|
|
On March 09 2012 07:32 Tryhat wrote:There's something that has been confusing me, and that is creep pulling. Now, I'm not a noob (been playing dota for a long time), but creep pulling is something I don't understand. I have two examples: 1) I'm solo bot (radiant) with Silencer. Completely owning up Jakiro + Viper, even driving both home to heal and almost scoring a double kill. Then a jungler (that doesn't need to pull to farm) decides to creep pull onto the lane, then stacking and pulling etc. What this accomplished: a) Lost a few lasthits to my tower (maybe one or two by mistake, but also many simply because the tower outdamages me and two creeps might go down at the same time to tower + creeps and stuff like that). I know a lot of tricks to get lasthits even when the tower outdamages you, but sometimes it's impossible. b) The wave gets pushed all the way to the enemy tower, which is both risky and makes me lose several waves of enemy creeps to denies they could make behind their tower. c) Our tower was lost to creeps. All in all: Tower lost and I could lasthit at a pace of about 30% of my normal lasthitting tempo. Yeah, creep pulling is so great... 2) Dual lane (radiant) as Spectre with a babysitting CM. Alchemist wants to make it a trilane, so he pulls creeps aaaaaall the time. Results: The wave is pushed back, then forward, then back, then forward. I lost my lasthitting tempo to my tower, to denies close to their tower, and because it simply got chaotic. I don't want the wave close to their tower, and I don't wanna compete with towers for lasthits, so why would I want anyone to creep pull? Can someone explain? edit: Maybe I should start to ward off our own creep camps in the future  That sure would get the russians pinging like mad.
If the creeps are stacked before pulling, the opposing team loses a full wave of creeps without pushing the lane to their tower. You gain a wave more of exp than the other team, that should outweigh your missed last hits.
|
On March 09 2012 07:32 Tryhat wrote:There's something that has been confusing me, and that is creep pulling. Now, I'm not a noob (been playing dota for a long time), but creep pulling is something I don't understand. I have two examples: 1) I'm solo bot (radiant) with Silencer. Completely owning up Jakiro + Viper, even driving both home to heal and almost scoring a double kill. Then a jungler (that doesn't need to pull to farm) decides to creep pull onto the lane, then stacking and pulling etc. What this accomplished: a) Lost a few lasthits to my tower (maybe one or two by mistake, but also many simply because the tower outdamages me and two creeps might go down at the same time to tower + creeps and stuff like that). I know a lot of tricks to get lasthits even when the tower outdamages you, but sometimes it's impossible. b) The wave gets pushed all the way to the enemy tower, which is both risky and makes me lose several waves of enemy creeps to denies they could make behind their tower. c) Our tower was lost to creeps. All in all: Tower lost and I could lasthit at a pace of about 30% of my normal lasthitting tempo. Yeah, creep pulling is so great... 2) Dual lane (radiant) as Spectre with a babysitting CM. Alchemist wants to make it a trilane, so he pulls creeps aaaaaall the time. Results: The wave is pushed back, then forward, then back, then forward. I lost my lasthitting tempo to my tower, to denies close to their tower, and because it simply got chaotic. I don't want the wave close to their tower, and I don't wanna compete with towers for lasthits, so why would I want anyone to creep pull? Can someone explain? edit: Maybe I should start to ward off our own creep camps in the future That sure would get the russians pinging like mad.
Pulling creep accomplishes several things, but you also have to keep in mind the consequences it might have.¨
(Assuming the camp is stacked so that you can clear your own wave, maybe even several times.)
1. It denies the creepwave entirely, your opponents get 0 xp for your creeps if a junglecreep gets the last hit, not to mention they often wont even make it there to contest it.
2. It let's support heroes get a little bit of farm, where they would often get none. Conversely the carry will often get some solo xp which is also nice.
