The third session of the OGN/MBC Game vs Blizzard was held today. Apparently, the case had a new set of judges, so the lawyers spent their time making their positions crystal clear. I'm also going to refer back to previous threads to draw some facts down. The next trial date is May 13th.
ThisIsGame summarized the positions for each of the sides as following. Please note that I will not be taking a literal translation but I'll try to interpret it since no matter how I try to make it literal it just comes out completely awkward.
MBC Game - OGN
- There is a need to confirm the boundaries of the protections offered by copyright law for the authors of the game. - Starcraft broadcasts are simply a performance of an audio/video merchandise - Blizzard has gained much from e-Sports up to now - Blizzard's demands are too much.
Blizzard - Gretech
- The intellectual property conflict surrounding Starcraft is different from other intellectual property conflicts - Starcraft broadcasts does not fall under performing an audio/video merchandise - The argument that this is for the growth of the e-Sports industry is a contradiction - OnGameNet had recognized the IP rights behind Starcraft and has made a license contract in the past.
Argument one: "We want to establish boundaries" vs "This is too different to draw similarities"
In normal intellectual property conflicts, the case is determined by drawing parallels to other similar cases to determine if there is a violation or not. Blizzard's argument is that the case is on a level beyond that, that there is a clear violation of intellectual property rights since the broadcasting stations simply rebroadcast the game screen in its entirety.
OGN/MBC takes a different angle, since they start by recognizing that Blizzard, as authors have the game, have rights over the game itself. They are however using this case as a precedence to see how much rights Blizzard has over broadcast materials, or derivative material.
Note that KeSPA/OGN/MBC has recognized Blizzard has some rights over broadcast materials in the past, since for most of the negotiations what was offered between Gretech/KeSPA was 50/50 ownership rights over the broadcasted materials. The negotiations broke down when Blizzard basically stated that if Blizzard does not get 100% ownership rights this negotiations would be impossible. So yes, this is a rather important point.
Argument two: "A broadcast of a merchandise on sale" vs "Nope"
Korea's intellectual property law has a clause in Article 29 that states that people are allowed to playing CDs and Videos that are for sale to an audience or to the masses as long as they are not reimbursed for that specific "performance". For example, a cafe is allowed to play CDs and DVDs that are privately owned, because they are simply playing the CDs and DVDs without being reimbursed.
The broadcasting stations argued that Starcraft broadcasts fall under this clause. The argument is that the Progamers are simply showing the games to the masses.
Blizzard's response to that is that because Starcraft's broadcast manufactures the game images, it does not fall under a performance of ingame video. Since there are also other elements included in the broadcasts such as commentating and Progamers, it is not just a performance of a purchasable merchandise. [Note: In this case do they really have 100% ownership rights of the game as they have claimed in the past?]
Argument three: "Blizzard gained a profit" vs "Broadcasts that violate IP rights and the Growth of industry is contradictory"
Article 28 of Korea's IP law states that intellectual property that are publicized can be used much like Fair Use clause. OGN and MBC argued that Starcraft Broadcasts can be interpreted as fair use under this article. Furthermore, they argued that even though Blizzard has gained a large profit through Korea's e-Sports market, Blizzard brought up violation of IP rights is because they have another purpose and that it is an abuse of their rights.
Blizzard responded to the argument stating that Starcraft Broadcasts are not for educational nor criticism, so they do not meet fair use. Furthermore, Blizzard argued against the idea that Starcraft Broadcasts promote and help the industry grow. The argument is that it is nonsense to violate IP rights to have the game market grow. Blizzard wondered what was the difference between MBC/OGN's argument and a movie channel playing movies without asking for permission.
Argument four: "Blizzard is demanding too much and interfering too much" vs "OGN has recognized rights before"
The last argument has to do with the negotiation attitudes. Both broadcasting stations have mentioned before that Blizzard is demanding things that goes beyond their rights. They pointed out that Blizzard has asked for not just for royalties, but also for fees to run tournaments and broadcasting fees. Furthermore, Blizzard wants to supervise broadcasts and even demands the right to audit the broadcasting stations.
Furthermore they pointed out that despite Blizzard giving exclusive rights to Gretech, Blizzard has both sued the broadcasting stations while also interfered with the negotiations and claimed that this was an abuse of their rights. OGN/MBC's lawyer questioned if Gretech did have an exclusive right to the game and ordered that only Gretech or Blizzard (and not both) be present in the courtroom and negotiations in the future.
Blizzard latched onto the fact that OGN has established an agreement before with Gretech for Korean Air OSL Season 2. Blizzard's lawyer argued that OGN, who recognized the rights then are not recognizing them now.
I find it difficult to believe that Blizzard actually "argued against the idea that Starcraft Broadcasts promote and help the industry grow." It doesn't make sense.
Also, just wondering, how come I can't see this article on the sidebar under Community News? Is it just me?
I really hate how they're using juvenile arguments like comparing esports to the movie/music industry. Esports is not an equivalent in any way. Broadcasting sc games is not like broadcasting movies and music without permission. If anything, letting people watch movies or listen to music without permission would be equivalent to letting people fully play sc for free. Letting people watch sc matches is like letting people look at other people listening to music, which is kinda dumb. Esports cannot be equated to conventional sports either because no conventional sport is copyrighted.
I'm fairly certain Blizzard is going to come out ahead in this. You can't broadcast copyrighted material without permisssion, even if it's just logos or trailers. For example, if I make a product and then that product shows up in a Justin Bieber music video, I am able to sue him, even if it's just product placement and not giving away the product. As the legal owner of the product, I have control over how the product is advertised or displayed in the media. Blizzard has full control over how their product is advertised and displayed on the media, regardless if they are profiting or not. I really think Blizzard should just let OGN/MBC do their thing since they're not getting harmed by it, but if they wish to sue, they are able to do it.
I think the outcome will probably be along the lines of OGN/MBC having to work with Blizz eventually but Blizz's demands being observed or at least required to be a lot more lenient than they were proposed to be last time.
A rather cursory look at how this is playing out, but definitely important. For the most part, it seems that MBC/OGN are putting up some rather bullshitty arguments (honestly, points 2 and 3 are just silly on MBC/OGN's side). The real battle in this case will end up being played out over 1 and 4, and those are the arguments that I'd like to closely track, especially 1, since the result of that will be important in how e-Sports cases will be handled in the future.
I really do hope that MBC/OGN win on those two points though. I would fear for the industry if they didn't.
If blizzard ever wanted total control over anyone who ran a tournament with sc / sc2 period that'd be daft and would in my opinion go beyond their IP rights. That'd be like the nike telling the NFL they had to pay them because the NFL player wore their shoes, when in fact it goes the other way around.
Can with sc2 blizzard shut down all tournaments they don't want to have happen, well yeah sure you have to play all games via battlenet.
Would that be smart? no not really...I think so long as blizzard is getting credit in the broadcasts for the game and the game is not being altered I don't see the issue...at least not until a station starts to make a profit...then I could see a reason for them to pay royalties on any profit made from broadcasting blizzards IP.
I've been taking some IP courses recently so this is very interesting. Based on the summaries alone, MBC/OGN's arguments aren't particularly convincing
Thanks as usual Milkis for keeping everybody updated <3
- The argument that this is for the growth of the e-Sports industry is a contradiction
Blizzard argued against the idea that Starcraft Broadcasts promote and help the industry grow.
That is such a joke. Without S.Korea having BW as a televized e-sport for a decade SC2 as an esport wouldn't be even half as big now, which translates into a lot of gained sales over the years.
I think if this was all about greed blizzard would be attacking other tournaments and shutting down online broadcasts of sc2. It seems that they are trying to ensure that there are no obstacles in place to control the growth for their esports scene.
If you guys remember Gretech/GOMTV used to run and broadcast very successful SCBW tournaments, but were basically shut down when Kespa/OGN/MBC banned players from attending these tournaments so their Esports monopoly in korea would remain intact.
It seems like a lot of what OGN/MBC is demanding is for the good of esports in korea, but we all know what they did in the past, so if I was blizzard I would probably take the same stance. Giving Kespa any controlling power over esports could be absolutely devastating.
On March 19 2011 04:28 Milkis wrote: The argument is that it is nonsense to violate IP rights to have the game market grow. Blizzard wondered what was the difference between MBC/OGN's argument and a movie channel playing movies without asking for permission.
How the hell can Blizzard actually be arguing this? Are their lawyers seriously that stupid? If I watch a movie on TV I'm going to be LESS inclined to go buy the movie; however if I see a game of BW on TV I'm going to be more likely to buy/play Broodwar. OGN/MBC are 100% completely correct in this case, and if TV broadcasts had never come along BW would never have sold as many copies as it did in Korea and elsewhere.
I don't really understand what power would give the court the ability to do anything about #4, if OGN has recognised the rights and licensed them then surely any negotiation about obtaining said rights are a private business negotiation and nothing to do with the court. I mean unless it brings up some bizarre monopoly law or some korea specific mercantilist policy based law, isn't it just a case of Blizzard selling a product and OGN can either buy it or not?
Also on #1 you or the article writer put this note:
Note that KeSPA/OGN/MBC has recognized Blizzard has some rights over broadcast materials in the past, since for most of the negotiations what was offered between Gretech/KeSPA was 50/50 ownership rights over the game. The negotiations broke down when Blizzard basically stated that if Blizzard does not get 100% ownership rights this negotiations would be impossible. So yes, this is a rather important point.
Are on absolutely sure that says ownership rights and not ownership of broadcasting rights? I mean it's remarkably absurd for KeSPA to have ever contested ownership rights of the game itself or even sought to obtain them.
