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I may get smacked around for asking this, but it's a question that's been nagging me ever since I started puttering around in LoL. So here goes!
The opening threads in this section make it clear that there's a huge difference between League of Legends and Defense of the Ancients 2. I must admit, I never played the original DotA, and LoL is my first real exposure to the ARTS style of game. That said, I like it, and I'm curious about DotA2 and Blizzard DotA.
I've been trying to play more standard LoL than Dominion so I can learn more about lane control, "real" item choices and decision-making when enemies come into range. My questions are the following:
1. What bad habits do LoL players participate in that I should actively be trying to break? (Simply "playing LoL" doesn't count  )
2. I've heard consumables are a bigger part of DotA and its sequel/spinoffs than LoL. Should I continue to use them in LoL even if I'm the only player on my team doing so?
3. Is it worth my time to dig up my old copy of Warcraft III and download whatever I need for the current version of DotA instead of playing LoL?
Thanks in advance, folks. Here's hoping I don't get smacked with the banhammer!
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I can't really say fo the first two, but for 3 the answer is very definitely yes.
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1) This kind of ties into the second part. One of the large things that LoL has and DotA doesn't have is a higher level of 'spamming' in spells. This is in part due to the low cooldown / high mana pool of each hero. In DotA, conservation is key, as, depending on which hero you play, you have a limited mana pool. For example, a hero like sven, where his stun is 140 mana, a decent point to start from, he only has a base of around 220, so your looking to stun once or twice every few minutes. It's important to know when to stun, and how your doing it. Positioning is also key, as DotA does not come equipped with skills like flash. Simply being an inch where your not supposed to be leads to a kill. And in DotA, it snowballs like nuts.
Consumables are a large part of DotA, mainly because we don't have the free TP back to base. It costs money to go to and from the base, i.e TP Scroll / money you'd gain from creeping. So it's essential you stay in the lane as long as possible. There is also a courier system. In LoL if you need an item, you simply use your free TP to heal / buy. in DotA, the courier provides both, you purchase regen / your items and ferry it to you. The key concept of consumables is that it allows you to stay in the lane the longest, the heroes with the higher level will always have a lane advantage, so its advantageous to stay as long as physically possible before going back.
DotA 2 isn't too different in terms of gameplay, so it would be advantageous to play around with it. What will hurt new players the most is the shop system, and knowing what skills do what. In DotA 2, the shop system is confusing as all hell, but if you familiarize yourself with the item names, you can simply type it in and it'll come up, saving you a boatload of time you'd spend otherwise tinkering around. On top of that, knowing the hero skills, mana costs, etc, will give you an advantage.
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3. You can also go the route of DL'in HoN since its now has a free to play model like LoL... It is a lot more similar to dota than LoL and you dont have to find your old cd keys ;D
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1. lack of wards, not enough ganking, jungling isnt as big anymore due to many ways to deny creeps. There are no denying mechanics in lol u gota work on that. there is no free tp/rune pages
2. Lane stay in dota is alot harder simply because of the amount of harass you can do with autoattacking/trilanes/nukes. consumables in lol arent that good since it heals too slow late game compared to salves. early game i think LoL is in the middle since their basic potion heals alot more than tango
3. To practice denying and stuff sure. familiarize urself with the heroes/items (direct port but various small changes such as animations, ministuns removed here and there). there's gona be a super steep learning curve and ur gona get flamed at so much but keep at it
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I have to say, I disagree with some of the post above:
1. There are no "bad habits" that make LoL players worse DotA players(and the other way around). The games are different and thus you need to play differently to be successful.
However, BlitzDOTA is right that mana management is more important in DotA, also the farming in DotA is mainly done by lasthitting with auto- attacks whereas in LoL you spam your spells.
Still, I wouldn't call these differences in gameplay "bad habits".
Comparing DotA/ HoN/ LoL, flaming and leaving would be things I consider as "bad habits" ;-)
2. I think I don't know exactly what you mean but why should you stop using consumables if they are used in both games?
3. If you really want to start playing DotA 2 when it's released you will heavily benefit from playing DotA 1 as you need to know 108(?) heroes and their spells. You will learn how every hero attacks, moves and just "feels" differently. In LoL the heroes have pretty much the same attack speed/ animation imo(biggest difference is probably the one between ADs and APs but still not too hard to learn).
Also, the whole gameplay is different: ganks in LoL are pretty rare compared to DotA, the execution of ganks needs to be much faster/ precise in DotA than in LoL.
Teamfights and the positioning before a teamfight in LoL is easier. In LoL teams mostly face each other in a "open" 5v5 situation whereas in DotA you initiate completely different.
Conclusion:
If you really want to get into DotA 2, start playing DotA 1. There are no skills that you can learn in LoL that can directly be transfered to DotA (2).
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Come back to the dark side.
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I really recommend you to try DotA AI on WC3. Remember to read guides, etc. The bots are pretty good.
I started by doing that and was fun from the beginning.
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The main difference / habits that I think a LoL player should be aware of are :
1. Good player can abuse the hell out of a bad player much more than LoL due to many different things. Gold Loss, Deny, etc. Don't be discouraged and ask for help. Observe what the other guy are doing to you, even the smallest little things. That's the best way to learn.
2. Mana management is important. You have to really make your spells counts. In LoL you can spam away skills to farm creeps. Not so much in Dota early game. If you don't manage your mana properly, you will find yourself being unable to do anything in lane and that will affect your farm/level etc.
3. Being forced to last hit under the tower is not a bad thing in Dota. Vice versa, early game you should not push the waves so hard that it goes to their tower ( generally a good thing in LoL because that's the only way to "deny" creeps so to speak). Utilize deny and last hit properly to control the lane equilibrium.
3. Tp scrolls. Always carry tp scroll. The most important item in dota. This allows you to join teamfights / ganks when you need it while staying efficient in leveling and farming. Absolutely essential. Other consumables are crucial early game to stay in lane but not so good mid to late game. There is no need to buy healing consumables past early game.
4. Wards are precious. Use them wisely if you are a support. And it costs a lot as well especially for a support. You don't have the freedom (stock and cash wise) to spam it all over the map anytime you want it. Watch minimap and you gotta have a certain kind of map sense if the map is dark.
5. Dota 1 is always worth your time. Millions still play it especially in Asia. In US, you won't lack players to play with as well. Not sure where is beginner friendly though. HoN is decent and a good alternative but quite a few heroes are different. Playing LoL is not really going to help you specifically in Dota. Some things are of course similar across the genre. Map awareness, teamwork, etc.
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Deffinatly dig out your war 3 and play it. Its a lot different to lol and you need to get the hang of not having free TPs and being able to deny.
Also all the heroes are pretty much direct ports so going from Dota 1 to dota 2 is just a graphical update for the most part with some tweaks here and there.
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I may get smacked around for asking this, but it's a question that's been nagging me ever since I started puttering around in LoL. So here goes!
It makes me sad that you felt scared to post a completely reasonable question on teamliquid. The internet is harsh :3 If you have any questions regarding the game, let me know, and I can put you in touch with some pro LoL players that currently have the beta for DotA 2 that would give you a better perspective.
