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Calgary26003 Posts
I'm super interested to see how this plays out.
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and of course this would be from fomos 
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On November 05 2010 00:25 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 00:18 C.W. wrote:And Blizzard sure does the right thing - it's their damn property. €dit: "- stop saying "illegal, illegal", if they fans want it, they have all the rights to broadcast!" This is ridiculous. No you are ridiculous. Basically ALL the games you play at the moment does NOT belong to you. It is still the game companies's properties. Would you really want that? Stop posting stuff that you have no clue about.
You're a freaking retard. Buying a game does not give you the IP rights to it.
Did you actually read any of the freaking agreements you agreed to?
You just pay for that you are allowed to play the game.
And that is sure ok with me.
Idiot.
User was warned for this post
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I also thought OGN had negotiated rights?? This is heart breaking at times.. Blizz..
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On November 05 2010 00:25 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 00:18 C.W. wrote:And Blizzard sure does the right thing - it's their damn property. €dit: "- stop saying "illegal, illegal", if they fans want it, they have all the rights to broadcast!" This is ridiculous. No you are ridiculous. Basically ALL the games you play at the moment does NOT belong to you. It is still the game companies's properties. Would you really want that? Stop posting stuff that you have no clue about.
how is that relevant? me enjoying a company's game in the privacy of my home and using the game as a foundation to collect revenue are two completely different things.
there is a shocking amount of Blizzard blaming going on here, and while I agree that it sucks and neither party is completely innocent, I know who I would be madder at.
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On November 05 2010 00:28 C.W. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 00:20 HeaDStrong wrote:On November 05 2010 00:06 oneofthem wrote:On November 04 2010 23:38 HeaDStrong wrote:On November 04 2010 23:29 oneofthem wrote:
people need to understand that by "protecting" their rights, it means "extract greatest revenue from" their rights. which may or may not involve killing sc1 and the way kespa does business, which is obviously a no go in a sc2 progaming scene that blizzard has a stake in. kespa sanctions tournaments by controlling the progamers. how can blizzard tolerate some other entity controlling the way their progaming scene is run?
whether the intent is to kill sc1 or not depends on how much money they are asking. if it is high enough to be uncollectible, then obviously they are trying to kill sc1. if it is a sum that still allows ogn etc to do business, then it's something else.
well in your post you jump to the conclusion that blizzard has the rights in the first place, in that case you are correct. but what most of us are arguing about whether they actually do have those rights. Creating a computer game does not automatically create a huge scene with loads of sponsored teams, televised matches and high level play. this is where the fight is right now. they haven't won the case so far and claimed the rights to be theirs. so your described situation becomes more like them suing a competitor because it hurts their revenue. you seem to be implying that an organization like kespa has legitimacy because it exists apart from the effort blizzard put into bw. this is not the case legally speaking. still, i was not talking about legitimacy at all, just the economic and business logic at work. the legal rights are a tool to be wielded for business ends. blizzard's legal situation did not change from 2000 to today, what has changed is that they have a stake in progaming now that they've devised a way to extract revenue from it. now, kespa is not exactly your community cooperative sc league. they are quite aggressive in using the power of licensing as well, to the extent of coercing players. i don't have a horse in this race as far as the companies are concerned, i'm just not sure how the players and fans would be treated in the process. All I was saying is that I am not fully convinced that by creating a video game you automatically own everything that is created by it. I don't think blizzard gets much credit for all the fangirls going crazy and shouting when Flash used a d-matrixed dropship as an elevator to load Jaedongs base full with MnM and take out his tech. Or do you think all the fans turned up to that even because how awesomely Blizzard had designed all those sprites. You see what I mean? What OGN/MBC/KeSPA are selling is not quite what Blizzard had produced. Sure Blizzard deserves a part of the cake, but from what I recall their requests in the negotiations wasn't a piece of the cake, it was the whole cake and also the knife and all the plates to serve it. In my view this is unreasonable from them and they are waaay in the wrong here. I agree that KeSPA is a nasty organization, but KeSPA is a representative organization of all the pro teams involved. If KeSPA loses, the core of esports is gone and I am sure as hell Blizzard will not replace it. What happens from then is rather unpredictable but certainly not for good. If you create something you are the IP holder. It's your property and is handled like any other property as well. And in case Blizzards wants the whole cake or just a part of it does not change anything. It's their right. StarCraft was successively selling even b4 the whole esports thing started - Kespa did not make the game successful - they just milked it to make good money for their own without respecting Blizzards rights. Legally this case is clear.
