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On September 03 2012 23:07 Lightspeaker wrote:
At the moment I'm just choosing based on what I like the look of, the few things I've picked up from guides online about styles, what abilities they have and stuff like that.
But obviously relying on just one hero isn't exactly the most viable way to play. So I'd like a couple of suggestions on heroes played in a similar style, just fast-DPSing people down before they can fight back. So far I've mainly looked at stealth-based stuff. I've toyed about with Riki but he seems pretty hit and miss (either I absolutely annihilate the players of the other team by picking them all off all over the place or I just die constantly). I've played a game as Bounty Hunter and he seems pretty solid but is hard to get hold of because he's often picked in low-level pubs. I started playing Antimage a bit as well (for blink-in ninja-ganks) but its harder to get good farm without any kind of decent support given he seems to be fairly squishy for melee in early game.
Any ideas would be appreciated.
Well it sounds like you play self-contained invis carry heroes who can jump into team fights. I think the best answer is in fact TA like you said. If you noticed, TA's items does not completely affect her dmg until late game but instead give her a better position the enemy. Other heroes/carries like AM sort of NEED those strong items to survive in those fights and dish out that damage. Problem with riki is that he can be hard countered by an organised team or against a good lane, as well as other invis heroes.
At any rate, my suggestions are Clinkz (with Orchid), Nyx Assassing (although extremely squishy), Storm Spirit and Night Stalker. There are other positional heroes like Brewmaster and Invoker. Queen of Pain can be fun as well. Also Morphling can be interesting with the shotgun build. I tend to feel pretty helpless vs Morphling
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On September 04 2012 03:01 Macr0phage wrote:
I guess I got two questions. One, does vlads aura work on Axes counter helix? So when he counter helix would he heal from it? and Two: Would vlads be a horrible item on axe? Because i'm looking at some builds online, and they normally suggest Tranquil boots if you jungle, and eventually you disassemble them to get power treads, and so with the rest of the disassembled items, why not make a basilius and then get a vlads since you're only missing a morbid mask?
I'm not sure about online builds but as others have said, vlads isn't useful for counter helix. While yes, all you would need is a Mask for vlads, Vlads doesn't really do much for the hero. That 900 gold for mask, could be the difference between a blink dagger, which is very much needed for Axe as is one of his most important items.
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Thnx all for answers regarding laning .
I played y-day for few H and it went alot better as i found out you can buy TP scrolls in side shops.
I also got used to using wand + carie more tangos just in case.
What is Dota's exp gain range ( distance from minion till champion ) ?
Still one thing bugs be about dota's Tp/base .... is option to suicide in lane/jungle minions viable ?
Instead of using TP to base i run into jungle and die to creeps , at low lvl's respawn timers are smaller then walk distance and if you use TP scroll you still get CD on it and can't use straight up to return to tower. Or you loose also gold when die to nuterals and thus my idea is stupid ? ( Can some1 also link some read about gold loses on death ? )
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
On September 04 2012 14:39 NightWalks wrote:
Thnx all for answers regarding laning .
I played y-day for few H and it went alot better as i found out you can buy TP scrolls in side shops.
I also got used to using wand + carie more tangos just in case.
What is Dota's exp gain range ( distance from minion till champion ) ?
Still one thing bugs be about dota's Tp/base .... is option to suicide in lane/jungle minions viable ?
Instead of using TP to base i run into jungle and die to creeps , at low lvl's respawn timers are smaller then walk distance and if you use TP scroll you still get CD on it and can't use straight up to return to tower. Or you loose also gold when die to nuterals and thus my idea is stupid ? ( Can some1 also link some read about gold loses on death ? )
Exp range: I don't know the number but it's quite large.
Your last question: although pros occasionally do it to neutral creeps, it would be simpler to say 'don't do it at all'. You lose a lot more gold by dying in Dota than in LoL. You lose gold by dying in any way, whether it be to enemy or neutral creeps or even suiciding yourself.