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I think 2 of the things that make lol players worse at dota 2 than say hon players is the speed. Dota2/hon is much more fast paced that lol is, and last hitting. It's nowhere near as easy in dota2/hon as it is in LoL. Alot of people compare last hitting in dota 2 with every hero, to last hitting with karthus's auto attack in LoL. But in general i'd say play some dota if you want to, Hon is a decent alternative too. IF you decide to try out dota on wc3, remember to get something to sort out hotkeys, like warkeys or whatever (been a while)
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On October 31 2011 21:10 BlitzDOTA wrote:
Simply being an inch where your not supposed to be leads to a kill.
Just like in LoL.
Flash in LoL is not something you surprise your opponent with. Your enemy knows that you have Flash in the same way that you yourself do.
If Anti-Mage farms one more creep wave that other champions couldnt have farmed, that doesn't mean he is out of position. Your enemies know you can blink away, and you know it, otherwise you wouldn't have been there in the first place.
Someone who has Flash ready and gets ganked but "luckily" escapes with Flash wasn't lucky: he had Flash and wasn't out of position in the first place. (The price for that being that he doesn't have Flash ready now for the next few minutes, meaning he will have to play way more defensively.)
On October 31 2011 21:10 BlitzDOTA wrote:
Consumables are a large part of DotA, mainly because we don't have the free TP back to base. It costs money to go to and from the base, i.e TP Scroll / money you'd gain from creeping.
Just like in LoL.
Opportunity cost. TPing back to base takes 8 seconds and you can't just TP back to the lane like you can in DotA. Also, as you said, there is a courier in DotA, which allows you to shop from lane. CASUAL MUCH?
Obviously DotA is harder, but mainly to due to denying (and harder last hitting in general), more complex heros and items, more powerful and expensive spells (and a worse UI).
But bringing up Summoner Spells and Recalling to say LoL is easier is just wrong.
A bit more on topic:
I recommend playing DotA or HoN.
LoL is too different and especially last-hitting and denying really is a HUGE difference, for me at least.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On October 31 2011 20:21 BlueInkAlchemist wrote:I may get smacked around for asking this, but it's a question that's been nagging me ever since I started puttering around in LoL. So here goes! The opening threads in this section make it clear that there's a huge difference between League of Legends and Defense of the Ancients 2. I must admit, I never played the original DotA, and LoL is my first real exposure to the ARTS style of game. That said, I like it, and I'm curious about DotA2 and Blizzard DotA. I've been trying to play more standard LoL than Dominion so I can learn more about lane control, "real" item choices and decision-making when enemies come into range. My questions are the following: 1. What bad habits do LoL players participate in that I should actively be trying to break? (Simply "playing LoL" doesn't count ) 2. I've heard consumables are a bigger part of DotA and its sequel/spinoffs than LoL. Should I continue to use them in LoL even if I'm the only player on my team doing so? 3. Is it worth my time to dig up my old copy of Warcraft III and download whatever I need for the current version of DotA instead of playing LoL? Thanks in advance, folks. Here's hoping I don't get smacked with the banhammer!
Play Dota, LoL is way different then Dota,
I wrote this a while ago for a guy asking the diffs between dota/hon and lol
On September 28 2011 04:28 Kipsate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 04:03 Cornstarched wrote:
Hello im new to this kind of game Dota/Dota 2/ Heros of Newearth/ and leauge of legends
I have all 3 games and played them al for a couple of hours, and i havent been able to tell the difference between them.
YES they look difference have different toons abilities maps, but its basicly the same game
U have champion, you kill CREEPS/Towers/Other Champions to get gold and buy gear. The lvl caps are different each game but the goal and playstyles are so the exsact same(To my very limited experienced view)
My question, why the hell are there 3 of these games and which one is the better one,
I don't care about graphics quality or money or anything, get down to the basics of the game. Im genuinly curious(spelling=bad) how and why 3 of the same game are being held in compitions like MLG and Dreamhack Its not the same game, HoN resembles Dota/Dota 2 but the games itself is different, some heroes are different and some heroes are added/removed and changed subsequently changing the meta game. So far, Dota 2 is bascially an improved version of Dota which works the same. The differences between Dota and League of Legends however are huge. League of Legends is a totally different game based around the same concept, no Hero/Champion is the same as in the other games(although they do resemble each other). The map is also different and the way heroes improve themselves are different, there are Ability Power(AP) and AD(Attack Damage) champions in LoL. One being casters usually and the other based around physical damage. In Dota however casters do not scale as well, their abilities are static and can only be improved by a single item. Casters serve more of a Crowd control role in Dota, to support the hard carry. This is also a difference between LoL and Dota, Dota revolves alot more around a single hardcarry, one hero which can destroy everything provided the right farm while he is being supported by others. There is also a difference in mana and ability concepts, in LoL you have alot of champions(pretty much every champion) which has abilities on very short cooldowns which are spammable and cost little mana, this is not the case of Dota most of the times. Dota knows the deny mechanic, whereas LoL does not, denying is the act of killing your own creeps while they are on low hp, therefore ''denying'' your opponent gold and a certain portion of the exp. Dota is alot more aggressive play then LoL(atleast at the start), Ganking is alot weaker in LoL this is part due to a couple mechanics. 1.Flash, virtually every Champion/Hero takes Flash, a short-distance teleport (if you know what blink is you know what I mean) on a long cooldown, allowing people to escape. 2.Ganking is less rewarding, not only do you gain an incredible amount of exp in dota when you kill someone(relevant to LoL) you also deny your opponent a certain amount of gold(when you die, you lose gold). 3.Tower diving also occurs more in Dota then it does in LoL(atleast in the early stages of the game) this is because well lets just say that Dota's towers hit like trucks........and LoL towers hit like freight treins. The LoL tower AI is also much more refined then the Dota one and it WILL attack you instantly whenever you attack a hero while being in range of an enemy tower, the Dota one does not always do this. 4. The power of wards and Clairvoyance in LoL, wards are cheap(relativly speaking), invisible and provide vision of certain gank paths in League of Legends, and they last a fairly long time, coupled with the fact that Clairvoyance is a free ''flare''(think, instant vision of a radius everywhere on the map) on a fairly short cooldown(45s?) people can spot ganks more easily. Moreover Dota has something called Smoke of deceit, this bypasses the enemies wards (you are invisible during it and gain increased movement speed) which allows for faster ganking. The game is also more aggressive due to the metagames currently going on(I might be wrong here right now) Tri-laning(having 3 heroes on a single lane) is much more prevalent in Dota, leading too more aggressive play from the 3 heroes and more ganks on the other 2 heroes who are both single laning. The LoL metagame includes having an AD carry and a support hero babysitting him(usually providing heals or shields) this makes the lane phase less aggressive bottom lane in the sense that both teams are durable. LoL however does have usually a jungler/roamer who can gank the other lanes but this is diminished due to the effectivness of ClairVoyance and wards. There is also the power of runes for ganking, runes are like power-ups in Dota, they give a hero extra damage, speed, regeneration or invisibility, which empowers the hero shortly and allowing it to gank easier. There are many differences between Dota/Hon and LoL and these are just the tip of the iceberg really. As for which game is better, that is subjective. Many people consider LoL a more casual game due to having no denying mechanic and alot of other stuff but that doesn't make it a worse game. Ow yeah, all communities are shit and they will flame you if you do even the slightest thing wrong  . Good luck and have fun.
So basically
Play dota, get used to it, LoL is nothing like it.
