EPTOr still we think they're good because they beat Empire once?
Na`Vi Discussion - Page 227
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_Elendil
Italy192 Posts
Or still we think they're good because they beat Empire once? | ||
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Pontual
Brazil3038 Posts
On June 06 2017 20:04 _Elendil wrote: Can now we say this Na'Vi squad can't go anywhere? Or still we think they're good because they beat Empire once? Never thought. Na'vi glory days are over since ti3, ever since it's been a T2 team | ||
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
On June 06 2017 20:04 _Elendil wrote: Can now we say this Na'Vi squad can't go anywhere? Or still we think they're good because they beat Empire once? Umm where'd you want to go? They fight for the King of Tier2 with the likes of PD, Alliance, Mouz, Empire with still a good chance of making it to TI through CIS qualifiers. Nobody expected them to beat OG or LFY who are on fire and shat on both OG and Liquid | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
On June 06 2017 20:09 Pontual wrote: Never thought. Na'vi glory days are over since ti3, ever since it's been a T2 team Where were you when navi was back for a while last year. Teams were legit scared of their SK/wisp drafts. I think that team made me more disappointed than my all time best team DK2014. | ||
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Racket
3023 Posts
On June 06 2017 20:04 _Elendil wrote: Can now we say this Na'Vi squad can't go anywhere? Or still we think they're good because they beat Empire once? Did anyone say they are good? If you want to see things either black or white go ahead, but don't expect everyone to agree with you. You mistake being bad with inconsistency. Empire is not bad, NaVi is bad. Empire is inconsistent, NaVi has no idea what to do or how to do it. But even so they can beat good teams every now and then. Both NaVi and Empire have players good enough to beat any other team out there, sadly neither can perform, but that is just chemistry and strategy. I had never had hope for this Pajkatt captainship thing, sadly I wasn't wrong. | ||
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_Elendil
Italy192 Posts
On June 06 2017 20:09 LemOn wrote: Umm where'd you want to go? They fight for the King of Tier2 with the likes of PD, Alliance, Mouz, Empire with still a good chance of making it to TI through CIS qualifiers. Nobody expected them to beat OG or LFY who are on fire and shat on both OG and Liquid Nobody? I misunderstood people answering to my past posts then. | ||
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FreakyDroid
Macedonia2616 Posts
On June 06 2017 16:22 Racket wrote: If NaVi kicks Dendi and get no results they would be turning into yet another cis stack/failure. Dendi is the only thing that makes them different. If they were to kick him and turn into VP.. now we are talking, sadly I don't think that is even remotely possible. But they've been nothing but a failure for the longest time now, cis or otherwise. Granted, the ArtStyle return was a bit better, but they weren't happy with that. Besides, I didn't say Dendi is the problem, but I dont see how he makes them different either. VP was a cis stack failure for 2-3 years, look at them now, but at least they did some ballsy moves to get here by removing the player they always made their team around: G. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
On June 06 2017 22:02 FreakyDroid wrote: But they've been nothing but a failure for the longest time now, cis or otherwise. Granted, the ArtStyle return was a bit better, but they weren't happy with that. Besides, I didn't say Dendi is the problem, but I dont see how he makes them different either. VP was a cis stack failure for 2-3 years, look at them now, but at least they did some ballsy moves to get here by removing the player they always made their team around: G. VP removed every single player from their pre-TI6 lineup. Their lineup is closer to the old Vega lineup that won ESL New York after TI5 than it is to any of the old VP lineups. They didn't fix the team by simply removing G but by removing everyone, bringing in a captain in Solo and probably the 2 best cores in CIS in Noone and Ramzes. I don't really understand the reasoning of people who suggest NaVi removes Dendi or Alliance removes Loda. To me those players are the only thing that is keeping the connection to the old teams that people became fans of. If Dendi got removed I don't think there would be anything special about NaVi anymore even if they happened to be better. Maybe some people feel differently. | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
On June 06 2017 22:18 spudde123 wrote: VP removed every single player from their pre-TI6 lineup. Their lineup is closer to the old Vega lineup that won ESL New York after TI5 than it is to any of the old VP lineups. They didn't fix the team by simply removing G but by removing everyone, bringing in a captain in Solo and probably the 2 best cores in CIS in Noone and Ramzes. I don't really understand the reasoning of people who suggest NaVi removes Dendi or Alliance removes Loda. To me those players are the only thing that is keeping the connection to the old teams that people became fans of. If Dendi got removed I don't think there would be anything special about NaVi anymore even if they happened to be better. Maybe some people feel differently. I can understand removing Loda though. He has been playing terribly recently. Plus he seems to have much control on the strategic aspect of the team, which doesn't make his case good given their poor performances. Dendi however is actually playing quite decently. Sometimes bad games, but more often than not good enough as a top mid. When given a good environment, he still can control the game. Most of the times where he doesn't shine though, it's more on the draft than anything else. | ||
