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Evil Geniuses
Roster update
After launching a 24 hour countdown 2 days ago,  Evil Geniuses revealed a multi-day announcement with day 1 announcement being that Fear will be retiring from pro gaming, citing health reasons, and will take a role of a coach.
After TI, Sumail, Fear and Zai left the team, with plenty of rumors going around as to who's replacing them. Will it be Arteezy for the 3rd time? Or will it be the mmr assassin Bulba?
And now, 24 hours later, the new Evil Geniuses roster for the 2016 Fall Season is...
![[image loading]](http://www.liquiddota.com/staff/Julmust/misc/egroster.png)
Arteezy, Universe, Sumail, Zai, Cr1t
(Image courtesy of Evil Geniuses)
It was also announced that former captain PPD will take a break from Dota and join the administrative side of the organization.
Full statement from EG:SAN FRANCISCO, Calif. — September 15, 2016 — Evil Geniuses (EG), a world-leading pro gaming team, is excited to announce a new generation of the brand's Dota 2 team, featuring Andreas Franck 'Cr1t-' Nielsen, Syed 'Suma1l' Hassan, Saahil 'UNiVeRsE' Arora, Ludwig 'zai' Wåhlberg. Rounding out the team will be Artour 'Arteezy' Babaev who will be making his return for a second time following two successful stints with EG previously. Two-time Dota 2 Major winner, Cr1t-, will be taking over the reins as captain of this new roster and fulfilling the support role. The Dane brings a wealth of experience competing at the highest level as a captain in addition to being a breakout success during OG's streak of championship wins this past year. Having just been named coach yesterday, it will be Clinton 'Fear' Loomis' duty to closely monitor and mold this group into a world power, capable of representing EG well on the global esports stage. With his knowledge and work ethic, the sky's the limit to where Fear can help bring this team who are already no stranger to standing atop a podium. Longtime team captain Peter “PPD” Dager has also decided to transition out of his role as an active pro player on the Dota 2 team and into a new business management position for the Evil Geniuses brand. Details on his new position will be announced in the weeks ahead. EG's new roster is looking forward to competing for the first time together on LAN in the coming weeks. Stay tuned to http://www.evilgeniuses.gg/ for the latest updates and be sure to follow us on social media on Facebook and Twitter.
http://evilgeniuses.gg/
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I don't see this new roster being as successful as the ppd rosters
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On September 16 2016 04:05 Thetwinmasters wrote:
I don't see this new roster being as successful as the ppd rosters
i do
3rd place hat trick baby
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Captain where?? Lmao
If this roster survives till next major without egos clashing ,it will be sucess for them
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On September 16 2016 04:05 Thetwinmasters wrote:
I don't see this new roster being as successful as the ppd rosters
at the very least they'll probably play more likeable dota even if less stable
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I love how you wrote "For the Fall 2016 Season", +/- on how long the roster will last? 2 majors, kick rtz and bring back aui LUL?
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pretty sure unless Fear works some behind the scenes magic with his coaching, this team won't have the same success at TI5 or TI6 EG, although the talent alone could win them multiple lans outside of majors
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gonna be interesting to see zai play 5, cr1t and zai should be a deadly combo. Best of luck everyone
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On September 16 2016 04:06 Kamisamanachi wrote:
Captain where?? Lmao
If this roster survives till next major without egos clashing ,it will be sucess for them
Says on the page that Cr1t is taking the captain role
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Anyhow, I can get behind this roster :D hoping for some nice games! Wonder when they play next?
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Now i really wanna know what ppd and miracle do, not much notable players left.
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Nice, EG just became infinitely more likeable.
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hell yes, favorite team of all time by personalities. Hope they do well
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Something's really fishy with "PPD transitioning into management". This team looks amazing on paper, but all those egos will implode it before next major ends.
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Wonder how they function without ppd.
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On September 16 2016 04:09 reDicE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 04:06 Kamisamanachi wrote:
Captain where?? Lmao
If this roster survives till next major without egos clashing ,it will be sucess for them Says on the page that Cr1t is taking the captain role
Thanks ,but that was not my question and I also read it..my point was none of those players look like captain to me .
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On September 16 2016 04:09 calippo wrote:
gonna be interesting to see zai play 5, cr1t and zai should be a deadly combo. Best of luck everyone
im not sure if it's gonna be zai 5. if crit will call it'd make more sense for him to be 5 and let zai play his best role.
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Pretty expected to make a young boys team, but it will not work in the long run.
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Young boys ?? All of them are far from young..
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I'm sorry, but this is not going anywhere.
EG... you made that mistake a third time. How? RTZ is, in my opinion, not working for you.
Who is shotcalling/drafting in this? Universe? I'm super confused.
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EG did what they could. They got some top level talent and crit is a proven captain and support player.
I'm rather skeptical this team will be amazing, but last season of dota certainly taught us to expect the unexpected.
I'm just glad they are still around as an org, there were some very unsettling rumors flying about.
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RTC lol, it will never end, ever. but seriously, this looks really bad. only time we've seen universe play without ppd he was a disaster. cr1t's a great player and all but has he even ever captained a good team by now? i don't know dude, this has the potential to become demon's and bdiz' eg all over again lol. alrite they goot good players so maybe not as terrible but it doesn't look good at all. unless cr1t turns out to be some strategical genius, then they're fine.
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Oh, I didn't read properly, crit will be the captain.
Well... let's see.
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On September 16 2016 04:17 StarMoon wrote:
EG did what they could. They got some top level talent and crit is a proven captain and support player.
I'm rather skeptical this team will be amazing, but last season of dota certainly taught us to expect the unexpected.
I'm just glad they are still around as an org, there were some very unsettling rumors flying about.
I don't think Crit- has ever been a captain on any team that I'm aware of.
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On September 16 2016 04:16 Kamisamanachi wrote:
Young boys ?? All of them are far from young.. Only Universe is old at 26, the rest are 17-20. That is young boys.
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On September 16 2016 04:18 Kabras wrote:
RTC lol, it will never end, ever. but seriously, this looks really bad. only time we've seen universe play without ppd he was a disaster. cr1t's a great player and all but has he even ever captained a good team by now? i don't know dude, this has the potential to become demon's and bdiz' eg all over again lol. alrite they goot good players so maybe not as terrible but it doesn't look good at all. unless cr1t turns out to be some strategical genius, then they're fine.
I don't remember crit doing anything relevant to judge his captainship qualities before joining og
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I've had an inkling feeling that ppd won't be with the team but i didn't expect suma1l,rtz,crit,zai to be with them.
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i can see rtz leaving eg again for some other team in near future. lol
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
if they can stick together and actually work as a team in a cohesive union this might just work. Not sure if it will though :D
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Individually thats some sick raw talent in this team, theres no question that their mechanical skill is top notch.
Lets see if they can get the drafting and ingame-coordination done, i guess thats where the coach comes in.
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you guys can meme about artour (and he sorta deserves it) but acting like this EG team is more likely to fail than succeed?
like are some of you serious lol? being skeptical is one thing but this is still NA's best team by any reasonable guess
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i love EG but i'm not down with this. fear retiring had class and grace - without peter, it's not EG anymore. he is what made EG into the powerhouse it was.
i fully believe that peter's leadership ingame is what made arteezy/fear/sumail/universe into the players they became. good luck to them, but this just feels like another version of a C9 roster
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Losing your longtime godly carry player and then by far the best captain in the west for the last 2 years has gotta hurt.
Personally I like all the players on this roster so I'll probably be cheering for them and team NP. Only time will tell if they will actually work well together/have a solid captain/arteezy won't implode but just on pure talent this is easily one of the best teams in the world.
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I anticipate this team being a disaster. Should make for some fun reading on Reddit I guess.
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On September 16 2016 04:23 hariooo wrote:
you guys can meme about artour (and he sorta deserves it) but acting like this EG team is more likely to fail than succeed?
like are some of you serious lol? being skeptical is one thing but this is still NA's best team by any reasonable guess
I'd say DC is better than them on paper rn
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On September 16 2016 04:23 hariooo wrote:
you guys can meme about artour (and he sorta deserves it) but acting like this EG team is more likely to fail than succeed?
like are some of you serious lol? being skeptical is one thing but this is still NA's best team by any reasonable guess
these are NA's best players. As far as being a team time will tell. They have no drafter, no captain, all are very quiet ingame, several huge egos. Yes it's more than likely they'll fail.
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So the great watour cycle of life continues.
Strange about PPD, like he made EG relevant in dota2 again... than again maybe too much NaCl is bad for your health and he is better without it. Interesting times ahead (6 months tops before RTZ joins another team).
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I could see this working out really well. Or falling on its face. I don't see them having a middle ground. They will either win all the time or never win at all. The main problem I have is that I don't think Arteezy should be playing the carry hero. He's always been a better mid player in my eyes. He makes a lot of odd plays as a carry. On Secret with EE I think they had more of a problem with drafting and captaining more than ARTZ (who played pretty damn good at TI).
Also I dunno why EG would pick up Artz again.... he's joined and left the roster what? 4 times now in the past 2 years now ?
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On September 16 2016 04:23 hariooo wrote:
you guys can meme about artour (and he sorta deserves it) but acting like this EG team is more likely to fail than succeed?
like are some of you serious lol? being skeptical is one thing but this is still NA's best team by any reasonable guess
yea we're dead serious. na's best team doesn't say that much when the only relevant competition there consists of 1 or 2 teams. also if u look at this roster, none of them have any history captaining shit by now. except zai but that was a long time ago and didn't even do it for too long. but i guess we'll see how sumail and rtz teamfight and move without ppd.
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On September 16 2016 04:23 gulati wrote:
i fully believe that peter's leadership ingame is what made arteezy/fear/sumail/universe into the players they became.
i think the only one that's true about is universe
we'll have to see with sumail i guess but his skillset is pretty independent of captaining/strategy
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I mean this is the exact roster I expected but still, well at least they are more likeable to me now
the potential is definitely there, big question mark on anything else though
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You guys forget that EG got 3rd place at TI4, with Mason playing carry mirana. That's where Fear's coaching can get you. And I don't think any of this players' egos are so big that they won't listen to the oldest man ever. It's all up to Fear, but it sure as hell can work.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
Well, it was predicted.
But what the hell, anyways, how is the team with 2 supports that like farm, Arteezy of all carries, Suma1l ( who is honestly way better with farm) and Universe (who is definitely better with farm), going to function?
On September 16 2016 04:32 kblueriver wrote:
You guys forget that EG got 3rd place at TI4, with Mason playing carry mirana. That's where Fear's coaching can get you. And I don't think any of this players' egos are so big that they won't listen to the oldest man ever. It's all up to Fear, but it sure as hell can work.
Mason was legit good, i don't know what you're talking about. Not to mention, mirana back then was also one of the more popular (and successful!) heroes. At leas you could mention weaver or something.
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On September 16 2016 04:34 lolfail9001 wrote:
Well, it was predicted.
But what the hell, anyways, how is the team with 2 supports that like farm, Arteezy of all carries, Suma1l ( who is honestly way better with farm) and Universe (who is definitely better with farm), going to function?
Hope next patch makes the increases number of jungle camps so you can have two iron taloners.
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On September 16 2016 04:34 lolfail9001 wrote:
Well, it was predicted.
But what the hell, anyways, how is the team with 2 supports that like farm, Arteezy of all carries, Suma1l ( who is honestly way better with farm) and Universe (who is definitely better with farm), going to function?
5 midas every game.
It's a good team without a captain and I think we can confidently say that captains are a huge part of any succesful team, but maybe cr1t will step up.
