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On January 22 2011 21:45 tdt wrote:
IdrA's QQing belies the statistics.
ELO top 20 more z than p
Korean ladder top 20 more z than p
GSL's like this one z makes it further than p and they won 2, p one
Terran pretty much dominates every stat but GSL wins for some reason but that will change this season and I think it's fair to say they are most powerful but the difference between p and z is nominal, both weaker but both with some success as well.
Sample size too small. P has an advantage over Z given current play- so many different options for Z to prepare for. It's all a question of the P's execution. Of course Z can win if P is sloppy. Totally agree with Idra when he says any competent P would beat Z, where competent actually means very very good and not screwing up their build/micro.
Perhaps given perfect play, never overreaching, always hitting inject, maximal creep spread, perfect build order and positioning/battle micro.... zerg would dominate protoss. After all, protoss is somewhat immobile save for phoenix. Who knows though, zerg definitely has problems right now against the other races.
The thing that protoss has over zerg is that less maps are auto death for them as compared to for zerg.
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On January 22 2011 19:53 emkro wrote:
cry me a river idra, mappool isn't everything.
Oh and to all Terrans out there. All you have to do against Zerg is to build bunkers at their ramp, and that will win you the game, idra approved. No, to be honest, I think Idra really needs to change his mindset. Going into a match with the feeling that "I'm gonna loose because of this shitty map" isn't the very best way to deal with that kind of situation.
Agreed for the most part, but you have to take into account the tournament setting. You don't want to waste time exhausting yourself trying to catch up from being behind on economy, and tech, on positions that don't favour you, if you think it will hurt your overall chances. What I mean is Greg likely knows himself well enough to say "alright, if I play this out and lose, which is the likely outcome, it will hurt my chances even more in following games."
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funny how ppl still deny it. maps could change a lot, but right now terran is the best race. just look at the foreigner scene, where terran has been dominating hardcore for a long time. and imo that is because the foreign scene is ahead of the korean scene in terms of game understanding (aka abusing the imbalances). Idra and Jinro tearing it up in GSL kinda shows you that (not to diminish their individual skill). with some accommodation time i bet you ro32 gsl would be half korean / half foreigners if not more foreigners than koreans. asian culture was always more about copying a master and perfecting things through extreme dedication, not really about innovation, creativity and risktaking which western culture excels at. right now, I regard the foreign scene to be higher in game understanding than the asian scene and dont let my judgement be clouded by hype and price money. I know these are pretty strong statements, but like the gracken, I dont hold back with what I think and dont care about being flamed or regarded silly.
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On January 23 2011 01:19 CScythe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 19:53 emkro wrote:
cry me a river idra, mappool isn't everything.
Oh and to all Terrans out there. All you have to do against Zerg is to build bunkers at their ramp, and that will win you the game, idra approved. No, to be honest, I think Idra really needs to change his mindset. Going into a match with the feeling that "I'm gonna loose because of this shitty map" isn't the very best way to deal with that kind of situation. Agreed for the most part, but you have to take into account the tournament setting. You don't want to waste time exhausting yourself trying to catch up from being behind on economy, and tech, on positions that don't favour you, if you think it will hurt your overall chances. What I mean is Greg likely knows himself well enough to say "alright, if I play this out and lose, which is the likely outcome, it will hurt my chances even more in following games."
I agree, but leaving so early can be bad for your moral afterward, if you lose the serie and start wondering "what if...". Then you have regrets and it can have a bad effect on the morale of an competitor. Not sure it is the case, but after that quick gg idra seemed a little tilted. I know artosis said he wasn't, be he still looked a little tilted to me.
Perhaps it's better to finish the game on autopilot, I mean, idra make 5 hour longs playing sessions, he won't exhaust himself finishing a game when he has nothing to lose and everything to win.
Point is, I can understand him, but I think it's a wrong mindset for a high level player.