3. It makes sure your lane is kept back at the tower, making you less likely to get ganked or die in general.
Stacking the camp is especially important because as you mentioned, the lane will get pushed like crazy if you don't. Your farming player has to be good at lasthitting within tower range, and you also have to keep in mind how well your opponents can push the tower. Pubs are usually unaware of these things, which results in wacky pulling antics.
|
On March 09 2012 07:52 Alur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 07:32 Tryhat wrote:There's something that has been confusing me, and that is creep pulling. Now, I'm not a noob (been playing dota for a long time), but creep pulling is something I don't understand. I have two examples: 1) I'm solo bot (radiant) with Silencer. Completely owning up Jakiro + Viper, even driving both home to heal and almost scoring a double kill. Then a jungler (that doesn't need to pull to farm) decides to creep pull onto the lane, then stacking and pulling etc. What this accomplished: a) Lost a few lasthits to my tower (maybe one or two by mistake, but also many simply because the tower outdamages me and two creeps might go down at the same time to tower + creeps and stuff like that). I know a lot of tricks to get lasthits even when the tower outdamages you, but sometimes it's impossible. b) The wave gets pushed all the way to the enemy tower, which is both risky and makes me lose several waves of enemy creeps to denies they could make behind their tower. c) Our tower was lost to creeps. All in all: Tower lost and I could lasthit at a pace of about 30% of my normal lasthitting tempo. Yeah, creep pulling is so great... 2) Dual lane (radiant) as Spectre with a babysitting CM. Alchemist wants to make it a trilane, so he pulls creeps aaaaaall the time. Results: The wave is pushed back, then forward, then back, then forward. I lost my lasthitting tempo to my tower, to denies close to their tower, and because it simply got chaotic. I don't want the wave close to their tower, and I don't wanna compete with towers for lasthits, so why would I want anyone to creep pull? Can someone explain? edit: Maybe I should start to ward off our own creep camps in the future That sure would get the russians pinging like mad. Pulling creep accomplishes several things, but you also have to keep in mind the consequences it might have.¨ (Assuming the camp is stacked so that you can clear your own wave, maybe even several times.) 1. It denies the creepwave entirely, your opponents get 0 xp for your creeps if a junglecreep gets the last hit, not to mention they often wont even make it there to contest it. 2. It let's support heroes get a little bit of farm, where they would often get none. Conversely the carry will often get some solo xp which is also nice. 3. It makes sure your lane is kept back at the tower, making you less likely to get ganked or die in general. Stacking the camp is especially important because as you mentioned, the lane will get pushed like crazy if you don't. Your farming player has to be good at lasthitting within tower range, and you also have to keep in mind how well your opponents can push the tower. Pubs are usually unaware of these things, which results in wacky pulling antics.
1. Yeah, obviously. This is a little too basic. My problem was that making the carry (me) lose 70% of my lasthits can't possibly be better than denying a wave here and there to the enemy heroes. Even if I get more used to the scenario and improve my lasthitting in the ensuing chaos, I will still not do remotely as well as I did when the waves clashed in the same place and I could only focus on lasthitting.
2. Sure. I understand that, too, but there must be a better way than completely fucking up the lane. Also, when they are pulling and getting gold/xp from it they aren't there to defend the carry. So the carry must go back to the tower even before the wave is pushed back, losing even more lasthits.
3. Hmmm. This usually happens when people stack & pull (or double pull with tango/qb): Our wave wiped. Their wave wiped by tower (while I'm trying to lasthit and losing some hp tanking one hit from each creep I want to lasthit, while the tower also loses hp from the rest of the hits). Then the next waves clash somewhere further up the lane, closer to the enemy tower, or at least where they were before since both our and the enemy wave is cleared and nothing really changed. But thinking about it now, I guess it should pull the lane back a bit since it's the long lane after all. Maybe I'm misremembering.
A few questions: Is it ever worth it to pull non-stacked creep camps if you're NOT pushing? I swear I see it from time to time in professional games. Can I curse at russians for pulling non-stacked creeps and be in the right?
