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On September 16 2016 15:01 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 14:18 Birdie wrote:I think it was fine because they're pro players who can adjust their farm priority and playstyle to fit their team mates. And it was fine because they got good results during that period, too. ![[image loading]](https://puu.sh/rbEA3/2cfb0f43be.png) PPD struggled to find the solution, and ending up sitting between two stools, where neither really shined. As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams. RTZ rejoined in august 2015, and they only won The Summit 4 and Captains draft, and even though they did get plenty of top placings, it is not like the several 1st placings prior to him rejoining, so saying it is fine is evidently another way of saying it was not a disaster, which it wasn't. This was supposedly meant as an upgrade, and it wasn't - only on paper.
Even with results in front of you, you'll keep spinning it every which way to keep your narrative going. Losing close sets to other tier 1 teams deep into a tournament run definitely implies systemic issues between your mid and safe lane players. Smh
There's exactly zero evidence that RTZ+Sumail is a problem.
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And I suddenly don't give a single shit about EG anymore
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On September 16 2016 19:16 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 15:01 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 14:18 Birdie wrote:I think it was fine because they're pro players who can adjust their farm priority and playstyle to fit their team mates. And it was fine because they got good results during that period, too. PPD struggled to find the solution, and ending up sitting between two stools, where neither really shined. As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams. RTZ rejoined in august 2015, and they only won The Summit 4 and Captains draft, and even though they did get plenty of top placings, it is not like the several 1st placings prior to him rejoining, so saying it is fine is evidently another way of saying it was not a disaster, which it wasn't. This was supposedly meant as an upgrade, and it wasn't - only on paper. Even with results in front of you, you'll keep spinning it every which way to keep your narrative going. Losing close sets to other tier 1 teams deep into a tournament run definitely implies systemic issues between your mid and safe lane players. Smh There's exactly zero evidence that RTZ+Sumail is a problem.
I bet that if Eg with RTZ+Sumail won a TI this guy would still say they did it by a fluke/despite huge internal problems caused by RTZ+Sumail 
haters gonna hate
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On September 16 2016 19:47 PoulsenB wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 19:16 hariooo wrote:On September 16 2016 15:01 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 14:18 Birdie wrote:I think it was fine because they're pro players who can adjust their farm priority and playstyle to fit their team mates. And it was fine because they got good results during that period, too. PPD struggled to find the solution, and ending up sitting between two stools, where neither really shined. As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams. RTZ rejoined in august 2015, and they only won The Summit 4 and Captains draft, and even though they did get plenty of top placings, it is not like the several 1st placings prior to him rejoining, so saying it is fine is evidently another way of saying it was not a disaster, which it wasn't. This was supposedly meant as an upgrade, and it wasn't - only on paper. Even with results in front of you, you'll keep spinning it every which way to keep your narrative going. Losing close sets to other tier 1 teams deep into a tournament run definitely implies systemic issues between your mid and safe lane players. Smh There's exactly zero evidence that RTZ+Sumail is a problem. I bet that if Eg with RTZ+Sumail won a TI this guy would still say they did it by a fluke/despite huge internal problems caused by RTZ+Sumail haters gonna hate
i think it's safe to say the probability of that occurring is the same as his success at Ti after leaving EG twice.
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On September 16 2016 19:16 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 15:01 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 14:18 Birdie wrote:I think it was fine because they're pro players who can adjust their farm priority and playstyle to fit their team mates. And it was fine because they got good results during that period, too. PPD struggled to find the solution, and ending up sitting between two stools, where neither really shined. As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams. RTZ rejoined in august 2015, and they only won The Summit 4 and Captains draft, and even though they did get plenty of top placings, it is not like the several 1st placings prior to him rejoining, so saying it is fine is evidently another way of saying it was not a disaster, which it wasn't. This was supposedly meant as an upgrade, and it wasn't - only on paper. Even with results in front of you, you'll keep spinning it every which way to keep your narrative going. Losing close sets to other tier 1 teams deep into a tournament run definitely implies systemic issues between your mid and safe lane players. Smh There's exactly zero evidence that RTZ+Sumail is a problem. There is no spin, but a comparison in play. It was meant to be an upgrade, but how can you ever say it was?
Most people agree that it was very problematic.
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On September 16 2016 18:19 amiGo_O wrote:
easily four most unlikeable persons in dota 2 and cr1t
cant root for EG anymore
I kind of understand the hate on rtz and Suma1l but who the fuck finds universe or zai unlikable? They are like the mildest personalities in the game with fly and S4.