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You can suicide to neutrals but only when you have no unreliable gold(you get reliable gold for kills and assists, rest is unreliable, you don't lose reliable gold on death. Mouse over gold to see the numbers) You can buy items and then die to neutrals, but it's only worth it below level 5 or so, as dying to a neutral takes you around 10 seconds(including time to find one).
http://www.playdota.com/mechanics/Gold here's a write up on gold, losing included
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What is a good build for a PK less tiny, played like in the international 2, and should I go mid or not?
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On September 04 2012 19:25 Catch]22 wrote:
What is a good build for a PK less tiny, played like in the international 2, and should I go mid or not?
If you're planning on playing a carry-oriented Tiny without getting a blink dagger, you tend to go short lane and get up your farm. If you want to mid on him without getting blink, it's not gonna be as efficient because you're going to need to gank and control the midgame for your team, while still getting the farm you need to carry later on, which is kind of counter-productive, but it can be done. Just depends on how the game goes and if your team has other people who can initiate and catch people. Honestly though it should be fine, people are figuring out that blink-less Tiny is becoming more and more viable. The build that you saw in TI2 that everyone used for him is pretty much the most efficient carry build on him as far as I know. Phase boots -> Drums -> Yasha -> Aghanims -> Manta or whatever else. Makes him run extremely fast and hit extremely hard.
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if youre gonna skip blink build bkb and aghs and stack as/ms/armor
phase/treads＋wand＋bottle > bkb＋aghs > sny/mom/ac/manta/crit/etc
other options include an early drums or more survivability with stuff like heart or halberd or bfly
go to whichever lane provides the most farm (generally mid)
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As I understand it, STR, DEX, and INT heroes can all be carries, meaning that they can right click and auto-attack for more damage if they build their main stat.
Does that mean that casters with high base damage numbers on their spells are viable supports over the CC/Tank/Initiator support pool of say, League of Legends?
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Northern Ireland22213 Posts
I'm not quite sure what you're asking? Yes most of the high damage nukers will play a support role. Most carries will be AGI, because agility will directly grant them damage, armour and attack speed. The few str/int carries that exist are only possible because of some of their skills. eg. CK has crit and very powerful illusions
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Good carries should
A) farm fast
B) have a way to escape
C) Output a lot of damage from the farm you get
For example, Antimage will farm very fast with blink and BF, is nigh unkillable if played well due to spellshield+blink, and with manta will burn mana very quick, as well as scale well with other items.
Good supports should
A) be item independent
B) be able to contribute despite low levels
C) have strong level 1/2 spells
For example, venomancer needs no items to truly be effective, has one of the strongest spells at level 1, and will contribute well to pushes/counterpushes after level 7 (and before then, but the wards are maxed at 7 so).
Not to say that a character can't have aspects of both - DK is a carry, but has a very strong stun at level 1. Also, being poor in one regard may be compensated by others - ES needs a blink dagger to be able to ult well, but has good returns on that blink and is still strong in the other regard of being a support - a very strong level 1 spell if used well, and after 11 doesn't need much more (although 16 is nice, as well as the stats). But they need to return on this weakness - sniper isn't viable due to lack of escape and pretty slow farming, and has very little to show for it.
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On September 04 2012 21:16 Praetorial wrote:
As I understand it, STR, DEX, and INT heroes can all be carries, meaning that they can right click and auto-attack for more damage if they build their main stat.
Does that mean that casters with high base damage numbers on their spells are viable supports over the CC/Tank/Initiator support pool of say, League of Legends?
While all stats add damage, that doesn't mean all that much. There are items that give straight damage anyway. It is always defined by their skill set. The vast majority of AGI heroes are or can be carries, because it also adds armor and attack speed, but heroes like Nyx Assassin have such a low AGI growth and no useful skills that they can't carry at all.
INT and STR carries are always defined by their skills, the few INT carries have abilities that increase their damage, like Obsidian Destroyer and Silencer's orbs and Invoker with Exort/Alacrity or carry through skills, like Leshrah and Tinker. Some heroes like QoP and Storm can still do respectable auto-attack damage, but it is their skills that make them able to carry. STR carries also need abilities like Crit, Cleave, Bonus Damage, etc. to be decent carries.
