|
On November 04 2014 05:09 Count9 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 03:14 AwfuL_ wrote:On November 03 2014 04:39 DucK- wrote:
I think Tinker's problem is that they have 2 cores that crave farm and passive play. This puts a lot of pressure on their third core and 2 supports to create the space. It's kind of a shitty formula because the 2 supports are often not given anything, while Sing is not always given a good lane to start.
C9 worked because Aui was always given farm, and Sing + Bone were cores that like to be active. And Envy is not exactly a passive player too. Does this sound familiar to some other team? + Show Spoiler +TT's basically last year's Team Liquid, there's an improvement in player skill in the support department but other than that i don't see any improvements other than that the players actually like playing with eachother Problem is really with leadership I think. They do the "give the player w/e he wants" draft way too much where Pajkatt is Viper all the time even if it's not against heavy magic dmg, Qojqva is one of 3 heroes that rotates, and so on and so forth. Feels like they should be finding drafts that suit their players but also has good synergy (like EG, VG, or NB drafts) rather than just give the player w/e he wants 5 times. Similarly, in games they play like a 1+1+1+1+1 instead of as 5 where it's usually pajkatt/qojqva farming somewhere on the map alone and bulba/egm/sing feeding on the other part of the map alone. That said, they're doing way better than TL did even with the disappointing lan finals (kinda weird when a group stage --> lan tournament's second place is disappointing) but eventually individual skill is not gonna pull them out of holes anymore (like when sing did nothing on puck in winner's finals or qojqva forgot how to play tide in grand finals). Calling them the new Liquid is pretty far off though. Liquid was hellbent on trying things that just didn't work (nyx, ET, tc on mirana, fluff ench every game etc.)
Ya I agree, it's mostly drafts and also play style. I feel like their decision making in the late game is great, but often times they itemize poorly or just draft poorly. Seems like they are trying to do too much at the moment. Instead of having their 3 cores rotate roles or the time, they should just try to focus on a set style and set roles. After they get better at that they can begin to experiment more. It's got to be difficult for someone like Qojqva to play batrider or centaur one game, and then a farming LC or morph or something the next. Same for Sing, to go to something like an offlane Jakiro or Veno to a carry mid tiny can't be easy to do. Qoj and Sing are always having to change roles while Pajkatt is just playing viper or slark or something yet they don't get aggressive with these heroes. Again, I don't think they need to shake up their roster but if I was to pick a player to drop it'd be Pajkatt just because I think it will allow other players to play in more comfortable roles. For example Qojqva farming as the 1, Sing being an active 2. Bulba can offlane or support and then EGM supporting as well.
|
Not to flame this team or anything but Team Tinker reminds me a lot of Team Liquid in a really bad way.
|
On November 04 2014 15:09 Murkinlol wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 05:09 Count9 wrote:On November 04 2014 03:14 AwfuL_ wrote:On November 03 2014 04:39 DucK- wrote:
I think Tinker's problem is that they have 2 cores that crave farm and passive play. This puts a lot of pressure on their third core and 2 supports to create the space. It's kind of a shitty formula because the 2 supports are often not given anything, while Sing is not always given a good lane to start.
C9 worked because Aui was always given farm, and Sing + Bone were cores that like to be active. And Envy is not exactly a passive player too. Does this sound familiar to some other team? + Show Spoiler +TT's basically last year's Team Liquid, there's an improvement in player skill in the support department but other than that i don't see any improvements other than that the players actually like playing with eachother Problem is really with leadership I think. They do the "give the player w/e he wants" draft way too much where Pajkatt is Viper all the time even if it's not against heavy magic dmg, Qojqva is one of 3 heroes that rotates, and so on and so forth. Feels like they should be finding drafts that suit their players but also has good synergy (like EG, VG, or NB drafts) rather than just give the player w/e he wants 5 times. Similarly, in games they play like a 1+1+1+1+1 instead of as 5 where it's usually pajkatt/qojqva farming somewhere on the map alone and bulba/egm/sing feeding on the other part of the map alone. That said, they're doing way better than TL did even with the disappointing lan finals (kinda weird when a group stage --> lan tournament's second place is disappointing) but eventually individual skill is not gonna pull them out of holes anymore (like when sing did nothing on puck in winner's finals or qojqva forgot how to play tide in grand finals). Calling them the new Liquid is pretty far off though. Liquid was hellbent on trying things that just didn't work (nyx, ET, tc on mirana, fluff ench every game etc.) Ya I agree, it's mostly drafts and also play style. I feel like their decision making in the late game is great, but often times they itemize poorly or just draft poorly. Seems like they are trying to do too much at the moment. Instead of having their 3 cores rotate roles or the time, they should just try to focus on a set style and set roles. After they get better at that they can begin to experiment more. It's got to be difficult for someone like Qojqva to play batrider or centaur one game, and then a farming LC or morph or something the next. Same for Sing, to go to something like an offlane Jakiro or Veno to a carry mid tiny can't be easy to do. Qoj and Sing are always having to change roles while Pajkatt is just playing viper or slark or something yet they don't get aggressive with these heroes. Again, I don't think they need to shake up their roster but if I was to pick a player to drop it'd be Pajkatt just because I think it will allow other players to play in more comfortable roles. For example Qojqva farming as the 1, Sing being an active 2. Bulba can offlane or support and then EGM supporting as well.