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Lalalaland34498 Posts
Interesting
As others have already said I wonder about how good Cr1t is as a captain
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On September 16 2016 04:32 kblueriver wrote:
You guys forget that EG got 3rd place at TI4, with Mason playing carry mirana. That's where Fear's coaching can get you. And I don't think any of this players' egos are so big that they won't listen to the oldest man ever. It's all up to Fear, but it sure as hell can work.
yea but fear's not in the game to make the calls ppd made. or draft for that matter. ppd was really good at making the game easy to play for his team. who knows, maybe cr1t turns out to be a really good captain and it will work out. but if he's not and sumail and rtz get to decide for themselves then lol.
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Really sad to see ppd kicked to the curb and replaced. The tweet with hand that bite makes so much sense as it was a team decision. Not sure if I will root for eg anymore as without ppd that team is not the same. 
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On September 16 2016 04:34 lolfail9001 wrote:
Well, it was predicted.
But what the hell, anyways, how is the team with 2 supports that like farm, Arteezy of all carries, Suma1l ( who is honestly way better with farm) and Universe (who is definitely better with farm), going to function?
Simple, they invade enemy jungle too
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Now I wonder how decent that Twitch money really is. The transition for Peter is an ok idea. It all depends on what he sees himself doing to grow esports asn an industry so I hope he has some ideas because he isn't lacking in the skill to execute. He simply needs inspiration.
Since NA is so weak this EG squad will do more than fine and will qualify in most tournaments even if there is only 1 slot and have to compete with DC for it. By the time the first Major comes around we'll have a better understanding of their form, Crits leadership and Fear settling in as coach.
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Going to be interesting, that is sure. No idea how Crit is as a captain, so that one I guess we just have to wait and see about. One thing that really strikes my mind with this lineup is the fact they have 5 rather/very greedy players and that usually doesn't work out unless we get a patch with a huge meta change.
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Past captains for EG were PPD with fear (backing him up). Now we have Crit with Fear coaching. Pretty big difference that might work or not, time will tell. Assume Crit will play pos 5.
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I can't see this team going anywhere, even with Fear's coaching.
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On September 16 2016 04:11 Dysisa wrote:
Nice, EG just became infinitely more likeable.
That was my reaction as well.
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On September 16 2016 04:53 Tru_m4n wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 04:11 Dysisa wrote:
Nice, EG just became infinitely more likeable. That was my reaction as well.
Mine was kind of the opposite. I don't have a relation to any of the players in the new team while I "knew" fear and ppd from their content and time playing.
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PPD would get along great with EE and AUI. It's a shame he passed that up smh
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I'm scurred. Fear and PPD were the backbone of the team. With them both in support capacities now I can see this team imploding real quick. Like on paper those are 5 god tier players, but in practice I have my doubts if they can make it all work. Cr1t is fantastic, but is he a captain? You've got 3 carry players, who is going to sacrifice their preferred playstyle like Fear would? They're all so fucking good but they're going to need to change how they play to work around each other. Buckle up I guess.
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Wow, it feels so strange to see EG without Fear+PPD.... they were like the heart and the brain of the team.
Skill-wise on paper this new team is SUPER strong, a sort of new Secret 2.0 but i don't know... i think the Fear+PPD duo is hard if not impossible to match.
This also means PPD retired as a player? Farewell to one of the very best captains ever of Dota, top 5 even though i don't like his personality that much.
Cr1t will have to take PPD's role as a captain... he's a godly player but pressure might catch him
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That blows my mind that ppd is retiring
Such a greedy team too. RTZ and Universe have kind of proven they don't know how to limit their greed for the team, and crit played a lot of hard 4 stuff too.
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The upside of all this is EG now has the hottest boy and grill in DotA with Crit and Zai. They also have the best hair by far between Sumail and Crit.
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RTZ and two other farming cores lul guys did we learn nothing at all
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I expect PPD will play a roll as a secondary coach. Farm distribution is the main concern, but I have faith in Cr1t and zai to make space and call plays.
I think everyone forgets that the Sumail, Arteezy, and Universe EG actually did well after they got a few kinks sorted out. People overreacted because it was disappointing for those who expected them to dominate after TI or who only put value on first place finishes rather than consistent top 3.
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hahahaha it just blows my mind that they pick up rtz for a third time.. wow.
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On September 16 2016 05:38 DavoS wrote:
That blows my mind that ppd is retiring
Such a greedy team too. RTZ and Universe have kind of proven they don't know how to limit their greed for the team, and crit played a lot of hard 4 stuff too.
How have Universe and RTZ who have played together for EG with great success proven they don't know how to limit their greed for the team?
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On September 16 2016 06:10 Skynx wrote:
RTZ and two other farming cores lul guys did we learn nothing at all
You mean not place worse than third?
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rtz sumail universe... impossible to cheer for this team
I hope they fail badly
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As usual, they can win everything, but first bump in the road will show their true colors. I don't think the same lineup will be attending TI, but maybe Fear can do some magic.
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On September 16 2016 06:38 mycro wrote:
hahahaha it just blows my mind that they pick up rtz for a third time.. wow.
He's like Lion to Hell and back and back and back and....
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Team looks really good,i cant belive ppd stop playing for an office job,imagine how much stressful and soul eating is pro dota, i cant see other reason only this.
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So following these GrandGranT streams has been a complete waste of my time and BananaSlamJamma is going to have to toil in obscurity a while longer.
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On September 16 2016 07:22 phantomlancer23 wrote:
Team looks really good,i cant belive ppd stop playing for an office job,imagine how much stressful and soul eating is pro dota, i cant see other reason only this.
For all we know there couldve been a bunch drama behind the scenes and he was kicked. Its not like they'll say anything if it was. Until PPD explicitly says he chose a management role over a spot in EG which he otherwise wouldve had, its probably best to believe nothing.
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Team looks kinda good, but at the same time i cant really find any faith for em when ppd isnt there. Propably gonna end up being another semi-good team fighting about dumb shit and killing themselves.
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Who will lead this roster in game? GG boys back to being SAD
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Rtz and Sumail can't lead.
Universe and Zai are a bit quite.
Crit is new.
The lack of shot caller will hurt this team a lot. Though if they can overcome that I can't see them not making at least top 3 next Major.
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On September 16 2016 06:48 bcpanther wrote:
rtz sumail universe... impossible to cheer for this team
I hope they fail badly
How can someone dislike Universe..
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On September 16 2016 07:50 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 07:22 phantomlancer23 wrote:
Team looks really good,i cant belive ppd stop playing for an office job,imagine how much stressful and soul eating is pro dota, i cant see other reason only this. For all we know there couldve been a bunch drama behind the scenes and he was kicked. Its not like they'll say anything if it was. Until PPD explicitly says he chose a management role over a spot in EG which he otherwise wouldve had, its probably best to believe nothing.
I think it's more likely that the rest of the team would rather play with rtz than him so he got offered the choice between a management job or trying to build up a new team on his own and he chose the easiest road.
It's not like if (or when) this version of EG fails he can't come back in and set the record straight on why EG was the most successful team under his reign.
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loaded with talent, can't wait to see what they can do
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who's the captain tho, crit?
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On September 16 2016 08:35 icystorage wrote:
who's the captain tho, crit?
Yeah, first sentence of the second paragraph.
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On September 16 2016 08:38 Chewbacca. wrote:Yeah, first sentence of the second paragraph.
To be fair, mentally drop the smile of Cr1t, add him glasses, and he almost looks like ppd.
Well, more than any of the other 4 would, anyway.
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... double, sorry
(where is the delete function in this forum seriously)
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On September 16 2016 08:15 nayumi wrote:
Rtz and Sumail can't lead.
Universe and Zai are a bit quite.
Crit is new.
The lack of shot caller will hurt this team a lot. Though if they can overcome that I can't see them not making at least top 3 next Major.
PPD was as "new" (as in, by popular perception) when he shotcalled sadboys
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I predict they do well for a while but on a timer before egos start to clash.
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Excited for the new roster, kinda wished ppd stayed as 5 and zai on the offlane instead of Universe but this lineup is still pretty sick. I don't think Arteezy will leave again as ppd is no longer on the team and this feels more like artours team than any team before. I think Cr1t- has the potential to be a top tier captain, I certainly think he possesses the knowledge and if Misery can step up to be a Captain that leads his team to the Grand Finals of TI so can Cr1t-, or at least he deserves a shot at it. Skillwise, I don't think you can ask for much more than this, every player is a top 5 player at his position at least, but chemistry will be far more important but then again most players have played with each other over the years, basically everyone except Cr1t-. On paper this EG team is the strongest team in the west (looking at you liquid) but we'll see how they manage, definitely won't change my EG flair anytime soon. #BleedBlue
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I think this roster looks very strong and is definitely an improvement. People in here are blowing the intangibles way out of proportion. This team is basically fielding top talent at every single position.
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First thing first.
I think PPD not in the team (coach/player) is really a disturbing thing, at least for me. Totally new style of drafting, I guess.
Second.
Why would you kick RTZ TWICE so that you will recruit him for the THIRD time?
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This team is so scary. I find it funny that so many people judge the team before seeing they play. Same thing happened with w33/Misery/Pld/EE/ppy Secret roster that turned out to be a victorious team.
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On September 16 2016 09:32 adzzlie wrote:
First thing first.
I think PPD not in the team (coach/player) is really a disturbing thing, at least for me. Totally new style of drafting, I guess.
Second.
Why would you kick RTZ TWICE so that you will recruit him for the THIRD time?
They never kicked RTZ, he left because of ppd and the opportunity to play with friends.
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Remember the deleted PPD's tweet about "The hand that feeds"? Chances are he got voted out instead of willingly switch to management.
I think the key to succeeding is Universe. Unless he returns to form where he can actually play tempo offlaners like 1-2 years ago, this team is doomed to fail. I just don't see a team without PPD that is able to control the egos to let Universe play his greedy playstyle.
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damn... like... PPD is one of my favorite players in dota 2 and definitely my favorite captain. Who am I going to root for now?
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This team is great on paper, hope they can play well together and not play like 5 headless chickens
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On September 16 2016 04:19 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 04:16 Kamisamanachi wrote:
Young boys ?? All of them are far from young.. Only Universe is old at 26, the rest are 17-20. That is young boys.
Honey, I concede, I'm more than old.
"of course you are, you're 31 with 2 kids. Stop playing games. Now go fold the laundry"
Affirmative
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On September 16 2016 09:16 SupLilSon wrote:
I think this roster looks very strong and is definitely an improvement. People in here are blowing the intangibles way out of proportion. This team is basically fielding top talent at every single position. This has never in itself formed a great team, actually it highlights the problem, or at least one of them; ego.
Fear has a job on his hands, and these guys have to gel, and work as a unit, rather than a gathering of individual skill, as often happens when there are no "watercarriers", or experienced minds pulling the strings.
Two years ago I spent time trying to explain Cr1t- that confidence is not just good, as you can become overconfident; cocky, while he thought confidence was just a positive, and you couldn't be too confident.
On September 16 2016 10:32 brinepumps wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 04:19 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 04:16 Kamisamanachi wrote:
Young boys ?? All of them are far from young.. Only Universe is old at 26, the rest are 17-20. That is young boys. Honey, I concede, I'm more than old. "of course you are, you're 31 with 2 kids. Stop playing games. Now go fold the laundry" Affirmative It was meant in quotes and in context of the ages. Just like you call a footballer old, when at 30+. Kamisamanachi thought they were far from young.
You are still young at 31, even if the wife and two kids most likely sucked most juice out of you. In context of gamers, you are old, although merely a child compared to me.
