|
On April 26 2012 05:13 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 04:47 Kenpark wrote:I'm not convinced by this "it's single player and therefore easy" argument.
I'm expecting 4 player coop to be the way all the first kills happen, and I'm expecting solo to be the hardest way to play.
Since
- every class has group wide buffs (most of which look like they'd be included in most builds)
- every class has monster debuffs (again, many of which look like they'd be included in most builds)
I mean the monk alone with the runed Conviction aura increases the damage output of every member of the group by 24%, plus another 15% if he has the passive that buffs the party when he does his heal spell. Likewise, he can debuff every monster to reduce all damage by 25%.
Now I'm extrapolating a bit since I don't know the other classes, but if every class can buff the damage output of each player by 25%, and debuff the monster damage by 25%, that means that with 4 players, every player is doing 244% of normal damage and taking just 32% of normal damage.
I.e., your 4 players are as strong as about 10 individual players, and as tough as about 12 individual players.
Unless monster damage and HP scale exponentially with players (which they don't appear to do), coop is going to be a LOT easier than solo. And honestly, it was the same way in D2. You just argumented that the game cant be really hard for 4 players, if coop play is optional. There is even more like pets or players tanking for ranged classes. More AOE slows etc. In Diablo 2 everything was incredible easy if you had tanks that can survive. The only real hard part would be, if WD pets or barbs and monks couldnt tank in inferno for at least a few seconds. But if they make it that hard, melee classes would be way weaker, cause well ye you have to tank to do damage. Remember damage doesnt scale, the more players are in the game. So how is a barb player with monk aura and maybe heals from a wd, slows from a sorc etc not be able to tank inferno, if a barb or monk is supposed to solo the content ? When you solo you got a companion which gives you buffs, heals you, tanks a few hits and uses crowd controls and there is zero problem with him dying. People always seem to forget that...
Blizzard has said the game as it stands now is catered towards soloable content. Groups will make you probably kill faster but level a lot slower. So once people start hitting the level cap, you will see more people grouping for bosses and such.
Edit: But then again they've also said that the game doesn't encourage boss farming so I guess the main point of partying will be to clear content faster. Just that won't mean much though since magic find works better in solo and so does leveling.
|
Adding people also makes the mobs themselves stronger, So a co-op might not be as easy as soloing Inferno.
|
Adding people also makes the mobs themselves stronger, So a co-op might not be as easy as soloing Inferno.
Only hp wise afaik. Its the same like in dia 2 it seems.
|
On April 26 2012 05:53 Blasterion wrote:
Adding people also makes the mobs themselves stronger, So a co-op might not be as easy as soloing Inferno.
It's only by 75% though for person right? Combine that with the fact that several classes can give eachother buffs and theres no way Co-Op is going to be harder except maybe for a few bosses.
|
On April 26 2012 06:25 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 05:53 Blasterion wrote:
Adding people also makes the mobs themselves stronger, So a co-op might not be as easy as soloing Inferno. It's only by 75% though for person right? Combine that with the fact that several classes can give eachother buffs and theres no way Co-Op is going to be harder except maybe for a few bosses.
Who knows maybe Blizzard is hiding this detail and it goes 75% on Normal, maybe 100% on Nightmare, 125% on Hell, and 150% on Inferno which would be amusing but probably not the case.
|
|
|
Oh I played Diablo 2 a lot and never knew or noticed that. Well thats good news.
|
On April 25 2012 21:32 skyR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 17:32 Medrea wrote:On April 24 2012 23:42 skyR wrote:
Ulduar was insanely overtuned, I don't know what you're talking about. I thought it was perfectly tuned for all skill levels and ambitions. Ulduar is still considered to be the most balanced dungeon in WoW, and one the highest experiences in MMO history. But I am probably flavoring it with my own experiences. + Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34863088/records%201.JPG) ![[image loading]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34863088/records2.JPG) ![[image loading]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34863088/records3.JPG) I have like 7 more. Too bad wowmeter kept overwriting my world records instead of storing them because on Freya I beat my own world record like 7 times and Thorim like 3 times and no one beat my original record for like 8 weeks. i think at one time they did but no one wants to see my name 6 times on every list. So you could say I had a blast. Blizzard obviously has the potential to make games difficult and balanced but wrangling it out of them takes time and effort and the stars only align once every 5 years or so. It's no doubt that Ulduar was one of the most amazing raids ever created but it's hard to deny that some of the encounters weren't overtuned since they got overly nerfed before kills started coming in regularly. Firefighter, 2min Hodir, Council come to mind.