This leads into the other note where I assume the square brackets indicate it's a translator's note and not in the original text:
Blizzard's response to that is that because Starcraft's broadcast manufactures the game images, it does not fall under a performance of ingame video. Since there are also other elements included in the broadcasts such as commentating and Progamers, it is not just a performance of a purchasable merchandise. [Note: In this case do they really have 100% ownership rights of the game as they have claimed in the past?]
I don't really see how ancillary support such as commentating would make any difference to the ownership of the game or broadcasting rights involved, the Blizzard argument is that by adding overlays and commentary and so on over their video they're co-opting it into their own product (which presumably OGN/MBC protect from piracy under the same set of laws that Blizzard are referencing/invoking), not that they're adding directly to the original product as to facilitate some kind of part ownership of broadcasting it (which is a kind of ridiculous argument but presumably is meant to validate it under a fair use law).
Yeah, theres no doubt OGN/MBC lost this. Blizzard made good points, but some are questionable and didn't even make sense. I don't know Korean so I can only speculate on the translation, but the gist of it is clear that Blizzard has a stronger case.
I would agree with the article on 'performing' but charging money for broadcasting someone's IP is a violation. Even someone that doesn't know much about this can understand that.
Blizzard responded to the argument stating that Starcraft Broadcasts are not for educational nor criticism, so they do not meet fair use. Furthermore, Blizzard argued against the idea that Starcraft Broadcasts promote and help the industry grow. The argument is that it is nonsense to violate IP rights to have the game market grow. Blizzard wondered what was the difference between MBC/OGN's argument and a movie channel playing movies without asking for permission.
Blizzard does not manufacture then entire entertainment process though. Without MBC/OGN, or the players, it would be the equivalent of streaming an AI vs AI battle with no casting. MBC/OGN supplies the casters, and the progamers work hard to create entertaining games.
It's almost as if Blizzard is treating MBC/OGN like its piracy. I mean sure, I highly doubt that the sales of SC:BW has been effected by televised BW in the last 8 years or so, but the fact that a game like Starcraft has been accepted as a form of entertainment, the mentality behind the fact that a progamer can be a respectable reputation, Blizzard owes MBC and OGN that much.
If they are arguing on the point of eSports, and trying to justify fair use- wouldn't it be prudent to draw the parallel between the American NFLPA and the governing organization, the NFL? The NFL authorizes the broadcast and it cannot be broadcast without written consent- thusly the VODs and such could have royalties, but it would still be fair- no? How do the broadcast stations on American TV deal with this? The NFL has its rules, they fine players for certain actions, but the NFL also sponsors community things like Play60 and the Boys & Girls Clubs, etc... I don't recall Blizz doing anything like that, so I suppose that parallel is shot. I suppose I don't understand how the NFL and MLB and whatever other sports organization can make this work, and Blizz-Gretech / OGN-MBC can't figure a way to make this work out... /RegionalIgnoranceJade
On March 19 2011 04:28 Milkis wrote: The argument is that it is nonsense to violate IP rights to have the game market grow. Blizzard wondered what was the difference between MBC/OGN's argument and a movie channel playing movies without asking for permission.
How the hell can Blizzard actually be arguing this? Are their lawyers seriously that stupid? If I watch a movie on TV I'm going to be LESS inclined to go buy the movie; however if I see a game of BW on TV I'm going to be more likely to buy/play Broodwar. OGN/MBC are 100% completely correct in this case, and if TV broadcasts had never come along BW would never have sold as many copies as it did in Korea and elsewhere.
Maybe, but when they're playing those movies they've already paid for the rights to broadcast them
Blizzard argued against the idea that Starcraft Broadcasts promote and help the industry grow.
That is such a joke. Without S.Korea having BW as a televized e-sport for a decade SC2 as an esport wouldn't be even half as big now, which translates into a lot of gained sales over the years.
I lol'd and yet there are still people who think a corporation is out to help esports and not themselves.
Really. The solution that would benefit most for BOTH is one that promoted sc2 and esports to the fullest extent. This fight is blinded by short-term profits. Both parties stand to gain so much more from the fact that esports has the potential to be the biggest audience market of all time.
On March 19 2011 09:18 Logginurkeyz wrote: If they are arguing on the point of eSports, and trying to justify fair use- wouldn't it be prudent to draw the parallel between the American NFLPA and the governing organization, the NFL? The NFL authorizes the broadcast and it cannot be broadcast without written consent- thusly the VODs and such could have royalties, but it would still be fair- no? How do the broadcast stations on American TV deal with this? ... /RegionalIgnoranceJade
The difference is that a company didn't CREATE the game of "football". For instance, the National Football League (NFL) used to be two separate leagues that merged in the 1960s and the Super Bowl was originally a "show match" between the winners of the two separate leagues. Also, there have been multiple new leagues that tried to break the NFL's monopoly over American football over the years. In the 1980s the USFL tried and failed, and in the early 2000s the XFL tried and failed. The NFL could not stop these leagues from forming because it does not own the game of football. Rather, these rival leagues folded (or were absorbed) because the NFL paid higher salaries that attracted better players, and subsequently more fans, sponsors, etc. The NFL then owns the content created from its games, but no one owns American football.
Blizzard owns the game, obviously they do not own the players, the commentary and the like.
But without the game there is absolutely nothing there, i am shocked that some people are actually trying to say Blizzard cant have full say in this, it is their own game.
OGN/MBC are 100% completely correct in this case, and if TV broadcasts had never come along BW would never have sold as many copies as it did in Korea and elsewhere.
Just because you promote something does NOT mean you have any rights over it, its just like making the argument that becuase Torrent sites put up movies to download, they should not be sued since some people go out and buy these movies later if they like them.
There is no argument to be had, Blizzard created and owns Brood War, there isent a single thing in the game that they do not have 100% control over. The fact that their own property has been used without full consent for almost a decade and forced to be involved in this case for their own property is pretty alarming.
I understand your alligience to Brood War and wanting it to go on here, most of us (if not all of us) want that, however you also have to think realistically and logically here.
I hope OGN/MBC just gives up this fight and pays what Blizzard/Gretech wants (it isn't so large that it is the end of the world), so that SC1 broadcasting can continue legally and SC2 broadcasting has a place to go.
On March 19 2011 09:02 moopie wrote: Thanks as usual Milkis for keeping everybody updated <3
- The argument that this is for the growth of the e-Sports industry is a contradiction
Blizzard argued against the idea that Starcraft Broadcasts promote and help the industry grow.
That is such a joke. Without S.Korea having BW as a televized e-sport for a decade SC2 as an esport wouldn't be even half as big now, which translates into a lot of gained sales over the years.
I lol'd and yet there are still people who think a corporation is out to help esports and not themselves.
I rofl'd. Who said KeSPA exist to help esports grow without gaining anything for themselves? But the fact that they have helped eSports grow bigger still stands. And Blizzard is basically saying that the success for BW in Korea has nothing to do with the people who promoted it and sponsored the prize pools. SUUUURE. This whole thing is so fking ugly, how can Blizzard be so damn greedy... They know that if it wasn't for BW, the SC2 scene and community would be bigger (therefore more money), so they will either try and milk BW more or completely shut it down. Both ways its bad for BW. KeSPA needs to win this.
On March 19 2011 10:11 dcemuser wrote: I hope OGN/MBC just gives up this fight and pays what Blizzard/Gretech wants (it isn't so large that it is the end of the world), so that SC1 broadcasting can continue legally and SC2 broadcasting has a place to go.
The problem with that is, it's not just about the money, as OGN was willing to pay already. It's more about the rights and how Blizzard wants 100% control, which is kind of ridiculous because under their rules, they would have control over teams and players.
On March 19 2011 10:11 dcemuser wrote: I hope OGN/MBC just gives up this fight and pays what Blizzard/Gretech wants (it isn't so large that it is the end of the world), so that SC1 broadcasting can continue legally and SC2 broadcasting has a place to go.
The problem with that is, it's not just about the money, as OGN was willing to pay already. It's more about the rights and how Blizzard wants 100% control, which is kind of ridiculous because under their rules, they would have control over teams and players.
how would they have control over teams and players? from what i recall blizzard demanded pretty hefty broadcasting license from ogn/mbc, and should they pay that, everything goes on as it always had. ogn/mbc were willing to pay, just not that much, and that's why they are in court now.
On March 19 2011 04:28 Milkis wrote: The argument is that it is nonsense to violate IP rights to have the game market grow. Blizzard wondered what was the difference between MBC/OGN's argument and a movie channel playing movies without asking for permission.
How the hell can Blizzard actually be arguing this? Are their lawyers seriously that stupid? If I watch a movie on TV I'm going to be LESS inclined to go buy the movie; however if I see a game of BW on TV I'm going to be more likely to buy/play Broodwar. OGN/MBC are 100% completely correct in this case, and if TV broadcasts had never come along BW would never have sold as many copies as it did in Korea and elsewhere.
Believe Blizzard was saying that violating IP rights hurts the game market and that they are breaking IP by broadcasting the game in the same way that you break them if you broadcast a movie.
If i read the OP correct, S.Korea is strange in the way that it is not illegal to play music/movies in a public forum but i think they are crossing a line when they broadcast it and play commercials etc and are obviously generating revenue.
My opinion still stands (and is pretty well backed by what's presented here) As, while I believe Blizzard is definitely in the right, I'm sad about the inevitable damage this is gonna do to Pro BW.
The whole problem with MBC/OGN case is that they make revenue out of using said content, so they have to apy back, as well as all the negotiation before hand help blizzards case because it is evident that MBC/OGN do recognize the rights but they didn't want to pay for it.
It is the same as movies because they are making revenue, if they weren't making money out of it then it would easily fall under some Fair Use clause.
On March 19 2011 11:05 Jaeger wrote: So are all of the people using justin.tv for streams and typing /commercial to make money between matches at risk for lawsuits?
well not really, as, to be serious, those guys are making money from the commercials, not the actual content.