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Hard to know how Crit will do as a captain, but he'll be fine as a 5. Dude can make serious magic happen and I don't see that as being particularly farm dependent. The dynamics between the cores and shotcalling will be the issues here.
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EG got like 14 years younger. Their total age barely adds passes 100 now.
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On September 16 2016 10:40 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 09:16 SupLilSon wrote:
I think this roster looks very strong and is definitely an improvement. People in here are blowing the intangibles way out of proportion. This team is basically fielding top talent at every single position. This has never in itself formed a great team, actually it highlights the problem, or at least one of them; ego. Fear has a job on his hands, and these guys have to gel, and work as a unit, rather than a gathering of individual skill, as often happens when there are no "watercarriers", or experienced minds pulling the strings. Two years ago I spent time trying to explain Cr1t- that confidence is not just good, as you can become overconfident; cocky, while he thought confidence was just a positive, and you couldn't be too confident. Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 10:32 brinepumps wrote:On September 16 2016 04:19 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 04:16 Kamisamanachi wrote:
Young boys ?? All of them are far from young.. Only Universe is old at 26, the rest are 17-20. That is young boys. Honey, I concede, I'm more than old. "of course you are, you're 31 with 2 kids. Stop playing games. Now go fold the laundry" Affirmative It was meant in quotes and in context of the ages. Just like you call a footballer old, when at 30+. Kamisamanachi thought they were far from young. You are still young at 31, even if the wife and two kids most likely sucked most juice out of you. In context of gamers, you are old, although merely a child compared to me.
That's a fair assessment and I can't deny that there's a chance this team will underperform. However, cohesiveness and teamwork can be developed over time. I think it's harder to significantly increase individual skill across a whole team. If this team gels, which I believe they will, they will be a serious top international contender. Most of these players have played together for extensive periods of time through several metas. People are overplaying how much "ego" these individual players have and how they will clash. I'm sure all of these players had multiple options during the shuffle and chose to play together. This isn't a rag tag group of players rushing to find teams at the end of the shuffle. But sure, we've seen many dream teams fail to live up to the hype.
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On September 16 2016 10:06 babysimba wrote:
Remember the deleted PPD's tweet about "The hand that feeds"? Chances are he got voted out instead of willingly switch to management.
I think the key to succeeding is Universe. Unless he returns to form where he can actually play tempo offlaners like 1-2 years ago, this team is doomed to fail. I just don't see a team without PPD that is able to control the egos to let Universe play his greedy playstyle.
Yep. There is no way PPD chose management over playing. I think after round 2 fail with Arteezy it was only a matter of time until something like this happened.
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Tbh Cr1t on 5 feels like a waste. He won OG games by just playing out of his mind and making ridiculous plays on hereos like Tusk and Lion and just using items to their max potential. Having him playing heroes like Chen or dazzle or some shit just feels like he's not given the opportunity to do what he excels at. Same with Zai I'd say. Probaly the two best 4s i nteh world and one of them has to play a 5. And I don't think Cr1t drafted a single game for OG, it was all Fly with the mastermind drafts.
And didn't we all witness the Arteezy/Suma1l "playstyle clash" the last time it happened? What makes people think it will be different the second time around?
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On September 16 2016 10:40 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 09:16 SupLilSon wrote:
I think this roster looks very strong and is definitely an improvement. People in here are blowing the intangibles way out of proportion. This team is basically fielding top talent at every single position. This has never in itself formed a great team, actually it highlights the problem, or at least one of them; ego. Fear has a job on his hands, and these guys have to gel, and work as a unit, rather than a gathering of individual skill, as often happens when there are no "watercarriers", or experienced minds pulling the strings. Two years ago I spent time trying to explain Cr1t- that confidence is not just good, as you can become overconfident; cocky, while he thought confidence was just a positive, and you couldn't be too confident. Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 10:32 brinepumps wrote:On September 16 2016 04:19 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 04:16 Kamisamanachi wrote:
Young boys ?? All of them are far from young.. Only Universe is old at 26, the rest are 17-20. That is young boys. Honey, I concede, I'm more than old. "of course you are, you're 31 with 2 kids. Stop playing games. Now go fold the laundry" Affirmative It was meant in quotes and in context of the ages. Just like you call a footballer old, when at 30+. Kamisamanachi thought they were far from young. You are still young at 31, even if the wife and two kids most likely sucked most juice out of you. In context of gamers, you are old, although merely a child compared to me.
SEE HONEY, I'M MERELY A CHILD, SO FUCK THESE LAUNDRY I'M GONNA GO PLAY KITE OUTSIDE
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The main issue with Crit as captain is that he still needs the other 4 to trust his calls. Fear and PPD should help with that.
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IDK why ppl keep saying sumail/rtz playstyle clash, where's your proof? It was completely fine last time.
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I'm not sold on this lineup. I don't think rtz plays well enough from the safe lane. Still prefer if a team builds around him as a mid player.
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Vatican City State1573 Posts
6 months to go for RTZ join secret again
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On September 16 2016 12:03 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 10:40 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 09:16 SupLilSon wrote:
I think this roster looks very strong and is definitely an improvement. People in here are blowing the intangibles way out of proportion. This team is basically fielding top talent at every single position. This has never in itself formed a great team, actually it highlights the problem, or at least one of them; ego. Fear has a job on his hands, and these guys have to gel, and work as a unit, rather than a gathering of individual skill, as often happens when there are no "watercarriers", or experienced minds pulling the strings. Two years ago I spent time trying to explain Cr1t- that confidence is not just good, as you can become overconfident; cocky, while he thought confidence was just a positive, and you couldn't be too confident. On September 16 2016 10:32 brinepumps wrote:On September 16 2016 04:19 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 04:16 Kamisamanachi wrote:
Young boys ?? All of them are far from young.. Only Universe is old at 26, the rest are 17-20. That is young boys. Honey, I concede, I'm more than old. "of course you are, you're 31 with 2 kids. Stop playing games. Now go fold the laundry" Affirmative It was meant in quotes and in context of the ages. Just like you call a footballer old, when at 30+. Kamisamanachi thought they were far from young. You are still young at 31, even if the wife and two kids most likely sucked most juice out of you. In context of gamers, you are old, although merely a child compared to me. That's a fair assessment and I can't deny that there's a chance this team will underperform. However, cohesiveness and teamwork can be developed over time. I think it's harder to significantly increase individual skill across a whole team. If this team gels, which I believe they will, they will be a serious top international contender. Most of these players have played together for extensive periods of time through several metas. People are overplaying how much "ego" these individual players have and how they will clash. I'm sure all of these players had multiple options during the shuffle and chose to play together. This isn't a rag tag group of players rushing to find teams at the end of the shuffle. But sure, we've seen many dream teams fail to live up to the hype. Yes, it can, but it requires an open mind, and above all an acknowledgement of the most likely pitfalls. In short an awareness of their weaknesses, while all of them are fueled by a lot of(maybe too much) belief in their abilities - which is not easy. Outside this, playstyles have to mesh, and if not, they have to file off what could be their best strength, just in order to synergize or play into someone elses strength on the team. So there are some barriers, and building teams are far more difficult, than just picking ie the five best on each position.
Last time it was very hard for PPD to make RTZ and Sumail work optimally, and it always felt like eclectic, even when all players played well. Maybe it will be easier to sync, when there is no PPD with his mindset on how to play and direct, and now people of almost equal age and mindset..
I don't think their egos will clash. I think they will get along for the most part. It is more in the danger of being used to being the star player that has to make plays, which will be a problem if 4 or 5, are feeling like stars. That is why you rarely see starstudded teams succeed, as you need someone or several to glue it all together, and that often takes a lesser ego.
When I say ego, I don't mean big-headed, just someone aware of their strengths and status.
On September 16 2016 13:00 Birdie wrote:
IDK why ppl keep saying sumail/rtz playstyle clash, where's your proof? It was completely fine last time. The problem was that when Sumail was brought to EG, as RTZ left, he was propelled into a front seat position, where EG made sure Sumail could play to his strengths, and Fear was secondary or tertiary priority. When RTZ re-entered, they had to find a way to play into RTZ's strengths, which is often farm dependant, while not sacrificing Sumails strengths too much, and most of the time it never worked optimally, and either both or either one had to not play to their strengths.
Why do you think it was fine? And how? To me it felt like trying to fit a square peg into a hole, and EG went life and death through so many match it is unreal, and a credit to their tenacity, that they did get far in many tournaments.
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I think it was fine because they're pro players who can adjust their farm priority and playstyle to fit their team mates. And it was fine because they got good results during that period, too.
![[image loading]](https://puu.sh/rbEA3/2cfb0f43be.png)
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On September 16 2016 14:18 Birdie wrote:I think it was fine because they're pro players who can adjust their farm priority and playstyle to fit their team mates. And it was fine because they got good results during that period, too.
only two wins and two 3rd places at Majors, RTZ+Sumail=trash team confirmed
Seriously though haters gonna hate. I, for one, will give this roster a chance, because they deserve it.
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On September 16 2016 14:18 Birdie wrote:I think it was fine because they're pro players who can adjust their farm priority and playstyle to fit their team mates. And it was fine because they got good results during that period, too. PPD struggled to find the solution, and ending up sitting between two stools, where neither really shined.
As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams.
RTZ rejoined in august 2015, and they only won The Summit 4 and Captains draft, and even though they did get plenty of top placings, it is not like the several 1st placings prior to him rejoining, so saying it is fine is evidently another way of saying it was not a disaster, which it wasn't. This was supposedly meant as an upgrade, and it wasn't - only on paper.
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They "only" won two tournaments and placed top 3 in nearly every other one. But they weren't able to play together.
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On September 16 2016 08:56 lolnoty wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 08:15 nayumi wrote:
Rtz and Sumail can't lead.
Universe and Zai are a bit quite.
Crit is new.
The lack of shot caller will hurt this team a lot. Though if they can overcome that I can't see them not making at least top 3 next Major. PPD was as "new" (as in, by popular perception) when he shotcalled sadboys
EG wasn't the powerhouse in Dota 2 as they are today. The pressure and expectation were much lower. Crit is now responsible for captaining/shot-calling a TI winning team. I might be wrong but from my understanding back at OG it was Fly and Notail who assumed this role. Not saying they will crash and burn, but it's quite a big task to step up to and succeed at. Glamorous pubstar mids like Sumail or Miracle pop up every year, but there haven't been as many captains on ppd's caliber.
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It's going to take 3-5 months before their drafting get anywhere close to decent. Does anyone on this team have actual drafting experience in the last 2 years? Modern drafting is really, really hard. And the loss of ppd is going to be felt extremely quickly.
But let's talk about ppd. He just attached himself to Twitch/Amazon, much like Charlie. If he stays there, that's a great 5th pick that no one saw coming. He's made 2.6mil USD in prize money (plus salary). He leaves as the most consistent captain in Dota history and transitions into another career that can more than easily sustain him for the rest of his life. The guy has supreme game-sense.
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We have no idea how cr1t is going to be as a captain. He could be shit. He could be amazing. How about we see it before we say this team is beyond doomed. They have a phenomenal roster on paper and I'm excited to see it in practice.
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On September 16 2016 16:21 Taf the Ghost wrote:
It's going to take 3-5 months before their drafting get anywhere close to decent. Does anyone on this team have actual drafting experience in the last 2 years? Modern drafting is really, really hard. And the loss of ppd is going to be felt extremely quickly.
