 Posts
Whats the best way for me to make use of my time tonight without just feeding the whole time? I've looked at Excalibur's posts and those have been somewhat helpful, but I'm dealing with a pretty limited set of time. Should I focus on 1-3 Heroes and try those? Or try more until I find some I'm naturally comfortable playing? I figure it would be awesome to get 10-20 games. | ||
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