If the Bulba EGM support duo synergizes well, then they should leave it at that. But I am not sure if that is the case. I wouldn't mind Bulba in the offlane if the supporting works.
I remember N0tail saying that the team work of the supports on the team is a key factor in top level play. Now I'd like to imagine that I know other pro's have corroborated this.
|
On November 04 2014 23:03 Badjas wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 15:09 Murkinlol wrote:On November 04 2014 05:09 Count9 wrote:On November 04 2014 03:14 AwfuL_ wrote:On November 03 2014 04:39 DucK- wrote:
I think Tinker's problem is that they have 2 cores that crave farm and passive play. This puts a lot of pressure on their third core and 2 supports to create the space. It's kind of a shitty formula because the 2 supports are often not given anything, while Sing is not always given a good lane to start.
C9 worked because Aui was always given farm, and Sing + Bone were cores that like to be active. And Envy is not exactly a passive player too. Does this sound familiar to some other team? + Show Spoiler +TT's basically last year's Team Liquid, there's an improvement in player skill in the support department but other than that i don't see any improvements other than that the players actually like playing with eachother Problem is really with leadership I think. They do the "give the player w/e he wants" draft way too much where Pajkatt is Viper all the time even if it's not against heavy magic dmg, Qojqva is one of 3 heroes that rotates, and so on and so forth. Feels like they should be finding drafts that suit their players but also has good synergy (like EG, VG, or NB drafts) rather than just give the player w/e he wants 5 times. Similarly, in games they play like a 1+1+1+1+1 instead of as 5 where it's usually pajkatt/qojqva farming somewhere on the map alone and bulba/egm/sing feeding on the other part of the map alone. That said, they're doing way better than TL did even with the disappointing lan finals (kinda weird when a group stage --> lan tournament's second place is disappointing) but eventually individual skill is not gonna pull them out of holes anymore (like when sing did nothing on puck in winner's finals or qojqva forgot how to play tide in grand finals). Calling them the new Liquid is pretty far off though. Liquid was hellbent on trying things that just didn't work (nyx, ET, tc on mirana, fluff ench every game etc.) Ya I agree, it's mostly drafts and also play style. I feel like their decision making in the late game is great, but often times they itemize poorly or just draft poorly. Seems like they are trying to do too much at the moment. Instead of having their 3 cores rotate roles or the time, they should just try to focus on a set style and set roles. After they get better at that they can begin to experiment more. It's got to be difficult for someone like Qojqva to play batrider or centaur one game, and then a farming LC or morph or something the next. Same for Sing, to go to something like an offlane Jakiro or Veno to a carry mid tiny can't be easy to do. Qoj and Sing are always having to change roles while Pajkatt is just playing viper or slark or something yet they don't get aggressive with these heroes. Again, I don't think they need to shake up their roster but if I was to pick a player to drop it'd be Pajkatt just because I think it will allow other players to play in more comfortable roles. For example Qojqva farming as the 1, Sing being an active 2. Bulba can offlane or support and then EGM supporting as well. If the Bulba EGM support duo synergizes well, then they should leave it at that. But I am not sure if that is the case. I wouldn't mind Bulba in the offlane if the supporting works. I remember N0tail saying that the team work of the supports on the team is a key factor in top level play. Now I'd like to imagine that I know other pro's have corroborated this.
The problem is that Bulba's best position is probably offlane but no one else on his team wants to play support. It's like TI4 TL. Bulba sucked it up to accommodate the team.
Also the ET draft worked and eventually got adopted to everyone lol
|
Moar liek Teamerino Stinkerino amirite?
User was warned for this post
|
On November 04 2014 06:26 AwfuL_ wrote:
I don't think they're doing way better than Liquid would have done. They're in the same 'high expectations mediocre results' place as Liquid was. Perhaps a bit better on LAN but they've only been to a few so it's hard to tell.
Obviously i'm not incluiding the time when Liquid was literally losing every game due to the players essentially not wanting to be on the same team anymore.
BTW Liquid is 9-5 with TC Mirana and also positive with nyx offlane iirc. Certainly not with ET and Fluff ench though.
I mean... TT has qualified for the same amount of top tournaments as TL played between all of TI3-TI4. Besides bombing out of Summit with bangfish and akroma, they've qualified for SL lan, D2CL lan, and looking good for Dreamleague lan whereas most of the tourneys TL was going to were either invites or really really easy qualifications (6 teams, 4 get through). 2nd at D2CL is already better than the best result TL had during all of TI3 up until TI4 (or equal if we're counting MLG TKO) and TT has been a team for 2 months.
