On September 07 2012 00:03 Dead9 wrote: a lot of the stuff is inaccurate, or at least misleading for example the rock/paper/scissors stuff doesn't make sense at all; the push>turtle>gank thing isn't even true, and often teams can't be neatly categorized into push/gank/turtle anyway current metagame, example pick/bans, etc are obviously all outdated as well, so i don't know what you're supposed to learn from the guide other than to pick to your team's strengths (which is important but kind of obvious)
It does make sense if you don't think about it in absolutes like the guide suggests. Your team isn't neatly categorized into push counterpush (turtle) or gank. You merely have to understand what heroes each team selected and what this creates in terms of opportunities to push, counterpush, or gank. When you take advantage of these opportunities or know that the other team has an advantage and set up to not allow them to take advantage of it then you end up winning the game.
You create these opportunities through your draft. You want to counter what they're doing without giving away too much of your own hand so they can counter you back. Say they're going for a ridiculous gank composition (Nightsalker, Storm Spirit, and Bloodseeker). Obviously you're going to want to turtle because if their gankers don't get rolling then you're going to dominate them later on. Draft a teamcomp that revolves around escaping and preventing tower dives and stick together so you don't get picked off. A team comp this obvious (and easy to counter) doesn't happen though. Every team is going to have a mixture of everything and you have to know the relative strengths of each composition and where those opportunities are going to be.
This is getting far from simple. We should have some sort of topic of drafting ^_^
On September 07 2012 03:59 Dead9 wrote: yeah but i'm just saying that the way the guide puts it doesn't make sense because it's not a rock-paper-scissors relationship at all
tide/enigma/ds is really versatile, that could be followed up with almost anything
Yes, the guide states that explicitly. It's merely a foundation for the basis of the entire guide. The third sentence in the RPS paragraph:
It is an interesting point of view indeed, but it should only be kept in the back of your head, considering the fact that DotA obviously isn't as simple, as it is put. To understand some of my theory later on, you will have to read this.
My example isn't as good as I wanted it to be in retrospect. I should have picked three ganking heroes instead which I'll change now.
The guide itself says that it's not a rock-paper-scissors relationship, did you even read it? -.- The examples are really good, the progamer quotes are really good.
the issue is the rock-paper-scissors view is really outdated and doesn't really translate into modern play i mean i know the idea is to counterpick their heroes, but there's no reason to think about it in terms of ganking/pushing/turtling at all edit:
On September 07 2012 04:13 Shikyo wrote: The guide itself says that it's not a rock-paper-scissors relationship, did you even read it? -.- The examples are really good, the progamer quotes are really good.
i'm saying that the entire guide is outdated, the rps thing was just an example of something that doesn't exist at all in modern play
The RPS view is merely something to get you started thinking about how things counteract eachother. It's like in school when you learn the essay format where you have five paragraphs of five sentences each. Obviously this is a shitty paper, but when you're just learning how to start writing it gives you a solid foundation to get started. If you're a grand master drafter then RPS is outdated and useless, but as a basis for someone just starting out it is a step in the right direction.
On September 07 2012 04:19 Dead9 wrote: the issue is the rock-paper-scissors view is really outdated and doesn't really translate into modern play i mean i know the idea is to counterpick their heroes, but there's no reason to think about it in terms of ganking/pushing/turtling at all edit:
On September 07 2012 04:13 Shikyo wrote: The guide itself says that it's not a rock-paper-scissors relationship, did you even read it? -.- The examples are really good, the progamer quotes are really good.
i'm saying that the entire guide is outdated, the rps thing was just an example of something that doesn't exist at all in modern play
On September 06 2012 22:21 Raidern wrote: I would like to know more about team composition and drafting strategy. Anyone knows of an specific good text I can read? I've checked google and found some texts, but nothing too enlightening. I'd be glad to get a PM from someone willing to help me with that too.
not a text, but there's a vid somewhere, I think it was from The Dota Show LD and Lumi hosts
iirc Blitz, Bruno and Waga(?) were discussing/practicing drafts
it's from a month or two ago, but still much more recent than the guide that was posted
the issue i have with the rps thing is that its really misleading shikyo, obviously things like the current metagame, example picks, etc are going to be outdated in a guide from over a year ago theres a pretty decent amount of analysis floating around on ti2 pickbans anyway and thats much more relevant
On September 07 2012 10:33 empty.bottle wrote: Does anyone know a good jungling guide? I'm pretty sure there aren't many good ones of dota 2, I wouldn't mind watching a dota1 guide.
That is kinda vague since all the heroes jungle pretty differently.
On September 07 2012 10:33 empty.bottle wrote: Does anyone know a good jungling guide? I'm pretty sure there aren't many good ones of dota 2, I wouldn't mind watching a dota1 guide.
Sounds to me like this is coming from a LoL player (since LoL jungle has set paths that are good and bad, etc.). The jungle camps in Dota 2 are random for the most part (theres hard camps vs easy camps but that's about it). Any jungle guide would be extremely hero dependent, so you would just look up a guide for that specific hero. The main junglers would be Chen / Enchantress / Enigma / Lifestealer / Lone Druid / Lycanthrope / Nature's Prophet. If you're jungling you just walk around killing jungle creeps til you've gotten to a specific level at which you become useful in ganking / til you've farmed a certain core item.
Is animation cancelling (pressing S) to last hit still viable with a notably high ping of around 250-300? I've been trying to get the hang of it but it's significantly harder to time than animation cancelling by just click the ground.
On September 07 2012 16:26 Ryhzuo wrote: Is animation cancelling (pressing S) to last hit still viable with a notably high ping of around 250-300? I've been trying to get the hang of it but it's significantly harder to time than animation cancelling by just click the ground.
I still do it with that sort of ping. But if you find clicking the ground easier, then just stick with that.
EHOME considers Tiny to be the strongest carry hero for a few very simple reasons... Aghanims is 100% cleave damage - Grow gives a 150 bonus damage at the cost of 50% attack speed (basically 2100g < 6000g). His early game power is insane & his late game is just as strong if played correctly.
On September 08 2012 04:38 yotcarter wrote: EHOME considers Tiny to be the strongest carry hero for a few very simple reasons... Aghanims is 100% cleave damage - Grow gives a 150 bonus damage at the cost of 50% attack speed (basically 2100g < 6000g). His early game power is insane & his late game is just as strong if played correctly.
EPT
