On October 26 2014 07:57 Racket wrote: Many people are confused by the performances showed by Team Secret feeling even more certain than before that letting Ppy and Kky go was a mistake and hating Xboct more than ever.
What most people fail to remember is that the main issue of the team before splitting was bad drafts and even worse support performances, this last thing being acknowledged even by Puppey in interviews (the movements as he called it). Plus Xboct performing good and bad as he does now. Leaving drafts aside, what the team lacked the most was regularity, both on supports and carries.
It was crystal clear that a change was needed and, given the friendship between parts, the supports had to go (I was against this too but what could we, the fans, do).
Now, let's be clear: - As far as it goes, the team is performing way better now than a month ago. I would give Dendi 4-6 months more and see how far he can develop his draft. The C9 game was lost because of a bad turn if you want, one that could have been avoided. You can blame Xboct but we all know he was doing what he does, that is how he gets that "Net worth". Vanskor had a bad game as he also had a brilliant game against EG. Fng had no impact. Funn1k deserves an applause and Dendi on "no Blink Dagger" heroes usually sucks. - The pillar of Team Secret is Bigdaddy, they won A LOT of games just because of him. His support ability/performance is by far one of the best currently and without him I do not think they would perform as good.
Another thing I feel I must say, NaVi was the best or one of the best but guys the game as any other game is getting grasped more and more, analyzed in depth and all this shared publicly, accessible by a lot of people putting our all-time players on a bad spot as time goes by. Believe it or not, players grow older, new players arise, more devoted or more addicted or whatever. NaVi will not stay always on top neither will have always the best players. Ups and downs will continue to happen and maybe not now but in a year or two we will be seeing a Tier1 team again. It is up to you to follow a team, a player or a play style.
Just enjoy watching the game.
Yeah Puppey wasn't drafting well pre-TI for Navi but putting the blame purely on supports is so unfair. The whole team was not performing well individually at that time except for Funn1k. Hell Funn1k was the only one carrying Navi so hard pre-TI and half the time Dendi when he performs. And you putting Secret's recent success purely on N0tail is also really unfair. I am a really big N0tail (and Fnatic T.T) fan and of course I won't deny he contributed a lot to Secret's success but saying that u don't think they would perform as good without him is seriously unfair. U completely neglected the performance of other players. It's just like saying Navi in the past without Xboct would still be as good of a team as a team with Funn1k and Dendi in it are bound to be good. Especially denying that Kuroky is performing way better than Xboct, I can not agree.
I am not putting all the blame on the supports, don't get me wrong, what I say is that supports are the ones making space in the early game so carries can make space in mid game. When your support rotations are way off and your enemies are on target, which was the case of pre/during TI for NaVi, it gets really hard on the carries to create mid game space, it all turns into a matter of perfect timing and execution (for the whole team) and for NaVi was inconsistent Dendi + feeding Xboct, leaving only Funn1k who was the best of the five but on heroes he didn't used as well as he does now, for instance Doom and NP.
I don't find it unfair to say that most of their success is due to N0tail, you may disagree and that is fine. I didn't see each and every game but I have seen half or two thirds of TS games and Bigdaddy, be it with ES or Io and even with Disruptor, won in terms of playmaking/space created/successful ganks executed/teammates saved A LOT of the games I have seen.
Some of s4's games, like one with Magnus, where so so so SO bad he got carried by the other four.
Ppy is doing way better with Mirana now than with NaVi.
And Fly is Fly, he is regular. He may not have the biggest impact on every game but he usually pulls his weight in one or another way.
This may sound even more unfair but I don't think Kky outperformed any top 5 carry in the scene. He did GREAT but not in a way where the team won solely thanks to his playmaking.
It is like saying a Naga Siren won a whole game and we all know that a poor early/mid NS is almost useless saving her ultimate, you let her farm and she wins alone, again, if you let her farm, and this last thing is only possible if the supports do the right things. Or even wielding the "oh didn't you see the Terrorblade's game?" Yea well, if you have a 25K net worth TB and you don't win, MAMA MIA!