Overall, just getting damage from your main stat means very little, you really need to look at every hero individually. You will find heroes that have high damage numbers on their spells that can easily carry and are not very good supports, like Mirana. A hero like Leshrac has a lot of spell damage and can both carry and support. Some support don't have a high damage skillset but a lot of utility, like Vengeful Spirit. Some heroes with stuns can carry, like CK or even Sven.
TL:DR: There is no general rule, you need to look at each hero individually.
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How do you beat a TA on an invoker? 
I've seen too many pros fall prey to 430's.
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On September 04 2012 22:33 kaykaykay wrote:How do you beat a TA on an invoker? I've seen too many pros fall prey to 430's.
You are better or you get help.
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
On September 04 2012 21:33 ahswtini wrote:
I'm not quite sure what you're asking? Yes most of the high damage nukers will play a support role. Most carries will be AGI, because agility will directly grant them damage, armour and attack speed. The few str/int carries that exist are only possible because of some of their skills. eg. CK has crit and very powerful illusions
KingJ of EHOME told me his team believes that Tiny is the strongest carry when given 6 items. While the definition of "strongest carry" is always a bit nebulous, I can see where he's coming from. Tiny has ridiculous base damage, high base movement speed, and a good skill set. He does lack survivability in some sense with only decent armor, but as a STR hero he does have nice STR gain. Of course, the problem is actually getting Tiny to a farmed state. If you watch EHOME versus Orange where EHOME picked Tiny they had Wisp follow Tiny around with Tether & Overcharge most of the game since otherwise Tiny doesn't farm that quickly (especially due to the -AS Grow! gives).
As for a Carry Tiny build, Phase/Treads, Drum, Aghanim's has been seen a few time. While you are aiming to play Tiny as a carry, you still exert a lot of power midgame. Obviously, Phase and Drum help you move quickly and get in position since your combo can still kill people. Aghanim's speeds up your farming rate and increases your damage output in clustered fights.
After Aghanim's, Manta Style is a decent item. Your illusions hit hard due to your high base damage, and you can send them on towers for a lot of damage. Not sure if Tiny is bugged right now but I think the illusions with Aghanim's are cleaving (if somebody has tested let me know) as well, making them even better illusions than normal ones. Lastly, you can follow up with Cuirass, Butterfly, Black King Bar--the standard carry items.
On September 04 2012 22:33 kaykaykay wrote:How do you beat a TA on an invoker? I've seen too many pros fall prey to 430's.
QW pretty much only trades even due to regeneration. With no DoT skills (Cold Snap doesn't count) you pretty much can't move TA out of the lane. And with a bottle, she regenerates as much as you do. In pubs, I've seen a lot of TAs get solo kills on the enemy mid Invoker as soon as TA hits level 6. Watching TI2, the same thing almost comes into effect. Not sure if the LGD-iG match had Ferrari's TA against Yao's Invoker, but I do remember at two points an Invoker around level 6 barely escaping with Ghost Walk once Psionic Traps are up.
QE Invoker doesn't really do much either. Your +damage doesn't hurt the TA since she has refraction charges, and Forge Spirits are too low-ranged and don't live long enough with low levels of Quas.
As somebody already said, get help. TA is relatively easy to gank before she hits level 6. It just so happens that Ferrari is really good even in the face of pressure mid that he's not slowed down.
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On September 05 2012 01:59 flamewheel wrote:
Not sure if Tiny is bugged right now but I think the illusions with Aghanim's are cleaving (if somebody has tested let me know) as well, making them even better illusions than normal ones.
They do not cleave, just tested it.
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I've got an important question because this is really been bothering me. I've been playing pretty much at least 3 hours every day Dota 2 for about 1,5 months now but still I don't know how best to understand this situation: How to farm efficiently and take part in teamfights/ganks. Sometimes the gank opportunity is lost, sometimes it is failure and you gotta react, sometimes it's fine but you get no kills...Which means all that lost gold and last hit opportunity. I feel terrible feeling that "ugh look at my lh, look at my gold, all that time lost" that feels really bad.
