EPTTeam Secret Discussion - Page 169
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dadde
Italy314 Posts
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dmnum
Brazil6910 Posts
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
On June 08 2016 08:34 dmnum wrote: I guess that's what you get for kicking players after winning a Major. Pretty sure the kicks actually happened after they placed joint last at DPL. Pretty sure Shanghai was their only good placing in four months. Dunno why people keep pushing this narrative tbh. | ||
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dmnum
Brazil6910 Posts
The "internal conflict" angle is also fucking stupid, because RTZ isn't exactly known for being a great teammate. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11076 Posts
Even if EE's losing to CIS teams now. edit2: Thorin's talk made me really excited for some underdog story coming into TI. Imo best sort of fan kreliminology about things we dont know about. | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
On June 08 2016 09:19 dmnum wrote: Then they jumped the gun. You don't simply kick two players because you lost a minor tournament just a week after winning a Major. The "internal conflict" angle is also fucking stupid, because RTZ isn't exactly known for being a great teammate. But the whole point is that Shanghai was a blip in performance and DPL proved that. Secret had big issues for months. All of the people Arteezy is currently teamed with have teamed with him before. As far as I'm aware, none of them have have ever suggested having any problems with him. So I dunno why you think you can make better decisions than Secret, who went into this well informed. And I mean, what fights has he had? Kuroky, who's fought with others and whom Puppey has apparently said was totally at fault with the Xboct affair. And PPD... after he left the team, surely a time for unbiased assessment. Given that PPD was apparently not put off by his apparent awfulness as a teammate to the extent that he changed a TI winning roster to include Arteezy again specifically for team cohesion, I dunno how the idea that it's obvious Arteezy is hard to work with is so clear. Circumstances and players change. Maybe Arteezy is being a terrible teammate. Or hey, maybe PLD is. Or Envy or Puppey or Universe. Sure. But I'm not seeing any evidence. But whatever. People will continue to think players are stupid and understand their team dynamics and potential far worse than fans. | ||
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nayumi
Australia6499 Posts
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On June 08 2016 11:54 FuzzyJAM wrote: But the whole point is that Shanghai was a blip in performance and DPL proved that. DPL proved nothing. DPL was a single-elimination 8 team bracket where teams were eliminated after losing a single BO3 series. The "four months" where old Secret sucked included off-season and holiday season so it was more or less just a month long slump. Many other teams sucked around that time, too. There was a qualifier where OG, Liquid and Secret all got beaten by tier 2-3 teams and had to play together in a "last chance qualifier" group. Ask yourself what is more likely, that observers can't (correctly) guess what's happening within a team, or that most Dota players are simply godawful at managing relationships within the team and nurturing a constructive atmosphere? The evidence of the latter has leaked into the public or was straight up obvious so many times now that the mantra of "players know best" is becoming worn out very quickly. | ||
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Xendarii
327 Posts
On June 08 2016 09:11 FuzzyJAM wrote: Pretty sure the kicks actually happened after they placed joint last at DPL. Pretty sure Shanghai was their only good placing in four months. Dunno why people keep pushing this narrative tbh. That's pure speculation and I'm actually convinced that you're wrong. They might have THOUGHT about kicking someone during the period where their results were lackluster, but there's no way they didn't change their minds after winning one of the biggest tournaments of the year. I'm a 100 % sure they just wanted to play with RTZ and he was available, otherwise they wouldn't change their roster, even if Puppey had some issues with w33. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
On June 08 2016 15:40 Xendarii wrote: That's pure speculation and I'm actually convinced that you're wrong. They might have THOUGHT about kicking someone during the period where their results were lackluster, but there's no way they didn't change their minds after winning one of the biggest tournaments of the year. I'm a 100 % sure they just wanted to play with RTZ and he was available, otherwise they wouldn't change their roster, even if Puppey had some issues with w33. Idk what he said that can even be pure speculation, he was just stating results. To me it seems pretty clear that 1) they wouldn't have made changes had they not had those poor tournament results before and after the major and 2) they wouldn't have made any changes had it not been specifically Arteezy who wanted to join. Idk how big a role Dotapit specifically played or if at that point they would have taken Arteezy either way, but anyway I don't think they would have taken him had they not had 4 LANs in total where their performance was questionable at best. But those performances don't mean they would have changed just for the sake of change to get anyone, considering they won Shanghai in between. But for me going back and harping on the roster change is a bit hard. Fans can evaluate some stuff from outside, but I find it hard to look into a team and understand exactly what it was like in that team at a certain point. Like if Puppey&EE/whoever thought that they somewhat lucked out at Shanghai by gaining a drafting edge temporarily and they don't see the team doing great 4-5 months down the line at TI, I don't think changing is a mistake. Obviously it is a risk still, and this far it has turned out miserably. It doesn't even mean that your original evaluation as far as the old team goes was incorrect. The bigger question for me rather than just harping on the change itself is what have they been doing in the team for the last 2.5 months or so to show up in this kind of a shape. There are more teams on a good competitive level nowadays than before, but still I doubt even the biggest doubters of this lineup would have thought they will just lose series after series. Them coming to the major and placing 4th or something would have been sufficient for reddit to blow up in "was not so smart to change was it???" memes, instead we get 3 tournaments in a row where they are last / close to last. | ||