A very well farmed carry usually carries unless he fcks up big time. You have an example for both sides of the coin on Xboct last games with Gyro and Slark.
I don't think Dendi should be relieved of his drafting duties until he demonstrates an inability to grow into a top-tier drafter.
For him not wanting to draft, I think this stems from his laser-like focus on being the best he possibly can be at what he does as a player. Well, tough shit. There's a ridiculous amount of Dota knowledge in that fluffy head and someone has got to do it or his individual talent will continue to lead to no tournament wins going forward.
On October 27 2014 03:05 FHDH wrote: I don't think Dendi should be relieved of his drafting duties until he demonstrates an inability to grow into a top-tier drafter.
For him not wanting to draft, I think this stems from his laser-like focus on being the best he possibly can be at what he does as a player. Well, tough shit. There's a ridiculous amount of Dota knowledge in that fluffy head and someone has got to do it or his individual talent will continue to lead to no tournament wins going forward.
All i read here are excuses made for XBOCT for fng for funn1k for Dendi...
The truth is the whole team isn't clicking well together fng drafts are okay sometimes great the problem is the players have no chemistry and cant execute them.
Most of you know where i stand on the XBOCT topic and i'm going to say it again the sooner he stops playing like a chimp or gets replaced this team will do much better.
The one thing i notice is the team plays for 1player every game it is either dendi or XBOCT ..long gone are the days you should do that every one needs to be equal and they need to share otherwise they wont rise above the current situation.
On October 27 2014 03:19 drusalnik wrote: All i read here are excuses made for XBOCT for fng for funn1k for Dendi...
The truth is the whole team isn't clicking well together fng drafts are okay sometimes great the problem is the players have no chemistry and cant execute them.
Most of you know where i stand on the XBOCT topic and i'm going to say it again the sooner he stops playing like a chimp or gets replaced this team will do much better.
The one thing i notice is the team plays for 1player every game it is either dendi or XBOCT ..long gone are the days you should do that every one needs to be equal and they need to share otherwise they wont rise above the current situation.
Maybe you should go and play in his place. Excuses or not, you seem pretty sure about your interpretations of our opinions, but in fact you could be way off. I don't know, maybe I am wrong.
On October 27 2014 03:34 Racket wrote: Maybe you should go and play in his place. Excuses or not, you seem pretty sure about your interpretations of our opinions, but in fact you could be way off. I don't know, maybe I am wrong.
Well you've got to admit the amount of stupid moves/dives he's done in the last few months (including and especially pre-TI4) has reached a new level. It's not that often he causes his team to lose singlehandedly, but it's getting a bit old.
I'm not sure what players Na'Vi could have opted for if they were to replace him anyway. They wanted an full ukrainian-ish lineup I guess. Maybe someone like Resolut1on, not sure he can play position 1, but guy's super good.
On October 27 2014 03:34 Racket wrote: Maybe you should go and play in his place. Excuses or not, you seem pretty sure about your interpretations of our opinions, but in fact you could be way off. I don't know, maybe I am wrong.
Well you've got to admit the amount of stupid moves/dives he's done in the last few months (including and especially pre-TI4) has reached a new level. It's not that often he causes his team to lose singlehandedly, but it's getting a bit old.
I'm not sure what players Na'Vi could have opted for if they were to replace him anyway. They wanted an full ukrainian-ish lineup I guess. Maybe someone like Resolut1on, not sure he can play position 1, but guy's super good.
I never denied it, NEVER. Many times I said he must have been replaced instead, I loved Kky so much that I was even ok with Ppy staying, imho Ppy+Xboct should have left but that would not happen in this dimension, maybe in another.
The problem is that some guys here have so much hate for Xboct that they can't even read properly. The amount of assumptions followed by hate are kinda extreme.
