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Diablo 1+2 dev criticizes D3, new devs respond - Page 12

Forum Index > Diablo 3
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oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-31 13:48:31
August 31 2012 13:47 GMT
#221
On August 23 2012 10:00 Blazinghand wrote:
Jay Wilson wrote a reply on the bnet forums that should be read before further comment imo

link: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6398870250#1

Show nested quote +
Jay Wilson wrote:
blur

this is just damage control. and the way emotions work is that you may feel one way at a certain moment, then very soon after you realize you fucked up and turn into a different person altogether. this apology doesn't erase the lack of class in that group's culture at all. if you notice the way after wilson made his comment, the rest of the developers were all eager to upvote it.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Andre
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Slovenia3523 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-01 15:19:25
September 01 2012 15:13 GMT
#222
On August 31 2012 22:32 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 24 2012 02:02 Andr3 wrote:
On August 23 2012 20:22 paralleluniverse wrote:
On August 23 2012 09:04 Gearuza wrote:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6398870250#1

Jay's actual response

As many of you probably know, I recently made a comment on Facebook about Dave Brevik. I want to make it clear that I am very sorry for what I said. I have higher expectations for myself than to express my feelings in such a rash way and disrespect a fellow developer like Dave, someone who deserves to be treated with greater respect.

What I said was expressed out of anger, and in defense of my team and the game. People can say what they want about me, but I don't take lightly when they disparage the commitment and passion of the Diablo III team. Dave is awesome. In Diablo and Diablo II, he made two of the games that have most affected me as a developer. I respect his vision for Diablo, but just like he said in his interview, the Diablo III team must drive a vision for the game that is true to us. We believe in Diablo and have stuck by it through years of hard development to make it a reality.

The foundation of the Diablo team was built from the remnants of Blizzard North: Our lead programmer, who built the basis of the Diablo III engine while at Blizzard North; our lead tech artist, who drove much of the combat visuals, FX, and skill direction of our classes and is one of the most avid Diablo II players you can find; our lead concept artist, who helped establish the core look of the game; Wyatt Cheng, our senior technical game designer, who writes many of our blogs and works tirelessly on the live game. All these people and many others made the commitment to Diablo even after Blizzard North shut down. It was hard for me to see their contributions be diminished by someone they worked alongside, and even harder for me not to try to jump to their defense. I only wish I'd done so in a more professional manner.

Joining the Diablo team was a dream come true for me. In my house, the name Diablo was always spoken in hushed tones. It meant late nights that turned into early mornings, moments of pure adrenaline and pure joy. It meant countless conversations, debates, scouring websites for good builds, and more than one or two sick days. When Diablo II was released, I took a week off work and sent my wife out of state... and she was pregnant at the time! I played Diablo II with my dad during one of the most difficult times of his life, and the experience brought me closer to him, and I hope helped him through it. I joined the Diablo team because the idea of a world without more Diablo seemed like a pretty crappy world to me. I wasn't sure if I'd be good enough. I'm still not sure. But I felt I had to try.

Regardless of how I've done, my team has been more than good enough, and I'm proud of the game we made together. We believe it's a great game. But Diablo III has flaws. It is not perfect. Sales mean nothing if the game doesn’t live on in all of our hearts, and standing by our games is what Blizzard does. Patch 1.0.4 is a step in the right direction, but we have no illusions that our work is done.

Playing Diablo III needs to be a rewarding experience. The new legendaries are a big step in the right direction, as are tweaks to item drop rates. But I'm not convinced that we've gone far enough. If you don't have that great feeling of a good drop being right around the corner -- and the burst of excitement when it finally arrives -- then we haven't done our jobs right. Out of our concern to make sure that Diablo III would have longevity, we were overly cautious about how we handled item drops and affixes. If 1.0.4 hasn’t fixed that, you can be sure we'll continue to address it.