But let's talk about ppd. He just attached himself to Twitch/Amazon, much like Charlie. If he stays there, that's a great 5th pick that no one saw coming. He's made 2.6mil USD in prize money (plus salary). He leaves as the most consistent captain in Dota history and transitions into another career that can more than easily sustain him for the rest of his life. The guy has supreme game-sense. Think Zai had 1 match to be drafter in, in Secret, and got removed afterwards.
To be honest I don't think PPD attached himself, I think it was more a matter of, "We want to do this, and they want to do this, so take this offer or leave it, while we make a profit off this assemble in merchandise and sponsorships.".
PPD is just sitting out waiting to be the rescuer. PPDs ego is too big to leave on this note.
Maybe Day 3, will be CLQ, BSJ, Moo and PPD and some other on 3 letters.
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On September 16 2016 12:31 shizaep wrote:
Tbh Cr1t on 5 feels like a waste. He won OG games by just playing out of his mind and making ridiculous plays on hereos like Tusk and Lion and just using items to their max potential. Having him playing heroes like Chen or dazzle or some shit just feels like he's not given the opportunity to do what he excels at. Same with Zai I'd say. Probaly the two best 4s i nteh world and one of them has to play a 5. And I don't think Cr1t drafted a single game for OG, it was all Fly with the mastermind drafts.
And didn't we all witness the Arteezy/Suma1l "playstyle clash" the last time it happened? What makes people think it will be different the second time around?
what is arteezy's playstyle vs sumail's, really?
same thing with crit playing 5 vs playing 4 pos. what is the difference? it's extremely hard to tell unless you compare games played closely together in the same situations. i'd say it's impossible really, it's felt but can't be seen.
does crit's ES need farm? certainly not, like most ES players, they only need one or two items total.
he played 5 in a lot of OG games where they fielded a midas phoenix and prepared to play for a shiva's timing.
i highly doubt crit will be the one playing chen, wisp, or dazzle either. like many teams, for example MVP.P, they'll probably just figure out who is what under which heroes they decide to pick.
actually the same thing with arteezy and sumail also except moreso on the point of arteezy playing heroes meant for the safelane more often.
slark is in the meta, so is morphling, etc. these are all heroes that do well on their own.
it will be different the second time around because players improve.
are drafts and gameplan somehow infallible, or less influential than player habits?
MLG world finals
sometimes it's the heroes slightly more than the overall execution itself.
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I think people greatly overestimate what it takes to become a good captain. In theory, I see absolutely zero reason as to why someone like Cr1t wouldn't be able to step up and become one. Everyone has to start somewhere.
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I don't think the difference for cr1t is really the farm he is going to get. I don't think he was particularly known for heroes that farm a lot as a 4 but rather at least for me his signature heroes were mostly heroes that move around a lot and make stuff happen. For example Tusk and Wisp around the Frankfurt Major time, later on Earth Spirit and Elder Titan. One of the supports is going to have to take a bit more traditional lane support duties, but it's not like they haven't occasionally played that role already.
Maybe one can look at it in a way that one of the supports can't use that sort of playmaking strength, but at least they are not on an opposing team. If cr1t can do well as a captain then even if he plays 5 it's hardly a waste.
On September 16 2016 17:50 Dysisa wrote:
I think people greatly overestimate what it takes to become a good captain. In theory, I see absolutely zero reason as to why someone like Cr1t wouldn't be able to step up and become one. Everyone has to start somewhere.
Most players are "just players", it isn't really natural for them to step up and take responsibility of preparation, drafting, making calls throughout the game and whatnot. Not to mention managing to keep your composure if you start losing and the team starts arguing. It's far easier to be someone who just makes occasional suggestions from the sidelines than the one making the final decision. I don't really have an opinion as far as cr1t goes, all I have to go on is my impressions of him as a person as I haven't really heard how he is ingame anywhere. But I don't think the transition is easy at all for most players. Maybe cr1t can do fine, we'll see.
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easily four most unlikeable persons in dota 2 and cr1t
cant root for EG anymore
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On September 16 2016 17:50 Dysisa wrote:
I think people greatly overestimate what it takes to become a good captain. In theory, I see absolutely zero reason as to why someone like Cr1t wouldn't be able to step up and become one. Everyone has to start somewhere.
The vast vast majority of people are not leaders at all. Most are followers and clingers on, some pretend to be leaders but are the furthest thing from, and a tiny amount are actual leaders. Maybe he will end up being one but no one greatly overestimates what it takes to be a good captain. If anything its severely underestimated.
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Poland3751 Posts
I'm not rooting for anything with SumaiL.
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On September 16 2016 15:01 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 14:18 Birdie wrote:I think it was fine because they're pro players who can adjust their farm priority and playstyle to fit their team mates. And it was fine because they got good results during that period, too. PPD struggled to find the solution, and ending up sitting between two stools, where neither really shined. As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams. RTZ rejoined in august 2015, and they only won The Summit 4 and Captains draft, and even though they did get plenty of top placings, it is not like the several 1st placings prior to him rejoining, so saying it is fine is evidently another way of saying it was not a disaster, which it wasn't. This was supposedly meant as an upgrade, and it wasn't - only on paper.
Even with results in front of you, you'll keep spinning it every which way to keep your narrative going. Losing close sets to other tier 1 teams deep into a tournament run definitely implies systemic issues between your mid and safe lane players. Smh
There's exactly zero evidence that RTZ+Sumail is a problem.
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And I suddenly don't give a single shit about EG anymore
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On September 16 2016 19:16 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 15:01 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 14:18 Birdie wrote:I think it was fine because they're pro players who can adjust their farm priority and playstyle to fit their team mates. And it was fine because they got good results during that period, too. PPD struggled to find the solution, and ending up sitting between two stools, where neither really shined. As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams. RTZ rejoined in august 2015, and they only won The Summit 4 and Captains draft, and even though they did get plenty of top placings, it is not like the several 1st placings prior to him rejoining, so saying it is fine is evidently another way of saying it was not a disaster, which it wasn't. This was supposedly meant as an upgrade, and it wasn't - only on paper. Even with results in front of you, you'll keep spinning it every which way to keep your narrative going. Losing close sets to other tier 1 teams deep into a tournament run definitely implies systemic issues between your mid and safe lane players. Smh There's exactly zero evidence that RTZ+Sumail is a problem.
I bet that if Eg with RTZ+Sumail won a TI this guy would still say they did it by a fluke/despite huge internal problems caused by RTZ+Sumail 
haters gonna hate
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On September 16 2016 19:47 PoulsenB wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 19:16 hariooo wrote:On September 16 2016 15:01 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 14:18 Birdie wrote:I think it was fine because they're pro players who can adjust their farm priority and playstyle to fit their team mates. And it was fine because they got good results during that period, too. PPD struggled to find the solution, and ending up sitting between two stools, where neither really shined. As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams. RTZ rejoined in august 2015, and they only won The Summit 4 and Captains draft, and even though they did get plenty of top placings, it is not like the several 1st placings prior to him rejoining, so saying it is fine is evidently another way of saying it was not a disaster, which it wasn't. This was supposedly meant as an upgrade, and it wasn't - only on paper. Even with results in front of you, you'll keep spinning it every which way to keep your narrative going. Losing close sets to other tier 1 teams deep into a tournament run definitely implies systemic issues between your mid and safe lane players. Smh There's exactly zero evidence that RTZ+Sumail is a problem. I bet that if Eg with RTZ+Sumail won a TI this guy would still say they did it by a fluke/despite huge internal problems caused by RTZ+Sumail haters gonna hate
i think it's safe to say the probability of that occurring is the same as his success at Ti after leaving EG twice.
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On September 16 2016 19:16 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 15:01 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 14:18 Birdie wrote:I think it was fine because they're pro players who can adjust their farm priority and playstyle to fit their team mates. And it was fine because they got good results during that period, too. PPD struggled to find the solution, and ending up sitting between two stools, where neither really shined. As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams. RTZ rejoined in august 2015, and they only won The Summit 4 and Captains draft, and even though they did get plenty of top placings, it is not like the several 1st placings prior to him rejoining, so saying it is fine is evidently another way of saying it was not a disaster, which it wasn't. This was supposedly meant as an upgrade, and it wasn't - only on paper. Even with results in front of you, you'll keep spinning it every which way to keep your narrative going. Losing close sets to other tier 1 teams deep into a tournament run definitely implies systemic issues between your mid and safe lane players. Smh There's exactly zero evidence that RTZ+Sumail is a problem. There is no spin, but a comparison in play. It was meant to be an upgrade, but how can you ever say it was?
Most people agree that it was very problematic.
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On September 16 2016 18:19 amiGo_O wrote:
easily four most unlikeable persons in dota 2 and cr1t
cant root for EG anymore
I kind of understand the hate on rtz and Suma1l but who the fuck finds universe or zai unlikable? They are like the mildest personalities in the game with fly and S4.
As for the rtz plus sumail debate, I do think they clash a little, Suma1l was definitely less comfortable than he was with Fear and if you watch the games from that period EG definitely looked less crisp than they did before rtz came (and than this TI).
Their results were good but there were a lot of games which looked like trainwrecks from which they pulled out on ridiculous talent alone. In itself that's fine, but as soon as they met a team with relatively close talent and a better understanding of the patch they would lose, hard.
Of course I don't know if the cause of this is strictly the sumail,rtz farm distribution, it might also have been a problem with Fear only really playing high farming junglers or just them never quite understand the meta enough.
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i don't feel like you need a "leader" to play a coherent dota game. does anyone here really think fy is a leader? yet vg with both black and hao were the best team in the world for a while and pretty much won everything except for one grand final series. misery doesn't even like captaining yet DC were easily the best team at TI outside of wings and had the most clear, identifiable gameplan of the bunch
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Sad, I don't think I could get behind an EG team without ppd.
We'll see, I guess.
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On September 16 2016 04:17 HammerKick wrote:
I'm sorry, but this is not going anywhere.
EG... you made that mistake a third time. How? RTZ is, in my opinion, not working for you.
Who is shotcalling/drafting in this? Universe? I'm super confused.
It literally says cr1t is the captain in the announcement m8
This roster has the talent to win a ti, now we wait and see if cr1t and captain america can handle the captain and coaching stuff.
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On September 16 2016 18:17 spudde123 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 17:50 Dysisa wrote:
I think people greatly overestimate what it takes to become a good captain. In theory, I see absolutely zero reason as to why someone like Cr1t wouldn't be able to step up and become one. Everyone has to start somewhere. Most players are "just players", it isn't really natural for them to step up and take responsibility of preparation, drafting, making calls throughout the game and whatnot. Not to mention managing to keep your composure if you start losing and the team starts arguing. It's far easier to be someone who just makes occasional suggestions from the sidelines than the one making the final decision. I don't really have an opinion as far as cr1t goes, all I have to go on is my impressions of him as a person as I haven't really heard how he is ingame anywhere. But I don't think the transition is easy at all for most players. Maybe cr1t can do fine, we'll see.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think captaining is something you just wake up one day and master, I realize far from everyone in the end has what it takes. But with the way a lot of people talk about captaining, they act like it's some godgiven skill that only a chosen few will ever be blessed with, which I don't buy. There's no reason (that any of us are aware of at least) as to why Cr1t shouldn't be able to become a good captain.