Granted I play pubs for the majority of the time and we don't have communication beyond ingame chat and pings so setting up ganks isn't really easy and executing is whole different matter...So what can I do to fix this issue?
Say I'm playing an invoker...Should I not take part in team fights if possible until say, 2-3 Quas 7 Wex and 1 Exort (along with invoke levels ofc) Or maybe until I have a Phase+Drums+Wand? Or if I do, should I waste little time so I go back immediately to farming, even if the enemy is pushing tower in another lane?
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United States47024 Posts
On September 05 2012 03:04 Bleak wrote:
I've got an important question because this is really been bothering me. I've been playing pretty much at least 3 hours every day Dota 2 for about 1,5 months now but still I don't know how best to understand this situation: How to farm efficiently and take part in teamfights/ganks. Sometimes the gank opportunity is lost, sometimes it is failure and you gotta react, sometimes it's fine but you get no kills...Which means all that lost gold and last hit opportunity. I feel terrible feeling that "ugh look at my lh, look at my gold, all that time lost" that feels really bad.
Granted I play pubs for the majority of the time and we don't have communication beyond ingame chat and pings so setting up ganks isn't really easy and executing is whole different matter...So what can I do to fix this issue?
Say I'm playing an invoker...Should I not take part in team fights if possible until say, 2-3 Quas 7 Wex and 1 Exort (along with invoke levels ofc) Or maybe until I have a Phase+Drums+Wand? Or if I do, should I waste little time so I go back immediately to farming, even if the enemy is pushing tower in another lane?
You can't generalize this. The simple way to say it is you take the fights you know you can gain something from, and avoid the fights where you won't accomplish anything. The only way to evaluate this is with experience--knowing what your hero and your opponents can accomplish, and whether what you're attempting is going to succeed. Practically speaking, this means you just have to fail a lot of times, look at why you failed, and learn from it.
There's no fixed point where you say "I should start coming to fights with X levels and Y items". It's related to the entire game state of all 10 heroes in the game.
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On September 05 2012 03:04 Bleak wrote:
I've got an important question because this is really been bothering me. I've been playing pretty much at least 3 hours every day Dota 2 for about 1,5 months now but still I don't know how best to understand this situation: How to farm efficiently and take part in teamfights/ganks. Sometimes the gank opportunity is lost, sometimes it is failure and you gotta react, sometimes it's fine but you get no kills...Which means all that lost gold and last hit opportunity. I feel terrible feeling that "ugh look at my lh, look at my gold, all that time lost" that feels really bad.
Granted I play pubs for the majority of the time and we don't have communication beyond ingame chat and pings so setting up ganks isn't really easy and executing is whole different matter...So what can I do to fix this issue?
Say I'm playing an invoker...Should I not take part in team fights if possible until say, 2-3 Quas 7 Wex and 1 Exort (along with invoke levels ofc) Or maybe until I have a Phase+Drums+Wand? Or if I do, should I waste little time so I go back immediately to farming, even if the enemy is pushing tower in another lane?
To add onto what TheYango posted, it depends on what your team is trying to accomplish in a gank/teamfight. It's more than realizing an obvious kill potential, it's also about the possibilities that are opened by starting/winning/losing a teamfight. There is no black and white set rule on when and where to TP as a farmer. Days worth of game experience is pretty much the only solid answer I can give you, but you should also keep in mind that other things can happen during a teamfight and after. For example, say the enemy team is all grouped up in one lane and about to fight your team. Can you push the lane that you're currently in and score a tower? In some rare cases (Ursa, Lycan) can you score a quick and easy Roshan?
In general (especially in public games) you should try to be active in teamfights that you think you can win. The state of your entire team is more important than your lasthits and gold, so don't feel bad if you're a bit behind on farm.
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EPT
