EPT[Updated] EE and Misery blog about Team Secret - Page 11
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its_a_me
Austria612 Posts
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Asjo
Denmark664 Posts
On October 10 2016 20:42 Lt Kilgore wrote: I agree, but i can't even remember how many times in my life where i have read something dramatically similar to this and thought "holy shit this guy is so bad" only later to have to correct my opinion on many things once the other party revealed it's side of the story. I believe this is a very important part of judging anyone or any situation in life, even if things look bad you gotta listen to the other side as well. I bet there are a lot of things that will be cleared up once Puppey and/or Secret decides to share information, still though, there are some things that he probably cannot justify having done. While it's true that we couldn't fairly form a complete opinion of the matter just based of the statement of EternalEnvy coupled with previous events, there a definitely a few facts that cannot be easily swept aside. Regardless of other facts, the way Secret has treated people asking for their money, which has been documented and stated by many parties (and now brought into a different life by EternalEnvy), cannot be reasonably justified. While Kemal has always looked dodgy as fuck, I quite like Puppey. I remember how I loved his interview with Sheever. It felt like it wasn't just him acting like a jackass, but rather it was his awkward, but very direct approach to life: it is what he makes if it, and there's no need getting up in arms about it. This was greatly contrasted by his interview at TI6 (I believe he was sitting outside with a few guys interviewing him), where he just didn't seem to level with the people he was interviewing. Many things seem to indicate that perhaps he has indeed let the fame get to him and this becomes his excuse for using other people to get what he wants. Particularly if he felt threatened (such as the latest revelations abou the KuroKy incident would indicate), he would be likely to think more about himself and how to maintain his position. In many ways, he's a great leader, and a lot of what he does works, but if it all ends up being about himself in the end (be it illusions of grandeur, greed for money or just a way to get laid), it cannot last. Possible points that Puppey could hypothetically use to argue his case (assuming he would have facts to back up such claims): 1) Puppey made no secret of that fact that his end goal was some way off into the future, where he would want to bring big money into the Team Secret. That is, it was not about whatever "petty cash" could be earned now, but about what developing the organisation for the future. The other players on the teams were in support of Puppey's vision. In light of this, in makes complete sense for money that Team Secret earn to be invested into making the organisation bigger. Money has been invested in staff, establishing new teams, forming long lasting sponsor relationships. EternalEnvy claims that people aren't getting paid, but he has missed many details in this regard, and here are the expenses. Therefore the, 10% cuts were necessary, and the Panda money was a Team Secret sponsorship, which is why the money is used within the organisation, among other things for player salaries (which were paid out, as EternalEnvy states himself, even if he was confused about the distribution). As the expenses show, the money are not going to Puppey himself. The times Kemal has offered out of his own pocket, he has in fact paid himself, and he has been gracious to lend his house in Turkey to Team Secret. As evidenced by the expenses laid out, no money is unaccounted for. Bringing in the porn star was necessary for team morale (and a big expense indeed), and Kemal has never claimed to pay for this. Many players had the time of their life and the Team Secret brand was strenghtened through this alternative way of promoting the team. 2) Due to EternalEnvy being autistic, he is particularly sensitive to personal interaction and will often interpret things very differently from others. It has been very hard to handle him, and Puppey has often had to have close personal talks with him to rectify the situation. For instance, EE mentions W33 being bullied, but he understands nothing. While it was tough for W33 that Puppey was always on his case, it was necessary to make him work on the team. W33 was never very disciplined, and Puppey needed to act as a father figure and keep him in his place. It's not about Puppey being aggressive, but about being an effective team leader. W33 also understood this and has thanked Puppey for his leadership on several occasions. Likewise, Puppey challenging people to fight was not about physical threat. It was about cutting through the bullshit and showing strength and leadership. Many people have praised Puppey for his leadership, and something you have to shock people to get through to them. You can't just sit there and mince words all day - it will never get you anywhere. Morever, Puppey can be emotional, and since EternalEnvy does not understand such a reaction, he makes a bi deal about it. Puppey is not a liar, but said that he didn't through his keyboard into the monitor because it was unimportant and he didn't want to re-enter a touchy subject. Generally, Puppey is very straight with the players and tell them like it is. Yes, he is very critical, but only because he wants to get the best from those under his leadership. 