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babysimba
10466 Posts
Just let Sing be the space creating guy be it on whatever lane, since he and Qojqva can just play either lanes. The team's farm allocation will look so much better. Moving bulba back to offlaner and Sing to support can work in the same way too. Well support-wise, no matter who plays, they are all pos4 play-making supports and not pos6. Although EGM won't be as rich as he was in Alliance, it's best if they still try to make him the richer support in every game. | ||
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hunter_x
Germany2762 Posts
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TRAP[yoo]
Hungary6026 Posts
On November 11 2014 21:24 hunter_x wrote: Lol i say something against RTZ and 5 min later, there is already a EG Fanboy here defending him. Puck and Visage? Never saw that even once. You can not count in the heroes he played once or twice. Thats not the definition of Hero pool for me. Fact is he only plays farming mids, and no utility Heroes. So its not ok that he says other People only play a few Heroes. He could say that about pajkatt maybe bot not Qojqva. whats the big deal about rtz playing farming mids? eg plays accordingly and they are one of the best teams and qojqva is not a dotagod yet that can play sooo many heroes on the highest level. just like cty in china he got way too much hype | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
Qojqva has played a lot of different heroes and different roles, but if you are not able to make your team play around those heroes well enough for you to win events, why does it matter? I don't mean that it's only Qojqva's fault or anything as obviously he plays with 4 other people and the team has to work as a whole, but just that I don't find versatility anything to brag about unless it increases your chance of winning. | ||
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Count9
China10928 Posts
On November 11 2014 20:41 hunter_x wrote: I had to laugh hard, when i read the Part about Qojqva. Because Arteezy himself is a guy who only plays some Heroes in lane...farming. Pretty sure that was his point. EG is a team that was built around a very very greedy mid that just wants to sit on a corner of the map/jungle and farm until he has certain items faster than he should with jungle/ancient stacks. TT is just a team that got thrown together without too much foresight on how the team will do their roles and how much farm everyone gets at certain pts in time. I actually dunno what happened to EGM, he used to be a great greedy support and a great offlaner but when tinker tried 1 qojqva, 2 sing, 3 EGM, 4 pajkatt, 5 bulba (which I like much better than the current incarnation) it was pretty obvious all EGM and bulba would do is feed and it didn't work out. Looking at EG, ppd's always last on networth and stacking everything in existence for zai/rtz, fear's playing fighting heroes in safe lane about as much as he plays "real" farmers, and universe is pretty much the definition of winning team fights with bat/jak/void/ds/whatever so the team can just go do things w/ rtz appearing once or twice to take rosh or a tower. TT has qojqva that just wants to farm on basically any hero/buy a midas, pajkatt that just wants to farm on any hero/buy a midas, bulba/EGM feeding (granted, it's pretty easy to feed when 2/3 of your cores have midas and 1/3 is somewhere random) and giving up objectives so it's harder and harder for pajkatt/qojqva to farm, and sing somewhere on the map by himself either feeding or creating space (unless he's jak or veno or something, then it's more "let's go push a tower owait I'm/bulba/egm (is) dead again") Pretty sure TT's problems would be solved if they just had 1 guy dedicated to learning the offlane and just take the 1/2 months of loses for the long term while the guy learns (whoever it is, bulba/sing/pajkatt/egm prob not qojqva) and then figure out the 5 position from there (sing's 5 was actually pretty decent from the two games he played it, but I dunno how it'll go if he's the one calling plays). Feels like it doesn't matter who they send offlane, the guy just doesn't do enough most of the time. Ofc that can happen to anyone in offlane, e.g. when universe/funn1k gets shut down, albeit rarely, they kinda just don't do anything for the rest of the game, but a dedicated offlaner would have that happen much more rarely. Anyways, I was always on the boat of "TT is not nearly as good as ppl think they are" after they won a couple games but now I guess I'm on the boat of "TT is not nearly as bad as ppl think they are" after they lost a couple games. Right now the scene is EG/Secret <---- Big gap ----> C9 <----- Small gap ----> Na'vi, TT + Clusterfuck of teams that only play well every 4th day like Empire, VP, VP.P etc. so it's not like they're doing terribly. Definitely too hopeful if people thought they'd be the best team though. | ||