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uhhhmmmm not to be a hater but consumables are used heavily at high levels in LoL it all depends upon your character
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This is a pretty easy question to answer for yourself. Just figure out what you want to do in dota 2, or what you're trying to do. Are you trying to train yourself before you play it so you aren't completely lost? Or do you want to be really good at dota 2?
Aside from all the little specific details, the thing that matters the most is that if you want to be prepared for dota 2, the very best way bar none for ANY player from ANY game is to play dota 1. Dota 2 is widely known to be as close a port as possible to the original game. The entire mindset, how you perceive the game is the most important thing you can learn at this point, and it is only by experiencing dota 1 that you can hope to apply what you've learned to dota 2. Why do you think dota 1 players are transitioning so smoothly? This isn't like sc2 where bw and war 3 players can conglomerate and succeed at varying levels. Dota 1 pros are by far more populous in number, and many pros from hon are former dota pros themselves or played a shit ton before they moved.
There's lots of free ways to play war3. This hon is free to play argument is true and fine, but hon is not the same [ in the important ways that matter ] to dota1. Please don't let anyone tell you this lie.
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On November 01 2011 00:28 Sgonzo wrote:
uhhhmmmm not to be a hater but consumables are used heavily at high levels in LoL it all depends upon your character
Of course but in Dota/Dota2/HoN, there is more consumable. And some consumable dissipate when attacked upon. Also you dont get the instant teleport back to base so you must conserve what you have and be more worried about harass. Also warding and counter warding is alot more key since not seeing a gank is instant death since the game is much more fast pace compare to LoL.
Also there are SHIT SHIT ton of CC (crowd control) in dota/dota2/HoN and like mentioned above, you must learn how to use these and when not to use these. Such as coordinating it correctly to stun lock. LoL you rarely see any character that can stun and when they can they usually only stun from 1 sec - 2 sec at the most but in dota 2, almost every single character has 1 and if not 2 CC such as a stun or snare or something around that.
I think a good good habit to break when playing dota from your transition is DONT rely to much on tower. In dota, it much much more easy to tower dive. So if you think you + 1 tower vs 2 guys would be safe, you are WRONG! Shit can turn around fast if you dont pay close attention. This is allowed because Dota has TP scroll and you must rely on your team mate to TP in to assist you. Basically after lvl 6, you need to stop relying on tower as much since I know LoL people love tower hugging.
Also another big key is Denys. Which is a big big key but you may not think it alot but now you need to balance out when to harass, farm, and deny. This is much much harder to do because you will also need to look at mini map for possible ganks.
I would recommend HoN since it currently free and is basically the same thing as dota 1 but with more tweak. Even most of the item will be the same. I think people recommending Dota 1 is a bad example simply because you need to buy the game, and not as much people play on it anymore and the match making is terrible if you call it match making but if you want the best example of dota 2 than play dota 1.
On November 01 2011 01:18 Ack1027 wrote:
This is a pretty easy question to answer for yourself. Just figure out what you want to do in dota 2, or what you're trying to do. Are you trying to train yourself before you play it so you aren't completely lost? Or do you want to be really good at dota 2?
Aside from all the little specific details, the thing that matters the most is that if you want to be prepared for dota 2, the very best way bar none for ANY player from ANY game is to play dota 1. Dota 2 is widely known to be as close a port as possible to the original game. The entire mindset, how you perceive the game is the most important thing you can learn at this point, and it is only by experiencing dota 1 that you can hope to apply what you've learned to dota 2. Why do you think dota 1 players are transitioning so smoothly? This isn't like sc2 where bw and war 3 players can conglomerate and succeed at varying levels. Dota 1 pros are by far more populous in number, and many pros from hon are former dota pros themselves or played a shit ton before they moved.
There's lots of free ways to play war3. This hon is free to play argument is true and fine, but hon is not the same [ in the important ways that matter ] to dota1. Please don't let anyone tell you this lie.
Not trying to start a large debate but what important factor are different about HoN and Dota 1? I havent played HoN for too long myself but it feel about the same does it not?
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There is a point very important in dota and hon, you have stats like strength, agility and intelligence, these stats are very important and their management, via items or stat points when you lvl up, make a lot of difference. for instance, like blitzdota said, when playing sven/rogue knight, you have a little mana pool that only allows you to make a spell every couple of minutes in the best case scenario, but if you put stat points when leveling up, it will increase your mana pool slightly and it'll be able to do the stun more often.
you have to see a lot of games and play a lot of games as well. one advice, go check joindota.com, tobi and synd do a great cast because they always comment and introduce the heroes and the game in everycast, so that newbies can get into dota more easilly.
go check some of their vods
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Hey,
most things are alrdy said.
Imo just get HoN and learn the game.
I play dota since 4 years or so and it is rly annoying to play publics on (Dota-league, Dotalicious etc.)
And u dont have to buy HoN and dont need extra hotkey tools for HoN and it is nearly like Dota1
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On November 01 2011 02:00 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 00:28 Sgonzo wrote:
uhhhmmmm not to be a hater but consumables are used heavily at high levels in LoL it all depends upon your character Of course but in Dota/Dota2/HoN, there is more consumable. And some consumable dissipate when attacked upon. Also you dont get the instant teleport back to base so you must conserve what you have and be more worried about harass. Also warding and counter warding is alot more key since not seeing a gank is instant death since the game is much more fast pace compare to LoL. Also there are SHIT SHIT ton of CC (crowd control) in dota/dota2/HoN and like mentioned above, you must learn how to use these and when not to use these. Such as coordinating it correctly to stun lock. LoL you rarely see any character that can stun and when they can they usually only stun from 1 sec - 2 sec at the most but in dota 2, almost every single character has 1 and if not 2 CC such as a stun or snare or something around that. I think a good good habit to break when playing dota from your transition is DONT rely to much on tower. In dota, it much much more easy to tower dive. So if you think you + 1 tower vs 2 guys would be safe, you are WRONG! Shit can turn around fast if you dont pay close attention. This is allowed because Dota has TP scroll and you must rely on your team mate to TP in to assist you. Basically after lvl 6, you need to stop relying on tower as much since I know LoL people love tower hugging. Also another big key is Denys. Which is a big big key but you may not think it alot but now you need to balance out when to harass, farm, and deny. This is much much harder to do because you will also need to look at mini map for possible ganks. I would recommend HoN since it currently free and is basically the same thing as dota 1 but with more tweak. Even most of the item will be the same. I think people recommending Dota 1 is a bad example simply because you need to buy the game, and not as much people play on it anymore and the match making is terrible. Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 01:18 Ack1027 wrote:
This is a pretty easy question to answer for yourself. Just figure out what you want to do in dota 2, or what you're trying to do. Are you trying to train yourself before you play it so you aren't completely lost? Or do you want to be really good at dota 2?
Aside from all the little specific details, the thing that matters the most is that if you want to be prepared for dota 2, the very best way bar none for ANY player from ANY game is to play dota 1. Dota 2 is widely known to be as close a port as possible to the original game. The entire mindset, how you perceive the game is the most important thing you can learn at this point, and it is only by experiencing dota 1 that you can hope to apply what you've learned to dota 2. Why do you think dota 1 players are transitioning so smoothly? This isn't like sc2 where bw and war 3 players can conglomerate and succeed at varying levels. Dota 1 pros are by far more populous in number, and many pros from hon are former dota pros themselves or played a shit ton before they moved.