3) It remains true that Secret have been working for long-term sponsorships, not wanting to be saddled with insignificant sponsor deals. Secret have worked to find a sponsor who would not try to control the team, but a big company that could become a long-time partner. The few sponsorships currently in place have not yielded any financial gains yet, but are there as something to build on. Secret were close to finally securing some of the big sponsor deals they have been working on, but they fell through because the team collapsed. Due to confidentiality, Secret cannot reveal any details about the sponsorships, but suffice to say that EternalEnvy was never involved in negotiating sponsorships and knows very little about what was going on. Someone at Panda allegedly told him that the deal was dead, but we realized that negotiations were still possible and has a very good angle to work out the kinks of a future partnership. You don't just give up because of a few setbacks. 4) EPICENTER are mistaken about having paid out the money. The guy EternalEnvy talked to was told that the money was paid out, but the guy actually tasked with doing it was having trouble due to Kemal's account being blacklisted. This is not due to any ill will of Team Secret, but difficulties imposed by a heavy bureaucracy in the financial sector. This has happened before, as evidency by the previous statement of Evany. Rest assured, the money will be paid out once Secret get them. Team Secret does not keep money that belongs to its players. 5) EternalEnvy complained a lot about not getting any graphics card from Nvidia. However, he does not realize that the deal about the graphics card was an important part of the future sponsorship. The offer of the graphics cards was just a side deal and never had high priority. That is why Nvidia managed to run out of stock before any of their hardware was sent to the players. This is not so hard to understand, but EternalEnvy took everything very personally because he was mad at Puppey. 6) A long carreer within esports has taken its toll on Puppey, and he has had to tone down his investments in the team as a player for short periods within the last year. Helping grow the Team Secret organisation has been a great passion of him, and since he has been working on this intensely for the last year, it has been hard for him to manage both. Since he now has an infrastructure in place, he is back to being fully committed to the team. He has had his team off and is again fully energized and motivated for his esports career. It is understandable that EnternalEnvy reacts to Puppey taking a break, since he has always been a tryhard. However, do not misinterpret this an unprofessionalism. Puppey has always cared greatly for the team, and taking some time off was necessary for him to perform at his best once again. Reading the above statements might take a bit of suspense of belief, so bear with me. But if there ever is a reply from Puppey, which is sadly doubtful, we could very well hear some of the above. Either that, or he will "break down" and reveal all the nasty facts of the situation (for instance, that he was duped by Kemal and has finally come to this realization). | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
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Zea!
9589 Posts
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Thetwinmasters
3578 Posts
On October 11 2016 05:21 Zea! wrote: But, what is Valve doing in all this mess? They can't just close their eyes, if Secret doesn't give explanations, i think they should disqualify them from Valve's tournaments. Why the fuck should PLD, MP, Midone, and Forev be punished because Puppey and kemal is being shady they send invites to players anyways so that would never happen. | ||
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Beyond Magic
Finland130 Posts
On October 11 2016 05:15 Asjo wrote: Bringing in the porn star was necessary for team morale (and a big expense indeed), and Kemal has never claimed to pay for this. Who is this guy :D Huge troll. | ||
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Zea!