As for the rtz plus sumail debate, I do think they clash a little, Suma1l was definitely less comfortable than he was with Fear and if you watch the games from that period EG definitely looked less crisp than they did before rtz came (and than this TI).
Their results were good but there were a lot of games which looked like trainwrecks from which they pulled out on ridiculous talent alone. In itself that's fine, but as soon as they met a team with relatively close talent and a better understanding of the patch they would lose, hard.
Of course I don't know if the cause of this is strictly the sumail,rtz farm distribution, it might also have been a problem with Fear only really playing high farming junglers or just them never quite understand the meta enough.
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i don't feel like you need a "leader" to play a coherent dota game. does anyone here really think fy is a leader? yet vg with both black and hao were the best team in the world for a while and pretty much won everything except for one grand final series. misery doesn't even like captaining yet DC were easily the best team at TI outside of wings and had the most clear, identifiable gameplan of the bunch
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Sad, I don't think I could get behind an EG team without ppd.
We'll see, I guess.
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On September 16 2016 04:17 HammerKick wrote:
I'm sorry, but this is not going anywhere.
EG... you made that mistake a third time. How? RTZ is, in my opinion, not working for you.
Who is shotcalling/drafting in this? Universe? I'm super confused.
It literally says cr1t is the captain in the announcement m8
This roster has the talent to win a ti, now we wait and see if cr1t and captain america can handle the captain and coaching stuff.
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On September 16 2016 18:17 spudde123 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 17:50 Dysisa wrote:
I think people greatly overestimate what it takes to become a good captain. In theory, I see absolutely zero reason as to why someone like Cr1t wouldn't be able to step up and become one. Everyone has to start somewhere. Most players are "just players", it isn't really natural for them to step up and take responsibility of preparation, drafting, making calls throughout the game and whatnot. Not to mention managing to keep your composure if you start losing and the team starts arguing. It's far easier to be someone who just makes occasional suggestions from the sidelines than the one making the final decision. I don't really have an opinion as far as cr1t goes, all I have to go on is my impressions of him as a person as I haven't really heard how he is ingame anywhere. But I don't think the transition is easy at all for most players. Maybe cr1t can do fine, we'll see.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think captaining is something you just wake up one day and master, I realize far from everyone in the end has what it takes. But with the way a lot of people talk about captaining, they act like it's some godgiven skill that only a chosen few will ever be blessed with, which I don't buy. There's no reason (that any of us are aware of at least) as to why Cr1t shouldn't be able to become a good captain.
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On September 16 2016 23:55 Dysisa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 18:17 spudde123 wrote:On September 16 2016 17:50 Dysisa wrote:
I think people greatly overestimate what it takes to become a good captain. In theory, I see absolutely zero reason as to why someone like Cr1t wouldn't be able to step up and become one. Everyone has to start somewhere. Most players are "just players", it isn't really natural for them to step up and take responsibility of preparation, drafting, making calls throughout the game and whatnot. Not to mention managing to keep your composure if you start losing and the team starts arguing. It's far easier to be someone who just makes occasional suggestions from the sidelines than the one making the final decision. I don't really have an opinion as far as cr1t goes, all I have to go on is my impressions of him as a person as I haven't really heard how he is ingame anywhere. But I don't think the transition is easy at all for most players. Maybe cr1t can do fine, we'll see. Don't get me wrong, I don't think captaining is something you just wake up one day and master, I realize far from everyone in the end has what it takes. But with the way a lot of people talk about captaining, they act like it's some godgiven skill that only a chosen few will ever be blessed with, which I don't buy. There's no reason (that any of us are aware of at least) as to why Cr1t shouldn't be able to become a good captain.
Might be a good idea to take a few classes in leadership on the side. No massive ones, just a few short ones that give homework to work on based on current situations. Not sure how common that type of education is outside of big companies though.
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On September 16 2016 23:55 Dysisa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 18:17 spudde123 wrote:On September 16 2016 17:50 Dysisa wrote:
I think people greatly overestimate what it takes to become a good captain. In theory, I see absolutely zero reason as to why someone like Cr1t wouldn't be able to step up and become one. Everyone has to start somewhere. Most players are "just players", it isn't really natural for them to step up and take responsibility of preparation, drafting, making calls throughout the game and whatnot. Not to mention managing to keep your composure if you start losing and the team starts arguing. It's far easier to be someone who just makes occasional suggestions from the sidelines than the one making the final decision. I don't really have an opinion as far as cr1t goes, all I have to go on is my impressions of him as a person as I haven't really heard how he is ingame anywhere. But I don't think the transition is easy at all for most players. Maybe cr1t can do fine, we'll see. Don't get me wrong, I don't think captaining is something you just wake up one day and master, I realize far from everyone in the end has what it takes. But with the way a lot of people talk about captaining, they act like it's some godgiven skill that only a chosen few will ever be blessed with, which I don't buy. There's no reason (that any of us are aware of at least) as to why Cr1t shouldn't be able to become a good captain. Leadership is a natural born ability, where some without can learn some tools to compensate for their lack of natural ability.