Also, should I be trying to pull the uncontested wave behind my tower somehow instead of letting the tower tank the wave?
Thanks for the answers, by the way.
|
1. Get better at last-hitting if you can only get 30% in tower range. You should be at like 70%+ and on top of that you are getting a massive XP advantage over the opposing lane, which is way more important than any amount of gold you could get. 10 creeps in the first 5 mins on a carry vs 2 levels of xp on 2 heroes if you properly pull and defend the pull? Once you execute a good pull, your lane control lets you no longer need to pull, as (generally) you can just kill enemy heroes if they come in the lane.
2. Your lane's control blows if you're in a bad position when your mate pulls. Enemy creeps should never take attacks from your tower when the creeps are battling. Your tower should only hit creeps when your wave has been pulled to jungle. Your creeps should never be pushing.
3. If your wave doesn't wipe, then your creeps will push the lane when they come back. Your supports need to only pull when they know the neutrals will wipe the creep wave. If you triple stack that camp before pulling, it pretty much ensures that your creep waves can be denied for several minutes at a time (especially if you have a centaur or crit wolf), and the enemy lane can't contest it very well because if they aggro 9 neutrals, you can destroy them.
|
On March 09 2012 06:58 Alur wrote:
Nothing to see here, accidental butting pressing.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DeFtA.gif)
User was warned for this post
|
with silencer you should never miss a last hit in tower range... may be 1 per 2 waves is acceptable lmao... his dmg scale early for last hit is wayyyy too good not counting that fact that he has an orb.
spectre i often start off with quelling shield tango, this help me static farm quite easily as i could deny/farm 100% of the creeps without any trouble. you will be a bit squishy early on but if your lane mate pull, you should never be in trouble of taking harass dmg.
|
On March 09 2012 08:43 scorch- wrote:
1. Get better at last-hitting if you can only get 30% in tower range. You should be at like 70%+ and on top of that you are getting a massive XP advantage over the opposing lane, which is way more important than any amount of gold you could get. 10 creeps in the first 5 mins on a carry vs 2 levels of xp on 2 heroes if you properly pull and defend the pull? Once you execute a good pull, your lane control lets you no longer need to pull, as (generally) you can just kill enemy heroes if they come in the lane.
2. Your lane's control blows if you're in a bad position when your mate pulls. Enemy creeps should never take attacks from your tower when the creeps are battling. Your tower should only hit creeps when your wave has been pulled to jungle. Your creeps should never be pushing.
3. If your wave doesn't wipe, then your creeps will push the lane when they come back. Your supports need to only pull when they know the neutrals will wipe the creep wave. If you triple stack that camp before pulling, it pretty much ensures that your creep waves can be denied for several minutes at a time (especially if you have a centaur or crit wolf), and the enemy lane can't contest it very well because if they aggro 9 neutrals, you can destroy them.
Thanks for attempt at answer but you didn't actually read/understand my questions. 
1. I never said I get 30% in tower range. I said that's what I get in total when the creeps are constantly pulled and my lane pushes to their tower and they can deny creeps BEHIND their tower. No matter how good I am lasthitting, I can't dive their tower to get them. 70% in tower range is still bad when I can get 90-100% in lane.
2. Well, that's what happens when someone pulls. I questioned the cleverness of pulling when the enemy creeps will walk into our tower if we do. And why did you tell me I should get better at lasthit at tower if they should never be there anyway?
3. Ok. Well it's not really "my support" but random pub junglers. I never tell my support to pull since I hate it and can easily get 90%+ lasthits in a good static lane with a competent babysitter.
On March 09 2012 09:07 NB wrote:
with silencer you should never miss a last hit in tower range... may be 1 per 2 waves is acceptable lmao... his dmg scale early for last hit is wayyyy too good not counting that fact that he has an orb.
spectre i often start off with quelling shield tango, this help me static farm quite easily as i could deny/farm 100% of the creeps without any trouble. you will be a bit squishy early on but if your lane mate pull, you should never be in trouble of taking harass dmg.
