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People pick Windrunner in competitive because she is very versatile and can fill most roles. people get mek and force staff early on but I see a lot of games where Windrunner gets Scythe as her next item. sometimes either mek or forcestaff is skipped to rush Scythe depending on need.
The beauty of Windrunner is that she has good attack animation and damage, 600 range, a strong farming nuke that can scout, hard to gank due to windrun, and a very powerful disable if used right. You can solo her, trilane her and she can be pure support or semicarry.
Depending on need, I think Lich is powerful enough where I would often take him over Windrunner but I would often take Windrunner over either Lina or Puck but again its need based.
Windrunner is a stronger laner than Lina or Puck, Windrunner is a bit more useful lategame and Lina has no escape mechanism and her stun is really hard to land. Again though it depends on who else you have on your team but since Windrunner is so versatile, picking her early doesn't reveal your strategy and also there really isn't a hard counter to WR.
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United States12256 Posts
Thanks for the answers, guys. Gave Lion a shot yesterday just in a practice match per some people's recommendations in this thread. He seems pretty strong and I do like his control and nuking power but he's extremely fragile. Lots of times I'll just get ganked by 3-4 heroes at once not even having time to notice that they've swooped down upon me. He doesn't seem to have a lot of creeping/farming power since his normal attack damage and attack speed are pretty low, and the damage on his spike isn't fantastic either, so my guess is he's probably best when paired with another hero or two in a lane.
The game's suggested items for him early on were +Str gauntlets, which I thought was odd considering he's an Int hero, but I suppose he has a virtually spammable mana drain anyway and his normal attack damage is low even when amplified with +Int, so it's best to just get his health pool up so he's able to survive burst. Should I always keep potions on hand with him, or some other item so I have a way to escape beyond spiking/hexing as I run away?
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 12 2011 01:54 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Thanks for the answers, guys. Gave Lion a shot yesterday just in a practice match per some people's recommendations in this thread. He seems pretty strong and I do like his control and nuking power but he's extremely fragile. Lots of times I'll just get ganked by 3-4 heroes at once not even having time to notice that they've swooped down upon me. He doesn't seem to have a lot of creeping/farming power since his normal attack damage and attack speed are pretty low, and the damage on his spike isn't fantastic either, so my guess is he's probably best when paired with another hero or two in a lane.
The game's suggested items for him early on were +Str gauntlets, which I thought was odd considering he's an Int hero, but I suppose he has a virtually spammable mana drain anyway and his normal attack damage is low even when amplified with +Int, so it's best to just get his health pool up so he's able to survive burst. Should I always keep potions on hand with him, or some other item so I have a way to escape beyond spiking/hexing as I run away?
Seems like wards might help prevent the ganking. That and some of the mobility items like a blink dagger or a force staff. But I don't actually play so I will only speculate -_-' (< I still very happy for you sir).
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Map awareness and spacing. Lion's nerf really dropped him from good to mediocre. Keep in mind that you move slow as hell. Keep in mind that your Hex is better than your Stun, and keep in mind that you can sit on your stun until you can hit more than 1 person. Keep in mind that if you are getting jumped by 3 or 4 heroes, you are playing some terrible players and just hope your team isn't as dumb as they are.
Lions that get STR items and Mana Drain suck in the first place, I only really picked up 1 level if I needed to hose image-based heroes (drain effects kill images with 1 tick). You are wrong about his animation and damage, so you just need to learn how to hit.
His HP is bad, but that is why you need to watch your HP and manage your range. You really shouldn't be farming all that much in the first place, your mid game is where you do all your damage and then you switch into a more supporting role rather than controlling role.
Ack plays a mean Lion, so maybe he can give you more.
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Lion is extremely fragile and will not survive a gank from 3-4 heroes but then again most heroes don't survive a gank from 3-4 heroes.