It is not without reason, captains are few in numbers, and PPD said that NA lacked them, and only had 2, incl. himself.
I have followed Cr1t- for 4 years now, and I have only seen his leadership, when it came to getting SyndereN removed from their Mouz roster, so he can speak up, and he seems to be able to remain calm under pressure, just like Zai can, those are positive traits I reckon, but there has been little put into his hands of making tough decisions.
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Rtz. Lol.
Third time. Lol.
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On September 16 2016 20:23 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 19:16 hariooo wrote:On September 16 2016 15:01 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 14:18 Birdie wrote:I think it was fine because they're pro players who can adjust their farm priority and playstyle to fit their team mates. And it was fine because they got good results during that period, too. PPD struggled to find the solution, and ending up sitting between two stools, where neither really shined. As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams. RTZ rejoined in august 2015, and they only won The Summit 4 and Captains draft, and even though they did get plenty of top placings, it is not like the several 1st placings prior to him rejoining, so saying it is fine is evidently another way of saying it was not a disaster, which it wasn't. This was supposedly meant as an upgrade, and it wasn't - only on paper. Even with results in front of you, you'll keep spinning it every which way to keep your narrative going. Losing close sets to other tier 1 teams deep into a tournament run definitely implies systemic issues between your mid and safe lane players. Smh There's exactly zero evidence that RTZ+Sumail is a problem. There is no spin, but a comparison in play. It was meant to be an upgrade, but how can you ever say it was? Most people agree that it was very problematic.
Because you seem to be making the fundamental mistake of confusing relative placements with team improvement.
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On September 17 2016 02:03 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 20:23 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 19:16 hariooo wrote:On September 16 2016 15:01 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 14:18 Birdie wrote:I think it was fine because they're pro players who can adjust their farm priority and playstyle to fit their team mates. And it was fine because they got good results during that period, too. PPD struggled to find the solution, and ending up sitting between two stools, where neither really shined. As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams. RTZ rejoined in august 2015, and they only won The Summit 4 and Captains draft, and even though they did get plenty of top placings, it is not like the several 1st placings prior to him rejoining, so saying it is fine is evidently another way of saying it was not a disaster, which it wasn't. This was supposedly meant as an upgrade, and it wasn't - only on paper. Even with results in front of you, you'll keep spinning it every which way to keep your narrative going. Losing close sets to other tier 1 teams deep into a tournament run definitely implies systemic issues between your mid and safe lane players. Smh There's exactly zero evidence that RTZ+Sumail is a problem. There is no spin, but a comparison in play. It was meant to be an upgrade, but how can you ever say it was? Most people agree that it was very problematic. Because you seem to be making the fundamental mistake of confusing relative placements with team improvement. No, I watch games, and I am very good at it. I believe your argument rested on placements, as proof things worked, despite the decline in result, and more importantly in how the interaction between RTZ and Sumail worked out, which never was great, and the end result was also RTZ leaving - again.
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How may lanes and jungles will this team need? 5 lanes and 4 jungles?
They are basically the most farm-oriented player on each position.
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On September 17 2016 02:07 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 02:03 hariooo wrote:On September 16 2016 20:23 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 19:16 hariooo wrote:On September 16 2016 15:01 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 14:18 Birdie wrote:I think it was fine because they're pro players who can adjust their farm priority and playstyle to fit their team mates. And it was fine because they got good results during that period, too. PPD struggled to find the solution, and ending up sitting between two stools, where neither really shined. As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams. RTZ rejoined in august 2015, and they only won The Summit 4 and Captains draft, and even though they did get plenty of top placings, it is not like the several 1st placings prior to him rejoining, so saying it is fine is evidently another way of saying it was not a disaster, which it wasn't. This was supposedly meant as an upgrade, and it wasn't - only on paper. Even with results in front of you, you'll keep spinning it every which way to keep your narrative going. Losing close sets to other tier 1 teams deep into a tournament run definitely implies systemic issues between your mid and safe lane players. Smh There's exactly zero evidence that RTZ+Sumail is a problem. There is no spin, but a comparison in play. It was meant to be an upgrade, but how can you ever say it was? Most people agree that it was very problematic. Because you seem to be making the fundamental mistake of confusing relative placements with team improvement. No, I watch games, and I am very good at it. I believe your argument rested on placements, as proof things worked, despite the decline in result, and more importantly in how the interaction between RTZ and Sumail worked out, which never was great, and the end result was also RTZ leaving - again.