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FreakyDroid
Macedonia2616 Posts
On June 06 2017 22:18 spudde123 wrote: VP removed every single player from their pre-TI6 lineup. Their lineup is closer to the old Vega lineup that won ESL New York after TI5 than it is to any of the old VP lineups. They didn't fix the team by simply removing G but by removing everyone, bringing in a captain in Solo and probably the 2 best cores in CIS in Noone and Ramzes. Well that was exactly my point, yes they removed everyone, but before doing that, they always kept G and made their teams around him, and finally they decided he needs to go too and they became successful. But you cant deny that G was at the center of VP's lineups prior to releasing the whole team, just like Dendi is now on NaVi. I will stress again, I dont think Dendi is the problem in NaVi, just like G wasn't on VP, but I dont see what makes him special or a very valuable asset as a pos 2 player either. Perhaps a pos4 can work for him, most playmaking heroes nowadays play that position and that's imo something he can be good at. Yes Dendi isnt bad and looking at the lineup, he is far from their weakest link, but compared to T1 mids like NoOne, Sumail, Paparazzi, Miracle, Ana? Im sorry, I just dont see him in the same league as those guys. I wouldnt be so critical of him or the team if they were happy with their T2 standings and they didnt strive for more, but since they do, I have to evaluate him on that level, which sadly he isnt on [that level]. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
On June 06 2017 23:22 FreakyDroid wrote: Well that was exactly my point, yes they removed everyone, but before doing that, they always kept G and made their teams around him, and finally they decided he needs to go too and they became successful. But you cant deny that G was at the center of VP's lineups prior to releasing the whole team, just like Dendi is now on NaVi. I will stress again, I dont think Dendi is the problem in NaVi, just like G wasn't on VP, but I dont see what makes him special or a very valuable asset as a pos 2 player either. Perhaps a pos4 can work for him, most playmaking heroes nowadays play that position and that's imo something he can be good at. Yes Dendi isnt bad and looking at the lineup, he is far from their weakest link, but compared to T1 mids like NoOne, Sumail, Paparazzi, Miracle, Ana? Im sorry, I just dont see him in the same league as those guys. I wouldnt be so critical of him or the team if they were happy with their T2 standings and they didnt strive for more, but since they do, I have to evaluate him on that level, which sadly he isnt on [that level]. Well yea but the one big thing NaVi has over teams like Vega, Spirit or Empire is Dendi and all his fans. If they were to build a completely new team without Dendi, they would lose quite a bit of the fanbase and there is no guarantee that the team would become better. It's not like NaVi is falling terribly behind of their CIS competition (outside of VP), but rather I think CIS has plenty of capable players but they are lacking good players with captain qualities to make those teams work together properly. Perhaps removing Dendi would make it easier for some new guy come in and take charge but at least I don't see who that would be atm. On June 06 2017 22:39 DucK- wrote: I can understand removing Loda though. He has been playing terribly recently. Plus he seems to have much control on the strategic aspect of the team, which doesn't make his case good given their poor performances. Dendi however is actually playing quite decently. Sometimes bad games, but more often than not good enough as a top mid. When given a good environment, he still can control the game. Most of the times where he doesn't shine though, it's more on the draft than anything else. I could understand removing Loda from a performance point of view but in Alliance's case it's the same thing imo as with Dendi and NaVi fanwise. If Loda leaves the current team, it's hardly even "Alliance" at that point. And even from an org perspective it's better to have a mediocre team with some fans cheering for you than it is to have a mediocre team with no fans. | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
On June 06 2017 23:22 FreakyDroid wrote: Well that was exactly my point, yes they removed everyone, but before doing that, they always kept G and made their teams around him, and finally they decided he needs to go too and they became successful. But you cant deny that G was at the center of VP's lineups prior to releasing the whole team, just like Dendi is now on NaVi. I will stress again, I dont think Dendi is the problem in NaVi, just like G wasn't on VP, but I dont see what makes him special or a very valuable asset as a pos 2 player either. Perhaps a pos4 can work for him, most playmaking heroes nowadays play that position and that's imo something he can be good at. Yes Dendi isnt bad and looking at the lineup, he is far from their weakest link, but compared to T1 mids like NoOne, Sumail, Paparazzi, Miracle, Ana? Im sorry, I just dont see him in the same league as those guys. I wouldnt be so critical of him or the team if they were happy with their T2 standings and they didnt strive for more, but since they do, I have to evaluate him on that level, which sadly he isnt on [that level]. Or rather, they removed fng. The problem was simply the captain not being great. | ||
