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On February 03 2017 08:50 PresidentUSE wrote:
Not really, just what core heroes/playstyles go well together alongside supports with lots of disables/nukes instead of heals/saves. I usually feel when i'm playing with supports like that my lane is worse than I should allow, we struggle taking base, and me/my team ends up killing 1 person in an initiation before everyone on my team starts to die in the counter-initiation.
As with anything in Dota it depends. Certain heroes have synergy (like Jugg/CM, Jugg/SS, WK/Lesh are classic combos) but overall you want more self reliant cores that will allow you to sit in lane doing OK while they make kills happen all over the map. Think about and/or ask what your support will be doing (stacking/pulling? farming neuts? ganking different lanes? TPing in if the enemy Axe/Abbadon dive?) and itemize appropriately. Maybe don't rush radiance as Alche if your Lion's going to be roaming mid, or maybe stop off for Vlad's first as AM if you know you'll be forced to jungle.
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This isn't really a strategy question but it is simple. Is there a way to delete your own scratch pad guides without removing the rest of the steam cloud for dota 2? I have like 20 of them remaining and they don't show up on the guides homepage for dota 2.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On February 10 2017 04:59 Yurie wrote:
This isn't really a strategy question but it is simple. Is there a way to delete your own scratch pad guides without removing the rest of the steam cloud for dota 2? I have like 20 of them remaining and they don't show up on the guides homepage for dota 2.
check ur Steam/userdata/xxxxxxxx/570/remote/guides folder
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Is there any kind of setting / option or whatever to see the banned and randomed heroes in the game-chat?
People like Waga or Synd have this and also the ppl i play with. But i cant see that infos. the Chat will just remain empty for me until some1 would type.
so when i want to see the banned heros i have to return to the hero-page, thats ok not the best solution but ok. But if some1 decides to random i simply get 0 infos about that. Neither what heros he randomed nor if he decides to reroll.
In the Options i cant see anything that would make that infos appear.
So how is this thing for you? do you guys see these infos or are they hiden for yoiu aswell?
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On February 11 2017 07:48 Rodberd wrote:
Is there any kind of setting / option or whatever to see the banned and randomed heroes in the game-chat?
People like Waga or Synd have this and also the ppl i play with. But i cant see that infos. the Chat will just remain empty for me until some1 would type.
so when i want to see the banned heros i have to return to the hero-page, thats ok not the best solution but ok. But if some1 decides to random i simply get 0 infos about that. Neither what heros he randomed nor if he decides to reroll.
In the Options i cant see anything that would make that infos appear.
So how is this thing for you? do you guys see these infos or are they hiden for yoiu aswell?
"Dota_chat_allow_global true" type this in your console
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see the infos, havent done anything about it.
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you guys have any advise on how to stay focused when people feed on purpose and grief?
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On February 11 2017 22:23 SKNielsen1989 wrote:
you guys have any advise on how to stay focused when people feed on purpose and grief?
Just know that inevitably it will happen sometimes and there is nothing you can do to convince them otherwise. Just prepare mentally for next game and hope that it balances itself out and they will be on the other team next time.
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On February 11 2017 22:23 SKNielsen1989 wrote:
you guys have any advise on how to stay focused when people feed on purpose and grief?
Depends a bit on how badly they feed, but if they want the game to end you can't really stop them. So I usually just go afk once the courier chain starts. I recommend taking a small break after such a game, helps with not tiliting.
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Which offlane heroes are worth picking now?
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Depends on the bracket you are asking. Pro scene is all over slardar again. If we are talking pubs, Centaur and UL both have absurd winrates. DS still has a fairly good winrate above 3k.
And ofc a lot of the heroes that can be laned offlane or as offlane sup are doing well. Treant is likely the elephant in the room, but Riki, Necro, Axe, SB, Jakiro, Weaver all have great winrates. Omni ofc as well.
So yeah Centaur is back, Necro and Treant are now viable, rest is fairly normal.
Personally I really enjoy slardar, but that's nothing new.
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Cool, thanks. How does wr do those days?
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wr is fine if u have easy lane against u but if u are forced out of the lane, u are screwed. If u somehow manage to pick last offlaner and u can abuse their weak safelane, then sure, wr is fine pick.
Nowadays WR is played mostly mid but with recent changes people are trying her as a pos4 roaming support.