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On January 23 2011 01:38 diehilde wrote:
funny how ppl still deny it. maps could change a lot, but right now terran is the best race. just look at the foreigner scene, where terran has been dominating hardcore for a long time. and imo that is because the foreign scene is ahead of the korean scene in terms of game understanding (aka abusing the imbalances). Idra and Jinro tearing it up in GSL kinda shows you that (not to diminish their individual skill). with some accommodation time i bet you ro32 gsl would be half korean / half foreigners if not more foreigners than koreans. asian culture was always more about copying a master and perfecting things through extreme dedication, not really about innovation, creativity and risktaking which western culture excels at. right now, I regard the foreign scene to be higher in game understanding than the asian scene and dont let my judgement be clouded by hype and price money. I know these are pretty strong statements, but like the gracken, I dont hold back with what I think and dont care about being flamed or regarded silly.
no
lol
foreigners dont even know proper build orders for half the abusive stuff they try to do. koreans have just refined all of the abuse so much that theyve figured out better and easier builds, and all of the top players have figured out how to defend them efficiently, when possible. you dont see a lot of the tactics from koreans that you do from foreigners because theyre not actually viable vs people with a better understanding of the game. drop 99% of foreigners into code S and they would get destroyed until they adapted.
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His wearing his leather gracket!
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On January 23 2011 01:55 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 01:38 diehilde wrote:
funny how ppl still deny it. maps could change a lot, but right now terran is the best race. just look at the foreigner scene, where terran has been dominating hardcore for a long time. and imo that is because the foreign scene is ahead of the korean scene in terms of game understanding (aka abusing the imbalances). Idra and Jinro tearing it up in GSL kinda shows you that (not to diminish their individual skill). with some accommodation time i bet you ro32 gsl would be half korean / half foreigners if not more foreigners than koreans. asian culture was always more about copying a master and perfecting things through extreme dedication, not really about innovation, creativity and risktaking which western culture excels at. right now, I regard the foreign scene to be higher in game understanding than the asian scene and dont let my judgement be clouded by hype and price money. I know these are pretty strong statements, but like the gracken, I dont hold back with what I think and dont care about being flamed or regarded silly. no lol foreigners dont even know proper build orders for half the abusive stuff they try to do. koreans have just refined all of the abuse so much that theyve figured out better and easier builds, and all of the top players have figured out how to defend them efficiently, when possible. you dont see a lot of the tactics from koreans that you do from foreigners because theyre not actually viable vs people with a better understanding of the game. drop 99% of foreigners into code S and they would get destroyed until they adapted.
Thats why I said with some accomodation time. Of course right now koreans are better, but thats because they grind that much more. Let a foreigner grind the same amount of time and the results will be better. When I watch ZvT on delta or jb in code S, I dont see any T (apart from MVP) abuse the maps as well as Jinro. Foreigners dont know the build orders cus they dont train as extensively and methodically for the most part, but when they do (as Jinro does, which I know cus i practised a ton with him early beta), they would get better results. If you really think there are not at least some top foreigners out there who could accomplish a similar level of success as you or Jinro, you must be delusional. Look at SC:BW, the best players were foreigners in the beginning. Only when it became hugely popular in korea, the koreans overtook the foreigners. Now look at SC2 - its not nearly as popular in korea as in the foreign scene.
PS: and im not sure why you mention perfect BOs when talking about game understanding. Thats not game understanding in my book. Game understanding is more like the general concept of what units to build for what reason on which map, not finding out the exact bo for it. When I see code S terrans blindly go 2 rax with scvs on JB thats just bad game understanding imo, cus they are taking unneccessary risks on a map that is autowin if you play the macro game right.
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Thanks for the interview, I was curious why he left so fast. Indeed, he quickly calculated what would happen after the double bunker, and he saw an unwinnable position. Against some schmuck he might have pulled through, but I think he shows Jinro the respect he deserves in saying he is not going to come back against dr. Gorilla.
I do think it's a bit peculiar there's so few zergs in Code S, and If you look at both semifinals for Code A and S, 7 out of 8 are terran. This might point to some balance issues, however I tend do believe, as some people have pointed out, that this is largely due to more players picking terran. Or perhaps top terran players like mvp, nada, clide, etc... are just better than some of their protoss or zerg counterparts?