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On September 16 2016 23:55 Dysisa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 18:17 spudde123 wrote:On September 16 2016 17:50 Dysisa wrote:
I think people greatly overestimate what it takes to become a good captain. In theory, I see absolutely zero reason as to why someone like Cr1t wouldn't be able to step up and become one. Everyone has to start somewhere. Most players are "just players", it isn't really natural for them to step up and take responsibility of preparation, drafting, making calls throughout the game and whatnot. Not to mention managing to keep your composure if you start losing and the team starts arguing. It's far easier to be someone who just makes occasional suggestions from the sidelines than the one making the final decision. I don't really have an opinion as far as cr1t goes, all I have to go on is my impressions of him as a person as I haven't really heard how he is ingame anywhere. But I don't think the transition is easy at all for most players. Maybe cr1t can do fine, we'll see. Don't get me wrong, I don't think captaining is something you just wake up one day and master, I realize far from everyone in the end has what it takes. But with the way a lot of people talk about captaining, they act like it's some godgiven skill that only a chosen few will ever be blessed with, which I don't buy. There's no reason (that any of us are aware of at least) as to why Cr1t shouldn't be able to become a good captain.
Might be a good idea to take a few classes in leadership on the side. No massive ones, just a few short ones that give homework to work on based on current situations. Not sure how common that type of education is outside of big companies though.
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On September 16 2016 23:55 Dysisa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 18:17 spudde123 wrote:On September 16 2016 17:50 Dysisa wrote:
I think people greatly overestimate what it takes to become a good captain. In theory, I see absolutely zero reason as to why someone like Cr1t wouldn't be able to step up and become one. Everyone has to start somewhere. Most players are "just players", it isn't really natural for them to step up and take responsibility of preparation, drafting, making calls throughout the game and whatnot. Not to mention managing to keep your composure if you start losing and the team starts arguing. It's far easier to be someone who just makes occasional suggestions from the sidelines than the one making the final decision. I don't really have an opinion as far as cr1t goes, all I have to go on is my impressions of him as a person as I haven't really heard how he is ingame anywhere. But I don't think the transition is easy at all for most players. Maybe cr1t can do fine, we'll see. Don't get me wrong, I don't think captaining is something you just wake up one day and master, I realize far from everyone in the end has what it takes. But with the way a lot of people talk about captaining, they act like it's some godgiven skill that only a chosen few will ever be blessed with, which I don't buy. There's no reason (that any of us are aware of at least) as to why Cr1t shouldn't be able to become a good captain. Leadership is a natural born ability, where some without can learn some tools to compensate for their lack of natural ability.
It is not without reason, captains are few in numbers, and PPD said that NA lacked them, and only had 2, incl. himself.
I have followed Cr1t- for 4 years now, and I have only seen his leadership, when it came to getting SyndereN removed from their Mouz roster, so he can speak up, and he seems to be able to remain calm under pressure, just like Zai can, those are positive traits I reckon, but there has been little put into his hands of making tough decisions.
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Rtz. Lol.
Third time. Lol.
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On September 16 2016 20:23 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 19:16 hariooo wrote:On September 16 2016 15:01 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 14:18 Birdie wrote:I think it was fine because they're pro players who can adjust their farm priority and playstyle to fit their team mates. And it was fine because they got good results during that period, too. PPD struggled to find the solution, and ending up sitting between two stools, where neither really shined. As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams. RTZ rejoined in august 2015, and they only won The Summit 4 and Captains draft, and even though they did get plenty of top placings, it is not like the several 1st placings prior to him rejoining, so saying it is fine is evidently another way of saying it was not a disaster, which it wasn't. This was supposedly meant as an upgrade, and it wasn't - only on paper. Even with results in front of you, you'll keep spinning it every which way to keep your narrative going. Losing close sets to other tier 1 teams deep into a tournament run definitely implies systemic issues between your mid and safe lane players. Smh There's exactly zero evidence that RTZ+Sumail is a problem. There is no spin, but a comparison in play. It was meant to be an upgrade, but how can you ever say it was? Most people agree that it was very problematic.
Because you seem to be making the fundamental mistake of confusing relative placements with team improvement.
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On September 17 2016 02:03 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2016 20:23 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 19:16 hariooo wrote:On September 16 2016 15:01 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 14:18 Birdie wrote:I think it was fine because they're pro players who can adjust their farm priority and playstyle to fit their team mates. And it was fine because they got good results during that period, too. PPD struggled to find the solution, and ending up sitting between two stools, where neither really shined. As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams. RTZ rejoined in august 2015, and they only won The Summit 4 and Captains draft, and even though they did get plenty of top placings, it is not like the several 1st placings prior to him rejoining, so saying it is fine is evidently another way of saying it was not a disaster, which it wasn't. This was supposedly meant as an upgrade, and it wasn't - only on paper. Even with results in front of you, you'll keep spinning it every which way to keep your narrative going. Losing close sets to other tier 1 teams deep into a tournament run definitely implies systemic issues between your mid and safe lane players. Smh There's exactly zero evidence that RTZ+Sumail is a problem. There is no spin, but a comparison in play. It was meant to be an upgrade, but how can you ever say it was? Most people agree that it was very problematic. Because you seem to be making the fundamental mistake of confusing relative placements with team improvement. No, I watch games, and I am very good at it. I believe your argument rested on placements, as proof things worked, despite the decline in result, and more importantly in how the interaction between RTZ and Sumail worked out, which never was great, and the end result was also RTZ leaving - again.
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How may lanes and jungles will this team need? 5 lanes and 4 jungles?
They are basically the most farm-oriented player on each position.
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On September 17 2016 02:07 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 02:03 hariooo wrote:On September 16 2016 20:23 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 19:16 hariooo wrote:On September 16 2016 15:01 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 14:18 Birdie wrote:I think it was fine because they're pro players who can adjust their farm priority and playstyle to fit their team mates. And it was fine because they got good results during that period, too. PPD struggled to find the solution, and ending up sitting between two stools, where neither really shined. As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams. RTZ rejoined in august 2015, and they only won The Summit 4 and Captains draft, and even though they did get plenty of top placings, it is not like the several 1st placings prior to him rejoining, so saying it is fine is evidently another way of saying it was not a disaster, which it wasn't. This was supposedly meant as an upgrade, and it wasn't - only on paper. Even with results in front of you, you'll keep spinning it every which way to keep your narrative going. Losing close sets to other tier 1 teams deep into a tournament run definitely implies systemic issues between your mid and safe lane players. Smh There's exactly zero evidence that RTZ+Sumail is a problem. There is no spin, but a comparison in play. It was meant to be an upgrade, but how can you ever say it was? Most people agree that it was very problematic. Because you seem to be making the fundamental mistake of confusing relative placements with team improvement. No, I watch games, and I am very good at it. I believe your argument rested on placements, as proof things worked, despite the decline in result, and more importantly in how the interaction between RTZ and Sumail worked out, which never was great, and the end result was also RTZ leaving - again.
No, you cited EG's performance as evidence that RTZ + Sumail didn't work out, but since their team placement was pretty strong it doesn't support your point at all. It's also not evidence that RTZ+Sumail works but burden is on you since you made the claim in the first place.
But yeah I'm sure you're very good at watching games. Top dota watcher EU.
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On September 17 2016 03:12 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 02:07 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 17 2016 02:03 hariooo wrote:On September 16 2016 20:23 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 19:16 hariooo wrote:On September 16 2016 15:01 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 14:18 Birdie wrote:I think it was fine because they're pro players who can adjust their farm priority and playstyle to fit their team mates. And it was fine because they got good results during that period, too. PPD struggled to find the solution, and ending up sitting between two stools, where neither really shined. As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams. RTZ rejoined in august 2015, and they only won The Summit 4 and Captains draft, and even though they did get plenty of top placings, it is not like the several 1st placings prior to him rejoining, so saying it is fine is evidently another way of saying it was not a disaster, which it wasn't. This was supposedly meant as an upgrade, and it wasn't - only on paper. Even with results in front of you, you'll keep spinning it every which way to keep your narrative going. Losing close sets to other tier 1 teams deep into a tournament run definitely implies systemic issues between your mid and safe lane players. Smh There's exactly zero evidence that RTZ+Sumail is a problem. There is no spin, but a comparison in play. It was meant to be an upgrade, but how can you ever say it was? Most people agree that it was very problematic. Because you seem to be making the fundamental mistake of confusing relative placements with team improvement. No, I watch games, and I am very good at it. I believe your argument rested on placements, as proof things worked, despite the decline in result, and more importantly in how the interaction between RTZ and Sumail worked out, which never was great, and the end result was also RTZ leaving - again. No, you cited EG's performance as evidence that RTZ + Sumail didn't work out, but since their team placement was pretty strong it doesn't support your point at all. It's also not evidence that RTZ+Sumail works but burden is on you since you made the claim in the first place. But yeah I'm sure you're very good at watching games. Top dota watcher EU. I said that it didn't work optimally. I also said this, "As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams.". So not sure about the team placement was my point, but they did decline.
You just said, "Because you seem to be making the fundamental mistake of confusing relative placements with team improvement.", seem to relate to you, yes, considering you are using results, as evidence of working.
Yeah, I am good.
" It's also not evidence that RTZ+Sumail works but burden is on you since you made the claim in the first place.". So since this is where you argued, essentially you said nothing at all. You are brilliant.
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On September 17 2016 04:40 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 03:12 hariooo wrote:On September 17 2016 02:07 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 17 2016 02:03 hariooo wrote:On September 16 2016 20:23 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 19:16 hariooo wrote:On September 16 2016 15:01 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 14:18 Birdie wrote:I think it was fine because they're pro players who can adjust their farm priority and playstyle to fit their team mates. And it was fine because they got good results during that period, too. PPD struggled to find the solution, and ending up sitting between two stools, where neither really shined. As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams. RTZ rejoined in august 2015, and they only won The Summit 4 and Captains draft, and even though they did get plenty of top placings, it is not like the several 1st placings prior to him rejoining, so saying it is fine is evidently another way of saying it was not a disaster, which it wasn't. This was supposedly meant as an upgrade, and it wasn't - only on paper. Even with results in front of you, you'll keep spinning it every which way to keep your narrative going. Losing close sets to other tier 1 teams deep into a tournament run definitely implies systemic issues between your mid and safe lane players. Smh There's exactly zero evidence that RTZ+Sumail is a problem. There is no spin, but a comparison in play. It was meant to be an upgrade, but how can you ever say it was? Most people agree that it was very problematic. Because you seem to be making the fundamental mistake of confusing relative placements with team improvement. No, I watch games, and I am very good at it. I believe your argument rested on placements, as proof things worked, despite the decline in result, and more importantly in how the interaction between RTZ and Sumail worked out, which never was great, and the end result was also RTZ leaving - again. No, you cited EG's performance as evidence that RTZ + Sumail didn't work out, but since their team placement was pretty strong it doesn't support your point at all. It's also not evidence that RTZ+Sumail works but burden is on you since you made the claim in the first place. But yeah I'm sure you're very good at watching games. Top dota watcher EU. I said that it didn't work optimally. I also said this, "As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams.". So not sure about the team placement was my point, but they did decline. You just said, "Because you seem to be making the fundamental mistake of confusing relative placements with team improvement.", seem to relate to you, yes, considering you are using results, as evidence of working. Yeah, I am good. " It's also not evidence that RTZ+Sumail works but burden is on you since you made the claim in the first place.". So since this is where you argued, essentially you said nothing at all. You are brilliant.
Them getting 3rd at Frankfurt could just as well mean that although the team got better, OG/Secret improved even more, do you understand?
And when you say their RTZ+Sumail isn't good because they didn't get 1st place as often, you're not realizing that you've actually not proven anything. You've failed to isolate RTZ+Sumail as the cause for the performance. You could just as well say Aui is a better 4 than Fear by that logic, which would be equally pointless.