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So this is not really gonna be a simple question. But I'm wondering if any mid pros could comment on this: why is the starting items for mid a completed wraith band / nulls, instead of Circlet + agi/int + branches + FF (and get the recipe later)?
This question came about from a debate with my friends and so I did some math:
I have about 4k hours played now but
I have some old school friends who said this trend was noob, because it's not "slot efficient." Essentially saying you have starting gold and only so many slots, so it's better to buy the Circlet, Slippers of Agi, and then some combo of Branches/FF/Tangos. The idea being here that buying a recipe at min 0:00 is wasteful.
My rebuttal was that the recipe (so completed Wraith /Null) is always going to provide an extra main attribute point which translates to more dmg anyway (like a Faerie fire), and in the case of Agi cores, more armor and attack speed. Also, it leaves you with 40 gold remaining, as opposed to cashing out your gold at the start, which, in combination with a bounty rune, could be used to to send a salve or something. I think their thinking was that the bounty rune could be used to complete the recipe (not sure about the math..) and then you enter lane with more attributes overall.
I thought, well it depends on the situation mid, and if you want that extra armor/attack speed and if that could actually make a difference in your last hitting. (e.g. Sniper vs SF matchup) We started doing some shitty math, they continued to disagree until I basically said "well.... why do the pros do it then?" which I know isn't good arguing but I figure there must be a reason. They said basically, Purge told them in a video so long ago to never start with anything with a recipe because it's slot inefficient basically.
Here are some stats I just made by hopping into a lobby and documenting a few different starting set ups:
Circlet = 165
Slippers = 150
Branch x2 = 100
FF = 75
Tangos = 125
Total= 615, 10 g remaining
Stats:
46+2 = 48 dmg
3.9 armor
28 attack speed
16+4 = 20 str
21+7 = 28 agi
15+4 = 19 int
Wraith band = 485
Branch x2 = 100
Total = 585, 40g remaining
Stats
47+3 = 50 dmg
4.1 armor
29 attack speed
16+5= 21 str
21+8= 29 agi
15+5= 20 int
Wraith brand = 485
Branch = 50
FF = 75
Total = 610
StatS:
46+5 = 51 dmg
3.9 armor
28 attack speed
16+4 = 20 str
21+7 = 28 agi
15+4 = 19 int
Seems to me like the wraith band / branches x2 is the best overall, but perhaps it's situational to the mid lane. I said what is probably the MOST inefficient is buying your own tangos, when you can be pooled tangos early which frees up gold to buy the recipe. The rebuttal was basically, you can't count on your teammates to do that, etc. etc. then it kinda devolved from there. Can anybody expand on this?
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On February 13 2017 05:47 Chessz wrote:So this is not really gonna be a simple question. But I'm wondering if any mid pros could comment on this: why is the starting items for mid a completed wraith band / nulls, instead of Circlet + agi/int + branches + FF (and get the recipe later)? This question came about from a debate with my friends and so I did some math: Show nested quote +
I have about 4k hours played now but
I have some old school friends who said this trend was noob, because it's not "slot efficient." Essentially saying you have starting gold and only so many slots, so it's better to buy the Circlet, Slippers of Agi, and then some combo of Branches/FF/Tangos. The idea being here that buying a recipe at min 0:00 is wasteful.
My rebuttal was that the recipe (so completed Wraith /Null) is always going to provide an extra main attribute point which translates to more dmg anyway (like a Faerie fire), and in the case of Agi cores, more armor and attack speed. Also, it leaves you with 40 gold remaining, as opposed to cashing out your gold at the start, which, in combination with a bounty rune, could be used to to send a salve or something. I think their thinking was that the bounty rune could be used to complete the recipe (not sure about the math..) and then you enter lane with more attributes overall.
I thought, well it depends on the situation mid, and if you want that extra armor/attack speed and if that could actually make a difference in your last hitting. (e.g. Sniper vs SF matchup) We started doing some shitty math, they continued to disagree until I basically said "well.... why do the pros do it then?" which I know isn't good arguing but I figure there must be a reason. They said basically, Purge told them in a video so long ago to never start with anything with a recipe because it's slot inefficient basically.