On March 19 2011 09:06 fire_brand wrote: I think if this was all about greed blizzard would be attacking other tournaments and shutting down online broadcasts of sc2. It seems that they are trying to ensure that there are no obstacles in place to control the growth for their esports scene.
If you guys remember Gretech/GOMTV used to run and broadcast very successful SCBW tournaments, but were basically shut down when Kespa/OGN/MBC banned players from attending these tournaments so their Esports monopoly in korea would remain intact.
It seems like a lot of what OGN/MBC is demanding is for the good of esports in korea, but we all know what they did in the past, so if I was blizzard I would probably take the same stance. Giving Kespa any controlling power over esports could be absolutely devastating.
Do you seriously have a source for this?
You do realise that if kespa had banned players from GomTV Averatec-Intel Classic then you wouldn't have even had 1 season of it? Instead there was 3 (not counting special matches)!!!
The reality of the issue is that the teams decided to focus more on proleague and osl and msl. There was just not enough prestigue/viewers/time to practice for GomTV Averatec-Intel Classic. They also had bad korean commentators (or so I heard).
SKT was the first team to pull out at the end of GomTV avertech intel classic season 2 and then over time the rest of the teams followed. This is why bisu could not defend his season 2 crown in season 3. It didn't stop Flash from winning season 3 though.
On March 19 2011 10:11 dcemuser wrote: I hope OGN/MBC just gives up this fight and pays what Blizzard/Gretech wants (it isn't so large that it is the end of the world), so that SC1 broadcasting can continue legally and SC2 broadcasting has a place to go.
The problem with that is, it's not just about the money, as OGN was willing to pay already. It's more about the rights and how Blizzard wants 100% control, which is kind of ridiculous because under their rules, they would have control over teams and players.
starcraft is currently under kespa's 100% control and they do control teams and players
On March 19 2011 09:06 fire_brand wrote: I think if this was all about greed blizzard would be attacking other tournaments and shutting down online broadcasts of sc2. It seems that they are trying to ensure that there are no obstacles in place to control the growth for their esports scene.
If you guys remember Gretech/GOMTV used to run and broadcast very successful SCBW tournaments, but were basically shut down when Kespa/OGN/MBC banned players from attending these tournaments so their Esports monopoly in korea would remain intact.
It seems like a lot of what OGN/MBC is demanding is for the good of esports in korea, but we all know what they did in the past, so if I was blizzard I would probably take the same stance. Giving Kespa any controlling power over esports could be absolutely devastating.
Do you seriously have a source for this?
You do realise that if kespa had banned players from GomTV Averatec-Intel Classic then you wouldn't have even had 1 season of it? Instead there was 3 (not counting special matches)!!!
The reality of the issue is that the teams decided to focus more on proleague and osl and msl. There was just not enough prestigue/viewers/time to practice for GomTV Averatec-Intel Classic. They also had bad korean commentators (or so I heard).
SKT was the first team to pull out at the end of GomTV avertech intel classic season 2 and then over time the rest of the teams followed. This is why bisu could not defend his season 2 crown in season 3. It didn't stop Flash from winning season 3 though.
To this point, KeSPA did actually forbid anybody with a progaming license from participating in the GOM events. But you are also right that the quality of the tournament, and importance placed on it wasn't up to the OSL, MSL and PL.
Anyways, this all seems kinda pointless. Wouldn't it just have been easier/cheaper for the companies to just pay the fees that Blizzard was requesting? I guess I can see them not want to give anything, but still- I think they are going to lose something in the end, plus a costly court battle :/
On March 19 2011 10:11 dcemuser wrote: I hope OGN/MBC just gives up this fight and pays what Blizzard/Gretech wants (it isn't so large that it is the end of the world), so that SC1 broadcasting can continue legally and SC2 broadcasting has a place to go.
The problem with that is, it's not just about the money, as OGN was willing to pay already. It's more about the rights and how Blizzard wants 100% control, which is kind of ridiculous because under their rules, they would have control over teams and players.
starcraft is currently under kespa's 100% control and they do control teams and players
I don't get it, what's your point? the teams are part of KeSPA and the leagues operate under KeSPA. Blizzard is demanding control over league contracts, player contracts, replays and auditing KeSPA and the broadcasting stations in addition to the royalties and league fees. Its no wonder that KeSPA, OGN and MBC find that ridiculous.
On March 19 2011 10:11 dcemuser wrote: I hope OGN/MBC just gives up this fight and pays what Blizzard/Gretech wants (it isn't so large that it is the end of the world), so that SC1 broadcasting can continue legally and SC2 broadcasting has a place to go.
The problem with that is, it's not just about the money, as OGN was willing to pay already. It's more about the rights and how Blizzard wants 100% control, which is kind of ridiculous because under their rules, they would have control over teams and players.
starcraft is currently under kespa's 100% control and they do control teams and players
Because the companies that are represented by Kespa pay for all the costs involved in the upkeep of the teams/practice houses as well as host Proleague and all the other minor and amateur leagues/competitions.
This case could be argued in many ways depending on your stance. You could argue "if you manufacture a shirt and I wear that shirt to a multimillion dollar party, and this party happens to be broadcasting on TV, you have no rights in asking shares from the TV station or the party host"; or you can compare video game with movie like Blizzard does. Either way, there's no clear solution for this case. It's just happened that the fact that Starcraft generate revenue due to being on TV. This is the difference between Starcraft and other games. I've seen video games being broadcast on TV many times which include CS and Halo, but not one court case occurred except this one. It's simply because of the amount of money involved when a game is broadcast on popular TV channels and Blizzard couldn't stand watching money being generated by this game. It all comes down to muuuuneyyyyy baby.
However due to this case, I'm seeing the anti-Blizzard in Korea by esport agencies and media companies. That's the reason Starcraft 2 has not reached its potential like BW. This is the reason the number of SC2 copies sold in Korea is much lower than that of NA or EU markets. Nothing comparable to the 50% of BW market in Korea.
On March 19 2011 09:06 fire_brand wrote: I think if this was all about greed blizzard would be attacking other tournaments and shutting down online broadcasts of sc2. It seems that they are trying to ensure that there are no obstacles in place to control the growth for their esports scene.
If you guys remember Gretech/GOMTV used to run and broadcast very successful SCBW tournaments, but were basically shut down when Kespa/OGN/MBC banned players from attending these tournaments so their Esports monopoly in korea would remain intact.
It seems like a lot of what OGN/MBC is demanding is for the good of esports in korea, but we all know what they did in the past, so if I was blizzard I would probably take the same stance. Giving Kespa any controlling power over esports could be absolutely devastating.
Do you seriously have a source for this?
You do realise that if kespa had banned players from GomTV Averatec-Intel Classic then you wouldn't have even had 1 season of it? Instead there was 3 (not counting special matches)!!!
The reality of the issue is that the teams decided to focus more on proleague and osl and msl. There was just not enough prestigue/viewers/time to practice for GomTV Averatec-Intel Classic. They also had bad korean commentators (or so I heard).
SKT was the first team to pull out at the end of GomTV avertech intel classic season 2 and then over time the rest of the teams followed. This is why bisu could not defend his season 2 crown in season 3. It didn't stop Flash from winning season 3 though.
To this point, KeSPA did actually forbid anybody with a progaming license from participating in the GOM events. But you are also right that the quality of the tournament, and importance placed on it wasn't up to the OSL, MSL and PL.
Anyways, this all seems kinda pointless. Wouldn't it just have been easier/cheaper for the companies to just pay the fees that Blizzard was requesting? I guess I can see them not want to give anything, but still- I think they are going to lose something in the end, plus a costly court battle :/
As long as BW comes out at the end of the day...
This is after sc2 came out..blizzard started making crazy demands and used sc2 as a bargaining chip. I'm just tired of people saying that Kespa killed GomTV Averatec-Intel Classic.
On March 19 2011 11:05 Jaeger wrote: So are all of the people using justin.tv for streams and typing /commercial to make money between matches at risk for lawsuits?
Q. So You guys are ok with YouTube channels and YouTube partners making money off your corporate content?
Are we? Can we stop them? Do we want to? I’m ok with it. And certainly lots of people around the world right now have jobs that are based on Starcraft. They make money out of it. But they also put a lot of work into it. They put a ton of effort into what they do. They certainly, from my perspective, they’ve earned the money. They contribute.
Now as for the statement in regards to this:
1. It's only related to more personal stuff (no big company like KeSPA for example).
2. Stuff like casters on youtube (BW or SC2) aren't really competing with Blizzard's bigger stuff.
3. Dustin Browder doesn't get a say in the big stuff.
Anyway this is just to point out that it seems okay to make money off of casting or so on youtube or streams.
On March 19 2011 09:06 fire_brand wrote: I think if this was all about greed blizzard would be attacking other tournaments and shutting down online broadcasts of sc2. It seems that they are trying to ensure that there are no obstacles in place to control the growth for their esports scene.
If you guys remember Gretech/GOMTV used to run and broadcast very successful SCBW tournaments, but were basically shut down when Kespa/OGN/MBC banned players from attending these tournaments so their Esports monopoly in korea would remain intact.
It seems like a lot of what OGN/MBC is demanding is for the good of esports in korea, but we all know what they did in the past, so if I was blizzard I would probably take the same stance. Giving Kespa any controlling power over esports could be absolutely devastating.
Do you seriously have a source for this?
You do realise that if kespa had banned players from GomTV Averatec-Intel Classic then you wouldn't have even had 1 season of it? Instead there was 3 (not counting special matches)!!!
The reality of the issue is that the teams decided to focus more on proleague and osl and msl. There was just not enough prestigue/viewers/time to practice for GomTV Averatec-Intel Classic. They also had bad korean commentators (or so I heard).