9589 Posts
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pawinthecrowd
Bulgaria1 Post
Why did Puppey started this team. What was his initial reason for doing this? My answer is that it was because he already KNEW how things are operating in this area. He KNEW that is okay for prize money to be delayed. He KNEW that he can get away with such act. So what was his plan? What were his actions? My personal explanation is that they were using the money all the time. Investing them in something, maybe betting them on something, maybe lending them to someone and so on. This was the intention from the beginning and it started happening with the first prize winnings at that time. We know that at the market sometimes you are a hero, but sometimes you are a zero, so lets imagine that he and Kemal have lost the money from the prize winning of Misery and many others that haven't received their payments. From that point they have to find a new capital in order to compensate the previous losses. This is the beginning of a pyramid, as they call it or a never ending cycle in which at some point you come up with excuses like - we are taking 10% of your winnings, we are giving that person such salary and that person such salary and so on, so that you can hide the lost. The same scheme is used with deposits, although the bank has a huge capital to play with, so they are able to easily replenish the money if needed. Puppey can't. So, in order for him to replenish the money he needs new transactions. What is the easiest way to supply yourself with money at this point winning tournaments will do, so he goes for new players and so on. Endless cycle. Or the so called loop. On the other hand, its quite possible that the investment that was made with the prize money is a long duration one and they still need time to get the money back and come up with a profit. This is a huge capital ran by those people, a capital which is not even bound by any kind of contract. This comes to my second point. Not having contracts. This is the most unbelievable part for me. I know that its true and it was said in the both blogs, but who the hell would leave all of his prize money in somebody else's bank account without having any kind of guarantee that these people would give him his fair share? How can you sue somebody if you don't have any documents regarding the obligations of the two sides. This is crazy. Thank god nowadays that there is sunsfan. My third argument is a possible explanation of Puppey's behavior. I find it hard to believe that he was always that kind of jerk. Because you can hardly achieve what he have achieved without proper usage of social interactions. His problem in the current situation is that he though that it would be easy and it would be profitable, yea their payments are delayed but who cares if they have a good salary and so on. I believe he thought that he is not doing something bad. But as the time progresses and maybe after the huge losses occurred, he was forced to face the consequences - he had to lie to his teammates that everything is ok, that they will get all of their money and at the same time be their captain. This is a huge stress. One can understand why he started drinking and his passion for dota stopped. Huge pressure was at his shouders. He started to build anger inside to a point when he just couldn't keep it in himself. These are those explosions that Envy talked about. He said it himself. Things are not black and white. Its quite possible that he may had the good intention of starting his own business on the background and using it to pay the players in the beginning but his hand was a little bit difficult to play and as it happens in the end - people like Kemal can easily use that kind of frustration to manipulate inexperienced players. I can even imagine that they could have invested in businesses closely related to Kemal. So in the very end Puppey is turning to drugs and booze. Well, my interpretation is quite fictional, but its definitely plausible. My personal guess is that Puppey does not have an easy time as well at the moment. | ||
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Emnjay808
United States10665 Posts
cant find source, but i remember it was said in a interview long ago. | ||
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Asjo
Denmark664 Posts
- Old Puppey persona: Ballsy guy who doesn't give a shit, so he bets all the team's winnings. Go big or go home. - New Puppey persona: Scheming and careful guy, who is slowly unraveling while still desperately trying to cover up his past messes and is manipulating everyone to keep the situation under control. Of course, once we get that specific, I feel a bit guilty about discussing what is basically "conspiracy theories" :o If I had to write a wall of text, I figured I could at least give people a chuckle :D On October 11 2016 05:30 Thetwinmasters wrote: Why the fuck should PLD, MP, Midone, and Forev be punished because Puppey and kemal is being shady they send invites to players anyways so that would never happen. I suppose the idea would be that they are not being punished, but instead are being saved from a shady organization. They can still play, just under another organization. Of course, Valve would take no such action without more concrete proof of wrongdoings. | ||
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Thetwinmasters
3578 Posts
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kblueriver
Argentina430 Posts
That's what happens when EE decides to post his blogs somewhere else instead of using liquiddota. | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
