|
On May 24 2012 00:28 NotSorry wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 00:24 nuclear_nub wrote:Thank you, finally someone understands that a RNG system with a massive pool of mods can't produce the cream of the crop items in just a week, the people who say they already have the best items must think they're playing Final Fantasy (ie, I'm at endgame, so I must have best items). I'm glad somebody gets it. Community: Diablo 3 is too casual! /cry Blizz: Arright, we'll make a super-ultra hard mode after Hell. Community: I can't steamroll super-ultra hard mode after farming for three days! /cry Blizz: /facepalm I'm sadden some people still don't get it, the pool of mods is tiny and capped, so without a magic hot fix there isn't going to be new super items you guys keep thinking there is. I'll break it down for you. An item can get a number 1-10(just an example, didn't slots have different amounts of mods, many of which overlap doing the same thing), it can get 6 of these numbers (the 6 picked is a random number as the cap changes from each item slot), if each of them in a 10 we call it a perfect these are the max stats possible in the game, in less than a week several items with 6x 9-10s have already been found and an improvement from a mostly 9-10s to a pure 10s is tiny, like literally less than 200dmg/1000hp which will change nothing when your 50k hp character dies in 1-2hits.
also i get a strong feeling they dont have a great RNG in play
however i really cant be arsed trying to prove it.
|
It's not about being perfectly geared; it's about being reasonably geared in the 7-9 range where you should be able to handle Inferno with some skill as a melee/non FA Wizard/etc.
I disagree with this. To survive in Act 2, you should need 10s from Act 1 in every slot - because it's only taken people a few days to get 7-9, and it should be months before anyone is doing reasonably well in late-game Inferno. The fact that the auction house exists means that they can set the bar for gear checks a lot higher.
|
On May 24 2012 03:19 nuclear_nub wrote:Show nested quote +It's not about being perfectly geared; it's about being reasonably geared in the 7-9 range where you should be able to handle Inferno with some skill as a melee/non FA Wizard/etc. I disagree with this. To survive in Act 2, you should need 10s from Act 1 in every slot - because it's only taken people a few days to get 7-9, and it should be months before anyone is doing reasonably well in late-game Inferno. The fact that the auction house exists means that they can set the bar for gear checks a lot higher.
I have better than anything Act 1 is allowed to drop and cant step foot in Act 2. I also have Act 4 equips, still cant set foot in Act 2.
|
United States47024 Posts
On May 24 2012 03:19 nuclear_nub wrote:Show nested quote +It's not about being perfectly geared; it's about being reasonably geared in the 7-9 range where you should be able to handle Inferno with some skill as a melee/non FA Wizard/etc. I disagree with this. To survive in Act 2, you should need 10s from Act 1 in every slot - because it's only taken people a few days to get 7-9, and it should be months before anyone is doing reasonably well in late-game Inferno. The fact that the auction house exists means that they can set the bar for gear checks a lot higher.
Except people already have access to A4 Inferno, which means they can suicide run A4/Whimsyshire chests for gear that is A4 quality.
And that gear is STILL not good enough for A2 Inferno.