Your argument seems to be that variable X changed and results went down therefore X was the root cause of the performance. Unfortunately, EG from TI5 to Frankfurt major had variables A, B, C, ..., Z all modified. So to pin it on RTZ+Sumail you need to have arguments specific to that. You simply haven't done so or even tried.
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On September 17 2016 05:22 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 04:40 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 17 2016 03:12 hariooo wrote:On September 17 2016 02:07 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 17 2016 02:03 hariooo wrote:On September 16 2016 20:23 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 19:16 hariooo wrote:On September 16 2016 15:01 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 14:18 Birdie wrote:I think it was fine because they're pro players who can adjust their farm priority and playstyle to fit their team mates. And it was fine because they got good results during that period, too. PPD struggled to find the solution, and ending up sitting between two stools, where neither really shined. As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams. RTZ rejoined in august 2015, and they only won The Summit 4 and Captains draft, and even though they did get plenty of top placings, it is not like the several 1st placings prior to him rejoining, so saying it is fine is evidently another way of saying it was not a disaster, which it wasn't. This was supposedly meant as an upgrade, and it wasn't - only on paper. Even with results in front of you, you'll keep spinning it every which way to keep your narrative going. Losing close sets to other tier 1 teams deep into a tournament run definitely implies systemic issues between your mid and safe lane players. Smh There's exactly zero evidence that RTZ+Sumail is a problem. There is no spin, but a comparison in play. It was meant to be an upgrade, but how can you ever say it was? Most people agree that it was very problematic. Because you seem to be making the fundamental mistake of confusing relative placements with team improvement. No, I watch games, and I am very good at it. I believe your argument rested on placements, as proof things worked, despite the decline in result, and more importantly in how the interaction between RTZ and Sumail worked out, which never was great, and the end result was also RTZ leaving - again. No, you cited EG's performance as evidence that RTZ + Sumail didn't work out, but since their team placement was pretty strong it doesn't support your point at all. It's also not evidence that RTZ+Sumail works but burden is on you since you made the claim in the first place. But yeah I'm sure you're very good at watching games. Top dota watcher EU. I said that it didn't work optimally. I also said this, "As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams.". So not sure about the team placement was my point, but they did decline. You just said, "Because you seem to be making the fundamental mistake of confusing relative placements with team improvement.", seem to relate to you, yes, considering you are using results, as evidence of working. Yeah, I am good. " It's also not evidence that RTZ+Sumail works but burden is on you since you made the claim in the first place.". So since this is where you argued, essentially you said nothing at all. You are brilliant. Them getting 3rd at Frankfurt could just as well mean that although the team got better, OG/Secret improved even more, do you understand? And when you say their RTZ+Sumail isn't good because they didn't get 1st place as often, you're not realizing that you've actually not proven anything. You've failed to isolate RTZ+Sumail as the cause for the performance. You could just as well say Aui is a better 4 than Fear by that logic, which would be equally pointless. Your argument seems to be that variable X changed and results went down therefore X was the root cause of the performance. Unfortunately, EG from TI5 to Frankfurt major had variables A, B, C, ..., Z all modified. So to pin it on RTZ+Sumail you need to have arguments specific to that. You simply haven't done so or even tried. I understand that you can't make up your mind who says what, and more busy trying to have a discussion with yourself, ultimately wasting everyones time.
"And when you say their RTZ+Sumail isn't good". Not sure I said that, because I am pretty sure I didn't say that.
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If sumail+rtz is the reason why rtz left then why are they on the same team again? 99% sure it was ppd+rtz which resulted in rtz leaving.
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RTZ again? Removing EG banner from my profile right now...
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On September 17 2016 06:13 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 05:22 hariooo wrote:On September 17 2016 04:40 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 17 2016 03:12 hariooo wrote:On September 17 2016 02:07 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 17 2016 02:03 hariooo wrote:On September 16 2016 20:23 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 19:16 hariooo wrote:On September 16 2016 15:01 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 14:18 Birdie wrote:I think it was fine because they're pro players who can adjust their farm priority and playstyle to fit their team mates. And it was fine because they got good results during that period, too. PPD struggled to find the solution, and ending up sitting between two stools, where neither really shined. As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams. RTZ rejoined in august 2015, and they only won The Summit 4 and Captains draft, and even though they did get plenty of top placings, it is not like the several 1st placings prior to him rejoining, so saying it is fine is evidently another way of saying it was not a disaster, which it wasn't. This was supposedly meant as an upgrade, and it wasn't - only on paper. Even with results in front of you, you'll keep spinning it every which way to keep your narrative going. Losing close sets to other tier 1 teams deep into a tournament run definitely implies systemic issues between your mid and safe lane players. Smh There's exactly zero evidence that RTZ+Sumail is a problem. There is no spin, but a comparison in play. It was meant to be an upgrade, but how can you ever say it was? Most people agree that it was very problematic. Because you seem to be making the fundamental mistake of confusing relative placements with team improvement. No, I watch games, and I am very good at it. I believe your argument rested on placements, as proof things worked, despite the decline in result, and more importantly in how the interaction between RTZ and Sumail worked out, which never was great, and the end result was also RTZ leaving - again. No, you cited EG's performance as evidence that RTZ + Sumail didn't work out, but since their team placement was pretty strong it doesn't support your point at all. It's also not evidence that RTZ+Sumail works but burden is on you since you made the claim in the first place. But yeah I'm sure you're very good at watching games. Top dota watcher EU. I said that it didn't work optimally. I also said this, "As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams.". So not sure about the team placement was my point, but they did decline. You just said, "Because you seem to be making the fundamental mistake of confusing relative placements with team improvement.", seem to relate to you, yes, considering you are using results, as evidence of working. Yeah, I am good. " It's also not evidence that RTZ+Sumail works but burden is on you since you made the claim in the first place.". So since this is where you argued, essentially you said nothing at all. You are brilliant. Them getting 3rd at Frankfurt could just as well mean that although the team got better, OG/Secret improved even more, do you understand? And when you say their RTZ+Sumail isn't good because they didn't get 1st place as often, you're not realizing that you've actually not proven anything. You've failed to isolate RTZ+Sumail as the cause for the performance. You could just as well say Aui is a better 4 than Fear by that logic, which would be equally pointless. Your argument seems to be that variable X changed and results went down therefore X was the root cause of the performance. Unfortunately, EG from TI5 to Frankfurt major had variables A, B, C, ..., Z all modified. So to pin it on RTZ+Sumail you need to have arguments specific to that. You simply haven't done so or even tried. I understand that you can't make up your mind who says what, and more busy trying to have a discussion with yourself, ultimately wasting everyones time. "And when you say their RTZ+Sumail isn't good". Not sure I said that, because I am pretty sure I didn't say that.
It's pretty clear that you're saying EG got worse with the return of RTZ and implied that the RTZ+Sumail combination was what caused it. That you can't actually defend the point with anything resembling an argument outside of being salty at me is enough though.
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RTZ and sumail was a solid roster that had good results, if there was a issue it was personality clashes, and I think ppd's twitter has told us where that problem was
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What might have been missed out of these discussions is the previous iteration with Sumail+RTZ was also a "dream-team" same as this one. You don't build superstar teams and expect them or us (the fans) to be satisified with getting 3rd at some tournament or even winning some "smaller" tournaments. The last 3-4 lineups RTZ has been on has been built to win the biggest tournaments, not just get decent results.
To be honest, with a lineup like they have now, anything but winning pretty much everything will be seen as a disapointment. There is a difference between say the new Alliance getting 3rd at a major and this EG getting 3rd.
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As sad as I am about PPD and Fear no longer in the actual team, I think too many people are making an assumption that Cr1t won't make a good captain, egos will get too big and clash and that ultimately, the team is going to fail within 6 months. How about ppl chill and wait and see what happens? Nobody knows and it could turn out to be the best iteration of EG yet (especially if Arteezy can return to his Secret form back in 2015).
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I will miss PPD networth and average KDA. Selfless starving pos 5 playstyle. Great capt. Wish succesfull year for him, coach Fear and new EG lineup
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On September 17 2016 08:50 BigO wrote:
What might have been missed out of these discussions is the previous iteration with Sumail+RTZ was also a "dream-team" same as this one. You don't build superstar teams and expect them or us (the fans) to be satisified with getting 3rd at some tournament or even winning some "smaller" tournaments. The last 3-4 lineups RTZ has been on has been built to win the biggest tournaments, not just get decent results.
To be honest, with a lineup like they have now, anything but winning pretty much everything will be seen as a disapointment. There is a difference between say the new Alliance getting 3rd at a major and this EG getting 3rd.
I feel like all the players bar Cr1t had longer periods of shitty results last year, getting into TOP3s somewhat consistently would be a great success for them in the first 2 major seasons. Especially the consistency part without a great drafter in PPD and leader gelling personality ingame in Fear.
It was very different last year as you had dominating teams swapping positions, the pressure to get results was much higher.
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On September 17 2016 07:31 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 06:13 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 17 2016 05:22 hariooo wrote:On September 17 2016 04:40 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 17 2016 03:12 hariooo wrote:On September 17 2016 02:07 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 17 2016 02:03 hariooo wrote:On September 16 2016 20:23 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 19:16 hariooo wrote:On September 16 2016 15:01 Dracolich70 wrote:
[quote]PPD struggled to find the solution, and ending up sitting between two stools, where neither really shined.
As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams.
RTZ rejoined in august 2015, and they only won The Summit 4 and Captains draft, and even though they did get plenty of top placings, it is not like the several 1st placings prior to him rejoining, so saying it is fine is evidently another way of saying it was not a disaster, which it wasn't. This was supposedly meant as an upgrade, and it wasn't - only on paper.
Even with results in front of you, you'll keep spinning it every which way to keep your narrative going. Losing close sets to other tier 1 teams deep into a tournament run definitely implies systemic issues between your mid and safe lane players. Smh There's exactly zero evidence that RTZ+Sumail is a problem. There is no spin, but a comparison in play. It was meant to be an upgrade, but how can you ever say it was? Most people agree that it was very problematic. Because you seem to be making the fundamental mistake of confusing relative placements with team improvement. No, I watch games, and I am very good at it. I believe your argument rested on placements, as proof things worked, despite the decline in result, and more importantly in how the interaction between RTZ and Sumail worked out, which never was great, and the end result was also RTZ leaving - again. No, you cited EG's performance as evidence that RTZ + Sumail didn't work out, but since their team placement was pretty strong it doesn't support your point at all. It's also not evidence that RTZ+Sumail works but burden is on you since you made the claim in the first place. But yeah I'm sure you're very good at watching games. Top dota watcher EU. I said that it didn't work optimally. I also said this, "As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams.". So not sure about the team placement was my point, but they did decline. You just said, "Because you seem to be making the fundamental mistake of confusing relative placements with team improvement.", seem to relate to you, yes, considering you are using results, as evidence of working. Yeah, I am good. " It's also not evidence that RTZ+Sumail works but burden is on you since you made the claim in the first place.". So since this is where you argued, essentially you said nothing at all. You are brilliant. Them getting 3rd at Frankfurt could just as well mean that although the team got better, OG/Secret improved even more, do you understand? And when you say their RTZ+Sumail isn't good because they didn't get 1st place as often, you're not realizing that you've actually not proven anything. You've failed to isolate RTZ+Sumail as the cause for the performance. You could just as well say Aui is a better 4 than Fear by that logic, which would be equally pointless. Your argument seems to be that variable X changed and results went down therefore X was the root cause of the performance. Unfortunately, EG from TI5 to Frankfurt major had variables A, B, C, ..., Z all modified. So to pin it on RTZ+Sumail you need to have arguments specific to that. You simply haven't done so or even tried. I understand that you can't make up your mind who says what, and more busy trying to have a discussion with yourself, ultimately wasting everyones time. "And when you say their RTZ+Sumail isn't good". Not sure I said that, because I am pretty sure I didn't say that. It's pretty clear that you're saying EG got worse with the return of RTZ and implied that the RTZ+Sumail combination was what caused it. That you can't actually defend the point with anything resembling an argument outside of being salty at me is enough though. I am sure you can see there is a difference between, "RTZ+Sumail isn't good" and "it got worse.". Well, it should. And now you try to reconstruct something that has been pointed out, and yet you try to figure out what was actually said, when it is black on white.
