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Everybody needs to take a step back and take a breather. Especially the ones going "They just announced a SC2 league in the west and you guys are being critical?"
Yes, they have every right to be critical because Incontrol himself said in the interview with G4 that it's going to take community involvement in order for this to take off and become something big. Most of the "criticalness" that's been presented so far has been really good feedback that hopefully Incontrol and the crew take to heart and move to make things better.
I really agree with the first impression post that was a few pages back, the showmatch was supposed to get people excited about a starcraft league and the production value of it looked horrible. Down to the windows media player transitions and the horrible font of "Clash of the Titans". Especially when there is a program that keeps score and allows you to put overlay pictures up made from a TL user that looks a ton more professional than what was shown.
It all comes back to the hype that was thrown at the announcement and the "it's going to be big", you start setting people's expectations up and when it comes nowhere close to that people are going to become critical. Will things change for the NASL? I'm pretty confident that they will and like I posted earlier in this thread, I'll be supporting it because it's a huge baby-step for eSports in the West.
((As for the actual showmatch and the complaints about it being Replay vs Live it just comes down to mute points. Guess what, by definition they were showing things Live to us for the first time no matter if they were casting replays or what. While there are a lot of indicators (Replay bar/transitions/Incontrol comments/etc) it just comes down to the fact of why you need to care that much anyway. The biggest issue was the sync issue and the buffering issue that happened to some people. I watched it perfectly fine but I had friends go "Oh Incontrol just said this huge force was goin to do something and then it juttered and Idra gg'd" and laugh it off and make production jokes the same way the crew made fun of HuK and Kelly during the Code A games.
First impressions means a lot in the business world, so we'll see.
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The replay bar is usually a good indication that it was cast from replays. I don't know why people are upset about that, though. Idra and Jin'ro are both in Korea. All casting live would do is add technical difficulties to the actual games.
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Dear Incontrol,
Thank you so much for taking the effort to start up this NASL. I really look forward to what you can do with the NASL. Here is my feedback on the NASL, as well as last nights show-match stream.
My interpretation of the show-match is that it was as much a tech-demo/test for the upcoming NASL casts as it was a match between two great players. Based on that, here are my thoughts
1. From the eastern US, I had zero issues with the Justin.tv stream. The video quality was excellent. It definitely shows that you have put a lot of effort into working with Justin.tv to make sure the stream has the necessary bandwidth.
2. The addition of yourself and Gretorp on a side video at the bottom corner was an especially nice touch. Also, the brief shots of the players was very nice. I hope that both of these are features that continue in the NASL casts.
3. The sound desync was a major issue. I have no idea what caused it, but this needs to be avoided.
4. As far as the casting goes, I felt you and gretorp did a great job. The only thing I would prefer would be a little more energy in your casting, as I really feels this adds excitement. The games weren't the best for being able to get excited all the time, but I would still like more energy.
As for the NASL itself,
5. I REALLY like the idea of the 10 man group stage. I think this is a great addition to the NASL, and also distinguishes it from other tournaments. I'm not sure about the rest of the community, but I'm tired of seeing a 128 or 256 or whatever man tournament over and over again. Even the GSL basically feels like this, since the group stages are only four players each.
6. As we saw with the hissyfit surrounding the Blizzcon invites, its very important to release the information about how players can qualify for the tournament as soon as possible. This also holds true for how players can stay in the tournament field for the next round (a la staying in code S).
7. While we would likely prefer live, I don't think theres anything wrong with casting from replays should you need to within the group stage.
8.While I realize you have stated that teh voting does not count, I dont think there's anything wrong with the idea inviting X players based off fan voting, especially for the first tournament. In the future, its probably not the best idea, but I think it would be a good way to drum up some excitement for the first round of the tournament.
9. While it may be too much of a time commitment right now, I think the idea of a weekly roundup (something like a sportscenter) of the action that week in the tournament would be fantastic. Most people aren't going to be able to watch every match in a week. Most of those people aren't going to want to spend the time digging through threads on TL to find results. However, if you have something like a weekly roundup, you can keep more of the causal watchers interested in the tournaments. Growth of e-sports is all about bring new people into the fold, and that means producing content that is digestible by more than the small percent of population that reads TL.
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On February 22 2011 22:29 Myia wrote:
I dont think that $20 for 5 matches 5 times a week for 9 weeks, and then an open, plus finals, so, what, about 300 games? is at all a ridiculous fee. Infact, it works out alot cheaper than GSL, and look how many people they have watching that (alot).
Nobody cares how many games there are if they are of shit quality. Would you pay extra to see code A? Even more to see code B? No, you wouldn't. Would you say to someone who gets NFL Sunday Ticket that you're getting a relative bargain by paying for the college football package? I mean, it has more games right?
This tournament will be lucky to feature even three players of Code S caliber, the only people that will pay to watch it are the very hardcore fans. This price point will practically ensure that NASL doesn't grow from its fanbase on TL, and when Starcraft is only played professionally in Korea in 5 years we'll point to this failure as the reason why.
