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Velzi
Finland659 Posts
I've been trying the "morphling" start with some other ranged carrys like luna and so on, its been quite good too. Especially when u expect heavy harassment having 10 tangoes is really good. With morphling start i mean 2 x tangoes 4xbranch + circlet. Easy upg to wand but u dont have any components to WB +r RoA so thats the only downside. | ||
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Buckyman
1364 Posts
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
Mid gets pooled cuz he doesn't have a bro there to share | ||
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Velzi
Finland659 Posts
On February 15 2017 02:35 Buckyman wrote: I mentioned that a lane support is pooling me tangos, right? u are not going to trade hits with their offlaner if u pool tangoes mid and safelane and buy all the support stuff. | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2632 Posts
Its a bit better now that you can buy individual sentries so you have 100 less gold that has to be dumped into starting items, but still. | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
i think this enough is a good tldr; for what i was trying to say earlier. On February 13 2017 22:59 DV G wrote: As I said first, setting "stable points" to what is going to happen like getting pooled tangoes or not is important for the discussion. I think that one of the main reasons you dont get the "full itemslot" builds is because you will get a salve for the lane if you dont buy tangoes (too risky to have to go base and lose 1-2 waves and leave the lane if you get harrased). Also you get items fairly quickly and having to use the couirer multiple times to finish those items could hinder your teammtes ability to have dust-sentries-wards-etc that could be needed in other lanes. While mid has priority, you cant just assume its your personal courier. the salve is almost necessary in every mid lane start, you will now not have that at minute 0, if hoping to do full-slot/recipe builds. the two courier trips afterwards (assuming salve first) for Recipe, then Bottle/Boots is impractical and won't work outside of low level pubs IMHO. about the wraithband recipe start, i totally agree that it's unsafe to peek into sideshop in some games and therefore makes it not a very good start. sometimes you'll sit with 300+ gold, even up to 900g and unable to use sideshop which is necessary for your recipe start. those are the kind of games where lane equilibrium is volatile and seems very hard to control, but it stems from the way you are playing, including around the regen you have. even the Ring of Protection start doesn't happen very often anymore. same sort of reasoning, except it deals with other factors like low damage = poor last-hitting/denying during the first waves, poor regen, and having to hit CS quotas to make it work. it's just dependant on too many things you can't control, while you haven't hedged your bets with a proper amount of regen to begin with. TL;DR the norm happens for a reason, your friends are opinionated | ||
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SKN1995
Japan204 Posts
Is this behaviour intended by Valve? | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
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Buckyman
1364 Posts
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Archeon
3262 Posts
If you have three times as much assists as kills on Sven I think you might be doing something wrong. In general I'd say no, ofc ideally you want to have a high kill/a ratio because it means more gold for you, but securing a kill is often better than going for the lasthit if you aren't sure that you are going to get the kill and that their reinforcements are too far away. It's also a bit dependent on how your sups play. Good core players have good targeting in teamfights and flank often, which nets them easy and fast kills, but that's somewhat risky and more advanced. That being said I play mostly sup or offlane in 4k+ and only carry lower on nonranked, so mb some high mmr carry can give you further insight. | ||
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Buckyman
1364 Posts
The question remains though: how much higher would the ratio need to get before it's something I need to deliberately work on? | ||
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Xxazn4lyfe51xX
United States976 Posts
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Archeon
3262 Posts
Ideally you want your carry to get as many kills as possible, except maybe for first blood on a sup over a safelane carry, when 400 gold on the sups still really matters (earlier boots and more smokes averages more kills and easier zoning). And even then it is a game to game call, if your carry can accelerate to the point where he can solo lane or jungle with the 400g then giving it to the carry can definitely be beneficial. I'd also always give it to mid if possible. Bonus gold on your carry translates into earlier item timings, which in turn translates into better skirmishes and more towers. Bonus gold on sups usually translates into a nothing unless it chains, since most cornerstone items after brown boots are 1.5-2.5k gold and sups don't have any stable income. Ofc as carry you want to have always less than 5 and ideally less than 3 deaths. @Buckyman As a rule of thumb I'd expect mid to have at least a 2:3 ratio and a safelane carry at least a 1:2 ratio, ideally both are higher. But again, if you play Duza and the game doesnt go to 50 minutes I'd expect that to be lower f.e. | ||
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Jisira
470 Posts
On February 26 2017 00:11 Buckyman wrote: As a carry player, at what point should I be worried about my assists-to-kills ratio being too high? Anti-Mage joins fights a little later than most carries and if he wins them he generally tales all the kills. Spectre presses R and can potentially give 5 assists. Naga Siren gets a lot of spread damage in everywhere. Slark roams and attacks backlines and gets all the kills. Sven one-shots everything. Luna's glaives just bounce all over. Read your skillset and realise how much of your damage is directed and how much of it that is spread. A spread damage carry can win a game with a 1:3 K/A easily. A directed damage carry can end up with a 3:1 K/A. Some carries don't even care about the brawls but instead enjoy being away from them at most points of the game. Lycan fights well but would prefer pushing a lot of the time (except item timings and if he is miles ahead). | ||
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doc_biceps
Germany43 Posts
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Archeon
3262 Posts
I assume it's their servers, they've been up and down a lot since dark moon. They didn't show as offline on their website though even when we queued for 40 minutes. | ||
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Jisira
470 Posts
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bdonballer
United States408 Posts
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Xxazn4lyfe51xX
United States976 Posts
On February 26 2017 14:41 Archeon wrote: ^I don't really agree to the more kills on sups... Ideally you want your carry to get as many kills as possible, except maybe for first blood on a sup over a safelane carry, when 400 gold on the sups still really matters (earlier boots and more smokes averages more kills and easier zoning). And even then it is a game to game call, if your carry can accelerate to the point where he can solo lane or jungle with the 400g then giving it to the carry can definitely be beneficial. I'd also always give it to mid if possible. Bonus gold on your carry translates into earlier item timings, which in turn translates into better skirmishes and more towers. Bonus gold on sups usually translates into a nothing unless it chains, since most cornerstone items after brown boots are 1.5-2.5k gold and sups don't have any stable income. Ofc as carry you want to have always less than 5 and ideally less than 3 deaths. If a single kill on your carry is suddenly going to make him unkillable in a solo lane something wonky is going on in your game... Here's the thing for me - an assist on a hero is usually still worth 50-100 gold. A legit kill unless it's first blood is usually 250-300 gold. That's a swing of 150-200 gold per kill if you kill vs. assist. That is like 4-5 creeps for a carry. Completely farmable in 20s, even in the earlier stages of the game. If a support takes that kill, that might literally be 3 minutes worth of creep farm for them. Let's not take into account the passive gold gain since everyone gets that anyway. If I accelerate my carry's farm by 20 seconds, it isn't likely to amount to much. If I accelerate my support's farm by 3 minutes, that might actually do something. Of course, this is not a hard rule, all games are different as you say. A CK with 0 kills is a sad CK, because the vast majority of CK's farm comes from killing heroes. An AM with 0 kills doesn't give a fuck. And yes, in an ideal game you would love for the carry to get all the kills while the supports manage to make do with no items. But in reality, having more farm and items on your supports makes for a much more forgiving game. This is just what I've noticed at ~5k. Your mileage may vary. | ||
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Jisira
470 Posts
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