Well, as I said, the biggest problem isn't that but that the tower also goes down, I take damage from creeps, and then our wave will push toward their tower letting them deny/lasthit safely.
I have no problem lasthitting in general, and especially not with Spectre, so that's not really the problem here. It's just that creep pulling fucks everything up, moving the lane to and fro. I'd rather have the lane static close to my tower, which is the default position in the long/easy lane. Why pull and fuck everything up? Blocking the first wave is also annoying when people do, cause that will cause the waves to clash in tower range.
|
Will trade dota2 beta for D3 beta
|
I really want to see Bane in competitive-pro matches, such a cool hero.
|
On March 09 2012 09:35 Tryhat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 08:43 scorch- wrote:
1. Get better at last-hitting if you can only get 30% in tower range. You should be at like 70%+ and on top of that you are getting a massive XP advantage over the opposing lane, which is way more important than any amount of gold you could get. 10 creeps in the first 5 mins on a carry vs 2 levels of xp on 2 heroes if you properly pull and defend the pull? Once you execute a good pull, your lane control lets you no longer need to pull, as (generally) you can just kill enemy heroes if they come in the lane.
2. Your lane's control blows if you're in a bad position when your mate pulls. Enemy creeps should never take attacks from your tower when the creeps are battling. Your tower should only hit creeps when your wave has been pulled to jungle. Your creeps should never be pushing.
3. If your wave doesn't wipe, then your creeps will push the lane when they come back. Your supports need to only pull when they know the neutrals will wipe the creep wave. If you triple stack that camp before pulling, it pretty much ensures that your creep waves can be denied for several minutes at a time (especially if you have a centaur or crit wolf), and the enemy lane can't contest it very well because if they aggro 9 neutrals, you can destroy them. Thanks for attempt at answer but you didn't actually read/understand my questions. 1. I never said I get 30% in tower range. I said that's what I get in total when the creeps are constantly pulled and my lane pushes to their tower and they can deny creeps BEHIND their tower. No matter how good I am lasthitting, I can't dive their tower to get them. 70% in tower range is still bad when I can get 90-100% in lane. 2. Well, that's what happens when someone pulls. I questioned the cleverness of pulling when the enemy creeps will walk into our tower if we do. And why did you tell me I should get better at lasthit at tower if they should never be there anyway? 3. Ok. Well it's not really "my support" but random pub junglers. I never tell my support to pull since I hate it and can easily get 90%+ lasthits in a good static lane with a competent babysitter. Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 09:07 NB wrote:
with silencer you should never miss a last hit in tower range... may be 1 per 2 waves is acceptable lmao... his dmg scale early for last hit is wayyyy too good not counting that fact that he has an orb.
spectre i often start off with quelling shield tango, this help me static farm quite easily as i could deny/farm 100% of the creeps without any trouble. you will be a bit squishy early on but if your lane mate pull, you should never be in trouble of taking harass dmg. Well, as I said, the biggest problem isn't that but that the tower also goes down, I take damage from creeps, and then our wave will push toward their tower letting them deny/lasthit safely. I have no problem lasthitting in general, and especially not with Spectre, so that's not really the problem here. It's just that creep pulling fucks everything up, moving the lane to and fro. I'd rather have the lane static close to my tower, which is the default position in the long/easy lane. Why pull and fuck everything up? Blocking the first wave is also annoying when people do, cause that will cause the waves to clash in tower range.