Part of the problem, however, is not just item drops, but the variety of things to do within the game. Many of you have stated that there needs to be more to the game than just the item hunt, and we agree completely. The Paragon system is a step in the right direction, giving meta-progress for your time in the game, but it does little to address the variety of activities you can do while playing. I don't think there’s a silver-bullet solution to this problem, but I do think we can make this aspect of the game better, and as such we're planning more than just PvP for the next major patch. Not trying to be coy, but we're still firming things up and will talk about this as soon as we can.

Difficulty has been a constant source of division when discussing the game. Some players believe Diablo has never been about crushing challenges, but more about efficiency and farming. Some players want a game that tests them to their limits. Neither player is wrong. As it stands, Diablo III simply does not provide the tools to allow players to scale the game challenge to something appropriate for them. We set Inferno as the high watermark and took a one-size-fits-all approach to game challenge. Later in the development of Diablo II, the 'players 8' command -- which let people set monster difficulty -- was added to address this issue, and we're considering something similar for the next major Diablo III patch to allow players to make up their own minds about how hard or how easy is right for them.

The Auction House has also proven to be a big challenge. It adds a lot of power for players to trade and acquire items. Getting a great Monk drop that you can trade for better gear for your Wizard is obviously a great benefit, but it does come with a downside. The Auction House can short circuit the natural pace of item drops, making the game feel less rewarding for some players. This is a problem we recognize. At this point we're not sure of the exact way to fix it, but we’re discussing it constantly, and we believe it's a problem we can overcome.

While these are some of the major issues with Diablo III, they aren't the only things we're looking at. On a daily basis we ask ourselves if the classes are satisfying to play, if rares and champions are fun to fight, if they’re tuned well relative to normal monsters. Can we make further improvements to social elements of the game? How can items be even better?

We made Diablo III because we believe in the Diablo games. We think the gameplay is awesome, the world is compelling, and it's the game we all wanted to play. Because we believe in it, we'll continue to stand by it and make it better. We are committed to making Diablo III the best Diablo game to date, and we hope you'll continue to help us do just that.

Saying that, I'd like to apologize to all of you, the players in our community. You deserve better than my reaction to Dave's comments. You deserve more honest communication about the game and what we're doing to make it a more awesome experience for us all. We care about Diablo very much, and appreciate your passion for it. Without you, we wouldn't be able to do this, and for that I can't thank you enough.

Skillful backpedaling.

Essentially, he's now saying: "Dave was right, beyond basic combat, we had no idea what we were doing when we made this game. We only just realized this since launch and the game sucks, and we are now trying very hard to fix what we screwed up."

While the game has a shitton of flaws that just make you puke, there's one thing no other hackslash has atm(or other games compared to blizzard's creations), and that's smooth controls/feel of the game. I played quite some PoE, and it just shines in many things compared to Diablo...but the controls ? damn them, worst thing is the movement and how you're locked into animations, they don't feel fluid at all like D3 does or SC2 for example. TL1/2 are great in this regard, but they still don't have the same feel that just makes you play in fluid motion. Dungeon Siege can't even be mentioned here because it's kind of "turn-based". TQ has slight delays in animation as well, especially when casting spells. It's hard to find a hack&slash that's more responsive than D3.

MMOs have the same problem compared to WoW(and wows engine is like 9-10 years old, if you count the design time)

Jay's post smells of damage control, but I'm sure he meant most of what he said. Sometimes we do stupid things in anger.

D3 will continue to get better, which is sad because it made a bad impression on the majority of people. Perhaps with the release of their expansion people will get re-interested?


So it's the same thing it has been with SC2? People who got disappointed (I am one of them, obviously) by what game they bought on launch just left and never came back, not even after trying it out again after some of the bigger patches. And I won't buy HotS for sure, as I know I'm just gonna get ripped off for one more shitty campaign and some useless units, which probably will break the game once more.
I just hate to see the 2 franchises I always loved the most going to shit, because nobody is speaking up against the philosophy Blizzard has adopted after they made the really big bucks with WoW. Nowadays we only get unfinished stuff on launch day and still unpolished stuff after years. You think D3 will get better? Of course, if anything else, it would be a huge joke on the design team. But will it get that much better, to at least live up a little to the experiences people got with D1+D2? Taking SC2 as an example, I think that's close to impossible.
And did you read about what he said, where the guys responsible for all the positive things you listed in your post come from? That's correct sir, Blizzard North. Who's the loser now, Jay Wilson?
I just wonder, who's gonna be the Browder/Wilson for the next WarCraft game?