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Am I missing something, or how is whether they cast from replays or live relevant to anything? Ive seen plenty of replays cast with both good and bad results, just like I've done with live casts.
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On February 22 2011 23:41 cubicle47b wrote:
The replay bar is usually a good indication that it was cast from replays. I don't know why people are upset about that, though. Idra and Jin'ro are both in Korea. All casting live would do is add technical difficulties to the actual games.
Well this had all of the down sides of casting replays but none of the upsides, such as being able to verify that what you're recording is actually good. Maybe they did and couldn't be arsed to redo it I don't know. However if this is indeed 10 days old then there is just no excuse for not doing that.
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Im looking at this as a test, nothing more, nothing less. This pointless replay discussion asside, this was a good way for them to get some responses, look at the show themselves, and now they have some weeks to weed out quirks, smaller and bigger.
Hopefully this will go well, so much promise in this project, and if they get off to a decent start, it could grow to be something we will all love ^^
I for one didnt watch it to catch all the flaws and whatnot, and even if I noticed some, im not gonna judge them preemptively because of that, in my eyes, this was just a, as stated, a test.
Now, nobody would have issues with critisicm, but please, for the love of all thats holy, dont turn this into yet another fest where its just a bunch of nerds being angry at eachother, trying to get the last word -.-
Its probably to late for that though 
Anyways, this shows great promise and I hope it turns out awesome!
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YouarrgettingtheverycomprehensibleandknowledgebleDiggityasacommentatorforNASLareyousureaboutitisn'tthereanyoneelsebetter?
I would name who I prefer but I don't want to appear to be a die-hard biased fan of someone else. But rather someone who speaks from his experience of listening to that commentator.
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I'm guessing the matches took place earlier in the day or maybe the day before. I won't pretend to understand what happened with the production. That is a completely separate issue, though.
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On February 22 2011 23:45 Kreb wrote:
Am I missing something, or how is whether they cast from replays or live relevant to anything? Ive seen plenty of replays cast with both good and bad results, just like I've done with live casts.
I think the dissapointment regarding casting replays comes from two things:
1. The pre-hype of this was huge and there was an understanding from nearly all of us watching the show that this was going to be a live event. Live as in "Jinro and Idra is playing right this moment". Not live as in "their replays are casted live".
2. The synching problem hadn't been that huge of a deal if this was "Incontrols friends and family tournament from his room". But since the hype was so big, and it turned out to be an awesome news as in a 400k league kicking off in the west the amateurish mistakes/and problems are less forgiving.
People, in their rights, are concerned that if you can't even make the production of a showmatch, you have hyped and prepared for weeks, near perfect how are you going to run a 400k league?
I, on the other hand, "am glad" about the mistakes they made. It's better that they make the mistakes now and learn from them instead of making these mistakes when the league starts.
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Best of luck to Geoff and others launching this. I really hope they're looking at this as just an adventure, and not necessarily a business investment; see GSL/GOMTV. To be frank, if the production value from last nights game was indicative, as a business it will simply fizzle. The casting will get better feedback; we're all partial to casters we've followed for a long time. But, even MLG never had such resounding success here, and that has nothing to do with the prize pool, or even if Day9 & Wheat were casting, imho. People simply want to see and pay for the best play; the Korean scene simply exudes professionalism - from the team houses to their methodical play to the production studios. Watching NA & Euro players is kind of unorthodox; which is intriguing and fun on its own at times. But, most other matches look like a pick up game of futbol with your friends at the park. I think that's the perception hurdle you have here, but I would capitalize on that perception difference, and make it work somehow. Here's to wishing you success in NA as a business.
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On February 22 2011 23:58 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 23:45 Kreb wrote:
Am I missing something, or how is whether they cast from replays or live relevant to anything? Ive seen plenty of replays cast with both good and bad results, just like I've done with live casts. I think the dissapointment regarding casting replays comes from two things: 1. The pre-hype of this was huge and there was an understanding from nearly all of us watching the show that this was going to be a live event. Live as in "Jinro and Idra is playing right this moment". Not live as in "their replays are casted live". 2. The synching problem hadn't been that huge of a deal if this was "Incontrols friends and family tournament from his room". But since the hype was so big, and it turned out to be an awesome news as in a 400k league kicking off in the west the amateurish mistakes/and problems are less forgiving. People, in their rights, are concerned that if you can't even make the production of a showmatch, you have hyped and prepared for weeks, near perfect how are you going to run a 400k league? I, on the other hand, "am glad" about the mistakes they made. It's better that they make the mistakes now and learn from them instead of making these mistakes when the league starts.
I agree; i think everything was great besides the sync issue. Some people are disappointing by a cast of a replay, but mentioned before, that would cause technical problems because of geographic locations of IdrA and Jinro.