There's lots of free ways to play war3. This hon is free to play argument is true and fine, but hon is not the same [ in the important ways that matter ] to dota1. Please don't let anyone tell you this lie. Not trying to start a large debate but what important factor are different about HoN and Dota 1? I havent played HoN for too long myself but it feel about the same does it not?
Different heroes(some are ported some arent, and some of the ported ones are changed), heroes are build differently, metagame is more favored towards ranged carries, no urn, no smoke of deceit, I believe the map is different to allow the sentinel better access to roshan.
top of my head.
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I've been over it a lot of times and most people who've never played competitively don't agree.
1. The terrain is different. This effects team fight and skirmish dynamics, juking, warding.
2. If you rate attack animations in dota on a scale from 1-10 [ with 10 being the easiest/best ] then almost all of hon's attack animations are 7 or higher. At the most basic level, if you give crystal maiden to the hands of a pro like 13abyknight or ZSMJ they will rape a pubber even if they are playing viper. But if a pro plays cm vs another pro, they have very little chance of overcoming, or if they do its a great accomplishment. This permeates into everything, farming, denying, tower denying, last hitting, to timing kills based of DOTs like doom or shadow strike.
3. In hon you have way more options for movespeed. I don't play hon but I have friends who play it and they've told me there's been shit like AOE phase boots and things that make you run faster as long as you keep running. This means you don't have to worry as much about positioning. Some of the highest level play you can see from pro supports is how they position themselves or bait their carries/initiators in team fights.
4. Hon items are different. There's no equivalent for things like Nome's wisdom in dota. Just by being different it will lead to different gameplay. And as kipsate mentioned, dota has urn and smoke of deceit.
5. Hon's hero design is much different from Icefrog. Lots of hon heroes come into the game with stuns/slows/aoe/range/movespeed buff/silence all on one hero. <-- not altogether of course, but some combination of these things.
Basically even if you ignore all those points, just ask yourself...if hon and dota are the same in gameplay, then do you only play hon because it's better graphics and matchmaking? No, hon does a lot of things differently. Look at someone like Chu, among the best to ever play Hon. He was a low-to-mid pro in dota. If you asked him if the games were the same, he'd probably say no. He's looking forward to dota 2 for a reason.
Dota is icefrog's creation. Dota2 is also under his creative leadership. Hon is not. League of legends is not. Just by this fact alone you should be able to see you will benefit from playing dota 1, the game icefrog is essentially drawing from to create dota 2.
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On November 01 2011 02:19 Ack1027 wrote:
I've been over it a lot of times and most people who've never played competitively don't agree.
1. The terrain is different. This effects team fight and skirmish dynamics, juking, warding.
2. If you rate attack animations in dota on a scale from 1-10 [ with 10 being the easiest/best ] then almost all of hon's attack animations are 7 or higher. At the most basic level, if you give crystal maiden to the hands of a pro like 13abyknight or ZSMJ they will rape a pubber even if they are playing viper. But if a pro plays cm vs another pro, they have very little chance of overcoming, or if they do its a great accomplishment. This permeates into everything, farming, denying, tower denying, last hitting, to timing kills based of DOTs like doom or shadow strike.
3. In hon you have way more options for movespeed. I don't play hon but I have friends who play it and they've told me there's been shit like AOE phase boots and things that make you run faster as long as you keep running. This means you don't have to worry as much about positioning. Some of the highest level play you can see from pro supports is how they position themselves or bait their carries/initiators in team fights.
4. Hon items are different. There's no equivalent for things like Nome's wisdom in dota. Just by being different it will lead to different gameplay. And as kipsate mentioned, dota has urn and smoke of deceit.
5. Hon's hero design is much different from Icefrog. Lots of hon heroes come into the game with stuns/slows/aoe/range/movespeed buff/silence all on one hero. <-- not altogether of course, but some combination of these things.
Basically even if you ignore all those points, just ask yourself...if hon and dota are the same in gameplay, then do you only play hon because it's better graphics and matchmaking? No, hon does a lot of things differently. Look at someone like Chu, among the best to ever play Hon. He was a low-to-mid pro in dota. If you asked him if the games were the same, he'd probably say no. He's looking forward to dota 2 for a reason.
Dota is icefrog's creation. Dota2 is also under his creative leadership. Hon is not. League of legends is not. Just by this fact alone you should be able to see you will benefit from playing dota 1, the game icefrog is essentially drawing from to create dota 2.
This is pretty accurate, tho the differences aren't that big, the attack animation thing is a definite difference, but the attack animation change comes far more from the engine change than any deliberate change in stats and is probably closer to that of Dota2
The boots thing is really just the choice for supports, in Hon supports can be reasonably useful with 800 gold (+100spd while not in combat) while DotA supports tend to go for mana boots for speed and teamfights, this allows for supports in Hon to be "poorer" while remaining effective, and drastically changes things like trilanes and roaming, whereas the aoe phase is really just a modified Jango
Chu was a lot better at Dota than you give him credit for, he was part of the Korean national team and genuinely gave Chinese teams trouble in several Asian tourneys in 08 and 09, which is at least on par with top Western Teams of the same time
HoN essentially copied dota at its conception and was for a long time under advice from icefrog, however, once icefrog got picked up for dota2 by valve, they've diverged significant from DotA
the only hero with "stuns/slows/aoe/range/movespeed buff/silence" is invoker ;p
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On November 01 2011 02:19 Ack1027 wrote:
I've been over it a lot of times and most people who've never played competitively don't agree.
1. The terrain is different. This effects team fight and skirmish dynamics, juking, warding.
2. If you rate attack animations in dota on a scale from 1-10 [ with 10 being the easiest/best ] then almost all of hon's attack animations are 7 or higher. At the most basic level, if you give crystal maiden to the hands of a pro like 13abyknight or ZSMJ they will rape a pubber even if they are playing viper. But if a pro plays cm vs another pro, they have very little chance of overcoming, or if they do its a great accomplishment. This permeates into everything, farming, denying, tower denying, last hitting, to timing kills based of DOTs like doom or shadow strike.
3. In hon you have way more options for movespeed. I don't play hon but I have friends who play it and they've told me there's been shit like AOE phase boots and things that make you run faster as long as you keep running. This means you don't have to worry as much about positioning. Some of the highest level play you can see from pro supports is how they position themselves or bait their carries/initiators in team fights.
4. Hon items are different. There's no equivalent for things like Nome's wisdom in dota. Just by being different it will lead to different gameplay. And as kipsate mentioned, dota has urn and smoke of deceit.
5. Hon's hero design is much different from Icefrog. Lots of hon heroes come into the game with stuns/slows/aoe/range/movespeed buff/silence all on one hero. <-- not altogether of course, but some combination of these things.
Basically even if you ignore all those points, just ask yourself...if hon and dota are the same in gameplay, then do you only play hon because it's better graphics and matchmaking? No, hon does a lot of things differently. Look at someone like Chu, among the best to ever play Hon. He was a low-to-mid pro in dota. If you asked him if the games were the same, he'd probably say no. He's looking forward to dota 2 for a reason.
Dota is icefrog's creation. Dota2 is also under his creative leadership. Hon is not. League of legends is not. Just by this fact alone you should be able to see you will benefit from playing dota 1, the game icefrog is essentially drawing from to create dota 2.
1. I dont think this effect the game that much. It just make different area more important than other. I think if Dota 2 used the same map as HoN, I doubt it would be that dramatic except Rosh of course.