As far as Diablo goes, there was Condor as well..what about them? What about Blizzard influencing so much of the design that Blizzard North wanted to do...

There's still about 1/4 people from North employed at Blizzard, there's some old interviews from Diablo 3 about it even. Blizzard did change, for worse or better they are what they are...most the people complaining are quite nostalgic anyway.

If you don't like what Blizzard is doing move on, there's plenty of indie developers who stick it to oldschool. Sure your favorite game franchises might've gotten "screwed" but you can still play WC2/3 SC1/D2.

I personally dislike Blizzard's choices mostly as well, but they're understandable..gaming is less and less becoming a niche. You don't make games nowadays for a select few hardcore fans like in the old days.
You must gather your party before venturing forth.
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
September 01 2012 15:35 GMT
#223
-Lil Jay you got to apologize now or you'll be grounded for 2 weeks!
-Yes mom
-And try to sound selfless
-Ok mom

*Apology letter*
*People believe it legitimate*
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
Lysenko
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Iceland2128 Posts
September 01 2012 22:55 GMT
#224
The problem for the D3 developers who posted those reactions wasn't that Brevik criticized the game, it was him describing how "happy" he was that "the people [left] and the game [changed]" and there was all this complaining. On the receiving end of that interview, I'd probably say what Jay said, too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
September 02 2012 03:45 GMT
#225
On September 02 2012 07:55 Lysenko wrote:
The problem for the D3 developers who posted those reactions wasn't that Brevik criticized the game, it was him describing how "happy" he was that "the people [left] and the game [changed]" and there was all this complaining. On the receiving end of that interview, I'd probably say what Jay said, too.

That's childish.
Breivik only said that he was happy in that it confirmed that his previous team had something special.

If you really think you'd react like that then I feel bad for you.
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
fawkz
Profile Joined August 2012
Bangladesh36 Posts
September 02 2012 04:30 GMT
#226
blizzard wants your money. they do whats necessary to get it.
Lysenko
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Iceland2128 Posts
September 02 2012 04:33 GMT
#227
On September 02 2012 12:45 Djzapz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 02 2012 07:55 Lysenko wrote:
The problem for the D3 developers who posted those reactions wasn't that Brevik criticized the game, it was him describing how "happy" he was that "the people [left] and the game [changed]" and there was all this complaining. On the receiving end of that interview, I'd probably say what Jay said, too.

That's childish.
Breivik only said that he was happy in that it confirmed that his previous team had something special.

If you really think you'd react like that then I feel bad for you.


Actually, he didn't qualify his statement at all. He just said that he was happy how things had worked out for D3. It was a very ugly thing to say.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
writer22816
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States5775 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-02 05:10:16
September 02 2012 05:09 GMT
#228
Anybody read the responses on the bnet thread? Some of them make me want to puke.

I don't think that the apology was necessary but very classy of you. Thanks Jay!!


...
8/4/12 never forget, never forgive.
flashimba
Profile Joined May 2011
225 Posts
September 02 2012 06:29 GMT
#229
This Jay Wilson fellow makes Dustin Browder seem like a hero.
fuzzy_panda
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
New Zealand1681 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-02 06:56:00
September 02 2012 06:52 GMT
#230
On September 02 2012 13:33 Lysenko wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 02 2012 12:45 Djzapz wrote:
On September 02 2012 07:55 Lysenko wrote:
The problem for the D3 developers who posted those reactions wasn't that Brevik criticized the game, it was him describing how "happy" he was that "the people [left] and the game [changed]" and there was all this complaining. On the receiving end of that interview, I'd probably say what Jay said, too.