|
On May 24 2012 02:16 Assault_1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 01:00 superstartran wrote:On May 24 2012 00:56 TestSubject893 wrote:On May 24 2012 00:28 NotSorry wrote:On May 24 2012 00:24 nuclear_nub wrote:Thank you, finally someone understands that a RNG system with a massive pool of mods can't produce the cream of the crop items in just a week, the people who say they already have the best items must think they're playing Final Fantasy (ie, I'm at endgame, so I must have best items). I'm glad somebody gets it. Community: Diablo 3 is too casual! /cry Blizz: Arright, we'll make a super-ultra hard mode after Hell. Community: I can't steamroll super-ultra hard mode after farming for three days! /cry Blizz: /facepalm I'm sadden some people still don't get it, the pool of mods is tiny and capped, so without a magic hot fix there isn't going to be new super items you guys keep thinking there is. I'll break it down for you. An item can get a number 1-10(just an example, didn't slots have different amounts of mods, many of which overlap doing the same thing), it can get 6 of these numbers (the 6 picked is a random number as the cap changes from each item slot), if each of them in a 10 we call it a perfect these are the max stats possible in the game, in less than a week several items with 6x 9-10s have already been found and an improvement from a mostly 9-10s to a pure 10s is tiny, like literally less than 200dmg/1000hp which will change nothing when your 50k hp character dies in 1-2hits. Even in your example, where you only want your values to be in the top 10% of their range, that's a 1/1,000,000 rare drops that will get it (0.1^6). On top of that you don't consider that you have to roll the best affix as well, not just the best value. If we put these odds at even 20% per affix (I think its less), you'll see that less than 1 in every 15,000,000,000 items fits your criteria. I find it hard to believe that over 100 billion inferno rares have dropped per person who claims to be perfectly geared. It's not about being perfectly geared; it's about being reasonably geared in the 7-9 range where you should be able to handle Inferno with some skill as a melee/non FA Wizard/etc. Alot of us have farmed the Act 2 chest, the Act 4 boss for strong magics/occasional decent Legendaries, etc. and we still struggle with our survivability. Not to mention any of the rares we encounter when running through Act 4 to Diablo at the Silver Spire. Within that 7-9 range you SHOULD be able to reasonably do Inferno without massive difficulty, and yet we are still dying left and right without utilizing a "cheese" build. The game is POORLY designed at Inferno. It's clearly obvious no one even played past Act 1 because if they did, they would have understood that it's pretty obvious that the game's difficulty was ramped up in a way that players cannot possibly deal with unless they are extremely overfarmed or utilizing mechanics that basically break the game. Whoever was their balancing/play testing team should be fired, because it's clearly obvious that Inferno is simply impossible to solo as a melee class, and it's already near impossible for a Wizard/WD. Only the DH has any reasonable chance of doing it, and the DH relies completely on luck of spawns/evasion half the time. alot of people seem to think wizard > demon hunter, why u think dh is best?
Wizard is garbage without Diamond/FA. DH is now by far the best even with nerfed SS.
On May 24 2012 03:19 nuclear_nub wrote:Show nested quote +It's not about being perfectly geared; it's about being reasonably geared in the 7-9 range where you should be able to handle Inferno with some skill as a melee/non FA Wizard/etc. I disagree with this. To survive in Act 2, you should need 10s from Act 1 in every slot - because it's only taken people a few days to get 7-9, and it should be months before anyone is doing reasonably well in late-game Inferno. The fact that the auction house exists means that they can set the bar for gear checks a lot higher.
Even with very high end gear from Act 2-4 you can barely do Act 2/3. Inferno is a joke; it's tedious, not hard. Bad design.
|
On May 24 2012 03:27 superstartran wrote:
Even with very high end gear from Act 2-4 you can barely do Act 2/3. Inferno is a joke; it's tedious, not hard. Bad design.
I think that is my concern long term for the game. Inferno is where long term players will spend most of their time, just like level cap in an MMO is where most of your time is spent, but it doesn't seem particularly fun so far. The difficulty appears to be created in the laziest way possible, which is simply to bump the damage levels up to the point that you die in seconds when you run into certain mobs. Anyone can design a game that is hard by doing that.
Now perhaps eventually gear will make that moot, but I guess going into the game I presumed that reaching level max would take a similar amount of time as reaching level max in D2, so for the average player it would be a reasonably long time in Hell before they would even qualify for playing in inferno and the loot and upgrades during that stretch would be meaningful and have a relatively long term period of usefulness before you out grow them. But you reach max level playing thru each difficulty once and it doesn't take nearly as much time to do it as reaching max lvl in D2. So most of your time is then going to be spent in inferno banging your head against the wall until you can get the gear (probably off the AH) to advance.
So far, it appears to be more about gear checks than skill checks, and all those checks are centered around random rare/elite mobs, more so than the bosses. I'm still mostly enjoying myself and have other classes to try out, but I have a hard time imagining this style of end game play holding my attention as long as D2 did.
|
On May 24 2012 04:04 karazax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 03:27 superstartran wrote:
Even with very high end gear from Act 2-4 you can barely do Act 2/3. Inferno is a joke; it's tedious, not hard. Bad design.