I would disagree since before they ever got nerfed they got buffed. Mimiron was uptuned before anyone killed it. Hodir timer was shortened (used to be longer than 2min IIRC 2.5?). Then extended when Ensidia had to cheat it to be beatable >.> 2 minutes was really stupid though. That hard mode in general was stupid.
Council was also buffed. You couldn't teleport out of the dungeon to avoid the death leach. So i find it kinda funny you mention those encounters because before they were ever nerfed, they were buffed first :p
|
http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/jay-wilson-taiwan-press-conference
Jay Wilson: “When we’re testing the highest difficulty level, we don’t force testers to level-up from scratch each time. Their chars receive randomized equipment of 0.5~1 lvl under the boss’s level. After 20 attempts the boss was still undefeated. We hope the most difficult bosses will be really, really hard to beat, as we know from experience never, NEVER underestimate our players. We set the difficulty based on how our most skilled staff felt to be adequate. Then we MULTIPLY THIS BY 2 upon release”
(P.S. He further explains that “times by 2″ not only refers to mob damage output & HP, but also to the extent that players will need to “apply combat skills depth”.)
|
Lol Blizzard sure is confident that they overtuned Inferno or that there are so many RNG elements that makes it impossible to beat it by pure skill.
Hi Jay, quick question: is Inferno mode designed to be beatable by an HC character? Not really, but please consider that as a challenge. 
|
On April 26 2012 19:12 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 21:32 skyR wrote:On April 25 2012 17:32 Medrea wrote:On April 24 2012 23:42 skyR wrote:
Ulduar was insanely overtuned, I don't know what you're talking about. I thought it was perfectly tuned for all skill levels and ambitions. Ulduar is still considered to be the most balanced dungeon in WoW, and one the highest experiences in MMO history. But I am probably flavoring it with my own experiences. + Show Spoiler +I have like 7 more. Too bad wowmeter kept overwriting my world records instead of storing them because on Freya I beat my own world record like 7 times and Thorim like 3 times and no one beat my original record for like 8 weeks. i think at one time they did but no one wants to see my name 6 times on every list. So you could say I had a blast. Blizzard obviously has the potential to make games difficult and balanced but wrangling it out of them takes time and effort and the stars only align once every 5 years or so. It's no doubt that Ulduar was one of the most amazing raids ever created but it's hard to deny that some of the encounters weren't overtuned since they got overly nerfed before kills started coming in regularly. Firefighter, 2min Hodir, Council come to mind. I would disagree since before they ever got nerfed they got buffed. Mimiron was uptuned before anyone killed it. Hodir timer was shortened (used to be longer than 2min IIRC 2.5?). Then extended when Ensidia had to cheat it to be beatable >.> 2 minutes was really stupid though. That hard mode in general was stupid. Council was also buffed. You couldn't teleport out of the dungeon to avoid the death leach. So i find it kinda funny you mention those encounters because before they were ever nerfed, they were buffed first :p
2min hodir was actually not achievable barring spectacularly good RNG on your NPCs behaviors (sometimes they would do nothing for 15~ seconds, other times instantly hand out buffs)
Ulduar was insanely overtuned, I don't know what you're talking about.
Ulduar was arguably one of the BEST tuned (at releast) raid instances blizzard has ever produced. Barring Yogg+0 and Hodir, everything else was very achievable.
|
The thing about co-op is that even though monsters have more HP, the players are going to have abilities that can help each other. Auras that boost the damage and defense of the entire party, heals that heal everyone, etc.
Co-op will definitely be easier than solo.