2. I definitely noticed this for sure
3. There is no such thing as AOE phase boot that i can recall but there is a boot that if you are out of combat for certain duration then you gain quiet a bit of movement speed. This boot I consider quiet redicluas as well and I understand your point on this boots
4. Indeed there are differences in item but the majority of the item are the same such as SnY, bkb, linken, mjolinar, mkb, basher and majority of the boots etc etc etc...
5. Well the reason most hero come into the game some kind of CC is because most of the original hero have some sort of CC as well. Can you really point out 5 hero that doesnt have some sort of CC without looking it up? If the new hero doesnt come with some sort of CC then they will be obsolete and too weak. It just part of dota to have alot of CC.
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Canada381 Posts
Play LoL or HoN and just learn how to last hit really good. That's the most important thing going from one to the other. DOTA/DOTA2 has a lot more last hitting as you can deny by last hitting your own mininons. Other than that just playing any MOBA will help you into your transition to dota2.
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On November 01 2011 03:18 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 02:19 Ack1027 wrote:
I've been over it a lot of times and most people who've never played competitively don't agree.
1. The terrain is different. This effects team fight and skirmish dynamics, juking, warding.
2. If you rate attack animations in dota on a scale from 1-10 [ with 10 being the easiest/best ] then almost all of hon's attack animations are 7 or higher. At the most basic level, if you give crystal maiden to the hands of a pro like 13abyknight or ZSMJ they will rape a pubber even if they are playing viper. But if a pro plays cm vs another pro, they have very little chance of overcoming, or if they do its a great accomplishment. This permeates into everything, farming, denying, tower denying, last hitting, to timing kills based of DOTs like doom or shadow strike.
3. In hon you have way more options for movespeed. I don't play hon but I have friends who play it and they've told me there's been shit like AOE phase boots and things that make you run faster as long as you keep running. This means you don't have to worry as much about positioning. Some of the highest level play you can see from pro supports is how they position themselves or bait their carries/initiators in team fights.
4. Hon items are different. There's no equivalent for things like Nome's wisdom in dota. Just by being different it will lead to different gameplay. And as kipsate mentioned, dota has urn and smoke of deceit.
5. Hon's hero design is much different from Icefrog. Lots of hon heroes come into the game with stuns/slows/aoe/range/movespeed buff/silence all on one hero. <-- not altogether of course, but some combination of these things.
Basically even if you ignore all those points, just ask yourself...if hon and dota are the same in gameplay, then do you only play hon because it's better graphics and matchmaking? No, hon does a lot of things differently. Look at someone like Chu, among the best to ever play Hon. He was a low-to-mid pro in dota. If you asked him if the games were the same, he'd probably say no. He's looking forward to dota 2 for a reason.
Dota is icefrog's creation. Dota2 is also under his creative leadership. Hon is not. League of legends is not. Just by this fact alone you should be able to see you will benefit from playing dota 1, the game icefrog is essentially drawing from to create dota 2. 1. I dont think this effect the game that much. It just make different area more important than other. I think if Dota 2 used the same map as HoN, I doubt it would be that dramatic except Rosh of course. 2. I definitely noticed this for sure 3. There is no such thing as AOE phase boot that i can recall but there is a boot that if you are out of combat for certain duration then you gain quiet a bit of movement speed. This boot I consider quiet redicluas as well and I understand your point on this boots 4. Indeed there are differences in item but the majority of the item are the same such as SnY, bkb, linken, mjolinar, mkb, basher and majority of the boots etc etc etc... 5. Well the reason most hero come into the game some kind of CC is because most of the original hero have some sort of CC as well. Can you really point out 5 hero that doesnt have some sort of CC without looking it up? If the new hero doesnt come with some sort of CC then they will be obsolete and too weak. It just part of dota to have alot of CC.
About 4, some items like Sol's Bulwark and Spellshards can make a big diference, the same can be said about the lack of Smoke or Arcane Boots. Most items are the same, but some key diferences really do change the game.
5. He didn't say Dota heroes had no CC, but that HoN heroes ussually have multiple types of CC/utility/farming tools. About your question, I have a limited knowledge about Dota's current playing styles, but from what I've heard, heroes like AM, Spectre, Tinker, Zeus, Necrolyte, with low amounts of CC, if any at all, are much more viable at Dota than their counterparts at HoN, if avaible.
I also feel that HoN has a lot more burst damage overall, and a lot of Dota ports received buffs, while very few, if any, received nerfs.
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I haven't played DotA much more than 2 or 3 times wayyy back when I was a dumbass kid and didn't know shit. But I did play LoL for a while when it was new (back when HoN was in closed beta).
Then one day after playing LoL for a decent while and loving the basic idea of the game, I went over to my buddies house and watched him play a single game of HoN, then I played my first game, and I haven't even opened a LoL client since then, and that's been since at least over a year ago.
HoN would probably be your best bet at the most gentle entrance to a real dota-like experience instead of going straight to war3.
As a side question to people who do play LoL and prefer it, WHY? I seriously don't understand the appeal at all when compared to dota2 or HoN. The gameplay feels slow, spammy and down right dull in my opinion, as well as the lack of any form of deny (towers too are bigdealdeny worthy, as well as pro hero denies) and no "trees" in the war3 sense of the term so you can't juke and eat through trees like a boss. So for reals people, why play LoL when you can play HoN? Convince me of something.
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I wouldn't go back to play the original dota. Just go download Heroes of Newerth, its pretty close to dota and now free to play.
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2 completely different games.
1. One of the biggest differences between DotA and LoL is the laning phase. In LoL much of it is just skill shooting into bushes and getting last hits, and the lane setups are usually 1/1/2/jungle. It's hard to get ganked early game in LoL as you have free blinks, so you can play a lot more greedy than in DotA. In DotA laning is an artform. Solo/Solo/Tri, Dual/Solo/Dual, Solo/Solo/Dual/Jungle, etc, each has a very different play-style depending on where you are. You have to last hit, deny, and conserve mana. The thing I hate about LoL is that spells for most characters are pretty much free, and some are literally free. In DotA if you play juggernaut you literally only have enough mana to use blade fury once. Basically a LoL player needs to actively just hit/deny call misses, and always have tp's and play safe when transitioning to dota.
2. Consumables in DotA are the most important part about the game. TP's cost 135, Wards Cost 200, bottle cost 600, tangos cost 90, healing salve cost 100, clarity cost 50. Compare this to LoL where TP's are free(to base only), teleport also free with a long cooldown. Wards cost like 35 I think, hp/mana pots cost around 35. Everything in DotA really adds up, especially TP's. In LoL much of this is pretty much free but aside for wards I'm sure you already use them a lot. Wards are the most important item in DotA as they give you map control whereas in LoL, every character has the potential to teleport around, hide in bushes, etc. that wards are much less valuable.
3. Piratebay WC3 -> DL Garena -> play. If you've never had experience with DotA before, you will probably hate the game at first, but stick around and it will be a lot of fun.
Oh I should mention this somewhere too. The biggest hero difference between DotA and LoL is that in DotA, nukers(zeus, lion, lina, etc.) basically do no damage in the late game, whereas in LoL spellcasters get stronger as the game goes on due to ability power. In DotA if you eventually become a full support with sheepstick, euls, mech, etc. whereas in LoL you just keep adding to your nuke damage. DotA late game essentially is carry+supports vs carry+supports while LoL is a complete brawl.