That's childish.
Breivik only said that he was happy in that it confirmed that his previous team had something special.

If you really think you'd react like that then I feel bad for you.


Actually, he didn't qualify his statement at all. He just said that he was happy how things had worked out for D3. It was a very ugly thing to say.


Don't put words into his mouth. It makes you look stupid. Brevik actually said he was sad that people didn't enjoy D3 as much because it is a love and passion. At the same time, he was happy (i guess with a kind of pride) to know that his team that made D2 was special and mattered in the creation of that unique franchise. He never said he was happy at how D3 turned out. He also wasn't mocking the D3 development team. He just really appreciates the fact that the original D2 team mattered. It wasn't an ugly thing to say at all. He was very PC and respectable about it. "Fuck that loser" is a much uglier thing to say in response to legitimate criticism.
Lysenko
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Iceland2128 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-02 07:01:39
September 02 2012 06:58 GMT
#231
On September 02 2012 15:52 fuzzy_panda wrote:
Don't put words into his mouth. It makes you look stupid. Brevik actually said he was sad that people didn't enjoy D3 as much because it is a love and passion. At the same time, he was happy (i guess with a kind of pride) to know that his team that made D2 was special and mattered in the creation of that unique franchise. He never said he was happy at how D3 turned out. He also wasn't mocking the D3 development team. He just really appreciates the fact that the original D2 team mattered. It wasn't an ugly thing to say at all. He was very PC and respectable about it. "Fuck that loser" is a much uglier thing to say in response to legitimate criticism.


Read the interview. Your characterization of what he said just isn't accurate.

IncGamers: As you created Diablo, how do you feel about it? Do you feel a little let down that the legacy has kind of been mashed up?



...
I am also a little happy, which I hate to say, it shows that the people that were involved in Diablo really did matter, and so I am happy that it has come to light that how talented that group was and how unique and special that group was. I am hoping that, as this happens very often in the industry, you see it with Call of Duty and things like that , when the people leave the game changes and it shows how critical people are in this industry.


There's no other way to read that than that he was saying he was happy that D3's release went badly. Of course the developers are going to take it personally. It's a horrible thing to say, and of course they're going to react emotionally to it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
fuzzy_panda
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
New Zealand1681 Posts
September 02 2012 07:09 GMT
#232
On September 02 2012 15:58 Lysenko wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 02 2012 15:52 fuzzy_panda wrote:
Don't put words into his mouth. It makes you look stupid. Brevik actually said he was sad that people didn't enjoy D3 as much because it is a love and passion. At the same time, he was happy (i guess with a kind of pride) to know that his team that made D2 was special and mattered in the creation of that unique franchise. He never said he was happy at how D3 turned out. He also wasn't mocking the D3 development team. He just really appreciates the fact that the original D2 team mattered. It wasn't an ugly thing to say at all. He was very PC and respectable about it. "Fuck that loser" is a much uglier thing to say in response to legitimate criticism.


Read the interview. Your characterization of what he said just isn't accurate.

Show nested quote +
IncGamers: As you created Diablo, how do you feel about it? Do you feel a little let down that the legacy has kind of been mashed up?


Show nested quote +

...
I am also a little happy, which I hate to say, it shows that the people that were involved in Diablo really did matter, and so I am happy that it has come to light that how talented that group was and how unique and special that group was. I am hoping that, as this happens very often in the industry, you see it with Call of Duty and things like that , when the people leave the game changes and it shows how critical people are in this industry.


There's no other way to read that than that he was saying he was happy that D3's release went badly. Of course the developers are going to take it personally. It's a horrible thing to say, and of course they're going to react emotionally to it.


Yes please ignore the part where he said he was sad about the release as there was so much passion for it from the fans.
Lysenko
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Iceland2128 Posts
September 02 2012 07:12 GMT
#233
If the guy says something crappy, it doesn't mitigate it to say that he's ambivalent about feeling that way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
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