The time to complain about the roster change is long gone, now it is the time to cheer for them and hope for the best. No roster change will happen unless a really bad streak happens, like not qualifying to 3 or 4 LAN finals in a row.
On October 27 2014 03:34 Racket wrote: Maybe you should go and play in his place. Excuses or not, you seem pretty sure about your interpretations of our opinions, but in fact you could be way off. I don't know, maybe I am wrong.
Well you've got to admit the amount of stupid moves/dives he's done in the last few months (including and especially pre-TI4) has reached a new level. It's not that often he causes his team to lose singlehandedly, but it's getting a bit old.
I'm not sure what players Na'Vi could have opted for if they were to replace him anyway. They wanted an full ukrainian-ish lineup I guess. Maybe someone like Resolut1on, not sure he can play position 1, but guy's super good.
I never denied it, NEVER. Many times I said he must have been replaced instead, I loved Kky so much that I was even ok with Ppy staying, imho Ppy+Xboct should have left but that would not happen in this dimension, maybe in another.
The problem is that some guys here have so much hate for Xboct that they can't even read properly. The amount of assumptions followed by hate are kinda extreme.
The time to complain about the roster change is long gone, now it is the time to cheer for them and hope for the best. No roster change will happen unless a really bad streak happens, like not qualifying to 3 or 4 LAN finals in a row.
You are delusional if you think i just randomly/blind hate XBOCT. Dude was a top tier carry for so long hes given so much to the game. Hes problem is he cant evolve i don't know why but honestly i do not care, the game moves on staying in same dimensional game as 2-3years ago you are bound to fall behind and lack results.
It is clear that he does not want to improve no matter how long you are willing to wait for him. Or if he does want to improve he just has no idea how to which again is a big problem honestly i don't understand either way why you defend him.
I can argue that you defend him blindly as you accused me or any one else of hating him blindly. Either way it is obvious hes a problem regardless of the brilliance he displays some times(sadly very rarely now days).
On October 27 2014 03:34 Racket wrote: Maybe you should go and play in his place. Excuses or not, you seem pretty sure about your interpretations of our opinions, but in fact you could be way off. I don't know, maybe I am wrong.
Well you've got to admit the amount of stupid moves/dives he's done in the last few months (including and especially pre-TI4) has reached a new level. It's not that often he causes his team to lose singlehandedly, but it's getting a bit old.
I'm not sure what players Na'Vi could have opted for if they were to replace him anyway. They wanted an full ukrainian-ish lineup I guess. Maybe someone like Resolut1on, not sure he can play position 1, but guy's super good.
I never denied it, NEVER. Many times I said he must have been replaced instead, I loved Kky so much that I was even ok with Ppy staying, imho Ppy+Xboct should have left but that would not happen in this dimension, maybe in another.
The problem is that some guys here have so much hate for Xboct that they can't even read properly. The amount of assumptions followed by hate are kinda extreme.
The time to complain about the roster change is long gone, now it is the time to cheer for them and hope for the best. No roster change will happen unless a really bad streak happens, like not qualifying to 3 or 4 LAN finals in a row.
You are delusional if you think i just randomly/blind hate XBOCT. Dude was a top tier carry for so long hes given so much to the game. Hes problem is he cant evolve i don't know why but honestly i do not care, the game moves on staying in same dimensional game as 2-3years ago you are bound to fall behind and lack results.
It is clear that he does not want to improve no matter how long you are willing to wait for him. Or if he does want to improve he just has no idea how to which again is a big problem honestly i don't understand either way why you defend him.
I can argue that you defend him blindly as you accused me or any one else of hating him blindly. Either way it is obvious hes a problem regardless of the brilliance he displays some times(sadly very rarely now days).
Man, you have a BIG problem understanding words. I don't defend him, I would rather see him go.... Again, you have a BIG problem understanding words.
What you may interpret as defending Xboct is in fact us moving on... Digging on the same topic with the same arguments and stating for the eleventh time that Xboct sucks is nonsense, he won't get better by just repeating how much he sucks neither will he get kicked because of that. So, as we moved on and now we are talking about Dendi's draft and Fng and Vanskor, you could do the same.