Even before the disaster period if you dropped TL into EU qualifiers for everything I don't think they would've qualified for more than one tournament, let alone almost all of them. TT's a way better team imo, even though there are obvious similarities and they still have a lot of work to do.
I really hate looking at records to say X or Y works because there's no metric of winrate when the games "matter" (lan finals, qualifier finals, etc). They're competent on the heroes, but obviously TC is not as good at mirana as his 9-5 record says he is and it definitely didn't work in multiple important games for liquid. (Actually, where are you getting that stat? Since we're talking about liquid a year ago I can't find his mirana winrate from late 2013 to mid 2014 anywhere)
|
On November 04 2014 23:26 Count9 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 06:26 AwfuL_ wrote:
I don't think they're doing way better than Liquid would have done. They're in the same 'high expectations mediocre results' place as Liquid was. Perhaps a bit better on LAN but they've only been to a few so it's hard to tell.
Obviously i'm not incluiding the time when Liquid was literally losing every game due to the players essentially not wanting to be on the same team anymore.
BTW Liquid is 9-5 with TC Mirana and also positive with nyx offlane iirc. Certainly not with ET and Fluff ench though. I mean... TT has qualified for the same amount of top tournaments as TL played between all of TI3-TI4. Besides bombing out of Summit with bangfish and akroma, they've qualified for SL lan, D2CL lan, and looking good for Dreamleague lan whereas most of the tourneys TL was going to were either invites or really really easy qualifications (6 teams, 4 get through). 2nd at D2CL is already better than the best result TL had during all of TI3 up until TI4 (or equal if we're counting MLG TKO) and TT has been a team for 2 months. Even before the disaster period if you dropped TL into EU qualifiers for everything I don't think they would've qualified for more than one tournament, let alone almost all of them. TT's a way better team imo, even though there are obvious similarities and they still have a lot of work to do. I really hate looking at records to say X or Y works because there's no metric of winrate when the games "matter" (lan finals, qualifier finals, etc). They're competent on the heroes, but obviously TC is not as good at mirana as his 9-5 record says he is and it definitely didn't work in multiple important games for liquid. (Actually, where are you getting that stat? Since we're talking about liquid a year ago I can't find his mirana winrate from late 2013 to mid 2014 anywhere)
Go on DatDota and look up TC. Then search Mirana. The stats are skewed to the positive because TL did quite well at TI4 Quals with the mirana pick.
It's arguable as to whether TT is "way better" as D2CL 2nd is different than most other LANs. Also TL qualified for Dreamleague's first finals which is a much more comparable period of comparison than the post winter TL.
|
for how long they are gonna lose games because bulba think supports need to be passsive in the early game?
|
On November 08 2014 04:31 cuckoo wrote:
for how long they are gonna lose games because bulba think supports need to be passsive in the early game?
kick bulba (and get a good captain), win ti5
|
i actually think he's playing better than egm, he just can't draft/make calls (not even sure if it's him, but their playstyle suits what he says in interviews)
|
I'm not coming into this trying to offend anyone but i'm genuinely curious to any legitimate Team Tinker fan about whether they think this team has any chance of being a legitimate tournament contender?
If anything from the games i'm watching, this team is playing progressively playing worse and couldn't look any more lost.
|
They need to go back to the drawing board.
|
Didn't pay too close attention to the games yesterday, but I enjoyed watching them (versus vp.polar). Various things went quite well. Some things didn't. Perhaps the drafting wasn't strong enough. Perhaps some gank awareness was off. Not being apologetic here just saying that I don't know where the wheels came off (;
|
I'm really glad this team is being exposed, especially qojqva and singsing. I'm sure it'll delude some people who were already biased fanboys even more, but maybe some people will realize how mediocre this team was destined to be.
|
Something is wrong. Their lategame desigion making is gone, they are making a lot of individual mistakes (especially Pajkatt and EGM - they are feeding a lot), and instead of improving the team is looking weaker. Whatever they changed in the last week has to be undone.
|
On November 09 2014 17:57 Ack1027 wrote:
I'm really glad this team is being exposed, especially qojqva and singsing. I'm sure it'll delude some people who were already biased fanboys even more, but maybe some people will realize how mediocre this team was destined to be.
The hate is real.
|
|
|
I think the team needs a plan to follow every game. It just seems everyone has their own little agenda. Randomly getting picked off is weird. Farming hard but not exerting map control is pretty weird too.
|
On November 09 2014 17:57 Ack1027 wrote:
I'm really glad this team is being exposed, especially qojqva and singsing. I'm sure it'll delude some people who were already biased fanboys even more, but maybe some people will realize how mediocre this team was destined to be.
brutal but honest
|
Tinker is playing less like a pro team and more like a pubstack. They didn't start this way. It's really curious.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