It did. It was meant as an upgrade, and wasn't. On paper it should have been an upgrade, but it never worked optimally. But I have written this many times, and you misquote me on end.
When this becomes you wanting me to indulge in your own narrative, that you project onto me, it is no longer me you are trying to discuss with, but some idea in your head. When you changing your narrative, to amend your faults, and still get it wrong, it becomes an endless stream of trying to point out your glaring errors that distort a conversation from the get go, only to continue, and continue from an idea I am at fault here. If you watch games like you read, I am not surprised you see nothing.
I have defended my point even before you entered. No one cares to pursuade you to see what you can't see, and start off by saying it isn't true, only to end, you don't know either way.
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On September 18 2016 01:20 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2016 07:31 hariooo wrote:On September 17 2016 06:13 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 17 2016 05:22 hariooo wrote:On September 17 2016 04:40 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 17 2016 03:12 hariooo wrote:On September 17 2016 02:07 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 17 2016 02:03 hariooo wrote:On September 16 2016 20:23 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 16 2016 19:16 hariooo wrote:
[quote]
Even with results in front of you, you'll keep spinning it every which way to keep your narrative going. Losing close sets to other tier 1 teams deep into a tournament run definitely implies systemic issues between your mid and safe lane players. Smh
There's exactly zero evidence that RTZ+Sumail is a problem. There is no spin, but a comparison in play. It was meant to be an upgrade, but how can you ever say it was? Most people agree that it was very problematic. Because you seem to be making the fundamental mistake of confusing relative placements with team improvement. No, I watch games, and I am very good at it. I believe your argument rested on placements, as proof things worked, despite the decline in result, and more importantly in how the interaction between RTZ and Sumail worked out, which never was great, and the end result was also RTZ leaving - again. No, you cited EG's performance as evidence that RTZ + Sumail didn't work out, but since their team placement was pretty strong it doesn't support your point at all. It's also not evidence that RTZ+Sumail works but burden is on you since you made the claim in the first place. But yeah I'm sure you're very good at watching games. Top dota watcher EU. I said that it didn't work optimally. I also said this, "As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams.". So not sure about the team placement was my point, but they did decline. You just said, "Because you seem to be making the fundamental mistake of confusing relative placements with team improvement.", seem to relate to you, yes, considering you are using results, as evidence of working. Yeah, I am good. " It's also not evidence that RTZ+Sumail works but burden is on you since you made the claim in the first place.". So since this is where you argued, essentially you said nothing at all. You are brilliant. Them getting 3rd at Frankfurt could just as well mean that although the team got better, OG/Secret improved even more, do you understand? And when you say their RTZ+Sumail isn't good because they didn't get 1st place as often, you're not realizing that you've actually not proven anything. You've failed to isolate RTZ+Sumail as the cause for the performance. You could just as well say Aui is a better 4 than Fear by that logic, which would be equally pointless. Your argument seems to be that variable X changed and results went down therefore X was the root cause of the performance. Unfortunately, EG from TI5 to Frankfurt major had variables A, B, C, ..., Z all modified. So to pin it on RTZ+Sumail you need to have arguments specific to that. You simply haven't done so or even tried. I understand that you can't make up your mind who says what, and more busy trying to have a discussion with yourself, ultimately wasting everyones time. "And when you say their RTZ+Sumail isn't good". Not sure I said that, because I am pretty sure I didn't say that. It's pretty clear that you're saying EG got worse with the return of RTZ and implied that the RTZ+Sumail combination was what caused it. That you can't actually defend the point with anything resembling an argument outside of being salty at me is enough though. I am sure you can see there is a difference between, "RTZ+Sumail isn't good" and "it got worse.". Well, it should. And now you try to reconstruct something that has been pointed out, and yet you try to figure out what was actually said, when it is black on white. It did. It was meant as an upgrade, and wasn't. On paper it should have been an upgrade, but it never worked optimally. But I have written this many times, and you misquote me on end.When this becomes you wanting me to indulge in your own narrative, that you project onto me, it is no longer me you are trying to discuss with, but some idea in your head. When you changing your narrative, to amend your faults, and still get it wrong, it becomes an endless stream of trying to point out your glaring errors that distort a conversation from the get go, only to continue, and continue from an idea I am at fault here. If you watch games like you read, I am not surprised you see nothing. I have defended my point even before you entered. No one cares to pursuade you to see what you can't see, and start off by saying it isn't true, only to end, you don't know either way.
Repeating something over and over and never supporting it with few real arguments. "I'm really good at watching games" isn't saying anything.
And if you're having a hard time writing maybe stick to shorter English sentences?
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I have to say, "I'm really good at watching games" must surely get an end of year LiquidDota quote of the year award 
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I mean, if we want to be real here. RTZ+Sumail lineup didn't win any Valve events while the lineup before that did (TI5) so there's always that. That should be about as much proof you could need in this discussion?
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On September 19 2016 09:36 BigO wrote:
I mean, if we want to be real here. RTZ+Sumail lineup didn't win any Valve events while the lineup before that did (TI5) so there's always that. That should be about as much proof you could need in this discussion?
The Lineup was still fine, and did well. You can't win them all and EG probably weren't as hungry as before as it can be hard to motivate yourself for any tournament after you just won the biggest yet. And just because the roster on paper should have been an upgrade doesn't mean the team is unbeatable, Secret, OG and Liquid were all strong teams that emerged from the post TI5 shuffle, none of them were at TI5 so it's kinda hard to compare different tourneys to each other imo. Yes both Artour and SumaiL are often times greedy and some of their hero pool overlap, but both of them are also among the best players the scene has to offer in terms of raw talent and skill and it's really more of a luxury problem than an actual problem to have them both on the same team.
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I have to judge PPD harshly for going to management so early. It made a lot of sense, but I don't see what would have stopped him from going to that position after another year or two of dominating the dota scene.
I don't think cr1t can bring the team together in the same way that fear-ppd-universe did. There's an absolute shitton of raw talent in every one of EG's team members, but I fear for lack of coordination, order, and synergy. It will absolutely not be the same style of team that we saw in years previous, if it is successful.
I give a 35% chance of PPD negotiating his way back into the prodota scene if this team falls apart. He is a very cautious and thoughtful individual, enough to make the economically questionable choice he has made- a choice of security over average potential gain given his skills. Yet it makes sense: PPD only gambles when he has to.
People who still think PPD is an ass are ignoring that he has never been meaner than he's had to been while still putting the context of the situation in plain terms. It was incredibly unlikely that pain would beat EG; PPD treated aui well by kicking him early even though it cost him rep, etc. Yes, that "cancerous" comment too was an attempt to explain why he'd done it, although flawed and rushed.
It's possible that he saw the demise of his own skill or primacy in one way or another. He had some good games in the last few series of TI6 and more bad ones. He is, ultimately, a personally conservative person. Perhaps he feared staying too long and ruining his chances of a future career in esports? Impossible to say. As for the future of EG.... good luck to cr1t, and FUCK all you people who say "oh EG is perfectly nice now that PPD is gone," he was one hell of a salty boy and he did not hesitate to say the emperor had no clothes
/rant end
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PPD wanted to take a year off, and he works in a organization that was willing to let him take a year break from his job to do something different. I don't blame him, I am jealous
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On September 19 2016 02:53 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2016 01:20 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 17 2016 07:31 hariooo wrote:On September 17 2016 06:13 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 17 2016 05:22 hariooo wrote:On September 17 2016 04:40 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 17 2016 03:12 hariooo wrote:On September 17 2016 02:07 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 17 2016 02:03 hariooo wrote:On September 16 2016 20:23 Dracolich70 wrote:
[quote]There is no spin, but a comparison in play. It was meant to be an upgrade, but how can you ever say it was?
Most people agree that it was very problematic.
Because you seem to be making the fundamental mistake of confusing relative placements with team improvement. No, I watch games, and I am very good at it. I believe your argument rested on placements, as proof things worked, despite the decline in result, and more importantly in how the interaction between RTZ and Sumail worked out, which never was great, and the end result was also RTZ leaving - again. No, you cited EG's performance as evidence that RTZ + Sumail didn't work out, but since their team placement was pretty strong it doesn't support your point at all. It's also not evidence that RTZ+Sumail works but burden is on you since you made the claim in the first place. But yeah I'm sure you're very good at watching games. Top dota watcher EU. I said that it didn't work optimally. I also said this, "As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams.". So not sure about the team placement was my point, but they did decline. You just said, "Because you seem to be making the fundamental mistake of confusing relative placements with team improvement.", seem to relate to you, yes, considering you are using results, as evidence of working. Yeah, I am good. " It's also not evidence that RTZ+Sumail works but burden is on you since you made the claim in the first place.". So since this is where you argued, essentially you said nothing at all. You are brilliant. Them getting 3rd at Frankfurt could just as well mean that although the team got better, OG/Secret improved even more, do you understand? And when you say their RTZ+Sumail isn't good because they didn't get 1st place as often, you're not realizing that you've actually not proven anything. You've failed to isolate RTZ+Sumail as the cause for the performance. You could just as well say Aui is a better 4 than Fear by that logic, which would be equally pointless. Your argument seems to be that variable X changed and results went down therefore X was the root cause of the performance. Unfortunately, EG from TI5 to Frankfurt major had variables A, B, C, ..., Z all modified. So to pin it on RTZ+Sumail you need to have arguments specific to that. You simply haven't done so or even tried. I understand that you can't make up your mind who says what, and more busy trying to have a discussion with yourself, ultimately wasting everyones time. "And when you say their RTZ+Sumail isn't good". Not sure I said that, because I am pretty sure I didn't say that. It's pretty clear that you're saying EG got worse with the return of RTZ and implied that the RTZ+Sumail combination was what caused it. That you can't actually defend the point with anything resembling an argument outside of being salty at me is enough though. I am sure you can see there is a difference between, "RTZ+Sumail isn't good" and "it got worse.". Well, it should. And now you try to reconstruct something that has been pointed out, and yet you try to figure out what was actually said, when it is black on white. It did. It was meant as an upgrade, and wasn't. On paper it should have been an upgrade, but it never worked optimally. But I have written this many times, and you misquote me on end.When this becomes you wanting me to indulge in your own narrative, that you project onto me, it is no longer me you are trying to discuss with, but some idea in your head. When you changing your narrative, to amend your faults, and still get it wrong, it becomes an endless stream of trying to point out your glaring errors that distort a conversation from the get go, only to continue, and continue from an idea I am at fault here. If you watch games like you read, I am not surprised you see nothing. I have defended my point even before you entered. No one cares to pursuade you to see what you can't see, and start off by saying it isn't true, only to end, you don't know either way. Repeating something over and over and never supporting it with few real arguments. "I'm really good at watching games" isn't saying anything. And if you're having a hard time writing maybe stick to shorter English sentences? And here I thought it was you, that kept on making the reading and quoting mistakes, because that is what evidence shows...