Str gauntlets aren't bad on him since it gives him a bit of extra hp and you can always make gauntlets in to URN of Shadows, which is decent on him. Since he has no real health regen and he is a ganker, Urn gives him a bit more survivability and mana regen as well as the ability to regen health and stay in the field after fights. it depends on what your teammates and the other team picks though.
typically you want to solo Lion mid and try to aim for magic wand, bottle, boots before level 6. don't start with bottle, magic stick, or boots, have your chicken ferry it to you once you farm them. once you hit 6, gank either of the side lanes and communicate with your teammates. Before then, aim your impale in such a way that it harrases the enemy hero and kills some creeps. Ward the ramps so you see ganks coming and allows you to see which side the Rune spawned.
in the midgame, blink dagger, force staff, euls are all decent on him. blink dagger is very offensive item though so I would not recommend for beginner. force staff also takes micro but is more defensive since it doesn't get disabled by hero damage.
other possible midgame items are jango if your team doesn't already have a jango carrier (makes lion move a bit faster, gives some decent stats), charges are very useful.
Alternatively, if your early game went very well, you can just get an ultimate orb and try to rush a Scythe.
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Canada2068 Posts
On October 12 2011 02:23 Judicator wrote:
Map awareness and spacing. Lion's nerf really dropped him from good to mediocre. Keep in mind that you move slow as hell. Keep in mind that your Hex is better than your Stun, and keep in mind that you can sit on your stun until you can hit more than 1 person. Keep in mind that if you are getting jumped by 3 or 4 heroes, you are playing some terrible players and just hope your team isn't as dumb as they are.
When was Lion last nerfed? It might be wrong, but PlayDota changelog compilation says 6.60.
Aside from that, pretty much what Judicator and others said. You should be ganking a lot (esp. when your ulti is off cooldown) and not farming so much as to let them set up a 3-4 hero gank on you.
Luminous does a commentary where he follows around EHOME.Dai's Lion (arguably the best Lion player in the world) for the whole game. Worth taking a look if you want to play a really effective Lion.
Link
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Pick leoric. Same stun, 2 lives.
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How does giving out items work?
I am currently watching DeMoN's stream and his friend p33n just gave him a bottle.
Can you give any item to your teammates or specific ones?
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On October 12 2011 10:20 iloveroo wrote:
How does giving out items work?
I am currently watching DeMoN's stream and his friend p33n just gave him a bottle.
Can you give any item to your teammates or specific ones?
You can give most items to your teammates (iirc only rapier, quelling blade and agh on certain heroes don't work) but in most tournaments you're automatically DQ if you buy items (ie. GGnet vs Ends, gosucup 3) and give them to a teammate.
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On October 12 2011 10:20 iloveroo wrote:
How does giving out items work?
I am currently watching DeMoN's stream and his friend p33n just gave him a bottle.
Can you give any item to your teammates or specific ones?
some items are sharable, speciifcally regen related items and teleport scrolls, and gem. others are not and are muted (useless) when teammates or the enemy carry them. opponents picking up your items work similarly except non-usable regen items are muted and the case of divine rapier
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On October 12 2011 08:28 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 02:23 Judicator wrote:
Map awareness and spacing. Lion's nerf really dropped him from good to mediocre. Keep in mind that you move slow as hell. Keep in mind that your Hex is better than your Stun, and keep in mind that you can sit on your stun until you can hit more than 1 person. Keep in mind that if you are getting jumped by 3 or 4 heroes, you are playing some terrible players and just hope your team isn't as dumb as they are. When was Lion last nerfed? It might be wrong, but PlayDota changelog compilation says 6.60. Aside from that, pretty much what Judicator and others said. You should be ganking a lot (esp. when your ulti is off cooldown) and not farming so much as to let them set up a 3-4 hero gank on you. Luminous does a commentary where he follows around EHOME.Dai's Lion (arguably the best Lion player in the world) for the whole game. Worth taking a look if you want to play a really effective Lion. Link
Yeah, Lion wasn't seen much after his ms went down to 290.
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I really don't think its the ms nerf which made lion more rare but rather the appearance of stronger solo mid heroes like Bat, AA, SD, Invoker. so now in front of Lion, you have these 4 + Lich + Beastmaster and thus Lion rarely gets picked as there are just many heroes that plays solo mid much better.
He still shows up in Dota 2 quite a bit more than he does in serious Dota1 competition though since SD and Invoker aren't available.