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1. you're trying to break away from habits. Take it like this: don't assume anything is similar between the games. Treat them as different entities and you're learning something completely new.
2. If you think doing dota habits in LoL will help you play correctly in dota then go for it.
3. Yes, play HoN / Dota. Getting actual experience with these games will help you solve question 1) much easier than roughing your way through it with dota2.
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I think the most common mistake for people switching is that they assume the games are similar akin to a player going from brood war to starcraft II. However, it can be said that LoL and HoN/DotA are completely different games despite being in the same genre. Sure the lasthitting skills help, but don't expect to do things you can do in LoL to happen in Dota/HoN and vice versa.
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I think you should just wait and see if you will like the game first.
For what I saw on streams there are pretty much a lot of ways to get the hang of it, and it would be even nicer to start with people that also knows zero from the game instead of being a "high level noob" that knows a lot and doesnt know a lot too.....
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I will try and put this politely. He was most likely making a statement with intentional exageration to point out that the current form of DotA is in fact IceFrog's creation. While previous heads of the game made a fun game (ie Allstars, intended to unite casuals), IceFrog has been moving for many years to make it competitive.
Also, people like to give credit where it isn't due. They say IceFrog is just some squatter, but its unfair to say the likes of Guinsoo made DotA. They didn't. They made DotA allstars. The original DotA is from ages ago, and so it has been more like a genre for some time now than a stable game.
In that way, IceFrog did make DotA. Or, its current incarnation. It was not Guinsoo's DotA that became one of the favourite past-times for Chinese youth.
So yes, IceFrog didn't invent DotA. But I think you can understand what people mean when they say that he made it. It is not out of ignorance, but rather admoration.
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fuck.
Every time I want to post and share information it's shit like this that makes me hesitate.
After reading the rest of my post, you couldn't deduce that I already knew this?
I realize who euls, guinsoo, icefrog, etc are. If we all spent time specifying every single point then discussion would never get anywhere. Dota is icefrog's creation means COMPETITIVE DOTA TODAY IS WHERE IT IS DUE IN LARGE PART TO ICEFROG, ALSO DOTA2 IS LED BY ICEFROG.
Basically what Shai said.
Anyway, pretty good discussion generated so far about the differences. My personal opinion is that any little thing that deviates from dota1 in hon actually makes a big difference in a competitive environment. A jango in dota1 is a jango in dota2. Whatever the hon equivalent is does not act exactly like jango, so there WILL be subtle changes. In a lot of cases, in a competitive game, its hard to say that playing hon will let you understand these subtle interactions in dota 2.
I'm not trying to say one game is better than the other overall, but to answer the original question playing dota1 will give you the best window into what dota2 is, and will be.
In response to Kupon3ss:
The way I rate dota players is their overall impact. Chu was a great player. He had really great heroes like tiny, meepo, qop, tb, luna and incredible micro. He was among the best to race to a divine rapier bkb. His farm rate in competitive games against hard teams was something like 80% of possible creeps/neuts. But his overall impact of games usually relied on the success of his farm. So in this way he is like Kuroky or Ritter. If you compare him to someone like Heen, who was Korean team captain, I feel he is less valuable. Chu couldn't lead in 08 and 09 like Heen, and no matter what role Heen plays he always finds a way to be effective. If you gave Chu someone like vs, lich, veno, pugna imho he wouldn't be that amazing. We'll never really know, because he quit as he was rising in skill and popularity....But it does show you he's not upper tier of absolute pros because someone like Testie who hadn't played dota very long could play meepo as well as he did.
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testie didnt make any impact on dota at all... and chu was very good lol
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United States1508 Posts
Little off topic but I been getting together a group of mates I've met through LoL over the months and have been getting together a group to do dota inhouses. As of right now, it's about 12 of us playing through garena. So this is an open invite to anyone else interested, just send me a PM and I'll add you through steam and try to get some games going. So far we haven't had a full ten on so I can't say how well they have gone yet but in theory it seems like this will be a nicer transition then just jumping into pubbing and having 0 fun while ruining games for the other nine people.
And on topic: My initial issues I had transitioning were getting used to having my hero deselected, adjusting to the shop system, and in general dealing with being a complete noob all over again and having no idea what the heroes I'm laning against do.
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Best immediate advice I can give is to play DotA1, learn to last hit, and learn to deny.
You can't just play LoL like it's DotA, you'll get stomped and it just doesn't work that way.
So yeah, just install War3, play DotA1, get used to playing without summoner spells or runes or ability power or any of that LoL stuff.
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On November 01 2011 02:36 Kupon3ss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 02:19 Ack1027 wrote:
I've been over it a lot of times and most people who've never played competitively don't agree.
1. The terrain is different. This effects team fight and skirmish dynamics, juking, warding.
2. If you rate attack animations in dota on a scale from 1-10 [ with 10 being the easiest/best ] then almost all of hon's attack animations are 7 or higher. At the most basic level, if you give crystal maiden to the hands of a pro like 13abyknight or ZSMJ they will rape a pubber even if they are playing viper. But if a pro plays cm vs another pro, they have very little chance of overcoming, or if they do its a great accomplishment. This permeates into everything, farming, denying, tower denying, last hitting, to timing kills based of DOTs like doom or shadow strike.
3. In hon you have way more options for movespeed. I don't play hon but I have friends who play it and they've told me there's been shit like AOE phase boots and things that make you run faster as long as you keep running. This means you don't have to worry as much about positioning. Some of the highest level play you can see from pro supports is how they position themselves or bait their carries/initiators in team fights.
4. Hon items are different. There's no equivalent for things like Nome's wisdom in dota. Just by being different it will lead to different gameplay. And as kipsate mentioned, dota has urn and smoke of deceit.
5. Hon's hero design is much different from Icefrog. Lots of hon heroes come into the game with stuns/slows/aoe/range/movespeed buff/silence all on one hero. <-- not altogether of course, but some combination of these things.
Basically even if you ignore all those points, just ask yourself...if hon and dota are the same in gameplay, then do you only play hon because it's better graphics and matchmaking? No, hon does a lot of things differently. Look at someone like Chu, among the best to ever play Hon. He was a low-to-mid pro in dota. If you asked him if the games were the same, he'd probably say no. He's looking forward to dota 2 for a reason.
Dota is icefrog's creation. Dota2 is also under his creative leadership. Hon is not. League of legends is not. Just by this fact alone you should be able to see you will benefit from playing dota 1, the game icefrog is essentially drawing from to create dota 2. This is pretty accurate, tho the differences aren't that big, the attack animation thing is a definite difference, but the attack animation change comes far more from the engine change than any deliberate change in stats and is probably closer to that of Dota2 The boots thing is really just the choice for supports, in Hon supports can be reasonably useful with 800 gold (+100spd while not in combat) while DotA supports tend to go for mana boots for speed and teamfights, this allows for supports in Hon to be "poorer" while remaining effective, and drastically changes things like trilanes and roaming, whereas the aoe phase is really just a modified Jango Chu was a lot better at Dota than you give him credit for, he was part of the Korean national team and genuinely gave Chinese teams trouble in several Asian tourneys in 08 and 09, which is at least on par with top Western Teams of the same time HoN essentially copied dota at its conception and was for a long time under advice from icefrog, however, once icefrog got picked up for dota2 by valve, they've diverged significant from DotA the only hero with "stuns/slows/aoe/range/movespeed buff/silence" is invoker ;p
Dota 2 attack animations are design to be identical to DOTA 1's. They seem pretty close in feel between dota2 and dota1 outside of a few heroes, but it is still early beta. DOTA's balance depends to a large degree on attack animations.
