EPTOG Discussion - Page 45
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MonkeyLarry
United States60 Posts
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nothingmuch
448 Posts
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/178633903?t=03h13m17s + Show Spoiler + guys in the tournament thread are saying OG/fans should be concerned it came so close. | ||
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NInoff
Bulgaria1105 Posts
On October 01 2017 16:37 nothingmuch wrote: Those were some scary good games against HR. Lo and behold, Notail carrying the shit out of several of them. Exactly what we agreed couple of days back - N0tail played very bad @ the start of the season and OG suffered. Once he shakes of the rust things look hell of a lot different. Espcially his Brew mid game was awesome. The two games he played mediocore OG lost to HR. As simple as that. | ||
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Sapaio
Denmark2037 Posts
Exactly what we agreed couple of days back - N0tail played very bad @ the start of the season and OG suffered. Once he shakes of the rust things look hell of a lot different. Espcially his Brew mid game was awesome. The two games he played mediocore OG lost to HR. As simple as that. N0tail has had a rough start of the new season because: 1) Rusty play 2) Illusion heroes getting nerfed 3) Moving to mid 4) OG focus on helping Reso, so little help for N0tail The rust has come of his play, but i think he still struggles to find heroes that he plays good from the mid. For me his biggest strength as a player is micro management (play with more units at the same time). So the games where he played Brew and Arch Warden (safelane i that game) he was awesome. The problem for me, is when he has more mobil heroes that jump around and farm and fight. The focus here from N0tail seems to learn Ember Spirit, properly because it has some micro management involved. I think he seems good enough now in the fighting part for the Hero. The problem is that he doesn't seem to farm well, jumping from creep stack to stack, and cutting waves in lane. That leads to underfarmed hero and not enough lane pressure. Hope this is something that can be learned. He did keep up good farm on a BloodSeeker but that doesn't have the jumping around. Think OG could use N0tail skills better with heroes like Lone Druid and Visage. Think both heroes fits his strengths and also can survive with pressure in the laning phase, because that is need as the team focus is on helping Reso. I think they don't used them because they are more early tower push and have drop of in late game, and for some reason OG don't like early push, although it is the most successful strategy right now | ||
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nothingmuch
448 Posts
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Sapaio
Denmark2037 Posts
No offense, but pretty sure Notail knows more about farming patterns than the combined posters of this thread. In fact, other pros have commended his farming patterns (in some VP interview iirc, not sure). His being "underfarmed" comes from his sacrificial play style where he leaves the safe farm to his #2 and goes for the more risky plays/farm. The problem arises when his team gets behind he always seems to feel he has to sacrifice/support even more which can lead to a vicious circle of feeding and him ending up being another support. If Reso then can't carry the game on his own (see Secret games) it all falls apart. I don't say N0tail farms, i really like him as a player. I also said part of problem is that OG only focus on giving Reso farm and then sacrifice N0tail. I am sure you can say that a pro player knows any aspect of the game bwtter then me and you wouldn't be wrong. But everybody here can see N0tail plays have been bad lately, at least i give a reason, so give me yours why he havent preform good. Also if he really is that good at farming with a mobil jumping hero like Ember Spirit or that type of hero( in my mind Queen of pain, Pug, Templar Assian you are welcome to add one) where he jumps around and farms great in pro match please link it, and i will admit i am wrong, | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
On October 04 2017 05:37 Sapaio wrote: I don't say N0tail farms, i really like him as a player. I also said part of problem is that OG only focus on giving Reso farm and then sacrifice N0tail. I am sure you can say that a pro player knows any aspect of the game bwtter then me and you wouldn't be wrong. But everybody here can see N0tail plays have been bad lately, at least i give a reason, so give me yours why he havent preform good. Also if he really is that good at farming with a mobil jumping hero like Ember Spirit or that type of hero( in my mind Queen of pain, Pug, Templar Assian you are welcome to add one) where he jumps around and farms great in pro match please link it, and i will admit i am wrong, if OG decides that TA or Queen is good for the game as opposed to one of their stronger heroes, then they will choose it, but there are always alternatives; there is always another spin you can add to make your hero viable. in that case however, they will have resolution or s4 play it because those are the heroes they play. to me, notail is the yes-man of the team where if someone speaks up