No, you cited EG's performance as evidence that RTZ + Sumail didn't work out, but since their team placement was pretty strong it doesn't support your point at all. It's also not evidence that RTZ+Sumail works but burden is on you since you made the claim in the first place.
But yeah I'm sure you're very good at watching games. Top dota watcher EU.
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On September 17 2016 03:12 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 02:07 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 17 2016 02:03 hariooo wrote:On September 16 2016 20:23 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 19:16 hariooo wrote:On September 16 2016 15:01 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 14:18 Birdie wrote:I think it was fine because they're pro players who can adjust their farm priority and playstyle to fit their team mates. And it was fine because they got good results during that period, too. PPD struggled to find the solution, and ending up sitting between two stools, where neither really shined. As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams. RTZ rejoined in august 2015, and they only won The Summit 4 and Captains draft, and even though they did get plenty of top placings, it is not like the several 1st placings prior to him rejoining, so saying it is fine is evidently another way of saying it was not a disaster, which it wasn't. This was supposedly meant as an upgrade, and it wasn't - only on paper. Even with results in front of you, you'll keep spinning it every which way to keep your narrative going. Losing close sets to other tier 1 teams deep into a tournament run definitely implies systemic issues between your mid and safe lane players. Smh There's exactly zero evidence that RTZ+Sumail is a problem. There is no spin, but a comparison in play. It was meant to be an upgrade, but how can you ever say it was? Most people agree that it was very problematic. Because you seem to be making the fundamental mistake of confusing relative placements with team improvement. No, I watch games, and I am very good at it. I believe your argument rested on placements, as proof things worked, despite the decline in result, and more importantly in how the interaction between RTZ and Sumail worked out, which never was great, and the end result was also RTZ leaving - again. No, you cited EG's performance as evidence that RTZ + Sumail didn't work out, but since their team placement was pretty strong it doesn't support your point at all. It's also not evidence that RTZ+Sumail works but burden is on you since you made the claim in the first place. But yeah I'm sure you're very good at watching games. Top dota watcher EU. I said that it didn't work optimally. I also said this, "As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams.". So not sure about the team placement was my point, but they did decline.
You just said, "Because you seem to be making the fundamental mistake of confusing relative placements with team improvement.", seem to relate to you, yes, considering you are using results, as evidence of working.
Yeah, I am good.
" It's also not evidence that RTZ+Sumail works but burden is on you since you made the claim in the first place.". So since this is where you argued, essentially you said nothing at all. You are brilliant.
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On September 17 2016 04:40 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 03:12 hariooo wrote:On September 17 2016 02:07 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 17 2016 02:03 hariooo wrote:On September 16 2016 20:23 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 19:16 hariooo wrote:On September 16 2016 15:01 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 14:18 Birdie wrote:I think it was fine because they're pro players who can adjust their farm priority and playstyle to fit their team mates. And it was fine because they got good results during that period, too. PPD struggled to find the solution, and ending up sitting between two stools, where neither really shined. As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams. RTZ rejoined in august 2015, and they only won The Summit 4 and Captains draft, and even though they did get plenty of top placings, it is not like the several 1st placings prior to him rejoining, so saying it is fine is evidently another way of saying it was not a disaster, which it wasn't. This was supposedly meant as an upgrade, and it wasn't - only on paper. Even with results in front of you, you'll keep spinning it every which way to keep your narrative going. Losing close sets to other tier 1 teams deep into a tournament run definitely implies systemic issues between your mid and safe lane players. Smh There's exactly zero evidence that RTZ+Sumail is a problem. There is no spin, but a comparison in play. It was meant to be an upgrade, but how can you ever say it was? Most people agree that it was very problematic. Because you seem to be making the fundamental mistake of confusing relative placements with team improvement. No, I watch games, and I am very good at it. I believe your argument rested on placements, as proof things worked, despite the decline in result, and more importantly in how the interaction between RTZ and Sumail worked out, which never was great, and the end result was also RTZ leaving - again. No, you cited EG's performance as evidence that RTZ + Sumail didn't work out, but since their team placement was pretty strong it doesn't support your point at all. It's also not evidence that RTZ+Sumail works but burden is on you since you made the claim in the first place. But yeah I'm sure you're very good at watching games. Top dota watcher EU. I said that it didn't work optimally. I also said this, "As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams.". So not sure about the team placement was my point, but they did decline. You just said, "Because you seem to be making the fundamental mistake of confusing relative placements with team improvement.", seem to relate to you, yes, considering you are using results, as evidence of working. Yeah, I am good. " It's also not evidence that RTZ+Sumail works but burden is on you since you made the claim in the first place.". So since this is where you argued, essentially you said nothing at all. You are brilliant.