Here are some stats I just made by hopping into a lobby and documenting a few different starting set ups:
Circlet = 165
Slippers = 150
Branch x2 = 100
FF = 75
Tangos = 125
Total= 615, 10 g remaining
Stats:
46+2 = 48 dmg
3.9 armor
28 attack speed
16+4 = 20 str
21+7 = 28 agi
15+4 = 19 int
Wraith band = 485
Branch x2 = 100
Total = 585, 40g remaining
Stats
47+3 = 50 dmg
4.1 armor
29 attack speed
16+5= 21 str
21+8= 29 agi
15+5= 20 int
Wraith brand = 485
Branch = 50
FF = 75
Total = 610
StatS:
46+5 = 51 dmg
3.9 armor
28 attack speed
16+4 = 20 str
21+7 = 28 agi
15+4 = 19 int
Seems to me like the wraith band / branches x2 is the best overall, but perhaps it's situational to the mid lane. I said what is probably the MOST inefficient is buying your own tangos, when you can be pooled tangos early which frees up gold to buy the recipe. The rebuttal was basically, you can't count on your teammates to do that, etc. etc. then it kinda devolved from there. Can anybody expand on this?
i don't know what a pro's reasoning would be on the short as i don't speak to any, nor do i speak to any other players around my bracket, but here's my answer on why using the courier at level 1 to ship the recipe isn't necessarily better.
i don't see why slot efficiency has to do with it. they're saying they should fill their slots with useful items per cost? is this a camping trip? your starting items are there to help you survive with the bare minimum as per your matchup would require of you until you obtain your laning item (PMS, boots, bottle, wand, what have you), and then shipping or using regen as per needed, especially with the addition of shrines and the role of the early roaming support.
your argument could be that your starting items (an additional faerie fire) make or break your lane. that is rarely the case in my experience, and even if it would, you can substitute a branch for a FF, suffering through one less tango worth of regen or having to shift the way you lane in the process. but even that is a case of focusing on tiny aspects more than on fundamentals during laning.
first of all, i don't see anyone do it, and i've only done it on specific heroes like pre-patch morphling and before i played mid more frequently than i did safelane.
assuming they do the first build in your example, my question is what do they spend their bounty gold on? is it gold put aside for the recipe? salve?
- two problems immediately come up. they're going to most likely use courier twice for both the salve and the recipe. the opposing team clicks on you and sees a naked circlet and slipper, wtf is that gonna be? obviously going to be a recipe, easiest courier snipe, and even if it isn't so easy, someone has to protect the courier just because of the tendancy to start with that build.
- some mids like to rush bottle by 2:00 to 2:30 which would coincide with bottle-crowing + boots pickup timing. it's different depending on the heroes involved and whether you are melee etc, but the timing is still there. Zeus will often start with minimal items, like <4 clarities, and that's it. bottle picked up by the first minute and they can continue spamming. Storm starts almost always with null talisman branch/branch or branch/FF. again, same 2-3m bottle timing, one courier trip with salve.
- you do not want to overbuy regen, not as a farming carry, not as a support, not as mid, not as jungle or offlane. the point is, if your build requires you to get pooled tangoes, ask for pooled tangoes at your very first convenience so your supports can plan their itemization at the start. one or two less tangoes for a support is not going to make or break the laning phase. in the first place they shouldn't be required to go through a full set of tangoes + salve before they even touch fountain once. if it did happen it would be more indicative of a laning problem with picks, laning placement, or how you're playing the lane out with your heroes. it is generally more optimal to just divvy up your extra regen, and that is why pooling for mid is a great dump for that, a reason why mid builds start with specific items (requiring a pool) and goals in mind.
in my experience people don't like asking for pools because a) they'll come off as needy or b) with the way they're playing they need more regen than with 3/4 tangoes+1x salve worth. trust me, 2 tangoes is not going to break a supports legs in almost all cases and it is better to be needy before the start than to be asking for help mid when you are getting zoned because you can't secure your bottle.
if the argument is that the 30g difference doesn't mean much, then i will simply say that it does, much more than 2attack damage, 1 str, or similar would. let me ask you this, what are you going to do if you get zoned from CS level 1? like say from a tinker who skills lazer level 1 to deny you of a couple key creep bounties and a deny? what are you going to do when you know the enemy support is roaming between your towers for your courier and you have to sit your recipe there for a good minute? is it now worth it for that efficiency?
the recipe is 170. if you are shipping salve off bounty gold, you need at least 3 creeps out of the first four to have your recipe moving out to you for the next 20 seconds for a chance to have it for wave 2. that would mean that you are using spells to help that process which is not so practical.