I don't believe XBOCT has what it takes now to be a top-tier carry in today's game, plain and simple. However, I think he is good enough to be adequate for Na'Vi to be successful consistently.
What he needs for this to happen is discipline. This is going to come from himself, and is only going to come with a captain he respects. This wasn't going to happen with Puppey in the latter days. He was playing well with FNG (who he has no reason to respect) in the honeymoon phase but the circumstances were such that this was inconsequential, even if it was fun to see as a fan. If your plan as a manager is to keep XBOCT then this has to be your top consideration when it comes to captaining. This is one of the reasons I think you have to be careful if you actually want to replace FNG with a new captain to take over for Dendi's duties. Because at the end of the day if you don't respect Dendi just fucking retire; you're not a professional at that point you're just a big baby from a bygone era.
On October 27 2014 06:20 FHDH wrote: I don't believe XBOCT has what it takes now to be a top-tier carry in today's game, plain and simple. However, I think he is good enough to be adequate for Na'Vi to be successful consistently.
What he needs for this to happen is discipline. This is going to come from himself, and is only going to come with a captain he respects. This wasn't going to happen with Puppey in the latter days. He was playing well with FNG (who he has no reason to respect) in the honeymoon phase but the circumstances were such that this was inconsequential, even if it was fun to see as a fan. If your plan as a manager is to keep XBOCT then this has to be your top consideration when it comes to captaining. This is one of the reasons I think you have to be careful if you actually want to replace FNG with a new captain to take over for Dendi's duties. Because at the end of the day if you don't respect Dendi just fucking retire; you're not a professional at that point you're just a big baby from a bygone era.
I was a big fan of the old Navi. I didn't know how to feel about the new one. I've always thought xboct wasn't the best carry/player and he seemed like a bad teammate tbh. Kinda wish they'd kick him out and did kky/ppy/dendi/funnik/notail. wouldnt that have been amazing? :D
On October 27 2014 12:27 Kvz wrote: I was a big fan of the old Navi. I didn't know how to feel about the new one. I've always thought xboct wasn't the best carry/player and he seemed like a bad teammate tbh. Kinda wish they'd kick him out and did kky/ppy/dendi/funnik/notail. wouldnt that have been amazing? :D
That team would be great... I agree that XBOCT isn't the best carry in the west... but for Na'Vi to do well, I don't think he has to... He just needs to pull his weight and farm well enough to have a good impact later in the game... During the so-called honeymoon stages, he was crazy and diving like none other, but i have seen a noticeable improvement in restraint on his part, so i can only hope that it gets better from now... if not, I don't know how much more time we should give him~
On October 26 2014 20:54 Racket wrote: I hope Fng will do better, with Bane he didn't do well, but again Bane and Io are both Vanskors, I expected Treant Protector for Fng that game.
Actually Bane was the hero I first noticed fng standing out on.
On October 26 2014 20:54 Racket wrote: I hope Fng will do better, with Bane he didn't do well, but again Bane and Io are both Vanskors, I expected Treant Protector for Fng that game.
I said he didn't do well, in that game... And in NaVi, if I am not wrong but I may be, Vanskor played Bane more than him. He can play it for sure, but in fact dotabuff shows more games in Bane for Vanskor than for Fng.
I am not flaming him, just said he didn't do well in that game.
On October 28 2014 07:50 EnumaAvalon wrote: LOL, how about the Tinker one? I can't watch Office
Tinker had 2 standins. navi's three cores just farmed their lanes. There was like no moment in which they were not the 3 most farmed heroes. 20 min victory. 18-3 scoreline or something.
best moment: funn1k dove vs at the top t1 with slark almost done but running away. tinker tp's 2 more players in funn1k gets the kill on vs gets his lvl 6, ravages kills slark and only afterwards dies to the other 2. game was no benchmark.
EPT
Office