The production is only going to get better by learning from mistakes and improving on them; like you said.
This is the FIRST major tournament in NA; things can only get better  Gotta think on the bright side sometimes instead of bashing and being negative ALL the time.
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i think the hype on this is just cause of the money..
look at TSL3 its going to be EPIC
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I liked everything up to the $20-$25 for one season. That would pay for TWO GSL seasons. I really want SC2 to take over North America as anyone, but that is a really high price for such a new, unproven tournament. I don't see them getting as many people to pay.
I know they say they are going to have much more content, but we don't even know what that really means. It could just be some cheesy player interviews for all we know. Until it's a proven high level production tournament such as GSL, don't even think of expecting people to pay that much.
You guys hyped this up really well, and got a whole lot of attention, but that's not enough to justify such a high price.
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Very skeptical about the NASL. Obviously there are the concerns about quality from all the issues that came with the showmatch, but there's more to it. Western players won't deliver the quality of games we're used to from the GSL, and 20$ for a season ticket is a bit much considering game quality, production value and commentary will all lag behind GSL, at least in season 1.
So far the main argument is "omg 400k $" but that doesn't really amaze me. Several tournaments with high prize money have been won by sloppy play over the past months of SC2 just because there were no real contenders for the money. And several other "league" formats like the Black Dragon League aren't half as exciting as I'd hoped they would be.
I don't want to needlessly bash it all; I think the concept is a very good one and a successful western SC2 league could be a great addition. But at the very best they've got a tremendous amount of work to do before this can actually deliver decent entertainment, and I'm not sure they'll manage to do so before April.
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Let me add something to my other statement.
Another huge problem I have with this is that the games, as far as I can tell, are going to be casted from replays. This causes mainly 2 huge problems.
1. The games will ALWAYS be spoiled by anyone that can look at the players match history. If you don't know ANYONE can look at any players match history so expect spoiled results right form the start.
2. When games are casted from replays it is very often that the two casters are out of sync during the game. They always start shouting something exciting when on our screen... nothing is going on.
The only real, exciting, fun games to watch will the be finals. When you have a LAN setting, everything changes. The games just get so much more exciting when you can see the players and knowing you're right there with them watching their every move. It adds pressure and excitement.
Hopefully everyone involved doesn't take this as needless bashing or hating. The reason we are all posting so many details about every little thing is because we WANT THIS SO BADLY TO SUCCEED. Just take it as criticism and hopefully we can see it in the final product.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On February 23 2011 00:14 imaROBOT wrote:
Let me add something to my other statement.
Another huge problem I have with this is that the games, as far as I can tell, are going to be casted from replays. This causes mainly 2 huge problems.
1. The games will ALWAYS be spoiled by anyone that can look at the players match history. If you don't know ANYONE can look at any players match history so expect spoiled results right form the start.
2. When games are casted from replays it is very often that the two casters are out of sync during the game. They always start shouting something exciting when on our screen... nothing is going on.
The only real, exciting, fun games to watch will the be finals. When you have a LAN setting, everything changes. The games just get so much more exciting when you can see the players and knowing you're right there with them watching their every move. It adds pressure and excitement.
Fortunately, you are wrong, and all games will be casted live.
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On February 23 2011 00:17 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 00:14 imaROBOT wrote:
Let me add something to my other statement.
Another huge problem I have with this is that the games, as far as I can tell, are going to be casted from replays. This causes mainly 2 huge problems.
1. The games will ALWAYS be spoiled by anyone that can look at the players match history. If you don't know ANYONE can look at any players match history so expect spoiled results right form the start.
2. When games are casted from replays it is very often that the two casters are out of sync during the game. They always start shouting something exciting when on our screen... nothing is going on.
The only real, exciting, fun games to watch will the be finals. When you have a LAN setting, everything changes. The games just get so much more exciting when you can see the players and knowing you're right there with them watching their every move. It adds pressure and excitement. Fortunately, you are wrong, and all games will be casted live.
Okay that is awesome, thank you. Sorry for my lack of knowledge.
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On February 23 2011 00:14 imaROBOT wrote:
Let me add something to my other statement.
Another huge problem I have with this is that the games, as far as I can tell, are going to be casted from replays. This causes mainly 2 huge problems.
1. The games will ALWAYS be spoiled by anyone that can look at the players match history. If you don't know ANYONE can look at any players match history so expect spoiled results right form the start.
2. When games are casted from replays it is very often that the two casters are out of sync during the game. They always start shouting something exciting when on our screen... nothing is going on.
The only real, exciting, fun games to watch will the be finals. When you have a LAN setting, everything changes. The games just get so much more exciting when you can see the players and knowing you're right there with them watching their every move. It adds pressure and excitement.
thats why i like to watch GSL the players are right there you can see how they look like and if they are stressed confident before the games..
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God people stop comparing the price to GSL. GSL is for 4 weeks and NASL season is 10, so the price 25 $ is realistic
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EPT