SKT was the first team to pull out at the end of GomTV avertech intel classic season 2 and then over time the rest of the teams followed. This is why bisu could not defend his season 2 crown in season 3. It didn't stop Flash from winning season 3 though.
To this point, KeSPA did actually forbid anybody with a progaming license from participating in the GOM events. But you are also right that the quality of the tournament, and importance placed on it wasn't up to the OSL, MSL and PL.
Anyways, this all seems kinda pointless. Wouldn't it just have been easier/cheaper for the companies to just pay the fees that Blizzard was requesting? I guess I can see them not want to give anything, but still- I think they are going to lose something in the end, plus a costly court battle :/
As long as BW comes out at the end of the day...
This is after sc2 came out..blizzard started making crazy demands and used sc2 as a bargaining chip. I'm just tired of people saying that Kespa killed GomTV Averatec-Intel Classic.
On March 19 2011 11:25 nart wrote: This case could be argued in many ways depending on your stance. You could argue "if you manufacture a shirt and I wear that shirt to a multimillion dollar party, and this party happens to be broadcasting on TV, you have no rights in asking shares from the TV station or the party host"; or you can compare video game with movie like Blizzard does. Either way, there's no clear solution for this case. It's just happened that the fact that Starcraft generate revenue due to being on TV. This is the difference between Starcraft and other games. I've seen video games being broadcast on TV many times which include CS and Halo, but not one court case occurred except this one. It's simply because of the amount of money involved when a game is broadcast on popular TV channels and Blizzard couldn't stand watching money being generated by this game. It all comes down to muuuuneyyyyy baby.
However due to this case, I'm seeing the anti-Blizzard in Korea by esport agencies and media companies. That's the reason Starcraft 2 has not reached its potential like BW. This is the reason the number of SC2 copies sold in Korea is much lower than that of NA or EU markets. Nothing comparable to the 50% of BW market in Korea.
Sad for esport. Sad for SC2.
I very much doubt that anyone tuned in to see your T-Shirt, I am sure though people tune in to watch the movie that is playing, so it totally different, people tune into watch starcraft the revenue is created because of starcraft no revenue was created BECAUSE of your T-shirt.
As for popularity? link to numbers please? BW is on its way down no way you can see it differently, it is much easier for a young kid trying to make it pro to join some open preliminaries than try and get a licence (inb4 KeSPA makes licences easier to get), and the game itself is more appealing because it is more pleasing to the eye.
Most people on this thread are being defensive because of their love for BW but I doubt MBC/OGN has any chance of winning this.
On March 19 2011 09:06 fire_brand wrote: I think if this was all about greed blizzard would be attacking other tournaments and shutting down online broadcasts of sc2. It seems that they are trying to ensure that there are no obstacles in place to control the growth for their esports scene.
If you guys remember Gretech/GOMTV used to run and broadcast very successful SCBW tournaments, but were basically shut down when Kespa/OGN/MBC banned players from attending these tournaments so their Esports monopoly in korea would remain intact.
It seems like a lot of what OGN/MBC is demanding is for the good of esports in korea, but we all know what they did in the past, so if I was blizzard I would probably take the same stance. Giving Kespa any controlling power over esports could be absolutely devastating.
Do you seriously have a source for this?
You do realise that if kespa had banned players from GomTV Averatec-Intel Classic then you wouldn't have even had 1 season of it? Instead there was 3 (not counting special matches)!!!
The reality of the issue is that the teams decided to focus more on proleague and osl and msl. There was just not enough prestigue/viewers/time to practice for GomTV Averatec-Intel Classic. They also had bad korean commentators (or so I heard).
SKT was the first team to pull out at the end of GomTV avertech intel classic season 2 and then over time the rest of the teams followed. This is why bisu could not defend his season 2 crown in season 3. It didn't stop Flash from winning season 3 though.
To this point, KeSPA did actually forbid anybody with a progaming license from participating in the GOM events. But you are also right that the quality of the tournament, and importance placed on it wasn't up to the OSL, MSL and PL.
Anyways, this all seems kinda pointless. Wouldn't it just have been easier/cheaper for the companies to just pay the fees that Blizzard was requesting? I guess I can see them not want to give anything, but still- I think they are going to lose something in the end, plus a costly court battle :/
As long as BW comes out at the end of the day...
This is after sc2 came out..blizzard started making crazy demands and used sc2 as a bargaining chip. I'm just tired of people saying that Kespa killed GomTV Averatec-Intel Classic.
On March 19 2011 09:06 fire_brand wrote: I think if this was all about greed blizzard would be attacking other tournaments and shutting down online broadcasts of sc2. It seems that they are trying to ensure that there are no obstacles in place to control the growth for their esports scene.
If you guys remember Gretech/GOMTV used to run and broadcast very successful SCBW tournaments, but were basically shut down when Kespa/OGN/MBC banned players from attending these tournaments so their Esports monopoly in korea would remain intact.
It seems like a lot of what OGN/MBC is demanding is for the good of esports in korea, but we all know what they did in the past, so if I was blizzard I would probably take the same stance. Giving Kespa any controlling power over esports could be absolutely devastating.
Do you seriously have a source for this?
You do realise that if kespa had banned players from GomTV Averatec-Intel Classic then you wouldn't have even had 1 season of it? Instead there was 3 (not counting special matches)!!!
The reality of the issue is that the teams decided to focus more on proleague and osl and msl. There was just not enough prestigue/viewers/time to practice for GomTV Averatec-Intel Classic. They also had bad korean commentators (or so I heard).
SKT was the first team to pull out at the end of GomTV avertech intel classic season 2 and then over time the rest of the teams followed. This is why bisu could not defend his season 2 crown in season 3. It didn't stop Flash from winning season 3 though.
To this point, KeSPA did actually forbid anybody with a progaming license from participating in the GOM events. But you are also right that the quality of the tournament, and importance placed on it wasn't up to the OSL, MSL and PL.
Anyways, this all seems kinda pointless. Wouldn't it just have been easier/cheaper for the companies to just pay the fees that Blizzard was requesting? I guess I can see them not want to give anything, but still- I think they are going to lose something in the end, plus a costly court battle :/
As long as BW comes out at the end of the day...
This is after sc2 came out..blizzard started making crazy demands and used sc2 as a bargaining chip. I'm just tired of people saying that Kespa killed GomTV Averatec-Intel Classic.
On March 19 2011 11:05 Jaeger wrote: So are all of the people using justin.tv for streams and typing /commercial to make money between matches at risk for lawsuits?
well not really, as, to be serious, those guys are making money from the commercials, not the actual content.
Where do you think Korean Starcraft TV channels get money from? Obviously commercial advertisements.
Blizzard has priorities, and this is more of an ego battle. Go after the big corporations that are arrogantly defying you, or go hunting for dudes making pennies in comparison from Justin.TV?
On March 19 2011 11:25 nart wrote: This case could be argued in many ways depending on your stance. You could argue "if you manufacture a shirt and I wear that shirt to a multimillion dollar party, and this party happens to be broadcasting on TV, you have no rights in asking shares from the TV station or the party host"; or you can compare video game with movie like Blizzard does. Either way, there's no clear solution for this case. It's just happened that the fact that Starcraft generate revenue due to being on TV. This is the difference between Starcraft and other games. I've seen video games being broadcast on TV many times which include CS and Halo, but not one court case occurred except this one. It's simply because of the amount of money involved when a game is broadcast on popular TV channels and Blizzard couldn't stand watching money being generated by this game. It all comes down to muuuuneyyyyy baby.
However due to this case, I'm seeing the anti-Blizzard in Korea by esport agencies and media companies. That's the reason Starcraft 2 has not reached its potential like BW. This is the reason the number of SC2 copies sold in Korea is much lower than that of NA or EU markets. Nothing comparable to the 50% of BW market in Korea.
Sad for esport. Sad for SC2.
I very much doubt that anyone tuned in to see your T-Shirt, I am sure though people tune in to watch the movie that is playing, so it totally different, people tune into watch starcraft the revenue is created because of starcraft no revenue was created BECAUSE of your T-shirt.
As for popularity? link to numbers please? BW is on its way down no way you can see it differently, it is much easier for a young kid trying to make it pro to join some open preliminaries than try and get a licence (inb4 KeSPA makes licences easier to get), and the game itself is more appealing because it is more pleasing to the eye.
Most people on this thread are being defensive because of their love for BW but I doubt MBC/OGN has any chance of winning this.
It could be an expensive shirt. How about a sexy Jenifer Lopez shirt? You bet my sisters will tune in and talk about it all over facebook and twitter.
I think almost 50% of BW copies was sold in Korea. can't find the article I read.
BW is on its way down, but it has reached the top of esport.
I can argue that licensing is more appealing due to being associated with "professional".
Which game is more appealing depends on who you talk to. I bet many starcraft vets on TL would prefer BW over SC2.
I think MBC/OGN has better chance, because many countries law are different to the U.S's when it comes to IP rights. In the US, anything could be sued; in other parts of the world suing over this is a bit ridiculous.
On March 19 2011 08:37 Nerski wrote: If blizzard ever wanted total control over anyone who ran a tournament with sc / sc2 period that'd be daft and would in my opinion go beyond their IP rights. That'd be like the nike telling the NFL they had to pay them because the NFL player wore their shoes, when in fact it goes the other way around.
But you can't compare the game to shoes, it plays a MUCH much bigger role than that. It would be more like the Stadium, because the players play in it. And guess what? The NFL (actually the specific team but still) pays the stadium owners if the team does not own the Stadium themselves (for example the Chicago Bears stadium is owned by the Park District).
The thing I don't think people are understanding saying that "I've seen video games on TV before" "people stream sc2 on J.tv all the time" etc. The thing is, the game company (or Blizzard in the case of SC2 J.tv streaming) is not telling them to cease and desist, or give them money.