By denying a whole creep wave, you give the other team 0 XP and 0 gold. If you're losing a couple lasthits due to the tower, that's fine since they aren't getting a single one. In order to get the same results in lane, you'd have to deny all of your own creeps as well as get most of the last hits, which is basically impossible.
|
If camps are stacked or if your support/jungler is double pulling, creep pulling should never really fuck up the lane if it's done properly. done right, creep pulling will keep the waves in front or under your own tower. chances are, the guy creep pulling for you isn't stacking before he pulls or he's autoattacking the neutrals so the neutral camps don't deny enough creep.
|
Excuse me for asking something that might seem a bit silly to some but what's happening to valves dota servers atm? cant seem to find a match 10 hours ago and i still seem to be have the same problem now. Is it an update incoming?
|
On March 09 2012 09:35 Tryhat wrote:
Well, as I said, the biggest problem isn't that but that the tower also goes down, I take damage from creeps, and then our wave will push toward their tower letting them deny/lasthit safely.
I have no problem lasthitting in general, and especially not with Spectre, so that's not really the problem here. It's just that creep pulling fucks everything up, moving the lane to and fro. I'd rather have the lane static close to my tower, which is the default position in the long/easy lane. Why pull and fuck everything up? Blocking the first wave is also annoying when people do, cause that will cause the waves to clash in tower range.
Pull the incoming wave all the way back to your next creepwave in between the towers that are coming up if you or the tower are taking too much damage from it.
Your creepwave should also rarely if never be in their tower if the person pulling has actually stacked. Maybe they pulled without stacking and that's why it's in the other team's tower so often? I dunno, if it's stacked or he double pulls with a tango I don't understand how your creeps could be in their tower for such a long time like that.
|
you also shouldnt lose the tower if you do it correctly: pull the enemy creeps deep into your lane between tier 1 and tier 2. That way it will take extremely long for your tower to go down. Worst case if the tower go down, you will be lv 6-7 while the 2 on your lane are 3-4 and your puller should be 5. That is HUGE stepping into mid game as you have 1 extra ulti while enemy is low on level.
In the end there are more pros than cons from creep pulling if its done right.
Watch CLG vs Mouz final you can see Beast master (radiant) solo top vs tri lane and he was lv 1 5 mins into the game while the other side id 3-4-3 respectively.
|
On March 09 2012 10:04 dragonborn wrote:
I really want to see Bane in competitive-pro matches, such a cool hero.
and dreams come true with new patch.
|
I love batrider... I'm planning on playing like a marathon of games as him after this patch hits and firefly's dot ticks get fixed.
Edit :
Although 5 bans may hurt some teams much more than others.
|
fixed basher stack...holy shit finally
|
United States47024 Posts
On March 09 2012 10:12 Ryuu314 wrote:
If camps are stacked or if your support/jungler is double pulling, creep pulling should never really fuck up the lane if it's done properly. done right, creep pulling will keep the waves in front or under your own tower. chances are, the guy creep pulling for you isn't stacking before he pulls or he's autoattacking the neutrals so the neutral camps don't deny enough creep.
Pretty much this.
Your problem isn't with creep pulling in general. Your problem is with pub junglers/supports doing single-pulls when they should be stacking/doing double pulls to deny all the creeps.
Creep pulling if done correctly should not fuck up your ability to control the lane.
|
http://store.steampowered.com/news/7489/
+ Show Spoiler +GAMEPLAY
- Enabled Bane in Captain's Mode.
- Bane: Fixed the attack timing on when Nightmare gets transfered.
- Bane: Fixed Enfeeble working on Roshan
- Bane: Fixed being unable to attack allied Nightmared heroes to transfer the debuff.
- Bane: Fixed Nightmare being able to transfer to towers and wards.
- Batrider: Fixed being unable to easily pull units over cliffs with Flaming Lasso.
- Batrider: Fixed timing of Firefly damage ticks.
- Batrider: Fixed rounding error with Firefly damage ticks.
- Bloodseeker: Fixed Rupture hurting cycloned units.
- Chen: Fixed Holy Persuation interrupting allied channeling spells on cast (rather than upon tping).
- Death Prophet: Fixed Exorcism hitting an invisible hero if the hero was hit before.
- Death Prophet: Fixed Silence not affecting basic units.