in regular games and because of that travel time you'd be tying up the courier for minimum 40s for this recipe and practically nothing else, then that advantage at level 1/2 over doing a traditional build ("trend" as they would call it) is moot at best, all things considered.
and if you were to cut out the salve from your build? well consider your options cut and yourself zoned, delaying your bottle as well as farm from future waves. the benefit of the salve is that it is play-making potential and also time efficient.
honestly if you feel that your team isn't reliable enough for pooling tangoes, i'd rather you ship yourself tangoes with bounty and instead of recipe you buy yourself a high ground ward.
as long as you're doing around 70% lane efficiency, the way it is now is perfectly fine for the timings involved (PMS/bottle + boots/wand + completed aquila) but that's not to say that a twinked build and playstyle can't throw that off once in a while.
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The rebuttal was basically, you can't count on your teammates to do that, etc. etc. then it kinda devolved from there.
At this point you definitely knew whoever you were arguing with was an idiot
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On February 13 2017 05:47 Chessz wrote:So this is not really gonna be a simple question. But I'm wondering if any mid pros could comment on this: why is the starting items for mid a completed wraith band / nulls, instead of Circlet + agi/int + branches + FF (and get the recipe later)? This question came about from a debate with my friends and so I did some math: Show nested quote +
I have about 4k hours played now but
I have some old school friends who said this trend was noob, because it's not "slot efficient." Essentially saying you have starting gold and only so many slots, so it's better to buy the Circlet, Slippers of Agi, and then some combo of Branches/FF/Tangos. The idea being here that buying a recipe at min 0:00 is wasteful.
My rebuttal was that the recipe (so completed Wraith /Null) is always going to provide an extra main attribute point which translates to more dmg anyway (like a Faerie fire), and in the case of Agi cores, more armor and attack speed. Also, it leaves you with 40 gold remaining, as opposed to cashing out your gold at the start, which, in combination with a bounty rune, could be used to to send a salve or something. I think their thinking was that the bounty rune could be used to complete the recipe (not sure about the math..) and then you enter lane with more attributes overall.
I thought, well it depends on the situation mid, and if you want that extra armor/attack speed and if that could actually make a difference in your last hitting. (e.g. Sniper vs SF matchup) We started doing some shitty math, they continued to disagree until I basically said "well.... why do the pros do it then?" which I know isn't good arguing but I figure there must be a reason. They said basically, Purge told them in a video so long ago to never start with anything with a recipe because it's slot inefficient basically.
Here are some stats I just made by hopping into a lobby and documenting a few different starting set ups:
Circlet = 165
Slippers = 150
Branch x2 = 100
FF = 75
Tangos = 125
Total= 615, 10 g remaining
Stats:
46+2 = 48 dmg
3.9 armor
28 attack speed
16+4 = 20 str
21+7 = 28 agi
15+4 = 19 int
Wraith band = 485
Branch x2 = 100
Total = 585, 40g remaining
Stats
47+3 = 50 dmg
4.1 armor
29 attack speed
16+5= 21 str
21+8= 29 agi
15+5= 20 int
Wraith brand = 485
Branch = 50
FF = 75
Total = 610
StatS:
46+5 = 51 dmg
3.9 armor
28 attack speed
16+4 = 20 str
21+7 = 28 agi
15+4 = 19 int
Seems to me like the wraith band / branches x2 is the best overall, but perhaps it's situational to the mid lane. I said what is probably the MOST inefficient is buying your own tangos, when you can be pooled tangos early which frees up gold to buy the recipe. The rebuttal was basically, you can't count on your teammates to do that, etc. etc. then it kinda devolved from there. Can anybody expand on this?
As I said first, setting "stable points" to what is going to happen like getting pooled tangoes or not is important for the discussion.
I think that one of the main reasons you dont get the "full itemslot" builds is because you will get a salve for the lane if you dont buy tangoes (too risky to have to go base and lose 1-2 waves and leave the lane if you get harrased).
Also you get items fairly quickly and having to use the couirer multiple times to finish those items could hinder your teammtes ability to have dust-sentries-wards-etc that could be needed in other lanes.
While mid has priority, you cant just assume its your personal courier.