On March 19 2011 04:28 Milkis wrote: Blizzard latched onto the fact that OGN has established an agreement before with Gretech for Korean Air OSL Season 2. Blizzard's lawyer argued that OGN, who recognized the rights then are not recognizing them now.
I really hope this doesn't weight in on the final verdict. If Blizzard does win the case it should be because that the law is on their side and not because of scare tactics from their part.
I think a lot of people are misunderstanding one of the arguments Blizzard brings up. As far as I understand it they are not saying that bw broadcasts didn't help the growth of e-sports, they are saying that the growth of e-sports is no reason to violate ip rights.
OGN/MBCGame are Robin Hood, and Blizzard are the rich they are stealing from.
The comparison to a movie channel playing movies without asking for permission isn't entirely accurate. I'd say a better comparison would be: The main character of a tv show is watching a movie. This movie is on screen for a longer period of time.
I don't know if there is any existing law on that subject though, maybe someone else does?
all of this blizzard nonsense and the mediocre job they are doing currently (imho) with sc2 is the reason why i've taken a long break from sc2. it's lost its appeal and i personally enjoy playing/watching the bw broadcasts. I can't believe that blizzard has stated that they have not gained at all from the work that the korean progamers have done...
On March 19 2011 11:05 Jaeger wrote: So are all of the people using justin.tv for streams and typing /commercial to make money between matches at risk for lawsuits?
I'm really curious about this too. It seems to me they aren't actually trying to enforce any sort of rights to broadcast the game on Justin.tv or Youtube or any other site outside of Korea. They certainly don't seem to be shutting anyone down or otherwise demanding that people respect their ownership. Not that I want them to start, but it might be something OGN/MBC could look at
On March 19 2011 12:42 noojOh wrote: all of this blizzard nonsense and the mediocre job they are doing currently (imho) with sc2 is the reason why i've taken a long break from sc2. it's lost its appeal and i personally enjoy playing/watching the bw broadcasts. I can't believe that blizzard has stated that they have not gained at all from the work that the korean progamers have done...
The reason the SC2 scene is booming is because of the top players and more or less than 90% of them are from the BW scene. It's their only appeal. SC2 E-sport is great because of the caliber of players playing in the GSL, etc. These players are the B-teamers and the Old Legends who lost their mojo but still has the charisma to make their fans follow them wherever they go. Now, if blizzard has the likes of TBLS in its 'E-sport Scene', how would that play out for them?
Blizzard wants the current contracts of BW pro players from kespa. This was/is the 1st on the list of 'agreements' [condition] they [blizzard] want from kespa and this is the also most greediest. + Show Spoiler +
Greed in a sense that they didn't do anything to help the 1st Internationally Accepted, Internationally Sought after IDEA/FRANCHISE/what-ever-you-want-to-call-it E-sport Scene and now wants to have it under its clutches. They act as if they have made the scene from scratch.
WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MINDS WOULD SIGN THIS SHIT? SERIOUSLY ..
also .. Blizzard wanted the rights to Audit KeSPA .. lol
It's sad reading Boxer's TSL interview where he wishes for a fast and amicable end to the Blizzard/Kespa conflict and realizing that if either side had 1/10 of Boxer's concern for the fans, this stupid mess would already be long done.
i can see it coming, just a few years from now: whenever someone make a movie and sells it, he will have to pay money to the brands that made the pants that the actors wear. if someone makes a livestream and people pay for it, he will have to pay money to the company that built his chair that is seen while livestreaming.
On March 19 2011 12:33 DizzyDrone wrote: I think a lot of people are misunderstanding one of the arguments Blizzard brings up. As far as I understand it they are not saying that bw broadcasts didn't help the growth of e-sports, they are saying that the growth of e-sports is no reason to violate ip rights.
OGN/MBCGame are Robin Hood, and Blizzard are the rich they are stealing from.
The comparison to a movie channel playing movies without asking for permission isn't entirely accurate. I'd say a better comparison would be: The main character of a tv show is watching a movie. This movie is on screen for a longer period of time.
I don't know if there is any existing law on that subject though, maybe someone else does?
I disagree with the analogies because:
1. About your robin hood comparison - Sales of BW is in South Korea is 4.5+ million. Total sales are around 9 million. That means just half is in South Korea.
KeSPA isn't really doing any "stealing" from Blizzard. At least not before SC2 came out. In general KeSPA used legally bought BW copies of the game from Blizzard. KeSPA displayed gameplay of said game. People liked what they saw and also bought BW but also paid to see KeSPA display said gameplay.
Both KeSPA + Blizzard benefited (KeSPA with money and Blizzard with sales + esports scene that will also transfer to SC2).
However - Now that Starcraft 2 is out, BW is competing with SC2.
Now KeSPA is technically stealing (or keeping people from SC2) with BW without anything paid to Blizzard.
So before SC2, both KeSPA + Blizzard benefited but now it can be said only KeSPA benefits from BW (since most people that want BW already have the game.).
Regardless though I see a lot of people saying KeSPA was the only one that benefited. While KeSPA is competing with Blizzard now in terms of SC1 vs SC2, they helped Blizzard greatly (in terms of BW sales and advertisement) and also helped build the scene for SC2.
I actually made another post about it here with an indie company - Click.
2. About the movie comparison - it isn't a 1 to 1 comparison simply because in a movie some person did everything already and they're just displaying that while in games sometimes it's up to the player to make the video game entertaining (if they're just watching).
Also in a movie, once you've seen it you'll probably not going to buy the movie. In games (unless the game relies heavily on the story like Phoenix Wright games for example), it ends up as free advertisement for said game.
On March 19 2011 11:05 Jaeger wrote: So are all of the people using justin.tv for streams and typing /commercial to make money between matches at risk for lawsuits?
I'm really curious about this too. It seems to me they aren't actually trying to enforce any sort of rights to broadcast the game on Justin.tv or Youtube or any other site outside of Korea. They certainly don't seem to be shutting anyone down or otherwise demanding that people respect their ownership. Not that I want them to start, but it might be something OGN/MBC could look at
Q. So You guys are ok with YouTube channels and YouTube partners making money off your corporate content?
Are we? Can we stop them? Do we want to? I’m ok with it. And certainly lots of people around the world right now have jobs that are based on Starcraft. They make money out of it. But they also put a lot of work into it. They put a ton of effort into what they do. They certainly, from my perspective, they’ve earned the money. They contribute.
On March 19 2011 12:33 DizzyDrone wrote: I think a lot of people are misunderstanding one of the arguments Blizzard brings up. As far as I understand it they are not saying that bw broadcasts didn't help the growth of e-sports, they are saying that the growth of e-sports is no reason to violate ip rights.
OGN/MBCGame are Robin Hood, and Blizzard are the rich they are stealing from.
The comparison to a movie channel playing movies without asking for permission isn't entirely accurate. I'd say a better comparison would be: The main character of a tv show is watching a movie. This movie is on screen for a longer period of time.
I don't know if there is any existing law on that subject though, maybe someone else does?
I disagree with the analogies because:
1. About your robin hood comparison - Sales of BW is in South Korea is 4.5+ million. Total sales are around 9 million. That means just half is in South Korea.
KeSPA isn't really doing any "stealing" from Blizzard. An analogy would be if KeSPA bought a copyrighted cheese sandwich from Blizzard for example
KeSPA would have pro eaters eat the sandwich live on TV. People will pay money to see people eat the sandwich.
People notice the sandwich is good and also want to buy the sandwich from Blizzard.
In other words KeSPA was benefiting but Blizzard was also benefiting.
However - Now that Starcraft 2 is out, BW is competing with SC2.
Now KeSPA is technically stealing (or keeping people from SC2) with BW without anything paid to Blizzard.
So before SC2, both KeSPA + Blizzard benefited but now it can be said only KeSPA benefits from BW (since most people that want BW already have the game.).
Regardless though I see a lot of people saying KeSPA was the only one that benefited. While KeSPA is competing with Blizzard now in terms of SC1 vs SC2, they helped Blizzard greatly (in terms of BW sales and advertisement) and also helped build the scene for SC2.
I actually made another post about it here with an indie company - Click.
2. About the movie comparison - it isn't a 1 to 1 comparison simply because in a movie some person did everything already and they're just displaying that while in games sometimes it's up to the player to make the video game entertaining (if they're just watching).
Also in a movie, once you've seen it you'll probably not going to buy the movie. In games (unless the game relies heavily on the story like Phoenix Wright games for example), it ends up as free advertisement for said game.
I'm pretty all the big fans of sc bw bought sc2 or at least tried the game because of their love for the game.
I would argue that if they were not exposed to scbw in the first place they would not be well positioned to buy/try the game. This accounts for a huge number of game sales.
I would compare sc2 with a bad movie with a good preview. You watch the preview thinking that it's good but then you go and watch it and find out how incredibly lame it is. You've lost 20bucks (because it was 3D) and then leave feeling empty on the inside.
If anything, scbw is like the best preview ever and sc2 is like the awful movie. There is no way sc2 would be as popular as it is today (at least in terms of number of copies sold) if it weren't for scbw.
Blizzard joining Activision was the worst move they could possibly have done. I can't see all of this demand being only Blizzard. For many years they supported Pro starcraft games, because there are other games that are played as pro games, and its good for the industry as a whole if more games become more competative. And hey blizzard, imagine if there are none of your games in World championships of gaming. Think it wouldn't make a negative impact?
Greedy fucks are getting worse, its not like they haven't made enough from Wow. Every year i lose respect for Blizzard because of their corporate greed.
On March 19 2011 16:52 Herry wrote: Blizzard joining Activision was the worst move they could possibly have done. I can't see all of this demand being only Blizzard. For many years they supported Pro starcraft games, because there are other games that are played as pro games, and its good for the industry as a whole if more games become more competative. And hey blizzard, imagine if there are none of your games in World championships of gaming. Think it wouldn't make a negative impact?