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cuckoo
595 Posts
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NInoff
Bulgaria1105 Posts
On November 12 2014 01:20 cuckoo wrote: i think it's more like eg/secret < small gap > c9 < big gap > tt/navi Nah the big gap is between eg/secret and c9, since they are underperformng lately. TT and NaVi can easily be in the C9 group, but they are playing way too inconsistent. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
On November 12 2014 01:30 NInoff wrote: Nah the big gap is between eg/secret and c9, since they are underperformng lately. TT and NaVi can easily be in the C9 group, but they are playing way too inconsistent. c9 has had occasional sloppy online play throughout their existence, but now with Fata their LAN results have been very consistent and strong. I doubt it is random that they've been top3 in all 4 LANs they've attended with this roster (although at ESL all they had to was to beat SNA at the LAN itself so it isn't that impressive). I suppose we'll see if they are "underperforming" at Dreamleague, but personally I wouldn't put much weight in a few online losses. Though after SL they've gone 3-3 against EG for example even online so I'm not sure where the underperforming can even be seen, although the series against Secret was definitely underwhelming. But I don't really disagree with the categories themselves really. EG and Secret are ahead, out of those c9 matches up against EG pretty well (although they've still lost 2-1 on LAN the last few times), but against Secret c9 has really struggled in official games at least. I suppose Dreamleague will give further indication on how c9 matches up against EG and TT for example on LAN. Unfortunate that Secret isn't there. | ||
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cuckoo
595 Posts
Sing support owned game 1 | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
On November 12 2014 06:20 cuckoo wrote: Good games today, second game outdrafted but gameplay overwall was good. Sing support owned game 1 Sing's SK is really good. Again people who think he has a shallow hero pool make me wonder how much they know about him. Tinker has just not been using him well (and he's been playing progressively worse, no lie). That said his Jugg build was...well his pub Jugg build. Not really a fan. | ||
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Doraemon
Australia14949 Posts
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
On November 11 2014 21:24 hunter_x wrote: Lol i say something against RTZ and 5 min later, there is already a EG Fanboy here defending him. Puck and Visage? Never saw that even once. You can not count in the heroes he played once or twice. Thats not the definition of Hero pool for me. Fact is he only plays farming mids, and no utility Heroes. So its not ok that he says other People only play a few Heroes. He could say that about pajkatt maybe bot not Qojqva. RTZ is actually famous for his puck. He used to play TA/Puck/Wr/QoP all the time. He certainly has a pretty wide hero pool. I don't know what the person said that you are arguing with but I'm sure none of the players mentioned really suffer from a weak hero pool. | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
On November 12 2014 08:30 Yamulo wrote: RTZ is actually famous for his puck. He used to play TA/Puck/Wr/QoP all the time. He certainly has a pretty wide hero pool. I don't know what the person said that you are arguing with but I'm sure none of the players mentioned really suffer from a weak hero pool. What in pubs? His esports record in Puck is pretty weak. Good winrate but shit stats compared to top Puck players and not even twenty games. ALL of these players have a huge hero pool defined a certain way. I see no evidence Arteezy's Puck is capable of top-tier play. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On November 12 2014 08:44 FHDH wrote: What in pubs? His esports record in Puck is pretty weak. Good winrate but shit stats compared to top Puck players and not even twenty games. ALL of these players have a huge hero pool defined a certain way. I see no evidence Arteezy's Puck is capable of top-tier play. I think most people refer to his play on Speed at MLG Columbus when they talk about him on non-farming mids. That's basically the difference when people talk about hero pools. Arteezy is basically playing the kind of heroes that EG needs him to, to fit the rest of team, and has generally done a standout job during each metagame shift. Qojqva has a lot of heroes on record, but plays very few how the team needs him to. Same applies to a lot of the players on Tinker, they have heroes on their record, but don't perform well enough on most of them. | ||
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Murkinlol
United States366 Posts
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Saki [NETOGE]
United States235 Posts
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cuckoo