and says, "we can probably kill timbersaw next wave, can we do it?", it seems notail will think about it and say, 'yes, let me move from safelane, reso shoves mid/jungles and checks rune, lich can farm near tower for a minute." more than being selfish/selfless/sacrificial it is not understanding the effect that having gradually lessened farm will have on any given game. the earlier you are willing to forego farm, or the earlier you are forced to do so, the more impact it has on the rest of the farm you get that game. it snowballs very quickly from there because then you are relying on one timing, and surviving a fight in order to make up some of it. HR games vs OG as much as i don't want to say it, OG played all of their games poorly. for once out of many attempts, their AW works because their opponents have inexperience dealing with split push (they also severely bungle two highground fights) and don't have the heroes to make it easier on themselves. the fact that it comes so close for these two teams shows that OG's current play is not part of the very elite. why it's okay to be a notail apologist is because you know he is working on it alongside his team. his style in the first place is not bad, but sometimes it is the only mode he knows and so they need to write off certain heroes being played in his positions. there are a better combination of heroes where a less-farmed carry is able to keep the other team just as low on relative farm. you can be sure for instance that they have done him on lifestealer in practice games when it was a top pick. but why, seemingly never, in officials? why, in his ember games is he getting his items so late despite skipping veil entirely? those are the kinds of questions you have to answer as fans and where the flame is coming from. we know how it feels to have certain items 3 minutes faster and can only imagine how much more it means in high pressure games. | ||
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nothingmuch
448 Posts
I also disagree with your assertion that OG played bad against HR. HR played really well, OG did not quite play as well as they used to (though Notail certainly played quite well in several of these games) and their AW game was nothing short of crushingly dominant. | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
their final game was a result of their opponents (HR) having a window to push, good momentum, aegis razor, batrider catch and all, and they ended up making the exact mistakes to make that game unwinnable. it started a little earlier than bat missing the lasso near mid rax area, but that was a feed that should never have happened. actually prior to this, HR is in position to take two sets of rax and the game. even after those highground bungles they are very close to winning the desperation fights because reso is dying in a fraction of a second. they (HR) indeed played very well there, extraordinarily so since not even two weeks ago, OG sweep them in two different series. i also don't expect OG to let them a team play a successful LD game against them again. but my basis of comparison comes from watching other regions closely and not just OG games. this goes for notable carry "1" position players too. they have been playing this same style for years now across 3 different mid players, including his own stints on the team. you think it will work all throughout this year? you can ignore my dig on notail's playing role on the team or in general, i'm trying to say the style that the team goes for, compared to the rest of the contending field, is limiting. my previous gripe was that they'd cycle through the same sets of heroes for ana the entire last half of the year. my god am i glad that was over, because it was brutal to see them draft an opening for storm spirit/ember last pick nearly every single game, or do TA/invoker for some months, with a once-in-a-while Alch against a weak team vs it (looking at you EG). i'm looking forward to how they progress, because i know they will do so. i just dread to see them trying to do some tricky naga enigma stuff because for a while they can't find something else that works. | ||
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nothingmuch
448 Posts
I think you're misremembering/mixing up the AW game- it was even for ~10 minutes and after that HR were completely unable to do anything whatsoever and got crushingly outfarmed all over the map with OG gaining more than 1k gold lead per minute, reminding me of Secret 2.0 times. | ||
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4ZakeN87
Sweden1071 Posts
On September 30 2017 22:57 MonkeyLarry wrote: I don't think moving s4 to mid would be optimal. To me, he was never really a farming mid, excluding his QoP maybe. He's more of a tempo controller in most, if not all, heroes. S4 is totally playing mid.. i going to give myself the crystal ball award of the year! :p | ||
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
I'd say that's like 90%mental game where the pressure got to him at TI and that tension hasn't let him yet . Although I havent seen last few games where they played well and just got meepo'd , maybe he's over it | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