- Dragon Knight: Fixed Elder Form's Corrosive Breath and Frost Breath working with DK illusions.
- Faceless Void: Fixed Courier interaction with Chronosphere
- Jakiro: Macropyre now does the correct amount of damage with a Scepter.
- Jakiro: Fixed Macropyre not hurting siege units.
- Omniknight: Fixed Repel canceling Ursa's Overpower.
- Outworld Destroyer: Fixed Astral Imprisonment being able to cause you to lose mana regeneration.
- Pugna: Fixed Netherward mana degen not showing the proper numbers for players.
- Spirit Breaker: Fixed Netherstrike vs cycloned units.
- Tinker: Fixed Rearm refreshing level 2 and 3 of Necronomicon.
- Ursa: Fixed Fury Swipes incrementing when the attack missed.
- Vengeful Spirit: Fixed Wave of Terror hp loss not properly functioning on magic immune units.
- Warlock: Fixed Golem being considered a creep for some spells like Paralyzing Casks.
- Attributes can no longer fall below 1.
- Fixed some issues with negative mana regeneration.
- Fixed Basher stacking with Spiritbreaker/Slardar/Faceless Void's bashes.
- Fixed Armlet not draining life while you are magic immune.
- Fixed couriers not being able to use wards.
- Fixed temporary trees (like Sprout) not respecting the pause.
UI
- Changed Empowering Haste passive legacy key to G to avoid stomping H (halt).
- Captain's Mode now has 5 bans once again.
- Added countdown when unpausing the game.
- The spectator graph events now get correctly cleared when rewinding in a demo.
- The tooltip for Doom now correctly updates when Doombringer has a Scepter.
- Inventory keys are now hidden while spectating.
- The combat log now works while spectating and in replays.
- Fixed a bug where the minimap was unclickable after spectating a game in player perspective mode.
VISUALS
- Dragon Knight plays a range-enabled effect when Dragon Tail is cast while in dragon form.
- Lifestealer now has his own variation on the lifesteal effect rather than using the generic one.
- Updated Lifestealer's Open Wounds and Infest effects for clarity.
- Updated Bloodseeker's Rupture effect (added blood trail so it's more obvious).
- Added Team Only Marker for Kunkka's Ship
- Fix to unit rings sometimes getting offset from the unit at low framerate/high replay playback speeds
- Perf and visual tweaks to Alchemist's Acid Spray
- Made Pudge's hook conform to terrain for more accurate visual read
- Tinker Rockets now visually show duds when no enemy units are available
- Fixed buildings visually popping back to earlier state when being damaged repeatedly.
- Optimized tree destruction effects and fixed crash in certain situations when many were destroyed simultaneously
- Fixed Split Earth drawing in FoW in some situtaions (Roshan)
AUDIO
- Updated Rupture effect.
- Announcer now says "Single Draft" when starting single draft mode.
- First Blood lines now play mapwide.
-Added rival taunts and misc. lines to Razor, Zeus, Tiny and Tidehunter to fill out basic voice set.
BOTS
- Bot difficulty now defaults to Normal.
- Re-added ability for bots to team-roam-and-gank enemy heroes during the latter part of games.
- dota_bot_dump_state can now be run in non-cheat-enabled games.
- Fixed cases where Juggernaut would use Blade Fury and Razor would use Plasma Field when there weren't enough creeps nearby.
- Added Passive bot difficulty level, in which they won't do anything but lane.
- Loosened the time-to-arrive constraints for deciding to defending a lane (should improve base defense).
Also this is important :
We’re changing the way we release updates once more and will be updating the Test Build on Wednesdays. It will then be promoted to the Dota 2 release build the next day if no major issues are found.
|
- Tinker: Fixed Rearm refreshing level 2 and 3 of Necronomicon.
That must make him the strongest pusher ingame with BoT and Necronomicon. Those small demons fucking rapes, i wanna se a pro go that build. Also Necronomicon gives really nice stats
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