On February 13 2017 21:56 SKNielsen1989 wrote:Show nested quote +The rebuttal was basically, you can't count on your teammates to do that, etc. etc. then it kinda devolved from there. At this point you definitely knew whoever you were arguing with was an idiot
I mean, If you're purely theorycrafting you have to get some basic points across and set them like
-Do i get pooled tangoes or not
-Do i get the bounty rune or not
-Do i know the mid matchup or not
Etc. Lets be real, in a pub environment you NOT get pooled tangoes always, because you probably have 1 support and 1 jungler (until 5k and even then the toxicity is strong).
On February 13 2017 10:54 nanaoei wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2017 05:47 Chessz wrote:So this is not really gonna be a simple question. But I'm wondering if any mid pros could comment on this: why is the starting items for mid a completed wraith band / nulls, instead of Circlet + agi/int + branches + FF (and get the recipe later)? This question came about from a debate with my friends and so I did some math:
I have about 4k hours played now but
I have some old school friends who said this trend was noob, because it's not "slot efficient." Essentially saying you have starting gold and only so many slots, so it's better to buy the Circlet, Slippers of Agi, and then some combo of Branches/FF/Tangos. The idea being here that buying a recipe at min 0:00 is wasteful.
My rebuttal was that the recipe (so completed Wraith /Null) is always going to provide an extra main attribute point which translates to more dmg anyway (like a Faerie fire), and in the case of Agi cores, more armor and attack speed. Also, it leaves you with 40 gold remaining, as opposed to cashing out your gold at the start, which, in combination with a bounty rune, could be used to to send a salve or something. I think their thinking was that the bounty rune could be used to complete the recipe (not sure about the math..) and then you enter lane with more attributes overall.
I thought, well it depends on the situation mid, and if you want that extra armor/attack speed and if that could actually make a difference in your last hitting. (e.g. Sniper vs SF matchup) We started doing some shitty math, they continued to disagree until I basically said "well.... why do the pros do it then?" which I know isn't good arguing but I figure there must be a reason. They said basically, Purge told them in a video so long ago to never start with anything with a recipe because it's slot inefficient basically.
Here are some stats I just made by hopping into a lobby and documenting a few different starting set ups:
Circlet = 165
Slippers = 150
Branch x2 = 100
FF = 75
Tangos = 125
Total= 615, 10 g remaining
Stats:
46+2 = 48 dmg
3.9 armor
28 attack speed
16+4 = 20 str
21+7 = 28 agi
15+4 = 19 int
Wraith band = 485
Branch x2 = 100
Total = 585, 40g remaining
Stats
47+3 = 50 dmg
4.1 armor
29 attack speed
16+5= 21 str
21+8= 29 agi
15+5= 20 int
Wraith brand = 485
Branch = 50
FF = 75
Total = 610
StatS:
46+5 = 51 dmg
3.9 armor
28 attack speed
16+4 = 20 str
21+7 = 28 agi
15+4 = 19 int
Seems to me like the wraith band / branches x2 is the best overall, but perhaps it's situational to the mid lane. I said what is probably the MOST inefficient is buying your own tangos, when you can be pooled tangos early which frees up gold to buy the recipe. The rebuttal was basically, you can't count on your teammates to do that, etc. etc. then it kinda devolved from there. Can anybody expand on this?