I'll be sticking to solo regardless, I'd rather play at my own pace, pausing and alt-tabbing every now and then to watch an SC2 stream etc.
|
On April 30 2012 12:24 hkf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 19:12 Medrea wrote:On April 25 2012 21:32 skyR wrote:On April 25 2012 17:32 Medrea wrote:On April 24 2012 23:42 skyR wrote:
Ulduar was insanely overtuned, I don't know what you're talking about. I thought it was perfectly tuned for all skill levels and ambitions. Ulduar is still considered to be the most balanced dungeon in WoW, and one the highest experiences in MMO history. But I am probably flavoring it with my own experiences. + Show Spoiler +I have like 7 more. Too bad wowmeter kept overwriting my world records instead of storing them because on Freya I beat my own world record like 7 times and Thorim like 3 times and no one beat my original record for like 8 weeks. i think at one time they did but no one wants to see my name 6 times on every list. So you could say I had a blast. Blizzard obviously has the potential to make games difficult and balanced but wrangling it out of them takes time and effort and the stars only align once every 5 years or so. It's no doubt that Ulduar was one of the most amazing raids ever created but it's hard to deny that some of the encounters weren't overtuned since they got overly nerfed before kills started coming in regularly. Firefighter, 2min Hodir, Council come to mind. I would disagree since before they ever got nerfed they got buffed. Mimiron was uptuned before anyone killed it. Hodir timer was shortened (used to be longer than 2min IIRC 2.5?). Then extended when Ensidia had to cheat it to be beatable >.> 2 minutes was really stupid though. That hard mode in general was stupid. Council was also buffed. You couldn't teleport out of the dungeon to avoid the death leach. So i find it kinda funny you mention those encounters because before they were ever nerfed, they were buffed first :p 2min hodir was actually not achievable barring spectacularly good RNG on your NPCs behaviors (sometimes they would do nothing for 15~ seconds, other times instantly hand out buffs)
Ulduar was arguably one of the BEST tuned (at releast) raid instances blizzard has ever produced. Barring Yogg+0 and Hodir, everything else was very achievable.
did you ever do 40 man BWL/AQ40/Naxx?
|
On April 27 2012 07:10 bLah. wrote:http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/jay-wilson-taiwan-press-conferenceShow nested quote +Jay Wilson: “When we’re testing the highest difficulty level, we don’t force testers to level-up from scratch each time. Their chars receive randomized equipment of 0.5~1 lvl under the boss’s level. After 20 attempts the boss was still undefeated. We hope the most difficult bosses will be really, really hard to beat, as we know from experience never, NEVER underestimate our players. We set the difficulty based on how our most skilled staff felt to be adequate. Then we MULTIPLY THIS BY 2 upon release”
(P.S. He further explains that “times by 2″ not only refers to mob damage output & HP, but also to the extent that players will need to “apply combat skills depth”.)
That sounds about right.
Still, I kind of miss the atmosphere that diablo1 created for instance, where you'd lose all your equipment if you died. I wish they did more of this kind of a hardcore enviroment, but I understand that this could indulge into abandoning your friends, and acting like a prick because you could do actual harm to your allies.
|
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OLSNm.jpg)
According to Jay Wilson, it will be pretty damn hard. Sure, there are probably better gamers out there than Blizzard's testers, but I would imagine they have been testing the game for more than a few weeks/months already and they still haven't beaten Inferno. So it should take the most hardcore Diablo players at least a little while to clear all 4 difficulties legitimately (potential exploits and bugs excluded).
|
i like how people say the beta was extremely easy, but if you ran into a teleporter pack of scavengers early on as a DH or a wizard.. you were pretty much fucked if you didn't have the right gear.. no way to kite or even attempt to slow them down and they have downright uber ass HP/dmg.. i suspect the troubles will be amplified in later difficulties as well. although the circumstances are rare in which a mob with certain affixes would spawn that would be considered lethal to you in the normal difficulties.. i think it should be a tell sign of whats to come and the arguments for the game being catered to just casuals a farce.
|
I thought the Beta was Easy = > Medium => Easy. Since the OPEN Beta Weekend I though they game was alot easier than before. No idea whats up with that.