I think that is my concern long term for the game. Inferno is where long term players will spend most of their time, just like level cap in an MMO is where most of your time is spent, but it doesn't seem particularly fun so far. The difficulty appears to be created in the laziest way possible, which is simply to bump the damage levels up to the point that you die in seconds when you run into certain mobs. Anyone can design a game that is hard by doing that. Now perhaps eventually gear will make that moot, but I guess going into the game I presumed that reaching level max would take a similar amount of time as reaching level max in D2, so for the average player it would be a reasonably long time in Hell before they would even qualify for playing in inferno and the loot and upgrades during that stretch would be meaningful and have a relatively long term period of usefulness before you out grow them. But you reach max level playing thru each difficulty once and it doesn't take nearly as much time to do it as reaching max lvl in D2. So most of your time is then going to be spent in inferno banging your head against the wall until you can get the gear (probably off the AH) to advance. So far, it appears to be more about gear checks than skill checks, and all those checks are centered around random rare/elite mobs, more so than the bosses. I'm still mostly enjoying myself and have other classes to try out, but I have a hard time imagining this style of end game play holding my attention as long as D2 did.
What they could do is, and what probably is also reasonable (they have the RMAH, so it's in their best interest to keep people playing) is to add new affixes to elites in Inferno mode that are fun but difficult in design. Some hard combinations that pop up can really be fun, for example the frost/mortar combination I really like to play against because you can avoid it but it's still tricky with the danger of being frosted in place and killed for sure.
|
On May 24 2012 00:24 nuclear_nub wrote:Show nested quote +Thank you, finally someone understands that a RNG system with a massive pool of mods can't produce the cream of the crop items in just a week, the people who say they already have the best items must think they're playing Final Fantasy (ie, I'm at endgame, so I must have best items). I'm glad somebody gets it. Community: Diablo 3 is too casual! /cry Blizz: Arright, we'll make a super-ultra hard mode after Hell. Community: I can't steamroll super-ultra hard mode after farming for three days! /cry Blizz: /facepalm
No, people that are not playing DH and Wizard whine because, how DH and Wizard can beat Inferno in a less than a week and others esp Barb can't even get past Act 2? Assume that noone right now has the best gear, so why a Wizard or DH with out best gear can beat Inferno while others can't?
Just go watch some stream with Wizard solo ACT 4(before the FA/DS nerf), farming non-stop and watch a Barb stream he can't even farm ACT properly is sad 
Oh, the answer is Blizzard failed, they left some game breaking build for Wizard and DH in the game without even testing it.
Inferno's difficult level is fine. It just needs some tweaking. If noone can beat it by now, there wouldn't be so much whine, because people expected that. But seeing someone roll a Wizard and beat Inferno in 4 days while you play a Barb and farming non-stop, buying shits nonstop from AH for nearly 2 weeks and can't even get past ACT 2.
All in all, Blizzard fucked up hard and now they are fixing it. Hope that they get their shit together.
|
On May 24 2012 02:55 MrTortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 00:28 NotSorry wrote:On May 24 2012 00:24 nuclear_nub wrote:Thank you, finally someone understands that a RNG system with a massive pool of mods can't produce the cream of the crop items in just a week, the people who say they already have the best items must think they're playing Final Fantasy (ie, I'm at endgame, so I must have best items). I'm glad somebody gets it. Community: Diablo 3 is too casual! /cry Blizz: Arright, we'll make a super-ultra hard mode after Hell. Community: I can't steamroll super-ultra hard mode after farming for three days! /cry Blizz: /facepalm I'm sadden some people still don't get it, the pool of mods is tiny and capped, so without a magic hot fix there isn't going to be new super items you guys keep thinking there is. I'll break it down for you. An item can get a number 1-10(just an example, didn't slots have different amounts of mods, many of which overlap doing the same thing), it can get 6 of these numbers (the 6 picked is a random number as the cap changes from each item slot), if each of them in a 10 we call it a perfect these are the max stats possible in the game, in less than a week several items with 6x 9-10s have already been found and an improvement from a mostly 9-10s to a pure 10s is tiny, like literally less than 200dmg/1000hp which will change nothing when your 50k hp character dies in 1-2hits. also i get a strong feeling they dont have a great RNG in play however i really cant be arsed trying to prove it.
