On July 31 2015 03:29 Alcor wrote: i'm honestly starting to think that the prob now is xboct. i never blamed him but his playstyle is the only one in the team that hasn't changed. the game, tho, has changed a lot. Everybody shines in their "old" role, but they adapted to play even something else (Dendi CAN play mid farming heroes, if needed). xboct didn't. yesterday we saw sonnenko playing as a carry starting from pos 4 and well... he carried better than xboct in several other games.
the last really great xboct game that i saw, where he carried the team, was the one w the lesh gank in rorsh pit during Ti qualifiers. in this TI he farms perfectly, but the pure hard carry role is not as performant as it was 2 years ago. and the games are won mainly from dendi+sonnenko rotations. he needs to update his play because when dendi is shut down he HAS to emerge and he's not doing it
oh and that's even why they cant finish the games... the "pure" hard carry needs very long time to be ready, but the meta doesn't give it to him, so in the lategame na'vi is basically 4vs5 if they didn't stomp the midgame
EDIT: that, and artstyle feeding :D :D
ArtStyle is playing so much better, feeding less and making more plays.
But Xboct, mmm, I think, as you said, that he is the only one who hasn't adapted. Many other position ones are using their farm to put pressure on the opponents weak points where Xboct is only grouping as five and failing to outlast the enemy. I have seen EE and RTZ particularly being the last ones to join the team fights, if they joined at all, to clean up or turn the tides, Xboct is there from minute zero. When they don't join they usually split push or cut the lanes (RTZ has repeatedly done so) and Xboct is just farming the woods. Xboct is mechanically good enough but he has a lot of room for improvement in the decision making department. I hate him so much when he doesn't build BKB and puts the team behind so badly.
You really need a reliable carry in this game, and XBOCT hasn't been that in a long time. Time was his flashes of brilliance and Na'Vi's overall dominance could make up for it. That time has passed.
On July 31 2015 05:26 Gevna wrote: Yeah lets blame Hvost again for this TI ahah :D
Well to be honest he is actually awful right now. But he is defintely the last reason why Navi is performing this bad.
Why is he always "the last reason." He's been, on-and-off, a prominent cause of their mediocrity for a long, long time. Everyone has had their turn, and ups and downs, but let's fucking call it what it is.
On July 31 2015 05:26 Gevna wrote: Yeah lets blame Hvost again for this TI ahah :D
Well to be honest he is actually awful right now. But he is defintely the last reason why Navi is performing this bad.
Why is he always "the last reason." He's been, on-and-off, a prominent cause of their mediocrity for a long, long time. Everyone has had their turn, and ups and downs, but let's fucking call it what it is.
Because he is not their awful decision making, their inability to close games, their inconsistency to play together as a team, their ups and downs as if they were under high hormonal medication etc... But whatever, in dark times you need a scapegoat, that helps a lot so let's say Hvost is the quintessence of everything wrong in Navi.
Oh, people are already looking for scapegoats and calling names. It didn't take you too long.
Regarding Na'Vi's games today, they either didn't care or there are some internal/morale issues. I honestly hope that it's the former because the tournament is not over yet for them.
On July 31 2015 05:26 Gevna wrote: Yeah lets blame Hvost again for this TI ahah :D
Well to be honest he is actually awful right now. But he is defintely the last reason why Navi is performing this bad.
Why is he always "the last reason." He's been, on-and-off, a prominent cause of their mediocrity for a long, long time. Everyone has had their turn, and ups and downs, but let's fucking call it what it is.
Because he is not their awful decision making, their inability to close games, their inconsistency to play together as a team, their ups and downs as if they were under high hormonal medication etc... But whatever, in dark times you need a scapegoat, that helps a lot so let's say Hvost is the quintessence of everything wrong in Navi.
There are other issues. But XBOCT pretty much only ever carries when the game is handed to him. That wouldn't change if everything else was better.
On July 31 2015 05:49 Faruko wrote: Nobody (as in a single player) and everyone (well Sonneiko doesnt lmao) has the blame for the performance, fuck the calm down.
Dota 2 is a team game
Or are you telling me that illidian is a top tier carry ?