Ulduar was arguably one of the BEST tuned (at releast) raid instances blizzard has ever produced. Barring Yogg+0 and Hodir, everything else was very achievable.
----
did you ever do 40 man BWL/AQ40/Naxx?
You can't compare 25 vs 40. Ulduar was by far the best raid in WoW all time. The real hardmodes where you activate them in or before the fight were so awesome. Freya with the trees! Kill all trees = EZ-Moade, Kill 2-Medium, Kill None-Hardmode!
BWL,AQ40 were fun, but the encounters weren't that fun like in ulduar. And Naxx40 was not much fun at all! You needed a guild with like 60+ players with T2+ Gear. It was just too hard to find 40 players with gear who can play and had a high attendance.
btw who cares WoW. Diablo 3 won't be that hard. The game is made for all the Casuals who still play WoW. Inferno will be completed in under a week, I bet! Maybe exploit/bug, maybe just complete freaks who abuse a Party-combo (2 DH, 2 WD
sounds imba).
And I bet there will be exploits, where you can farm endless loot or something oh boy!
|
On May 01 2012 05:34 KNICK wrote:According to Jay Wilson, it will be pretty damn hard. Sure, there are probably better gamers out there than Blizzard's testers, but I would imagine they have been testing the game for more than a few weeks/months already and they still haven't beaten Inferno. So it should take the most hardcore Diablo players at least a little while to clear all 4 difficulties legitimately (potential exploits and bugs excluded).
Like I said somewhere I really believe Blizzard will make it very difficult and maybe overtuned just so that they are able to keep their promises. At least for a legit play and no loopholes/exploit/bugs and other unwanted stuff.
I dont think the "world first" will take very long though, but for someone normal I'm willing to bet.
|
On May 01 2012 06:17 rezoacken wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 05:34 KNICK wrote:According to Jay Wilson, it will be pretty damn hard. Sure, there are probably better gamers out there than Blizzard's testers, but I would imagine they have been testing the game for more than a few weeks/months already and they still haven't beaten Inferno. So it should take the most hardcore Diablo players at least a little while to clear all 4 difficulties legitimately (potential exploits and bugs excluded). Like I said somewhere I really believe Blizzard will make it very difficult and maybe overtuned just so that they are able to keep their promises. At least for a legit play and no loopholes/exploit/bugs and other unwanted stuff. I dont think the "world first" will take very long though, but for someone normal I'm willing to bet.
Let's not forget that Blizzard's internal testers use premade characters with great gear already, stuff that would probably take hundreds of in game hours to actually farm.
Then, as Jay (or was it Bashiok?) says, they are going to just double the difficulty before launch, just to be on the safe side.
|
On May 01 2012 06:37 dmfg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 06:17 rezoacken wrote:On May 01 2012 05:34 KNICK wrote:According to Jay Wilson, it will be pretty damn hard. Sure, there are probably better gamers out there than Blizzard's testers, but I would imagine they have been testing the game for more than a few weeks/months already and they still haven't beaten Inferno. So it should take the most hardcore Diablo players at least a little while to clear all 4 difficulties legitimately (potential exploits and bugs excluded). Like I said somewhere I really believe Blizzard will make it very difficult and maybe overtuned just so that they are able to keep their promises. At least for a legit play and no loopholes/exploit/bugs and other unwanted stuff. I dont think the "world first" will take very long though, but for someone normal I'm willing to bet. Let's not forget that Blizzard's internal testers use premade characters with great gear already, stuff that would probably take hundreds of in game hours to actually farm. Then, as Jay (or was it Bashiok?) says, they are going to just double the difficulty before launch, just to be on the safe side.
No, no, no. That was just regarding the difficulty at the beginning of the game and was already applied in the beta.
Also why is one of you talking about "overtuned"? Like you know that one balance where it's perfectly good, in someones opinion.
All that matters, is that it is damn hard. That's what people are looking for. They're not saying it's impossible, just damn hard. If you don't wanna play it you needn't. Saying it's "overtuned" on purpose just to proof some stupid point isn't what they do of course. Then again in some peoples opinion you always gotta look at stuff from a bad point of view.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