Lol what the hell are you talking about. There are tonnes of free (pseudo) random number generators that work just fine, and they don't need anything neeaaarly this complex. http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_49_0/doc/html/boost_random.html
You can hate on Blizzard all you want, but let's not pretend that exactly zero of their programmers have a comp-sci degree.
|
On May 24 2012 04:24 Caphe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 00:24 nuclear_nub wrote:Thank you, finally someone understands that a RNG system with a massive pool of mods can't produce the cream of the crop items in just a week, the people who say they already have the best items must think they're playing Final Fantasy (ie, I'm at endgame, so I must have best items). I'm glad somebody gets it. Community: Diablo 3 is too casual! /cry Blizz: Arright, we'll make a super-ultra hard mode after Hell. Community: I can't steamroll super-ultra hard mode after farming for three days! /cry Blizz: /facepalm No, people that are not playing DH and Wizard whine because, how DH and Wizard can beat Inferno in a less than a week and others esp Barb can't even get past Act 2? Assume that noone right now has the best gear, so why a Wizard or DH with out best gear can beat Inferno while others can't? Just go watch some stream with Wizard solo ACT 4(before the FA/DS nerf), farming non-stop and watch a Barb stream he can't even farm ACT properly is sad Oh, the answer is Blizzard failed, they left some game breaking build for Wizard and DH in the game without even testing it. Inferno's difficult level is fine. It just needs some tweaking. If noone can beat it by now, there wouldn't be so much whine, because people expected that. But seeing someone roll a Wizard and beat Inferno in 4 days while you play a Barb and farming non-stop, buying shits nonstop from AH for nearly 2 weeks and can't even get past ACT 2. All in all, Blizzard fucked up hard and now they are fixing it. Hope that they get their shit together.
There not farming there skipping all the champion mobs and fighting bosses not champion packs. That doesn't mean there killing the champion mobs also. Even most bosses in later difficulty are hard for them. To fully clear it is going to take at least a few weeks. All the other class are having just as much trouble as the barb.
|
On May 24 2012 04:24 Caphe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 00:24 nuclear_nub wrote:Thank you, finally someone understands that a RNG system with a massive pool of mods can't produce the cream of the crop items in just a week, the people who say they already have the best items must think they're playing Final Fantasy (ie, I'm at endgame, so I must have best items). I'm glad somebody gets it. Community: Diablo 3 is too casual! /cry Blizz: Arright, we'll make a super-ultra hard mode after Hell. Community: I can't steamroll super-ultra hard mode after farming for three days! /cry Blizz: /facepalm No, people that are not playing DH and Wizard whine because, how DH and Wizard can beat Inferno in a less than a week and others esp Barb can't even get past Act 2? Assume that noone right now has the best gear, so why a Wizard or DH with out best gear can beat Inferno while others can't? Just go watch some stream with Wizard solo ACT 4(before the FA/DS nerf), farming non-stop and watch a Barb stream he can't even farm ACT properly is sad Oh, the answer is Blizzard failed, they left some game breaking build for Wizard and DH in the game without even testing it. Inferno's difficult level is fine. It just needs some tweaking. If noone can beat it by now, there wouldn't be so much whine, because people expected that. But seeing someone roll a Wizard and beat Inferno in 4 days while you play a Barb and farming non-stop, buying shits nonstop from AH for nearly 2 weeks and can't even get past ACT 2. All in all, Blizzard fucked up hard and now they are fixing it. Hope that they get their shit together.
No game really is balanced at launch, there will be balance issues, even grave ones that the developers didn't see, that their internal testers didn't spot. It happens and i'ts just up to Blizzard now to balance it in a correct way. Which is the trickey part.
|
Well it seems like I'll pretty much just level all 5 classes to max and quit playing... Inferno just isn't as fun as I had hoped it would be.