notail is still doing the aggresif style (very new at the time of CDEC's TI run) of moving around. he took after that greatly for a good amount of time. now that the same sort of fighting heroes are resurfacing in the meta (though i haven't seen OG pick monkey yet), it seems that he's trying to make it work still. i think a good example of this style is where just recently he plays safelane lifestealer in a 1v1 vs a bat i believe. he is tping everywhere to contribute open wounds, but lacks the farm to deal any damage without sunstrike + ES spells hitting for almost the entirety of the game. his armlet + deso both clock in very late and he has very little impact on the hero for the remainder. after a certain point because you can't correctly predict every event in the game (aka, you should expect to take losses or expect play imperfectly for moments at a time), you will lose space, and farming without clear speed (maelstrom, blink heroes, battlefury, highly ungankable heroes) is potentially game losing even if it's right outside your base. this includes a hero like lifestealer vs. instant disables or vs. hard lockdown like bat + friend. the hero is meant to be ahead and his item choice was great as always, but his only role was to minus armor on towers and supports. he was no longer able to farm that game and had to rely on his teammates entirely to show on the map to fade bolt/contribute spells to clear out waves as they smoked, and is therefore relying on his team/composition to carry him. for the AW game, yes, that was the result of the game where HR can't do anything and get split on either sides of the map, stuck in their base. but i am speaking about the highground attempt at top, after mid is cleared. they have enough damage, clearly, at this very instant to lock down and kill either AW or weaver, and they can even fight if either or both buyback to defend rax. after this mistake of losing bat, they take a few fights where they are less than 300 damage away from killing resolution under disables, each time. away from towers, away from base, everything. the feed affected the result that you saw on screen and like someone else said, that was HR playing poorly more than OG playing well up until that point. afterwards though, the OG splitpush was great and was played perfectly. | ||
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ArcticRaven
France1406 Posts
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
i just want to see OG improve in all ways. it's going to be hard to ever find a carry on the same caliber of Miracle-, but resolution is capable just like any other carry hopes to be. if you think of OG, what do you imagine? Invoker, Terrorblade, Naga siren, Alchemist, Phoenix, Dazzle, Oracle, Slardar and now you have Earth spirit, Wisp, Monkey king, Batrider to add onto that. in the future we'll see Puck, Necro, and maybe even some Morphling. a lot of things about OG are iconic because they are stylistically so good at what they choose to do. some teams have that same aura, but their choice is seeming simply to "win", and they'll pick any heroes to do so. at OG's height, they were very close to Wings' level of doing that. but the bar for the level of play is going to raise again even after the next major patch. if OG are able to reach that same pinnacle of play again, being a fan of the team is the same as being a fan of DotA. | ||
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Nikto
Slovakia410 Posts
 bu seriously, being a fan of any dota team makes you a fan of dota, you writing what you wrot above is like disrespecting the others | ||
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nothingmuch
448 Posts
On October 09 2017 22:32 nanaoei wrote: i also want to add that i appreciate all of you, and i'm sorry if i write opinionated and convoluted stuff for no reason. i just want to see OG improve in all ways. it's going to be hard to ever find a carry on the same caliber of Miracle-, but resolution is capable just like any other carry hopes to be. if you think of OG, what do you imagine? Invoker, Terrorblade, Naga siren, Alchemist, Phoenix, Dazzle, Oracle, Slardar and now you have Earth spirit, Wisp, Monkey king, Batrider to add onto that. in the future we'll see Puck, Necro, and maybe even some Morphling. a lot of things about OG are iconic because they are stylistically so good at what they choose to do. some teams have that same aura, but their choice is seeming simply to "win", and they'll pick any heroes to do so. at OG's height, they were very close to Wings' level of doing that. but the bar for the level of play is going to raise again even after the next major patch. if OG are able to reach that same pinnacle of play again, being a fan of the team is the same as being a fan of DotA. Here's beer in your eye! | ||
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Sadir
Vatican City State1176 Posts
if Jerax just didn't miss his first roll on NS... | ||
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Sapaio
Denmark2037 Posts
On November 17 2017 16:48 Sadir wrote: really close yesterday if Jerax just didn't miss his first roll on NS... Think he played bad all game. Also think some of the blame is on Fly's draft. Not banning WW and picking PL, i know that Reso got bad start in lane because of Jerax but think PL is just a pretty weak hero atm and not good choice as last pick. | ||
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