Them getting 3rd at Frankfurt could just as well mean that although the team got better, OG/Secret improved even more, do you understand?
And when you say their RTZ+Sumail isn't good because they didn't get 1st place as often, you're not realizing that you've actually not proven anything. You've failed to isolate RTZ+Sumail as the cause for the performance. You could just as well say Aui is a better 4 than Fear by that logic, which would be equally pointless.
Your argument seems to be that variable X changed and results went down therefore X was the root cause of the performance. Unfortunately, EG from TI5 to Frankfurt major had variables A, B, C, ..., Z all modified. So to pin it on RTZ+Sumail you need to have arguments specific to that. You simply haven't done so or even tried.
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On September 17 2016 05:22 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 04:40 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 17 2016 03:12 hariooo wrote:On September 17 2016 02:07 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 17 2016 02:03 hariooo wrote:On September 16 2016 20:23 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 19:16 hariooo wrote:On September 16 2016 15:01 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 14:18 Birdie wrote:I think it was fine because they're pro players who can adjust their farm priority and playstyle to fit their team mates. And it was fine because they got good results during that period, too. PPD struggled to find the solution, and ending up sitting between two stools, where neither really shined. As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams. RTZ rejoined in august 2015, and they only won The Summit 4 and Captains draft, and even though they did get plenty of top placings, it is not like the several 1st placings prior to him rejoining, so saying it is fine is evidently another way of saying it was not a disaster, which it wasn't. This was supposedly meant as an upgrade, and it wasn't - only on paper. Even with results in front of you, you'll keep spinning it every which way to keep your narrative going. Losing close sets to other tier 1 teams deep into a tournament run definitely implies systemic issues between your mid and safe lane players. Smh There's exactly zero evidence that RTZ+Sumail is a problem. There is no spin, but a comparison in play. It was meant to be an upgrade, but how can you ever say it was? Most people agree that it was very problematic. Because you seem to be making the fundamental mistake of confusing relative placements with team improvement. No, I watch games, and I am very good at it. I believe your argument rested on placements, as proof things worked, despite the decline in result, and more importantly in how the interaction between RTZ and Sumail worked out, which never was great, and the end result was also RTZ leaving - again. No, you cited EG's performance as evidence that RTZ + Sumail didn't work out, but since their team placement was pretty strong it doesn't support your point at all. It's also not evidence that RTZ+Sumail works but burden is on you since you made the claim in the first place. But yeah I'm sure you're very good at watching games. Top dota watcher EU. I said that it didn't work optimally. I also said this, "As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams.". So not sure about the team placement was my point, but they did decline. You just said, "Because you seem to be making the fundamental mistake of confusing relative placements with team improvement.", seem to relate to you, yes, considering you are using results, as evidence of working. Yeah, I am good. " It's also not evidence that RTZ+Sumail works but burden is on you since you made the claim in the first place.". So since this is where you argued, essentially you said nothing at all. You are brilliant. Them getting 3rd at Frankfurt could just as well mean that although the team got better, OG/Secret improved even more, do you understand? And when you say their RTZ+Sumail isn't good because they didn't get 1st place as often, you're not realizing that you've actually not proven anything. You've failed to isolate RTZ+Sumail as the cause for the performance. You could just as well say Aui is a better 4 than Fear by that logic, which would be equally pointless. Your argument seems to be that variable X changed and results went down therefore X was the root cause of the performance. Unfortunately, EG from TI5 to Frankfurt major had variables A, B, C, ..., Z all modified. So to pin it on RTZ+Sumail you need to have arguments specific to that. You simply haven't done so or even tried. I understand that you can't make up your mind who says what, and more busy trying to have a discussion with yourself, ultimately wasting everyones time.
"And when you say their RTZ+Sumail isn't good". Not sure I said that, because I am pretty sure I didn't say that.
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EPT