Getting 1 shot as a barb in Act 1 wearing Act 3 - 4 gear off AH is just lame.
|
On May 24 2012 04:28 worldsnap wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 02:55 MrTortoise wrote:On May 24 2012 00:28 NotSorry wrote:On May 24 2012 00:24 nuclear_nub wrote:Thank you, finally someone understands that a RNG system with a massive pool of mods can't produce the cream of the crop items in just a week, the people who say they already have the best items must think they're playing Final Fantasy (ie, I'm at endgame, so I must have best items). I'm glad somebody gets it. Community: Diablo 3 is too casual! /cry Blizz: Arright, we'll make a super-ultra hard mode after Hell. Community: I can't steamroll super-ultra hard mode after farming for three days! /cry Blizz: /facepalm I'm sadden some people still don't get it, the pool of mods is tiny and capped, so without a magic hot fix there isn't going to be new super items you guys keep thinking there is. I'll break it down for you. An item can get a number 1-10(just an example, didn't slots have different amounts of mods, many of which overlap doing the same thing), it can get 6 of these numbers (the 6 picked is a random number as the cap changes from each item slot), if each of them in a 10 we call it a perfect these are the max stats possible in the game, in less than a week several items with 6x 9-10s have already been found and an improvement from a mostly 9-10s to a pure 10s is tiny, like literally less than 200dmg/1000hp which will change nothing when your 50k hp character dies in 1-2hits. also i get a strong feeling they dont have a great RNG in play however i really cant be arsed trying to prove it. Lol what the hell are you talking about. There are tonnes of free (pseudo) random number generators that work just fine, and they don't need anything neeaaarly this complex. http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_49_0/doc/html/boost_random.htmlYou can hate on Blizzard all you want, but let's not pretend that exactly zero of their programmers have a comp-sci degree.
Umm most of the best programmers i know never got a comp sci degree as they are interested in solving real world problems for real people. If you want to deal with n !=np or mathematical problems then sure its great.
Programming is one of those disciplines where you take 3-4 years experience over a comp sci degree and add 10k onto their salary. I am deadly serious about that and is a big part of hiring strategy. People think programming is hard when it isn't.
Real world programming is NOTHING like a comp sci degree. Sure it helps occasionally on those few occasions you actually have to hit the metal but the vast majority of programming problems are actually process problems of how you work with code over time and with multiple people.
My reason for saying the rng seems bland at best is that noone has really demonstrated something that is outside of a fairly narrow band of attributes - if there was a rng and it was capable of soemthing really wild there is no evidence of it yet. Granted its only a week but you would expect some people to have 1 set of stats on an item that are extraordinary. Maybe it is because of caps ... maybe its due to a rng that is just to normal.
|
People need to remember that Inferno is for the long haul and not something that is going to be cleared in a few days. Need to start figuring out ways to survive. I have experimenting and trying to figure what is needed. I am getting a pretty good idea what is needed to survive and I am getting very close to being able to start Act II clearing.