Also I agree with Ack, DOTA is Icefrogs creation. If you ever played Guinsoos DOTA you would know it is a far cry from modern DOTA. The Guinsoo heroes were either very bland: a ton of stun+passive heroes, or completely broken(old stealth assassin, Ignus Fatuus). Granted Guinsoo did fix a few of the old heroes right before he disappeared, but it was Icefrog who turned a casual map to an esport.
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On November 01 2011 10:00 mrgerry wrote:
Little off topic but I been getting together a group of mates I've met through LoL over the months and have been getting together a group to do dota inhouses. As of right now, it's about 12 of us playing through garena. So this is an open invite to anyone else interested, just send me a PM and I'll add you through steam and try to get some games going. So far we haven't had a full ten on so I can't say how well they have gone yet but in theory it seems like this will be a nicer transition then just jumping into pubbing and having 0 fun while ruining games for the other nine people.
And on topic: My initial issues I had transitioning were getting used to having my hero deselected, adjusting to the shop system, and in general dealing with being a complete noob all over again and having no idea what the heroes I'm laning against do.
tl diamond bar in tl teamspeak (left side near bottom of page) usually as that amount. though we've been a core dota community on tl for a while (over a year) skill levels range from low to high (mostly low).
though we've mostly been playing lod dota these days we would play more ih if we could get them
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United States1508 Posts
At one point I'd love to join in, but at my current skill level I would just be ruining games. Give me a few months to become less useless ^_^
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On November 01 2011 10:46 mrgerry wrote:
At one point I'd love to join in, but at my current skill level I would just be ruining games. Give me a few months to become less useless ^_^
dota 2 will be open beta by then
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I'd like to start doing IH's sometime*. TL Diamond Bar has a password?
*gotta stave off this no-beta cabin fever
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On November 01 2011 11:06 myopia wrote:
I'd like to start doing IH's sometime*. TL Diamond Bar has a password?
*gotta stave off this no-beta cabin fever
double click anybodys name thats not muted (preferrably me) and ask for password. say rabidch posted in some thread on tl and you want to play
we arent playing now though
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I am also wanting to start dota since I suck at RTS but am good at Dota style games, however I am unsure how dota will catch on in the west and that is a big factor in a game for me.
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On November 01 2011 14:29 esotericc wrote:
I am also wanting to start dota since I suck at RTS but am good at Dota style games, however I am unsure how dota will catch on in the west and that is a big factor in a game for me.
Yes, dota isn't big round here at the moment, I don't think it has much chance really, maybe only in China.
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On November 01 2011 10:51 rabidch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 10:46 mrgerry wrote:
At one point I'd love to join in, but at my current skill level I would just be ruining games. Give me a few months to become less useless ^_^ dota 2 will be open beta by then
yea right
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I played LoL before.
First of all: play defensive...dont be greedy.
always remeber: YOU DONT HAVE FLASH! :D
read some guides on playdota...how to play the game etc. easiest is if you start with support heroes.
the best you can do as noob is not to feed imo.
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1. What bad habits do LoL players participate in that I should actively be trying to break? (Simply "playing LoL" doesn't count )
2. I've heard consumables are a bigger part of DotA and its sequel/spinoffs than LoL. Should I continue to use them in LoL even if I'm the only player on my team doing so?
3. Is it worth my time to dig up my old copy of Warcraft III and download whatever I need for the current version of DotA instead of playing LoL?
Speaking as a former "pro" DotA player this is my take.
1. In my experience LoL players tend not to focus so much on the dynamic of the game, when to push and when to sacrifice everything to save a tower or a raxx. Generally speaking, thinking outside the "Creepkills > Gold > Items > Win" mentality, is alot more required in DotA than in HoN and LoL - in my opinion.
2. I don't know if you should use them in LoL if they are no good, would seem rather weird, as long as you keep it in mind, I'm sure you'll start using them automatically when you start DotA.
3. Definitely yes. Playing DotA will always be the best way to learn. HoN and LoL might give you alot of the mechanics you need for dota, but in my experience the mindset is a bit off in both games.
Just my two cents.
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Thanks, everyone. I deeply appreciate all the advice.
I actually need to pick up the WC3 BattleChest. I have the CE of RoC but my copies of TFT are illegitimate. That'll be a couple weeks down the road. So I'll probably do more LoL in the meantime, keeping the following things in mind.
1) Practice last hitting. Make it an active thing to click on a creep or enemy even if I'm just auto-attacking.
2) Use Recall as little as possible, as if I have TP scrolls and not a free magic home base button.
3) Communicate which lane I'm moving to/holding/pushing, even if I'm alone in said lane, because that's the kind of thing I think DotA players will be looking for.
4) Focus on my own gameplay, timing, etc instead of looking for teammates or champions to blame. Calling an enemy champ OP is a lot easier than being honest about botching a skill execution.
I figure if I do these things, even if they're not entirely necessary for LoL, will give me some basic bare-bones habits that will translate well into DotA.
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Your points 1), 2) and 4) won't translate to DotA, so you don't need to "practice" them. It's basically a waste of time imo.
- lasthitting is just harder in DotA, if you are a pro- lasthitter in LoL you will still lose many many many kills/denies in DotA(I guess it's never bad to improve your lasthitting skills but you shouldn't expect to be a good lasthitter in DotA just because you are successful in LoL)
- not using recall won't benefit your future DotA gameplay but will just weaken your current LoL gameplay. TP's in DotA are rarely used to "go heal and buy" but to initate/defend ganks. That's a skill that you won't be able to learn by not using recall
- focussing on timings also won't help you with DotA as the timings/ gameplay there is again different
The only valid point is to improve your communication which is always good in every teamgame. And still, communication in LoL differs from DotA.
If you aren't able to play DotA right now, just enjoy your LoL games without focussing on improving skills you need for another game!
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Be a lot more careful in DotA, and especially HoN. You can blink and die before your eyelids are shut.
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Try to give you my take as I have actually played DotA for years and just moved to LoL 2 months ago
As everyone pointed out already last hit and deny is going to be something you need to adjust to because when creeps are low you can expect your opponents to kill it as well. This becomes a serious mind game as well between you and your opponent on when to last hit the creep and likely when you start off, there will be games where it can be extremely discouraging if the other guy just denies the majority of your creeps.Also most DotA hero's don't have a spell made for farming creeps (not sure if its a good example but Q for Annie IMO is made for farming early on and to build charges for your passive)
Casters in LoL can use ability power to scale up, DotA casters spells generally gets weaker by late game. This is where having unique utility items in DotA for casters make up for their weakness. Items like force staff, ghost scepter, euls, sheep stick, orchid, blink (LoL's flash but lower cd and costs 2150) allows casters to stay alive or start a initiation on a team battle .By late game they can be the difference maker in you casting your second or third round of spell which can be the last CC that lets your carry kill theirs.
There usually isn't a tank role in DotA, hero's can be built tanky with items but usually there won't be a specific tank that is supposed to tank all the damage. Supports exist in DotA, in LoL supports are generally at bottom to assist the AD carry, in DotA they are usually the ones that will roam around and gank as well as supporting their carry. The jungle role is more limited as the amount of hero's that can jungle in DotA effectively is lower than the junglers in LoL.