On October 11 2016 06:28 Emnjay808 wrote: iirc i believe it was kky and notail who were the founders of Team Secret 1.0. cant find source, but i remember it was said in a interview long ago. https://m.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/4bpfsn/did_team_secret_pay_their_explayers_fly_n0tail/d1bdid6 https://m.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/2rkkn7/hey_everyone_bigdaddyn0tail_here/ whoever founded it is moot because puppey had the reigns pretty early on. | ||
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OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
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BigO
Sweden956 Posts
With all that said, there is pretty much no chance it happened that way. | ||
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Dracolich70
Denmark3820 Posts
On October 11 2016 02:56 spudde123 wrote: Surely alarm bells rings, when former mates are not being paid for 2015, while you are in a similar boat. A month later, Misery and W33 were history on Secret. Both kept silent. We are now in Oct 2016, 7 months after Misery and W33 were kicked, and 2 months after EE was kicked.At the time EE, Misery and w33 hadn't been in the team for more than 5 months or so. The delays didn't yet concern them that much and Kemal/Puppey could come up with different excuses for it originally. But then nothing seemingly changed, it became a problem for the new players too, and also this 10% cut thing seems to be pretty recent information for the players. This isn't even only about money being delayed but it disappearing without the players knowing it. Also pretty sure at the time the players held Puppey in a pretty different light compared to now. Back then if Puppey told them something about Secret and assured them I would assume they take him at his word, but then they had more experiences with him as a teammate, found out that he was apparently making decisions behind their back concerning team finances, and even pretty much screwed up the massive PandaTV deal. EE wrote this: "After the blog came out Kemal and Puppey assured us that it wouldn’t happen to us. Well, it did.". This is while they have not been paid. I understand that the 10% is an accumulative thing to already owed money, and other broken promises like a salary. RTZ even rejoined while allegedly still owed money. | ||
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LuMiX
China5757 Posts
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FFGenerations
7088 Posts
On October 11 2016 05:52 pawinthecrowd wrote: My personal explanation is that they were using the money all the time. Investing them in something, maybe betting them on something, maybe lending them to someone and so on. yeah this is a common thing i think and a good point. like a company comes into a lot of money , then waits a while before passing it on as salaries to its workers, because in the time that it is holding on to all that money it can invest it you don't make a shit ton of money just to immediately pay it to your workers. you delay for a bit and make more money from having that shit ton of money :-Z | ||
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Dracolich70
Denmark3820 Posts
On October 11 2016 09:31 FFGenerations wrote: Their gain is sponsorship money and donations, not tournament prize money, unless they have that in the contract. Sponsorships for a team of TS's stature shouldn't be hard to get.nice asjo yeah this is a common thing i think and a good point. like a company comes into a lot of money , then waits a while before passing it on as salaries to its workers, because in the time that it is holding on to all that money it can invest it you don't make a shit ton of money just to immediately pay it to your workers. you delay for a bit and make more money from having that shit ton of money :-Z If Kemal used the prize money to build his Bootcamp paradise, the least he could do is letting the players in on it, and make them part owners of said paradise, unless they want to sell their part, once they move on. You are suggesting the players are not paid salaries, and the company just banks their money, which in itself cancels out the need for an organisation, especially when you win a lot of money, and unless they benefit from these investments, it is just giving their money for someone to make himself rich. It is pretty shady practice to do what you suggest, because, not only are the workers then working for free, they are not secured their earnings, if investments - which in themselves are risks, with no payoff, and future bankruptcy looming. | ||
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nayumi
Australia6499 Posts
On October 11 2016 05:49 Zea! wrote: What? How can you even let a team that at this point is clearly scamming his players take part at Valve events? Until now it's pretty much Envy's words with Misery's backing. Don't get me wrong I personally am on EE's side in this matter, I just want to state out the facts. Valve can't disqualify a team just because a player or two made a long blog post. Unless Valve steps in and investigate this themselves (or hire someone else to do it), this is pretty much Secret's internal business, and it has nothing to do with Dota2 the game, or Valve's tournaments for that matter. And at this point, I'm not sure if they would even want to investigate further given that it's not exactly their jurisdiction to begin with. Because once they set a precedent, every single conflict in the future between players and owners will require their involvement, which can be too much to handle. | ||
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