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il MeMbro
8 Posts
There has to be something really bad and unsolvable within this team to bring them to such a ridiculous level of performance. I expect something to happen as soon as this major ends; it will be very weird if they just silently continue to stay together until TI; even if they have a small chance to get a direct invite, it seems clear that they won't perform there, so why not to try with a different roster from open qualifiers. it seems like bone7 was right | ||
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On June 07 2016 23:55 Nerfed wrote: can we have rtz kicked plox Tweets he sorry after yesterday game. Now he has removed all secret association from his twitter. Make of that what you will. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
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il MeMbro
8 Posts
On June 08 2016 21:57 spudde123 wrote: Said this in LR thread but pretty sure he didn't have any Secret pictures on twitter even before this. he had an anime character with his face pasted, and the secret logo, but yea, i dont think it means something. Ppd also changed his profile picture, and now he has one with rtz.. i think he's just messing with reddit | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
On June 08 2016 22:11 Pandemona wrote: Im pretty sure i remember "i play dota 2 for Team Secret" on there. Oh, that may be. I don't remember at all what the text was, I just remember some battery picture | ||
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dmnum
Brazil6910 Posts
On June 08 2016 11:54 FuzzyJAM wrote: But the whole point is that Shanghai was a blip in performance and DPL proved that. Secret had big issues for months. All of the people Arteezy is currently teamed with have teamed with him before. As far as I'm aware, none of them have have ever suggested having any problems with him. So I dunno why you think you can make better decisions than Secret, who went into this well informed. And I mean, what fights has he had? Kuroky, who's fought with others and whom Puppey has apparently said was totally at fault with the Xboct affair. And PPD... after he left the team, surely a time for unbiased assessment. Given that PPD was apparently not put off by his apparent awfulness as a teammate to the extent that he changed a TI winning roster to include Arteezy again specifically for team cohesion, I dunno how the idea that it's obvious Arteezy is hard to work with is so clear. Circumstances and players change. Maybe Arteezy is being a terrible teammate. Or hey, maybe PLD is. Or Envy or Puppey or Universe. Sure. But I'm not seeing any evidence. But whatever. People will continue to think players are stupid and understand their team dynamics and potential far worse than fans. If you only blip at majors, then what's the big problem? When did Puppey "apparently" say Kuroky was wrong at the XBOCT issue? Also, the idea that because the players are involved in the situation their opinion is always right is, with all due respect, ridiculous. Secret's team coordination is awful, the playstyle of their 2 and 1 overlap and more often than not they play like they have no idea about what to do. In light of those results, no matter how much I like the team they can and should be criticized. | ||
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Dysisa
Sweden2376 Posts
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
On June 09 2016 05:27 dmnum wrote: If you only blip at majors, then what's the big problem? When did Puppey "apparently" say Kuroky was wrong at the XBOCT issue? Also, the idea that because the players are involved in the situation their opinion is always right is, with all due respect, ridiculous. Secret's team coordination is awful, the playstyle of their 2 and 1 overlap and more often than not they play like they have no idea about what to do. In light of those results, no matter how much I like the team they can and should be criticized. The problem is that you want to win TI and you want to build a team that's most likely to win TI. If there are major problems on the team and you can only win tournaments by outperforming your average by a significant margin there's good reason to switch. It's been stated publicly by Xboct that Puppey has blamed Kuroky 100%. You might think Xboct is just lying (odd thing to do, but w/e), hence "apparently". And I have not once said that players are always right. That would indeed be ridiculous. I'm saying that outsiders shouldn't think they know better than players about interpersonal dynamics. If you want to criticise their play, go ahead - there's more than enough material to use. | ||
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haxhax
125 Posts
On June 09 2016 07:06 Dysisa wrote: Things are brewing, and very likely involving Team Secret https://twitter.com/bOne7DotA/status/740603524426403840 He's probably referring to Zai leaving them for EG. | ||
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