Greedy fucks are getting worse, its not like they haven't made enough from Wow. Every year i lose respect for Blizzard because of their corporate greed.
It wasn't their move to make, rather Vivendi which holds Blizzard. So your arguments pretty much invalid.
On March 19 2011 12:07 Noreh wrote: This is honestly going to turn bad for both sides before this is over but do we really want KeSPA with the control they have now?
Yes, I am positive I'd rather KeSPA have the control that they have now.
Not because they are doing such a standup job, or that they are in the legal and/or moral right. But because, at the end of the day, the alternative is that Blizzard has the control that KeSPA has now, and I have no doubt that they will basically kill off bw.
I'm not saying Blizzard is being an ass just because they can do it, but looking at it from their perspective:
1. Whether, or not BW has helped promote their image/products in the past, it is no longer profitable to them now. They have a newer shinier sequel out which is now the focal point of their interests and killing BW now will not undo any potential benefit the competitive BW scene has brought them in the past.
2. BW now competes directly with their current interests, that being the promotion of the SC2 'proscene'. While obviously the two are still able to draw the attention of the crowd to each other. Blizzard is aware that many people still prefer watching BW over SC2, and while it is obvious that it's possible for a person to enjoy both, some people(like myself) simply don't feel the need to watch both (I don't feel that SC2 has any stand alone attraction to me, I see no reason to watch it while I can still watch the superior predecessor, etc) , and feel no need to accept the inferior substitute. I suspect Blizzard feels that they can force some of these people over to SC2 simply due to lack of alternative if the BW proscene dies.
3. The conflict of interest is not limited to people's preferences of proscene, iirc OGN/MBC once released some information regarding Blizzard actually wanting them to give up their broadcast timeslots for BW so that they do not compete directly with the time slots that Blizzard wants SC2 to be broadcast, obviously OGN/MBC rejected these ludicrous demands, but it goes to show that there is a material conflict between the proscenes of the 2 blizzard games. And given that Blizzard stands to make alot more money from the SC2 scene than the already established BW scene I can understand why Blizzard would look to the BW scene with animosity despite it being their own game.
Given the 3 points above, I find it unsurprising that so far, virtually all of Blizzard's demands, irrespective of their legal standing(Yes I believe they might well have the legal high ground, so gogo Korean corruption??) seem to be more centred on subsuming, restricting and if not downright smothering the existing BW infrastructure rather than any realistic attempt to profit off it.
Subsequently, seeing Blizzard's sinister if understandable motives, I can't help but want KeSPA and it's affiliates to win irrespective of legal or moral standpoint.
On March 19 2011 09:06 fire_brand wrote: I think if this was all about greed blizzard would be attacking other tournaments and shutting down online broadcasts of sc2. It seems that they are trying to ensure that there are no obstacles in place to control the growth for their esports scene.
If you guys remember Gretech/GOMTV used to run and broadcast very successful SCBW tournaments, but were basically shut down when Kespa/OGN/MBC banned players from attending these tournaments so their Esports monopoly in korea would remain intact.
It seems like a lot of what OGN/MBC is demanding is for the good of esports in korea, but we all know what they did in the past, so if I was blizzard I would probably take the same stance. Giving Kespa any controlling power over esports could be absolutely devastating.
Do you seriously have a source for this?
You do realise that if kespa had banned players from GomTV Averatec-Intel Classic then you wouldn't have even had 1 season of it? Instead there was 3 (not counting special matches)!!!
The reality of the issue is that the teams decided to focus more on proleague and osl and msl. There was just not enough prestigue/viewers/time to practice for GomTV Averatec-Intel Classic. They also had bad korean commentators (or so I heard).
SKT was the first team to pull out at the end of GomTV avertech intel classic season 2 and then over time the rest of the teams followed. This is why bisu could not defend his season 2 crown in season 3. It didn't stop Flash from winning season 3 though.
To this point, KeSPA did actually forbid anybody with a progaming license from participating in the GOM events. But you are also right that the quality of the tournament, and importance placed on it wasn't up to the OSL, MSL and PL.
Anyways, this all seems kinda pointless. Wouldn't it just have been easier/cheaper for the companies to just pay the fees that Blizzard was requesting? I guess I can see them not want to give anything, but still- I think they are going to lose something in the end, plus a costly court battle :/
As long as BW comes out at the end of the day...
If KeSPA banned anybody from participating in gomtv events (back then), then how come several teams still expressed the willingness to play? Maybe one or two teams pulled out due to political reasons (and it wasn't until blizzard chimed in, after their negotiations with KeSPA soured), others had ligitimate reasons.
Blizzard is/was demading $100k per season of each league, 100% rights (I think it's 50/50 now, but they'd still need blizzard's approval on everything) to the broadcasting materials (VODs/live broadcasts and shows related to BW, such as Hyung Jun becomes a progamer, etc. ...), maps, as well as separate contracts with KeSPA players and blizzard overriding their contracts with their respective teams. They also demanded to have a final say when it comes to OGN/MBC broadcasting schedule.
I don't see how blizzard taking the whole BW scene hostage would be easier or cheaper. Gretech in their negotiations demanded PL taken out of the prime slots. What makes you think blizzard wouldn't move BW events to some obscure time slots to make room for sc2 events, like gretech wanted? With overriding contracts with the players, they can also force them to switch to sc2, which was part of their agreement with gretech - the switch from BW to sc2. With 100% control over the BW scene what stops them from doing just that?
I don't see why it should matter at all the amount of potential profit or advertising Blizzard may have gained from KeSPA or any station's involvement. The argument here is that Blizzard is just greedy and that they should be happy with the sales they made from Korea. If greed was they case they would have asked for money years ago, before WoW came along and made them gajillionaires. Anyways, we're talking about IP rights so all this "there would be no scene without KeSPA" talk is unrelated, and frankly pure conjecture. We don't know who else may have filled that void or where, we only know that KeSPA did.
I don't feel qualified to comment on any other points (or this one I guess) but in a debate over IP rights KeSPA should not be given any reverence, especially after their numerous failings.
*edit* - another point on how Blizzard wants to kill BW,
Broadcasting Brood War, even today, helps sales of SC2. Who the hell doesn't buy the sequel to their favorite game of all time?
I'm waiting for the die hard fans to chime in now with how they never bought the game, but you know in your hearts you're a vocal minority.
On March 19 2011 04:28 Milkis wrote: The argument is that it is nonsense to violate IP rights to have the game market grow. Blizzard wondered what was the difference between MBC/OGN's argument and a movie channel playing movies without asking for permission.
How the hell can Blizzard actually be arguing this? Are their lawyers seriously that stupid? If I watch a movie on TV I'm going to be LESS inclined to go buy the movie; however if I see a game of BW on TV I'm going to be more likely to buy/play Broodwar. OGN/MBC are 100% completely correct in this case, and if TV broadcasts had never come along BW would never have sold as many copies as it did in Korea and elsewhere.
Actually, if you really like the movie you may go and buy the DVD, so that you can watch it whenever you want instead of waiting for it to appear randomly on TV. I have watched Terminator and Back to the Future movies for a thousand times on TV, but I have their DVDs. So their analogy is plausible.
Without BW eSports SC2 wouldn't have even taken off how it did, the hype of it being Koreans 'national sport' as so many stupidly say has been going on for years and set Starcraft into the minds of many. They got balls to claim it didn't help growth at all. If MBC/OGN have to pay a significant amount of money to keep it running i can't see it lasting long, the whole scene already costs so much with so little actual profit.
On March 19 2011 10:53 Lipski wrote: how would they have control over teams and players? from what i recall blizzard demanded pretty hefty broadcasting license from ogn/mbc, and should they pay that, everything goes on as it always had. ogn/mbc were willing to pay, just not that much, and that's why they are in court now.
The terms were given out, and Blizzard did indeed want control over the players and ownership rights of every broadcast of anything related to Starcraft (which would include shows like Hyungjoon somehow). Having contracts that override their current ones is plain insanity. Hoping we get a fair ruling for this, not just for SC but this sets a precedent for the future as well on any other game where the developer just steps in and tries to assume control.
To this point, KeSPA did actually forbid anybody with a progaming license from participating in the GOM events. But you are also right that the quality of the tournament, and importance placed on it wasn't up to the OSL, MSL and PL.
All KeSPA did was make the GOM events no longer count for KeSPA ranking (ie: no longer kespa sanctioned). They did not forbid anyone from participating. Stop spreading ignorant statements.
at the beginning of this whole thing I wasnt sure who I thought was in the right...
now, sadly, I think it's actually KESPA. remember, the devil you know is often better than the devil you dont know. if broadcasting people playing a game isnt fair use I really hate to think of the implications of that.
I mean, if someone plays a public performance with a fender guitar and a fender amp, they dont have to pay fender beyond the cost of the tools. but by Blizzard's definition, they ought to because all of the sound is being generated by Fender's product. without the guitar and amplifier, there is no concert.
but in reality you are paying to hear the skill of the artist, and when we watch starcraft we want to watch the skill of the players. no one wants to look at some ancient 640x480 game if it's being played by randoms. just like no one wants to hear some wanker who cant play guitar.
Now like I have always thought and said, it will be hard pressed to win against Blizzard, the source of the problem is kespa looking for revenue when bliz got none of the cake. I'm not worried that BW pro scene will be devastated at all. Things will go on as usual and bliz would get a really sizable pocket change.
Oh and I don't believe fair use could be used as a counter-argument when you're actively generating revenue from viewers.
Blizzard cant be serious while comparing the MBC/OGN Broadcasts with illegal movie-stream-websites. In my eyes it is more like Blizzard provided the tool for the progamers and they use the tools (Starcraft:bw, starcraft 2 ...) to entertain the masses. I assume all copies used by the progamers are legaly owned and Blizzard got money from it. How weird would it be if Adidas sues the FIFA because they use their football for tournaments. Blizzard gets constantly free Advertisement through all the korean broadcast and korean Proscene helped Blizzard a lot when it comes to selling games and creating a hype. I honestly hope the Koreans win this lawsuit.