I'd take Illidan over XBOCT. I'm saying the guy never has standout performances. Is that wrong? And I don't mean "team made bunch of space, XBOCT got huge, XBOCT became killing machine," I mean when was the last time you saw a game and thought "wow, XBOCT really put the team on his back." Because unless everyone is playing at a star level pretty much all the time, everyone has to have their turn doing it. And most of the players on Na'Vi take that turn.
oh man guys, it's like the kindergarden... i just was trying to reason about why na'vi cant close the game, and objectively, they won the 3 games where dendi wasn't controlled. in the other games, dendi couldn't farm well cause he had always 2-3 heroes around, but the carry, dispite beying free from pressure didn't... well, carried, despite his sick farm, and that's strange.
i'm not saying 4 na'vi players played perfectly and xboct played shit, just... his playstyle is well known and easily shut down. na'vi playstyle revolvs around his carry's one, so na'vi has issues in closing games, that's all
i still love watching them play and still root for them now and after TI... 'till Dendi stays w them
Do you remember Illidan in VP 2014 ? Do you think the dude got good overnight ? Or that the change from a really awful team to a sick team with a really good captain who managed to take the best from Illidan and provide him a fitting environment for his style, was actually the reason ? Now try to think about Illidan in Navi 2015. I'm not sure he will be able to play as good as he is doing in VPP. We already witnessed such thing with Phobos. Godlike in VPP, awful in Navi.
Chill guys, no scapegoats here, it all started as a statement of the obvious: NaVi lacks the ability to end a game where they won lanes and did fairly well mid game. Then came an observation, Xboct in comparison with other carries, for instance Silent, never shines when the team is in the darkness, he only excels when the other four perform at 8/10 minimum.
There was no "please disband" nor "kick xboct", even if Xboct doesn't shine by himself, the team is lacking something way more important than a carry.
Let's be honest, NaVi attending TI5 was for the majority of the community a no no two or three months ago, and now even if they lose the bo1 in the LB they end up as one of the best 16 teams in the world with a team that got together less than four months ago, do you remember how well did Secret around that time? They got wrecked at SL12.
This TI has shown a level higher than any other. I didn't expect anything different.
Well i am noob in dota, but i can see when navi dominates lanes and mid game they can not finish the game, mostly enemy team comebacks. There is something lack in their play which is hard to determine. They need more team work and direction at this point i think.
Don't see how can anyone make judgments on individual performances in Na'Vi; in my opinion it's pretty clear that their problem is team cohesion and all the misplays / bad calls are stemming from that, not from any individual deficiencies. Even Sonneiko, who I think everyone agrees is one of the best if not the best supports in the world right now, made a ton of misplays and gave up many meaningless deaths / poor ward placements in their lost games. Individual skill is the last of their issues, what they need to do is sit down as 5 and just grind games; all the excuses about scrims being 'useless' and 'not the same as the real thing' is just crap when the team simply isn't on the same page.
On July 31 2015 10:05 Salazarz wrote: Don't see how can anyone make judgments on individual performances in Na'Vi; in my opinion it's pretty clear that their problem is team cohesion and all the misplays / bad calls are stemming from that, not from any individual deficiencies. Even Sonneiko, who I think everyone agrees is one of the best if not the best supports in the world right now, made a ton of misplays and gave up many meaningless deaths / poor ward placements in their lost games. Individual skill is the last of their issues, what they need to do is sit down as 5 and just grind games; all the excuses about scrims being 'useless' and 'not the same as the real thing' is just crap when the team simply isn't on the same page.
Thank you. For exemple something bothered me quite a lot driving me to really hate how Navi is handling things for a year now : This interview is just after the first day of groupstage. The way Hvost says that they talked about the game but everybody stick with their positions is just dreadful. It's like those guys can't and don't want to work around their mistakes.
They aren't out of the international yet, they have played much better then they have in a long time. When morale is good, they have some really amazing games, they are like fnatic, hot and cold. Maybe they can stay hot and make a run out of the lower bracket. All you can do is root for them and see what they can do.
EPT