595 Posts
like even Bulldog that people said could only play 3 heroes back in 2011 has played everyhero that's given to him | ||
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Furikawari
France2522 Posts
On November 12 2014 19:09 cuckoo wrote: i honestly think saying a player has a small hero pool is so stupid, because it's rarely truth like even Bulldog that people said could only play 3 heroes back in 2011 has played everyhero that's given to him Playing a hero is one thing, playing a hro several times and consistently having a strong impact on the game is another one. For example Sing can play Jakiro and does it in pro games, would you say Jakiro is in his hero pool? | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
On November 12 2014 09:49 WolfintheSheep wrote: I think most people refer to his play on Speed at MLG Columbus when they talk about him on non-farming mids. That's basically the difference when people talk about hero pools. Arteezy is basically playing the kind of heroes that EG needs him to, to fit the rest of team, and has generally done a standout job during each metagame shift. Qojqva has a lot of heroes on record, but plays very few how the team needs him to. Same applies to a lot of the players on Tinker, they have heroes on their record, but don't perform well enough on most of them. That is spot on mate. I actually think that rtz response was pretty fair, and it was some constructive advice really. What Qojfa does is literally farming all day all night, and pajkatt is competing with him in the farming aspect, one of them (or both) very often come late to help for team fight or they get ganked and died solo. And you get sing safelane in which he prefers more on fighting rather than farming all day (well he couldn't anyway because qojfa is taking the resources and same when pajkatt mid). Meanwhile their offlane performance is nothing outstanding (qojfa will go farm regardless he did well or bad for the lane rofl; EGM has limited skill/hero pool so far i have seen on offlane). I have been saying bulba is mediocre at support for so long, it may or may not has something to do with his hero choices or the playstyle. Overall i think TT's most prominent issue is their hero pool, that they have a fixed playstyle on certain heroes they play (/that they think that they are good at). But at that competitive level, you need some flexibility to make the line up works (if they wouldn't change the hero choices). Let EGM go #5 or #4.5 because he is good at doing that; and then build team around sing/bulba limited hero pool. Not saying that qojfa/pajkatt can play alot other heroes but at the current state they are fine because at least they are good/acceptable at what they are good at. | ||
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Smashdotz
Singapore14 Posts
On November 12 2014 21:51 BurningSera wrote: That is spot on mate. I actually think that rtz response was pretty fair, and it was some constructive advice really. What Qojfa does is literally farming all day all night, and pajkatt is competing with him in the farming aspect, one of them (or both) very often come late to help for team fight or they get ganked and died solo. And you get sing safelane in which he prefers more on fighting rather than farming all day (well he couldn't anyway because qojfa is taking the resources and same when pajkatt mid). Meanwhile their offlane performance is nothing outstanding (qojfa will go farm regardless he did well or bad for the lane rofl; EGM has limited skill/hero pool so far i have seen on offlane). I have been saying bulba is mediocre at support for so long, it may or may not has something to do with his hero choices or the playstyle. Overall i think TT's most prominent issue is their hero pool, that they have a fixed playstyle on certain heroes they play (/that they think that they are good at). But at that competitive level, you need some flexibility to make the line up works (if they wouldn't change the hero choices). Let EGM go #5 or #4.5 because he is good at doing that; and then build team around sing/bulba limited hero pool. Not saying that qojfa/pajkatt can play alot other heroes but at the current state they are fine because at least they are good/acceptable at what they are good at. Agree with the majority of the post where their players are just either playing too greedy and paying a price for it and feeding in the end. But don't think sing/bulba limited hero pool is the problem. They played games where Sing swapped into position 4 with bulba going offlane. Both players can play quite a variety of heroes. Just that the picks aren't coming for them. The picks are mostly centered around either PJ or Qoj getting lots of farm and hope for the best in the late game ( If the late game even arrives ). So either one of them needs to give up farming that hard and make some space for the team | ||
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