On March 19 2011 11:44 elementz wrote: As for popularity? link to numbers please? BW is on its way down no way you can see it differently, it is much easier for a young kid trying to make it pro to join some open preliminaries than try and get a licence (inb4 KeSPA makes licences easier to get), and the game itself is more appealing because it is more pleasing to the eye.
I would like to call out bullshit and call out numbers on this too.
You want someone else to compare based on numbers (which is okay), but then you directly state that BW is taking a downhill slope (which is not okay, especially without numbers).
I see Blizzard being a looser already. There's so much anti-Blizzard in Korean media and esport organizations right now that SC2 will never be able to reach the level BW has had. 50% of BW copies were sold in Korea; and only a tiny fraction of SC2 is sold in Korea compared to NA or EU markets.
Progamers, commentators and broastcasting stations must have at least 50% copyright of the broastcasted materials, since they did make 70%-80% of them. Blizzard's game engine can only be considered 20%-30%. So the 50%-50% deal is too good for Blizzard already, I can only see the broastcasting stations win this case. gg.
Well, I'm disappointed to see not much come out of this court session other than better clarification of either side's position. It's good to see the extent of the disagreement, especially in regards to conflicting ideas of "IP rights." IMO, both sides are presenting compelling arguments, though many of the arguments do seem a bit fishy from both sides.
Nevertheless, I just want to see this court case decided one way or the other. Considering the growth of e-sports, especially in Korea, there was bound to be some conflict or debate over the extent of IP rights in broadcasting an e-sport. It is unfortunate that Starcraft had become the game to become the first center of that debate and the conflict that is expected to set a precedence for future e-sports, though it is inevitable for such a conflict to arise considering the rapid and sometimes unstable growth of e-sports.
What most people are arguing is that it doesn't matter if it "promotes e-sports" or if you think its in Blizzards best interest to have SC/BW/SC2 games broadcast. If I own some IP and someone offers me $1 billion to broadcast it, I can still say no. They don't have any kind of right to broadcast it because its in my best interest or they made a really generous offer.
In the end, Blizzard owns the IP to the sound effects, the voice acting, the unit textures, the unit models, the icons, the GUI and even the game mechanics itself. If they want to put conditions on the broadcast of that material, they have that right. I think its dumb for them to play hard ball but that's not the question at hand.
Trolling aside, I do have one question. How is what OGN/MBC/KeSPA doing (financially) different from what incontrol (and many others) does with making money off coaching and commercials on his broadcast channel using a blizzard product? I'm not fishing for a specific response - I just don't know how it's different by law and/or EULA.
OSL/MSL goes one for months right, to reach finals. Now, there was something I read that; KeSPA needs to pay the 'contracted' amount to broadcast BW every time they broadcast this on TV?
I ask this because the post I read about this had a comment regarding this and it implied that Blizzard wanted OSL/MSL to last only for days and KeSPA argued that this is not possible because of the # of games needed to be played to get the quality players to reach the finals.
Blizzard argued against the idea that Starcraft Broadcasts promote and help the industry grow
This is really crazy.. Without all the broadcasts the game would never be that wide-spread, as it is today. IMO Blizzard is really not fair when stating this.
Also,
They pointed out that Blizzard has asked for not just for royalties, but also for fees to run tournaments and broadcasting fees.
Is that a joke ? While they're at it, make us pay if we want to make a private tournament I'm sad to read this, they are too greedy, don't you think ?
Interesting arguments from both sides. Hope that things work out for the best because of this. I'm glad it's being disputed in court as opposed to mbc/ogn just giving blizzard what they want.
On March 19 2011 04:37 Doughboy wrote: Why were there different judges?
Delay tactics by OGN/MBC? If I were a gambling man, I wouldn't be betting on OGN/MBC all that much and they likely know that too, so they are employing as many tactics with hopes to stretch this hopefully long enough for them to milk out as much as they can even if they lose.
Personally I side with Blizzard, not because I love their games (which I do) but because I work in my countries IP office and KESPA/OGN/MBC stance on all this is on a very slippery slope, one that could very easily discourage industry growth for any number of other games, even if in this particular case they present themselves as a helping hand.
This very debate is likely the main reason Blizzard will not back off from giving us LAN support even for huge tournaments.
On March 20 2011 09:21 XsebT wrote: This case will outlast sc2. ^^
Trolling aside, I do have one question. How is what OGN/MBC/KeSPA doing (financially) different from what incontrol (and many others) does with making money off coaching and commercials on his broadcast channel using a blizzard product? I'm not fishing for a specific response - I just don't know how it's different by law and/or EULA.
Thanks a lot for the update, milkis!
the same reason you can sell your car without paying any business taxes but if you try and open a dealership you have to go legit
I'm no law student, but it seems that - apart from bureaucracy and confusing laws - the "right" of the matter depends on two things:
- Blizzard clearly should be allowed to collect (reasonable) royalties for the use of the game. A computer game isn't like a guitar or a spreadsheet program, no matter what you do with it the majority of the "content" is developed by Blizzard. I think the closest analogy would be a radio station playing a song, or maybe better another artist covering a song in concert.
- However, based on esports precedent created (essentially) by Blizzard themselves, royalties should be fairly low and "control" is unreasonable to expect at this point. IIRC the first effort Blizzard made at collecting any money was in 2007 (in retrospect, probably as part of preparation for SC2), meaning the scene had been allowed to exist untouched for 8 or 9 years.
Ideal solution: case is judged that royalties are owed (possibly even back-payments); independent auditor/arbitration is appointed to determine what is reasonable; control remains with the individual tournament organizers*.
* Although I really think we need to allow some sort of reasonable veto from the game maker, in case the KKK or the Illinois Nazis or somebody wants to use a product to run a tournament. But I'm not sure how to do that without it (in this case) instantly being abused by Blizzard/Gretech to veto the MBC/OGN broadcasts.
Hello everyone, brand new to the forums even though I've been visiting this site for years .
I haven't researched the entirety of the issue at hand, so I may be missing some details that would impact my reasoning. However, this issue should be fairly straight forward. All this should really boil down to is: does OGN/MBC/etc violate any guidelines established in the Terms Of Contract and/or the End-User License Agreement? If yes, Blizzard is in the right. If no, OGN/MBC are not in the wrong. All the points they are arguing should have no bearing on the decision. If Blizzard did not have any statements in the EULA - that OGN/MBC agreed to when installing the game on their various systems - that state, in some form, that BW cannot be broadcast/shown/displayed/etc in a public forum without express permission of Blizzard, they have no ground to state that OGN/MBC/all others are violating their IP. Their property is being used in the manner in which it was created for, but with "bystanders" that are observing and commenting on the game in front of them. The same as it would be if it were played at a LAN and people are physically surrounding the computers of the players. The scale of the observing has no bearing on the legality.
Now, if the TOC/EULA does have language that prevents users of their property from displaying/broadcasting the game, whether that be at all or a specific definition of the scale, OGN/MBC would be absolutely wrong.
Now, I am going on a limb that OGN/MBC/GOMTV/whoever are not retards, and that they actually reviewed the TOC/EULA before deciding to fight the matter in court. This would suggest to me that the language is either not in the agreements, or there is language that they intend to dispute (either the legality or wording/ambiguity). Regardless of the points each side makes, the issue should be resolved in the expressed contract that Blizzard has everyone agree to before the game is played. Without reading the TOC/EULA, I would side with OGN/MBC because I doubt they would decide to fight this in court without thoroughly reviewing the contract Blizzard established.
And I doubt that Blizzard is pursuing this for profits resulting from broadcasting. They just want BW to be the secondary game, with SC2 taking the lead role in all tournaments. They know what eSports in Korea did for BW/WoW, so of course they want SC2 to be broadcast on the same scale as BW has been.
Why doesnt OGN/MBC create a program that renders their own artwork from the blizzard game engine and broadcast that? Sure the graphics may be a little different but then all broadcasted content would belong to them. Also at the same time they could make it render better quality graphics, like some awesome cel shaded sprites etc. I know with SC2 blizzard is anal in the EULA about how you modify the game but for broodwar, i am under the impression that if you have bought the game you are free to do whatever you wish with the code you have bought.
Blizzard argued against the idea that Starcraft Broadcasts promote and help the industry grow
This is really crazy.. Without all the broadcasts the game would never be that wide-spread, as it is today. IMO Blizzard is really not fair when stating this.
They pointed out that Blizzard has asked for not just for royalties, but also for fees to run tournaments and broadcasting fees.
Is that a joke ? While they're at it, make us pay if we want to make a private tournament I'm sad to read this, they are too greedy, don't you think ?
You're supposed to get a license from Blizzard for any tournament that you host. Blizzard can charge a fee if they feel like it. They charge a license fee to the OGN/MBC because they make profit from hosting a BW tournament. Sure it comes from the ads, but what brings people to watch the tournament?
On March 20 2011 09:21 XsebT wrote: This case will outlast sc2. ^^
Trolling aside, I do have one question. How is what OGN/MBC/KeSPA doing (financially) different from what incontrol (and many others) does with making money off coaching and commercials on his broadcast channel using a blizzard product? I'm not fishing for a specific response - I just don't know how it's different by law and/or EULA.
Thanks a lot for the update, milkis!
the same reason you can sell your car without paying any business taxes but if you try and open a dealership you have to go legit
One also needs to remember the EULA in these kinds of cases. Blizzard has the right to demand how their software is used. If they so choose, they can prevent it from being broadcast at all.
Also, much like people have to sign papers to be in a movie or televised event which basically states their image and created content can be used to make money.