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One thing for sure, if you want to be good at DotA 2, you should really just be playing DotA. LoL and HoN aren't going to get you anything at all like the good practice or knowledge that DotA 1 will.
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Well there's some good advice in this thread despite the weird bickering. I'll try to give my 2 cents.
1. Map awareness is super important. Developing a good sense of where enemy heroes are likely to be takes time. You see nobody on the map and you're farming alone away from a tower? Watch out.
2. Learn all the heroes and items, play dota 1 or read some guides. It's good to know which heroes you can escape from, which heroes you can take down solo, which heroes can sneak up on you, etc.
3. Timing of spells is important. You can't just spam everything. It's best to coordinate disables/slows with your allies so that the disable durations match up. Also mana management is important. Learn which heroes synergize well together as well.
4. Learn the mechanics of the game. Dota 1 was limited by the WC3 engine and many of the spells/items are altered versions of existing spells. Stuff like "which spells go through BKB" and "which hero orbs cannot be used with certain items" are pretty important to learn as well.
5. Don't get discouraged. You are probably going to feed a lot but learn from your mistakes and you'll have a lot of fun.
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6. Execution means everything. Lots of people know what to do and how to do it. Unfortunately too many people cannot execute when they need to. If there's a certain skill you have trouble mastering, for example Pudge hooks or shift-queuing epicenter-dagger, play a solo map and practice them again and again.
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On October 31 2011 20:21 BlueInkAlchemist wrote:I may get smacked around for asking this, but it's a question that's been nagging me ever since I started puttering around in LoL. So here goes! The opening threads in this section make it clear that there's a huge difference between League of Legends and Defense of the Ancients 2. I must admit, I never played the original DotA, and LoL is my first real exposure to the ARTS style of game. That said, I like it, and I'm curious about DotA2 and Blizzard DotA. I've been trying to play more standard LoL than Dominion so I can learn more about lane control, "real" item choices and decision-making when enemies come into range. My questions are the following: 1. What bad habits do LoL players participate in that I should actively be trying to break? (Simply "playing LoL" doesn't count ) 2. I've heard consumables are a bigger part of DotA and its sequel/spinoffs than LoL. Should I continue to use them in LoL even if I'm the only player on my team doing so? 3. Is it worth my time to dig up my old copy of Warcraft III and download whatever I need for the current version of DotA instead of playing LoL? Thanks in advance, folks. Here's hoping I don't get smacked with the banhammer!
1. In LoL many heroes have abilities that let them farm easily and push the lane, and abilities have a lower mana cost, so you often see players spamming these abilities. I don't know what level you play at, but this is common for me even in mid Elo. In DotA this is a very bad habit because pushing the lane leads to more dangerous ganks. Ganks are possible in LoL of course, but way less frequent. It's usually preferable to keep the creeps near your tower unless you can get a nice push out of it.
2&3. If you're really interested in DotA2, you should start with DotA1 now, or HoN if you prefer. HoN has many of the same heroes, but you'll have to relearn the animations and stuff, so really DotA1 is the best. DotA1 also has a very nice AI map, way better AI than LoL, you can train against that for awhile to get used to the heroes. From playing LoL for a long time, I know LoL makes you much worse at DotA, last-hitting is much harder and timing is more important in general.
But, there are things you can take from your LoL experience: initiating, positioning, paying attention to the minimap and timing when to go for Roshan (Baron) and jungle farm. All of these things will carry over regardless of the game you play.
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On November 02 2011 05:29 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 20:21 BlueInkAlchemist wrote:I may get smacked around for asking this, but it's a question that's been nagging me ever since I started puttering around in LoL. So here goes! The opening threads in this section make it clear that there's a huge difference between League of Legends and Defense of the Ancients 2. I must admit, I never played the original DotA, and LoL is my first real exposure to the ARTS style of game. That said, I like it, and I'm curious about DotA2 and Blizzard DotA. I've been trying to play more standard LoL than Dominion so I can learn more about lane control, "real" item choices and decision-making when enemies come into range. My questions are the following: 1. What bad habits do LoL players participate in that I should actively be trying to break? (Simply "playing LoL" doesn't count ) 2. I've heard consumables are a bigger part of DotA and its sequel/spinoffs than LoL. Should I continue to use them in LoL even if I'm the only player on my team doing so? 3. Is it worth my time to dig up my old copy of Warcraft III and download whatever I need for the current version of DotA instead of playing LoL? Thanks in advance, folks. Here's hoping I don't get smacked with the banhammer! 1. In LoL many heroes have abilities that let them farm easily and push the lane, and abilities have a lower mana cost, so you often see players spamming these abilities. I don't know what level you play at, but this is common for me even in mid Elo. In DotA this is a very bad habit because pushing the lane leads to more dangerous ganks. Ganks are possible in LoL of course, but way less frequent. It's usually preferable to keep the creeps near your tower unless you can get a nice push out of it. 2&3. If you're really interested in DotA2, you should start with DotA1 now, or HoN if you prefer. HoN has many of the same heroes, but you'll have to relearn the animations and stuff, so really DotA1 is the best. DotA1 also has a very nice AI map, way better AI than LoL, you can train against that for awhile to get used to the heroes. From playing LoL for a long time, I know LoL makes you much worse at DotA, last-hitting is much harder and timing is more important in general. But, there are things you can take from your LoL experience: initiating, positioning, paying attention to the minimap and timing when to go for Roshan (Baron) and jungle farm. All of these things will carry over regardless of the game you play.
pushing the lane is not always bad, but generally if you dont mostly understand what you're doing during laning, don't push the lane
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Long story short : You won't learn much useful for Dota2 by playing LoL.
I would also recommend playing HoN, it's extremely similar to DotA and far easier to get into (400mb download, free to play, matchmaking, customizable hotkeys, reconnecting etc). Getting into Dota1 right now could be quite a nightmare as a new player, pub games could be pretty horrible.
The transition from HoN to Dota2 will be easy since you're moving into a slightly slower paced game with less ganking (that might sound negative but I do actually think DotA is better). The differences are minor things like animations and speeds which you'll get used to in no time. Personally I haven't played a single game of DotA after the HoN beta started and I know I'll be able to instantly jump in and perform in game 1 of Dota2.
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I'm a LoL player myself and personally I have started playing Dota on the ICCUP server, to prepare for Dota 2 (Horrible noob)
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On November 02 2011 05:50 asdfman wrote:
Long story short : You won't learn much useful for Dota2 by playing LoL.
I would also recommend playing HoN, it's extremely similar to DotA and far easier to get into (400mb download, free to play, matchmaking, customizable hotkeys, reconnecting etc). Getting into Dota1 right now could be quite a nightmare as a new player, pub games could be pretty horrible.
The transition from HoN to Dota2 will be easy since you're moving into a slightly slower paced game with less ganking (that might sound negative but I do actually think DotA is better). The differences are minor things like animations and speeds which you'll get used to in no time. Personally I haven't played a single game of DotA after the HoN beta started and I know I'll be able to instantly jump in and perform in game 1 of Dota2.
Game 1, probably not. You'll probably be shocked when three invis hero pops up behind you at level 1, if you're playing against good players. But it won't take long to learn the differences, that's true.
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