|
On May 24 2012 06:35 MrTortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 04:28 worldsnap wrote:On May 24 2012 02:55 MrTortoise wrote:On May 24 2012 00:28 NotSorry wrote:On May 24 2012 00:24 nuclear_nub wrote:Thank you, finally someone understands that a RNG system with a massive pool of mods can't produce the cream of the crop items in just a week, the people who say they already have the best items must think they're playing Final Fantasy (ie, I'm at endgame, so I must have best items). I'm glad somebody gets it. Community: Diablo 3 is too casual! /cry Blizz: Arright, we'll make a super-ultra hard mode after Hell. Community: I can't steamroll super-ultra hard mode after farming for three days! /cry Blizz: /facepalm I'm sadden some people still don't get it, the pool of mods is tiny and capped, so without a magic hot fix there isn't going to be new super items you guys keep thinking there is. I'll break it down for you. An item can get a number 1-10(just an example, didn't slots have different amounts of mods, many of which overlap doing the same thing), it can get 6 of these numbers (the 6 picked is a random number as the cap changes from each item slot), if each of them in a 10 we call it a perfect these are the max stats possible in the game, in less than a week several items with 6x 9-10s have already been found and an improvement from a mostly 9-10s to a pure 10s is tiny, like literally less than 200dmg/1000hp which will change nothing when your 50k hp character dies in 1-2hits. also i get a strong feeling they dont have a great RNG in play however i really cant be arsed trying to prove it. Lol what the hell are you talking about. There are tonnes of free (pseudo) random number generators that work just fine, and they don't need anything neeaaarly this complex. http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_49_0/doc/html/boost_random.htmlYou can hate on Blizzard all you want, but let's not pretend that exactly zero of their programmers have a comp-sci degree. Umm most of the best programmers i know never got a comp sci degree as they are interested in solving real world problems for real people. If you want to deal with n !=np or mathematical problems then sure its great. Programming is one of those disciplines where you take 3-4 years experience over a comp sci degree and add 10k onto their salary. I am deadly serious about that and is a big part of hiring strategy. People think programming is hard when it isn't. Real world programming is NOTHING like a comp sci degree. Sure it helps occasionally on those few occasions you actually have to hit the metal but the vast majority of programming problems are actually process problems of how you work with code over time and with multiple people. My reason for saying the rng seems bland at best is that noone has really demonstrated something that is outside of a fairly narrow band of attributes - if there was a rng and it was capable of soemthing really wild there is no evidence of it yet. Granted its only a week but you would expect some people to have 1 set of stats on an item that are extraordinary. Maybe it is because of caps ... maybe its due to a rng that is just to normal.
Have there been any attempts at finding the itemization budget of X rare item? Perhaps each item has a fixed budget and it rolls the stats, then rolls the value of each stat to fill the budget. Just some brainstorming
|
After the smokescreen change, DH is going to be a hell of a lot harder to do inferno now. It would be nice to see less complaints about them.
|
On May 24 2012 06:35 MrTortoise wrote:
Umm most of the best programmers i know never got a comp sci degree as they are interested in solving real world problems for real people. If you want to deal with n !=np or mathematical problems then sure its great.
you don't get a comp sci degree to learn how to program. a book can teach you that in a day if you're interested in syntax. it's the study of semantics that hold any value. there's reason why the discipline is called computer science
Programming is one of those disciplines where you take 3-4 years experience over a comp sci degree and add 10k onto their salary. I am deadly serious about that and is a big part of hiring strategy. People think programming is hard when it isn't.
again you're generalizing on what constitutes as being "able to program". sure anyone can dish out code but no respectable company is going to ask you to write a trivial loop or if/else statement in their interview. no one cares about syntax.
My reason for saying the rng seems bland at best is that noone has really demonstrated something that is outside of a fairly narrow band of attributes - if there was a rng and it was capable of soemthing really wild there is no evidence of it yet. Granted its only a week but you would expect some people to have 1 set of stats on an item that are extraordinary. Maybe it is because of caps ... maybe its due to a rng that is just to normal.
of course it's not your typical rng. most likely it's a weighted rng based on some distribution. might be a little farfetched but there might be some learning involved based on AH saturation of items of specific specs and their prices.
|
So many people don't understand how to item&skill build their chars. That's the first step. The second is learning how to micro so you don't die. Come on people this is a bw and sc2 forum; the most complex and difficult games out there. You can figure out d3 inferno.
|
On May 24 2012 07:15 BrauL wrote:
So many people don't understand how to item&skill build their chars. That's the first step. The second is learning how to micro so you don't die. Come on people this is a bw and sc2 forum; the most complex and difficult games out there. You can figure out d3 inferno.
Problem is that it's gear-based rather than skill-based
|
On May 24 2012 07:15 BrauL wrote:
So many people don't understand how to item&skill build their chars. That's the first step. The second is learning how to micro so you don't die. Come on people this is a bw and sc2 forum; the most complex and difficult games out there. You can figure out d3 inferno.
you can't compare the notions of micro btwn d3 and a RTS like SC2. it's like trying to micro a fungaled marine against a swarm of ultralisks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