On March 20 2011 10:02 aimaimaim wrote: Just a question for ANYONE KNOWLEDGEABLE.
OSL/MSL goes one for months right, to reach finals. Now, there was something I read that; KeSPA needs to pay the 'contracted' amount to broadcast BW every time they broadcast this on TV?
I ask this because the post I read about this had a comment regarding this and it implied that Blizzard wanted OSL/MSL to last only for days and KeSPA argued that this is not possible because of the # of games needed to be played to get the quality players to reach the finals.
Blizzard is trying get OSL/MSL qualifiers and up to maybe ro16 to be offline and not broadcast to reduce fees/royalties likely.
On March 21 2011 11:43 aksfjh wrote: One also needs to remember the EULA in these kinds of cases. Blizzard has the right to demand how their software is used. If they so choose, they can prevent it from being broadcast at all.
Also, much like people have to sign papers to be in a movie or televised event which basically states their image and created content can be used to make money.
Sure but there should be a limitation on how much they can get legally in return (which is the point of this case.) I agree with OGN/MBC and think the demands by Blizzard set on them to broadcast multiple tournaments is pretty absurd. If they win that part of the case that is good for esports.
Also to sum up one of the points they are arguing about. "Hey all my friends are watching these tournaments and the game looks really fun. Let's go buy a copy."
I don't agree with the position that after 8-10 years of broadcasting starcraft that Blizzard would just pull the plug on it since it's almost a national sport and be like sorry guys go find something else to do. I don't even care if they "legally" have the right to. I'd just think they were a bunch of dicks from here on out if they did that.
I don't really know anything about Korean law but i would think that Blizzard is going to win this. They have just the rights to the game and how it is shown in the media. You can buy some portion of the rights but still Blizzard is really the boss.
Also i don't think they would shut broadcasts down, they know that it is good for them. I guess they just want to squeeze every dollar they can out of it. If that's not the case they might be thinking about making sc1 less so that some of the shine might go to sc2. Who knows what they really want.
Yes, certainly. The guitar player on the sidewalk who plays for money; let us, the manufacturer of that guitar, take his money or tell him to play somewheres else. Thus spoke Blizzard. I see nothing wrong with this(closes eyes). =S
On March 20 2011 09:21 XsebT wrote: This case will outlast sc2. ^^
Trolling aside, I do have one question. How is what OGN/MBC/KeSPA doing (financially) different from what incontrol (and many others) does with making money off coaching and commercials on his broadcast channel using a blizzard product? I'm not fishing for a specific response - I just don't know how it's different by law and/or EULA.
Thanks a lot for the update, milkis!
Stream are provided for free. Kespa is asking for a bunch of money.
How about the fact that Blizzard was quiet (read: quietly gaining profit) for the past 11 years when they didn't argue about IP rights and now, because they have a new game going, they suddenly bring the topic up? Seriously, just let the 2 games continue along their normal courses. SC2 is already going big in the West, and for fuck's sakes, SCBW is already a cultural thing in South Korea.
On March 20 2011 09:21 XsebT wrote: This case will outlast sc2. ^^
Trolling aside, I do have one question. How is what OGN/MBC/KeSPA doing (financially) different from what incontrol (and many others) does with making money off coaching and commercials on his broadcast channel using a blizzard product? I'm not fishing for a specific response - I just don't know how it's different by law and/or EULA.
Thanks a lot for the update, milkis!
Stream are provided for free. Kespa is asking for a bunch of money.
KeSPA isn't asking for any money. Please check your facts before you say anything like that. All Brood War events are absolutely free. They are broadcast on TV for free to the viewers as well as online and there is no entrance fee to watch any event, whether it is PL, OSL, or MSL. KeSPA does request a broadcasting fee from the stations (MBC and OGN), but as they are a NPO, they reinvest all those funds back into the BW scene. They don't make any direct profit themselves.
To answer XsebT, what OGN and MBC are doing is fundamentally no different, but it is on a much larger scale. It's a matter of economics for Blizzard. They don't have the resources to chase down every small fish that is profiting off their product, but OGN and MBC are a large, easy target. It's the same tactic the MPAA/RIAA use in America when they sue a random person who pirates some music or movie for some ridiculous amount, hoping to scare off all the other people who have done the same thing.
You think people would call Blizzard crazy for chasing this. What do they have to gain from all of this? They already saw the effects of all of this, WCG's main sponsor Samsung won't promote any Blizzard games, which are the biggest on stage, (aside from Counter Strike ).
It's more of a big loss then any real gain in the end of it. I just don't see the reason behind all of this honestly. Blizzard attacking 2 big Korean TV stations along with Team Sponsors, whom are also very big in Korea is... complete insanity.
Blizzard can say all they want regards to the "real" reason for it but they keep doing this they will continue to label themselves as the bad people. While Kespa is no saint either, at least there trying to keep BW alive, not crap like this. Don't know if I will ever look at Blizzard in the same way as I have in the past.
how much longer this gonna go on? sc2 be an old game by the time they finally agree on something, and i don't even know who's side i'm on anymore... seems like two small children arguing over a toy.
Hopefully a compromise can be reached through the mediators, possibly stating that though neither side is entirely right, neither side is entirely wrong either.
Keep in mind this is Blizzard Activision, not the good-old-Blizzard.
The Blizzard that made Starcraft: Broodwar was a very different company, and while I can't speak on their behalf, I would venture to say that they would have been content with their game being a top-seller for a decade. I highly doubt the developers would object if they were to learn that TV broadcasting matches of teams with separate sponsors lead droves of young korean boys to snatch up copies of their game for 10 years. "Blizzard" is on the boot-up screen every single time.
Dig around for all that Activision has done in their acquisitions..
On March 19 2011 05:07 Chairman Ray wrote: I really hate how they're using juvenile arguments like comparing esports to the movie/music industry. Esports is not an equivalent in any way. Broadcasting sc games is not like broadcasting movies and music without permission. If anything, letting people watch movies or listen to music without permission would be equivalent to letting people fully play sc for free. Letting people watch sc matches is like letting people look at other people listening to music, which is kinda dumb. Esports cannot be equated to conventional sports either because no conventional sport is copyrighted.
I'm fairly certain Blizzard is going to come out ahead in this. You can't broadcast copyrighted material without permisssion, even if it's just logos or trailers. For example, if I make a product and then that product shows up in a Justin Bieber music video, I am able to sue him, even if it's just product placement and not giving away the product. As the legal owner of the product, I have control over how the product is advertised or displayed in the media. Blizzard has full control over how their product is advertised and displayed on the media, regardless if they are profiting or not. I really think Blizzard should just let OGN/MBC do their thing since they're not getting harmed by it, but if they wish to sue, they are able to do it.
It's an interesting point you bring up. Do you actually have control over your product's display? It would be interesting for someone familiar with South Korean law to say so. In USA, you don't have that right, just look at all the car insurance and car commercials (even cleaning product commercials do this) doing comparisons. With this point, you are saying that the broadcasts/games are derivative works and are thus subject to original work's author's ownership and copyrights.
I very much agree with you on the first point. No type of sport ever in history of humanity had any kind of ownership to it. Basketball is the closest sport that has a real author behind it. The question is: Can you copyright/patent/protect a sport, whether it is a mind sport (similar to poker and chess) or an athletic sport (similar to basketball and football). There is something that is similar to the current video game competitions though. Magic The Gathering is similar to Starcraft2 in that there is one entity which profits from selling the equipment. Wizards of the Coast, however, have their own tournaments as well.
Blizzard is being way too greedy here. According to them, every movie, drama, concert and broadcasted sports were illegal because they contain products manufactured by other companies without paying said companies. Film makers don't have to manufacture their own props just to make films legally so what right does Blizzard have to charge OGN and MBC? The broadcasting companies already paid them by buying their games.
Just because it is on the EULA does not make it supersede any existing laws. It has to be defensible in court. And even then it varies from court to court.
Sc would just have been an RTS like any other RTS with out OGN/MBC blizzard didn't care until they came around to harvest what OGN/MBC had kept alive since they first planted the starcraft seed. It's ridiculous really. Blizzard do own it so that makes them the owner of everything made with their product in my eyes. But then again it's such a dick move of them. It's simply appalling what they're doing. Ah well hope that they can come to an agreement. Because getting rid of BW from Korean TV isn't going to make SC2 that attractive in the eyes of the koreans or at least so I think.
On March 22 2011 17:26 bias- wrote: Keep in mind this is Blizzard Activision, not the good-old-Blizzard.
The Blizzard that made Starcraft: Broodwar was a very different company, and while I can't speak on their behalf, I would venture to say that they would have been content with their game being a top-seller for a decade. I highly doubt the developers would object if they were to learn that TV broadcasting matches of teams with separate sponsors lead droves of young korean boys to snatch up copies of their game for 10 years. "Blizzard" is on the boot-up screen every single time.
Dig around for all that Activision has done in their acquisitions..
I would venture to say that you haven't looked into who is the Blizzard that made SC2 and who made SCBW. They're essentially the same team, there's just a heck a lot more of them this time. They lost a couple a long the way like Bill Roper. But by and large it's the same gaming geeks that they accumulated over 20 years.
Compare the credits on your respective boxes and you'll note the continuity of names (plus a lot more).
It seems a few people have been misunderstanding Blizzard's 3rd argument which seems a little vague. I would read it that violating ip rights has nothing to do with promoting the industry. Rather than broadcasting itself does not promote the industry- which is nonsensical. Essentially, Blizzard pursuing ip rights doesn't hurt the industry because they'd still be able to broadcast so long as the ip issue is addressed. (IP has no bearing on whether the broadcast will fail or not- just on whether it is legal or not.)
EPT
i wanna know what happens!
I'm sad to read this, they are too greedy, don't you think ?