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FreakyDroid
Macedonia2616 Posts
On June 06 2017 23:47 spudde123 wrote: Well yea but the one big thing NaVi has over teams like Vega, Spirit or Empire is Dendi and all his fans. If they were to build a completely new team without Dendi, they would lose quite a bit of the fanbase and there is no guarantee that the team would become better. It's not like NaVi is falling terribly behind of their CIS competition (outside of VP), but rather I think CIS has plenty of capable players but they are lacking good players with captain qualities to make those teams work together properly. Perhaps removing Dendi would make it easier for some new guy come in and take charge but at least I don't see who that would be atm. Im not saying they need to build a team without him, but change of position might be good for the team and himself. I realize Dendi has fans, but those fans grow smaller each day. At the end, what are fans worth if you've got nothing to show for. Sadly, CIS competition is bad atm when looking at Dota globally. I dont think NaVi are content with only securing qualifier slots and getting rekt each tournament. I do agree that there is no one that can fill his role in CIS atm, none that I know of anyways. No good captains either. But perhaps taking a chance with some new blood is what they need. | ||
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smr
Germany4808 Posts
On June 06 2017 23:47 spudde123 wrote: Well yea but the one big thing NaVi has over teams like Vega, Spirit or Empire is Dendi and all his fans. If they were to build a completely new team without Dendi, they would lose quite a bit of the fanbase and there is no guarantee that the team would become better. It's not like NaVi is falling terribly behind of their CIS competition (outside of VP), but rather I think CIS has plenty of capable players but they are lacking good players with captain qualities to make those teams work together properly. Perhaps removing Dendi would make it easier for some new guy come in and take charge but at least I don't see who that would be atm. I could understand removing Loda from a performance point of view but in Alliance's case it's the same thing imo as with Dendi and NaVi fanwise. If Loda leaves the current team, it's hardly even "Alliance" at that point. And even from an org perspective it's better to have a mediocre team with some fans cheering for you than it is to have a mediocre team with no fans. While I'm pretty sure that many fans are player-bound that's not always the case and I'm pretty sure you can weaken the impact. Look at navis counterstrike team. It changed a lot. At one point Guardian came in and now he feels like being navi. Then at some point seized and flamie were added and they did a great job and one could start to think: hell yeah that is the navi I want to see. The dota team, atleast to me, always was about outstanding coordination in teamfights. And in the beginning lightofheaven was a big part but I wouldn't want him right now. If navi told me (and maybe that has to do with being a football fan who rooted for a single team forever with players joining and leaving) that they would rebuild around sonneiko... hell fuckin' yeah that guy carried this team through so many games when he joined, that's what I expect from this team. A player who understands what the others are doing and acting in a way to synergize with that. That said I feel that the biggest problem is pajkatt not being good enough neither as captain nor as a player. Which, I'll admit, could be a horrible misinterpretation that has it's roots within communication problems, a lack of trust or whatever. tldr: You can evolve a team and keep your fans even when important players of the past leave. | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
Immediately upon artstyle's first and second return, navi suddenly played super duper aggressive davai dota. Pajkatt's navi is not as bad as PSM's, but it still lacks direction. Don't feel navi-like too. It's all fine if it works, but results have been scarce... | ||
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Faruko
Chile34171 Posts
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
On June 07 2017 01:59 Faruko wrote: i still have hopes in fng honestly lol fng could work. No more xboct around, so no big ego to manage. I like sqreen too. Always wondered how sqreen would perform when given top players to lead. | ||
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Faruko
Chile34171 Posts
with mid-top players im sure he could be a top captain | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
Like you watch the OGs, EGs and others, they always seem to bend their game plan to create the situation. If any of their lanes get pressured, they look for other ways to win, but this version of Navi has no way of win. Piecat has no such plans and things are worse if his lane is pressed. Moreover, this Navi somehow manages to clip playmaking ability of both Dendi and Sonneiko. | ||
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the bear jew
United States3674 Posts
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