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On October 12 2011 12:18 lixlix wrote:
I really don't think its the ms nerf which made lion more rare but rather the appearance of stronger solo mid heroes like Bat, AA, SD, Invoker. so now in front of Lion, you have these 4 + Lich + Beastmaster and thus Lion rarely gets picked as there are just many heroes that plays solo mid much better.
He still shows up in Dota 2 quite a bit more than he does in serious Dota1 competition though since SD and Invoker aren't available.
Hardly, Bat/Invoker were both around before Lion. 290 ms makes a giant difference for effective spacing and ganking.
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How come the Buriza does not get used very often in high level play? Feels like a fairly decent dps item during the late game to me.
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On October 12 2011 12:28 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 12:18 lixlix wrote:
I really don't think its the ms nerf which made lion more rare but rather the appearance of stronger solo mid heroes like Bat, AA, SD, Invoker. so now in front of Lion, you have these 4 + Lich + Beastmaster and thus Lion rarely gets picked as there are just many heroes that plays solo mid much better.
He still shows up in Dota 2 quite a bit more than he does in serious Dota1 competition though since SD and Invoker aren't available. Hardly, Bat/Invoker were both around before Lion. 290 ms makes a giant difference for effective spacing and ganking.
of course AA and Invoker were around but they weren't in -CM and SD hasn't entered competitive until recently. its not the movespeed nerf that made Lion less popular though that combined with the Voodoo nerf might have had some effect.
There are lots of other first pick first ban often solo mid heroes that you just don't see very much anymore like Pugna or Doom, its not just Lion.
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On October 12 2011 12:31 Rhaegar99 wrote:
How come the Buriza does not get used very often in high level play? Feels like a fairly decent dps item during the late game to me.
Buriza is very very late game and most games don't get to that point. The popular carries of today, AM, Spectre, Weaver, Syllabear, Lycan all have a more effective item to farm first either manta or radiance.
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On October 12 2011 12:49 lixlix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 12:31 Rhaegar99 wrote:
How come the Buriza does not get used very often in high level play? Feels like a fairly decent dps item during the late game to me. Buriza is very very late game and most games don't get to that point. The popular carries of today, AM, Spectre, Weaver, Syllabear, Lycan all have a more effective item to farm first either manta or radiance.
Also, most other dps items have a secondary use. Butterfly gives great EHP against physical damage. MKB counters butterfly (and heroes like WR). Radiance puts your farming speed in hyperdrive. Buriza is the only one that doesn't really do anything besides add damage (and rapier is a more cost effective choice if you really need it).
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On October 12 2011 12:31 Rhaegar99 wrote:
How come the Buriza does not get used very often in high level play? Feels like a fairly decent dps item during the late game to me.
doesnt help against evasion and armor applies to crits. mkb can ministun damage that goes through armor and you can never miss with truestrike on. 30% evasion from bfly means a psuedo 30% hp gain, which usually is much more important than a 25% crit that gets reduced by 50% and more by a moderate amount of armor. also windrunners durability against you is weakened incredibly when she cant evade your attacks
its not bad against teams you're ahead of though (and you actually use it)
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So as some people know all I do is watch streams.. watch mostly DeMoN & Dendi.
So I was wondering.. is farming that huge in DotA than to LoL. I played LoL since release and I noticed that farming is the major thing in LoL.. farm farm farm.. some people would just afkfarm one lane then tp in a fight and/or just recall back home
But I noticed in DotA that in the early stages I compare the 2 DotA and LoL, and DotA seems to have less farm early-mid than LoL
Also, I notice that a lot of people usually stay way far behind the creeps and I see them missing exp usually far away from their creeps why is that? typically scared of ganks? I suppose?
edit: usually my solution to that is that DotA has more early ganks which cause you to get more gold if your team does gank your lane, but if its the other way around it causes you to play more passive/defensive which makes you miss farm & exp
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some support characters stay way back and miss exp on purpose so that its not split between them and the carry, so that the carry gets the entire share.
Farming is just as important in DOTA. but its not just last hitting. its supports giving you room to farm.
I think its just that oftentimes Demon or Dendi aren't playing carry characters.The next time they play an antimage or spectre, see how much farming they do.
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EPT