It is all well, I didn't just say, "I am really good at watching games", isn't it.
When you stumble in your shoelaces 7 times, while trying to have a conversation, where you are stuck with no clue anyway, you are not really worth the effort of explaining something, that has been explained. Sorry.
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one more ego
one less championship
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On September 20 2016 10:30 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2016 02:53 hariooo wrote:On September 18 2016 01:20 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 17 2016 07:31 hariooo wrote:On September 17 2016 06:13 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 17 2016 05:22 hariooo wrote:On September 17 2016 04:40 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 17 2016 03:12 hariooo wrote:On September 17 2016 02:07 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 17 2016 02:03 hariooo wrote:
[quote]
Because you seem to be making the fundamental mistake of confusing relative placements with team improvement. No, I watch games, and I am very good at it. I believe your argument rested on placements, as proof things worked, despite the decline in result, and more importantly in how the interaction between RTZ and Sumail worked out, which never was great, and the end result was also RTZ leaving - again. No, you cited EG's performance as evidence that RTZ + Sumail didn't work out, but since their team placement was pretty strong it doesn't support your point at all. It's also not evidence that RTZ+Sumail works but burden is on you since you made the claim in the first place. But yeah I'm sure you're very good at watching games. Top dota watcher EU. I said that it didn't work optimally. I also said this, "As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams.". So not sure about the team placement was my point, but they did decline. You just said, "Because you seem to be making the fundamental mistake of confusing relative placements with team improvement.", seem to relate to you, yes, considering you are using results, as evidence of working. Yeah, I am good. " It's also not evidence that RTZ+Sumail works but burden is on you since you made the claim in the first place.". So since this is where you argued, essentially you said nothing at all. You are brilliant. Them getting 3rd at Frankfurt could just as well mean that although the team got better, OG/Secret improved even more, do you understand? And when you say their RTZ+Sumail isn't good because they didn't get 1st place as often, you're not realizing that you've actually not proven anything. You've failed to isolate RTZ+Sumail as the cause for the performance. You could just as well say Aui is a better 4 than Fear by that logic, which would be equally pointless. Your argument seems to be that variable X changed and results went down therefore X was the root cause of the performance. Unfortunately, EG from TI5 to Frankfurt major had variables A, B, C, ..., Z all modified. So to pin it on RTZ+Sumail you need to have arguments specific to that. You simply haven't done so or even tried. I understand that you can't make up your mind who says what, and more busy trying to have a discussion with yourself, ultimately wasting everyones time. "And when you say their RTZ+Sumail isn't good". Not sure I said that, because I am pretty sure I didn't say that. It's pretty clear that you're saying EG got worse with the return of RTZ and implied that the RTZ+Sumail combination was what caused it. That you can't actually defend the point with anything resembling an argument outside of being salty at me is enough though. I am sure you can see there is a difference between, "RTZ+Sumail isn't good" and "it got worse.". Well, it should. And now you try to reconstruct something that has been pointed out, and yet you try to figure out what was actually said, when it is black on white. It did. It was meant as an upgrade, and wasn't. On paper it should have been an upgrade, but it never worked optimally. But I have written this many times, and you misquote me on end.When this becomes you wanting me to indulge in your own narrative, that you project onto me, it is no longer me you are trying to discuss with, but some idea in your head. When you changing your narrative, to amend your faults, and still get it wrong, it becomes an endless stream of trying to point out your glaring errors that distort a conversation from the get go, only to continue, and continue from an idea I am at fault here. If you watch games like you read, I am not surprised you see nothing. I have defended my point even before you entered. No one cares to pursuade you to see what you can't see, and start off by saying it isn't true, only to end, you don't know either way. Repeating something over and over and never supporting it with few real arguments. "I'm really good at watching games" isn't saying anything. And if you're having a hard time writing maybe stick to shorter English sentences? And here I thought it was you, that kept on making the reading and quoting mistakes, because that is what evidence shows... It is all well, I didn't just say, "I am really good at watching games", isn't it. When you stumble in your shoelaces 7 times, while trying to have a conversation, where you are stuck with no clue anyway, you are not really worth the effort of explaining something, that has been explained. Sorry.
Someone should have told you commas are not your friend. Your posts are getting more non sequitur by the post. Don't worry about it though I'm really good at making forum posts so don't feel too bad.
On to a real topic though, the PPD move is pretty strange. He almost certainly didn't want to play with Artour again which probably affected his decision but it's really hard to say which direction the cause and effect went. Maybe he just lost the fire since he's already reached the top and he wouldn't have Fear anymore as a counterbalance?
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On September 16 2016 22:17 Shergal wrote:
i don't feel like you need a "leader" to play a coherent dota game. does anyone here really think fy is a leader? yet vg with both black and hao were the best team in the world for a while and pretty much won everything except for one grand final series. misery doesn't even like captaining yet DC were easily the best team at TI outside of wings and had the most clear, identifiable gameplan of the bunch
What makes you say fy is not a leader?
Also, just because you don't like doing something doesn't mean you're not fucking amazing at it (Misery).
Can't really agree on DC "easily" being the best team outside of Wings either.
-Edit-
On September 20 2016 11:19 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 10:30 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 19 2016 02:53 hariooo wrote:On September 18 2016 01:20 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 17 2016 07:31 hariooo wrote:On September 17 2016 06:13 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 17 2016 05:22 hariooo wrote:On September 17 2016 04:40 Dracolich70 wrote:On September 17 2016 03:12 hariooo wrote:On September 17 2016 02:07 Dracolich70 wrote:
[quote]No, I watch games, and I am very good at it. I believe your argument rested on placements, as proof things worked, despite the decline in result, and more importantly in how the interaction between RTZ and Sumail worked out, which never was great, and the end result was also RTZ leaving - again.
No, you cited EG's performance as evidence that RTZ + Sumail didn't work out, but since their team placement was pretty strong it doesn't support your point at all. It's also not evidence that RTZ+Sumail works but burden is on you since you made the claim in the first place. But yeah I'm sure you're very good at watching games. Top dota watcher EU. I said that it didn't work optimally. I also said this, "As said, EG pulled very consistent results stil, albeit life and death 2-1s against the wall more often than not, in a field where they still lived on having the same core longer than other teams.". So not sure about the team placement was my point, but they did decline. You just said, "Because you seem to be making the fundamental mistake of confusing relative placements with team improvement.", seem to relate to you, yes, considering you are using results, as evidence of working. Yeah, I am good. " It's also not evidence that RTZ+Sumail works but burden is on you since you made the claim in the first place.". So since this is where you argued, essentially you said nothing at all. You are brilliant. Them getting 3rd at Frankfurt could just as well mean that although the team got better, OG/Secret improved even more, do you understand? And when you say their RTZ+Sumail isn't good because they didn't get 1st place as often, you're not realizing that you've actually not proven anything. You've failed to isolate RTZ+Sumail as the cause for the performance. You could just as well say Aui is a better 4 than Fear by that logic, which would be equally pointless. Your argument seems to be that variable X changed and results went down therefore X was the root cause of the performance. Unfortunately, EG from TI5 to Frankfurt major had variables A, B, C, ..., Z all modified. So to pin it on RTZ+Sumail you need to have arguments specific to that. You simply haven't done so or even tried. I understand that you can't make up your mind who says what, and more busy trying to have a discussion with yourself, ultimately wasting everyones time. "And when you say their RTZ+Sumail isn't good". Not sure I said that, because I am pretty sure I didn't say that. It's pretty clear that you're saying EG got worse with the return of RTZ and implied that the RTZ+Sumail combination was what caused it. That you can't actually defend the point with anything resembling an argument outside of being salty at me is enough though. I am sure you can see there is a difference between, "RTZ+Sumail isn't good" and "it got worse.". Well, it should. And now you try to reconstruct something that has been pointed out, and yet you try to figure out what was actually said, when it is black on white. It did. It was meant as an upgrade, and wasn't. On paper it should have been an upgrade, but it never worked optimally. But I have written this many times, and you misquote me on end.When this becomes you wanting me to indulge in your own narrative, that you project onto me, it is no longer me you are trying to discuss with, but some idea in your head. When you changing your narrative, to amend your faults, and still get it wrong, it becomes an endless stream of trying to point out your glaring errors that distort a conversation from the get go, only to continue, and continue from an idea I am at fault here. If you watch games like you read, I am not surprised you see nothing. I have defended my point even before you entered. No one cares to pursuade you to see what you can't see, and start off by saying it isn't true, only to end, you don't know either way. Repeating something over and over and never supporting it with few real arguments. "I'm really good at watching games" isn't saying anything. And if you're having a hard time writing maybe stick to shorter English sentences? And here I thought it was you, that kept on making the reading and quoting mistakes, because that is what evidence shows... It is all well, I didn't just say, "I am really good at watching games", isn't it. When you stumble in your shoelaces 7 times, while trying to have a conversation, where you are stuck with no clue anyway, you are not really worth the effort of explaining something, that has been explained. Sorry. Someone should have told you commas are not your friend. Your posts are getting more non sequitur by the post. Don't worry about it though I'm really good at making forum posts so don't feel too bad. On to a real topic though, the PPD move is pretty strange. He almost certainly didn't want to play with Artour again which probably affected his decision but it's really hard to say which direction the cause and effect went. Maybe he just lost the fire since he's already reached the top and he wouldn't have Fear anymore as a counterbalance?
You're both pretty amazing at misinterpreting each other. Or maybe you just like not trying to understand each other.
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Was it an unfounded rumor that the EG players essentially voted to kick PPD?
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On September 20 2016 14:23 SupLilSon wrote:
Was it an unfounded rumor that the EG players essentially voted to kick PPD?
Not completely unfounded, but certainly not confirmed. I believe both RTZ and PPD had made statements along the lines of not liking to work with each other/burning bridges somewhat or something, so if PPD had wanted to keep playing then presumably it came down to a vote and RTZ won. Impossible to know for sure without actual evidence though.
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On September 20 2016 14:23 SupLilSon wrote:
Was it an unfounded rumor that the EG players essentially voted to kick PPD?
Peters brother Alex denied such rumors on reddit iirc, despite ppd and arteezy not getting along in game they were somewhat friends outside of the game, as that was one of the main reasons he brought him back after TI5. I don't think there is any bad blood between the two and I doubt ppd got voted off as I don't think he would remain silent, plus he hangs out a lot with the new team which would be kinda weird if there was mutiny against him imo.
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Choosing to play with each other and not PPD is essentially the same as voting him out though.
It's one of those situations where there are many possible viable explanations.
PPD is playing WESG so clearly he's not done being a player.
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PPD wasn't a terrible player, but the new position 5 they have is obviously better at it. PPD was really... I mean off the top of my head, I can't remember anything of note that he did in-game, at all. At any given point. Maybe a decent CM or AA ulti here and there? If they can get the draft down without PPD, then there should be a net gain in their ability to compete... if it hadn't been for Fear's departure.
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On September 21 2016 00:17 a_flayer wrote:
PPD wasn't a terrible player, but the new position 5 they have is obviously better at it. PPD was really... I mean off the top of my head, I can't remember anything of note that he did in-game, at all. At any given point. Maybe a decent CM or AA ulti here and there? If they can get the draft down without PPD, then there should be a net gain in their ability to compete... if it hadn't been for Fear's departure.
He had a good Earthshaker, and was generally strong on the defensive supports. And Tree, of course.
Mechanically he might not have been the best player around, but he was absolutely famous for being the poorest player in the game and still getting shit done. Which, given EG's extremely greedy play style, is really what the team needed form their 5.
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EPT