i don't know what a pro's reasoning would be on the short as i don't speak to any, nor do i speak to any other players around my bracket, but here's my answer on why using the courier at level 1 to ship the recipe isn't necessarily better. i don't see why slot efficiency has to do with it. they're saying they should fill their slots with useful items per cost? is this a camping trip? your starting items are there to help you survive with the bare minimum as per your matchup would require of you until you obtain your laning item (PMS, boots, bottle, wand, what have you), and then shipping or using regen as per needed, especially with the addition of shrines and the role of the early roaming support. your argument could be that your starting items (an additional faerie fire) make or break your lane. that is rarely the case in my experience, and even if it would, you can substitute a branch for a FF, suffering through one less tango worth of regen or having to shift the way you lane in the process. but even that is a case of focusing on tiny aspects more than on fundamentals during laning. first of all, i don't see anyone do it, and i've only done it on specific heroes like pre-patch morphling and before i played mid more frequently than i did safelane. assuming they do the first build in your example, my question is what do they spend their bounty gold on? is it gold put aside for the recipe? salve? - two problems immediately come up. they're going to most likely use courier twice for both the salve and the recipe. the opposing team clicks on you and sees a naked circlet and slipper, wtf is that gonna be? obviously going to be a recipe, easiest courier snipe, and even if it isn't so easy, someone has to protect the courier just because of the tendancy to start with that build. - some mids like to rush bottle by 2:00 to 2:30 which would coincide with bottle-crowing + boots pickup timing. it's different depending on the heroes involved and whether you are melee etc, but the timing is still there. Zeus will often start with minimal items, like <4 clarities, and that's it. bottle picked up by the first minute and they can continue spamming. Storm starts almost always with null talisman branch/branch or branch/FF. again, same 2-3m bottle timing, one courier trip with salve. - you do not want to overbuy regen, not as a farming carry, not as a support, not as mid, not as jungle or offlane. the point is, if your build requires you to get pooled tangoes, ask for pooled tangoes at your very first convenience so your supports can plan their itemization at the start. one or two less tangoes for a support is not going to make or break the laning phase. in the first place they shouldn't be required to go through a full set of tangoes + salve before they even touch fountain once. if it did happen it would be more indicative of a laning problem with picks, laning placement, or how you're playing the lane out with your heroes. it is generally more optimal to just divvy up your extra regen, and that is why pooling for mid is a great dump for that, a reason why mid builds start with specific items (requiring a pool) and goals in mind. in my experience people don't like asking for pools because a) they'll come off as needy or b) with the way they're playing they need more regen than with 3/4 tangoes+1x salve worth. trust me, 2 tangoes is not going to break a supports legs in almost all cases and it is better to be needy before the start than to be asking for help mid when you are getting zoned because you can't secure your bottle. if the argument is that the 30g difference doesn't mean much, then i will simply say that it does, much more than 2attack damage, 1 str, or similar would. let me ask you this, what are you going to do if you get zoned from CS level 1? like say from a tinker who skills lazer level 1 to deny you of a couple key creep bounties and a deny? what are you going to do when you know the enemy support is roaming between your towers for your courier and you have to sit your recipe there for a good minute? is it now worth it for that efficiency? the recipe is 170. if you are shipping salve off bounty gold, you need at least 3 creeps out of the first four to have your recipe moving out to you for the next 20 seconds for a chance to have it for wave 2. that would mean that you are using spells to help that process which is not so practical. in regular games and because of that travel time you'd be tying up the courier for minimum 40s for this recipe and practically nothing else, then that advantage at level 1/2 over doing a traditional build ("trend" as they would call it) is moot at best, all things considered. and if you were to cut out the salve from your build? well consider your options cut and yourself zoned, delaying your bottle as well as farm from future waves. the benefit of the salve is that it is play-making potential and also time efficient. honestly if you feel that your team isn't reliable enough for pooling tangoes, i'd rather you ship yourself tangoes with bounty and instead of recipe you buy yourself a high ground ward. as long as you're doing around 70% lane efficiency, the way it is now is perfectly fine for the timings involved (PMS/bottle + boots/wand + completed aquila) but that's not to say that a twinked build and playstyle can't throw that off once in a while.
I usually read your post, while they're well written, I'd say adding a "TL;DR" version would be great, just my honest opinion, so you can get more feedback and discussion going.
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Speaking of Wraith Band starts, there's a safelane start that seems viable but unpopular:
Wraith Band recipe + circlet + ring of protection + Salve.
Take bounty rune, complete Wraith Band at side shop by 0:30. Pool tangos from lane supports as necessary. Complete Aquila at side shop by 1:30. Once you have it, the second support can gank.
Why isn't it used?
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On February 15 2017 01:16 Buckyman wrote:
Speaking of Wraith Band starts, there's a safelane start that seems viable but unpopular:
Wraith Band recipe + circlet + ring of protection + Salve.
Take bounty rune, complete Wraith Band at side shop by 0:30. Pool tangos from lane supports as necessary. Complete Aquila at side shop by 1:30. Once you have it, the second support can gank.
Why isn't it used?
I've seen this used on some ranged agi carries. Not at the pro level, but definitely in pubs. Part of the issue with this is that getting to the side shop isn't always very safe or easy to do. If you are controlling creep equilibrium perfectly and are against a nast dual lane, triplane, or even a strong offlaner like batrider there's a strong risk to going there.
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Also you have 150g sunk into a 0 stat item and not enough regen
I sometimes do it with random gold when I can get enough regen and some gg branches or a faerie fire to make CSing that little bit better. Feels like every time I do it I regret it, but the greed is real.
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EPT