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I love how all the players who are trying to argue against idra seem to be a world class pro player and knows more than idra does. Let me tell you this, NO you don't. He's talking from personal experience and his personal experience is from the highest skill level of players in the game right now. Surely if there was a way to figure this out through new and revised build orders, just better play or whatever he himself can do to "counter this" he would be one to do it. But that hasn't happened yet so I can't help but agree with him right now.
Oh and thanks for the great interview artosis!
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On January 22 2011 03:14 H0i wrote:
Nice interview.
Now talking about idra, I think he's just too much of a whiner. This constant whining of zerg being too weak is not going to change anything, if he keeps thinking his race is weak then that's not going to make him win more.
No, but makes thousands aware of an issue, and those thousands whine. Blizzard is receptive to mass whine.
Still, it's not like the things he's saying aren't true. Protos air builds nowdays are pretty ridiculous.
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Sweet interview. Thanks Artosis.=D
And it's true about the Toss air builds. Especially since the Phoenix buff.
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nice interview thanks artosis
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On January 23 2011 01:55 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 01:38 diehilde wrote:
funny how ppl still deny it. maps could change a lot, but right now terran is the best race. just look at the foreigner scene, where terran has been dominating hardcore for a long time. and imo that is because the foreign scene is ahead of the korean scene in terms of game understanding (aka abusing the imbalances). Idra and Jinro tearing it up in GSL kinda shows you that (not to diminish their individual skill). with some accommodation time i bet you ro32 gsl would be half korean / half foreigners if not more foreigners than koreans. asian culture was always more about copying a master and perfecting things through extreme dedication, not really about innovation, creativity and risktaking which western culture excels at. right now, I regard the foreign scene to be higher in game understanding than the asian scene and dont let my judgement be clouded by hype and price money. I know these are pretty strong statements, but like the gracken, I dont hold back with what I think and dont care about being flamed or regarded silly. no lol foreigners dont even know proper build orders for half the abusive stuff they try to do. koreans have just refined all of the abuse so much that theyve figured out better and easier builds, and all of the top players have figured out how to defend them efficiently, when possible. you dont see a lot of the tactics from koreans that you do from foreigners because theyre not actually viable vs people with a better understanding of the game. drop 99% of foreigners into code S and they would get destroyed until they adapted.
I really feel bad for IdrA having to explain this stuff to people who are probably too stupid too get it anyway. But ... hes going to try anyway.
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Video goes out of sync toward the end. Good interview though.
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I wonder why IdrA really thinks zerg is THAT bad, and why he doesn't switch if it's so terrible.
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This is the first time that I've seen, or I guess heard, IdrA analyze his own play and based on only ever experiencing him rage-quit, I have somewhat of a new respect for him. Though it still bothers me that at his level of play, and exposure, that he will rage-quit, I appreciate the fact that he also owns up to when he knows he got lucky in a game, or probably shouldn't have won and then appreciates the fact that he was able to. Great interview. Thank you very much. Keep up the great work!
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On January 23 2011 02:35 GodsGiftToCSS wrote:
I wonder why IdrA really thinks zerg is THAT bad, and why he doesn't switch if it's so terrible.
Switching race is hard. You have to start basically from scratch ( look at the morrow ladder jpeg to learn more) and even more, if Zerg gets buffed (which will eventually happen) it's gonna be sad.
Switching races is a short term solution, and Idra tends to be a longterm minded individual.
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On January 23 2011 02:35 GodsGiftToCSS wrote:
I wonder why IdrA really thinks zerg is THAT bad, and why he doesn't switch if it's so terrible.
Switching is a lot harder then it seems, if he were to switch he would not be good enough to play in tournaments such as GSL for a good month or longer.
ya it sucks that zerg is so weak right now, but amazing of how well idra did despite of that.
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Idra, next time artosis tries to sneak in another "cliiiiiiiiiiiide the best player in the universe" tell him that hes wrong and that bitbybitprime is in fact a better player.
Dan would get so angry that you would have to prepare a duck to dodge his punch.
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EPT