Without Kespa keeping the hype up for the game, people will NEVER buy SC2. Kespa DID make the game successful, without it, there will definitely be another organization at the same situation now with Blizzard. Kespa did not try to resell the game but only try to broadcast it and OH without Kespa, Koreans won't be as involved in this game and wouldn't buy more than half of sales that BW did. And according to them, they didn't make as much profit as you think, they are barely breaking it even with the money they gained.
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On November 05 2010 00:25 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 00:18 C.W. wrote:And Blizzard sure does the right thing - it's their damn property. €dit: "- stop saying "illegal, illegal", if they fans want it, they have all the rights to broadcast!" This is ridiculous. No you are ridiculous. Basically ALL the games you play at the moment does NOT belong to you. It is still the game companies's properties. Would you really want that? Stop posting stuff that you have no clue about.
Hate to break it to you bro but that's actually the case and has been since the birth of the games industry. You buy a license to play a game and the physical media upon which it's on but you don't own the game itself. The only reason it's becoming more of a focal point issue is because of an amalgamation of factors including easy of piracy, massive growth of the industry and even stuff like eSports where live competitions with licensing have been around way longer than Starcraft (for reference see the great and fantastic film The Wizard!). There's probably ways around it but not in the current legal system, otherwise it becomes a huge issue to prevent people from commercially pirating your games (as a developer/publisher) because you can't prove ownership and/or copyright.
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On November 05 2010 00:32 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 00:28 C.W. wrote:On November 05 2010 00:20 HeaDStrong wrote:On November 05 2010 00:06 oneofthem wrote:On November 04 2010 23:38 HeaDStrong wrote:On November 04 2010 23:29 oneofthem wrote:
people need to understand that by "protecting" their rights, it means "extract greatest revenue from" their rights. which may or may not involve killing sc1 and the way kespa does business, which is obviously a no go in a sc2 progaming scene that blizzard has a stake in. kespa sanctions tournaments by controlling the progamers. how can blizzard tolerate some other entity controlling the way their progaming scene is run?
whether the intent is to kill sc1 or not depends on how much money they are asking. if it is high enough to be uncollectible, then obviously they are trying to kill sc1. if it is a sum that still allows ogn etc to do business, then it's something else.
well in your post you jump to the conclusion that blizzard has the rights in the first place, in that case you are correct. but what most of us are arguing about whether they actually do have those rights. Creating a computer game does not automatically create a huge scene with loads of sponsored teams, televised matches and high level play. this is where the fight is right now. they haven't won the case so far and claimed the rights to be theirs. so your described situation becomes more like them suing a competitor because it hurts their revenue. you seem to be implying that an organization like kespa has legitimacy because it exists apart from the effort blizzard put into bw. this is not the case legally speaking. still, i was not talking about legitimacy at all, just the economic and business logic at work. the legal rights are a tool to be wielded for business ends. blizzard's legal situation did not change from 2000 to today, what has changed is that they have a stake in progaming now that they've devised a way to extract revenue from it. now, kespa is not exactly your community cooperative sc league. they are quite aggressive in using the power of licensing as well, to the extent of coercing players. i don't have a horse in this race as far as the companies are concerned, i'm just not sure how the players and fans would be treated in the process. All I was saying is that I am not fully convinced that by creating a video game you automatically own everything that is created by it. I don't think blizzard gets much credit for all the fangirls going crazy and shouting when Flash used a d-matrixed dropship as an elevator to load Jaedongs base full with MnM and take out his tech. Or do you think all the fans turned up to that even because how awesomely Blizzard had designed all those sprites. You see what I mean? What OGN/MBC/KeSPA are selling is not quite what Blizzard had produced. Sure Blizzard deserves a part of the cake, but from what I recall their requests in the negotiations wasn't a piece of the cake, it was the whole cake and also the knife and all the plates to serve it. In my view this is unreasonable from them and they are waaay in the wrong here. I agree that KeSPA is a nasty organization, but KeSPA is a representative organization of all the pro teams involved. If KeSPA loses, the core of esports is gone and I am sure as hell Blizzard will not replace it. What happens from then is rather unpredictable but certainly not for good. If you create something you are the IP holder. It's your property and is handled like any other property as well. And in case Blizzards wants the whole cake or just a part of it does not change anything. It's their right. StarCraft was successively selling even b4 the whole esports thing started - Kespa did not make the game successful - they just milked it to make good money for their own without respecting Blizzards rights. Legally this case is clear. Without Kespa keeping the hype up for the game, people will NEVER buy SC2. Kespa DID make the game successful, without it, there will definitely be another organization at the same situation now with Blizzard. Kespa did not try to resell the game but only try to broadcast it and OH without Kespa, Koreans won't be as involved in this game and wouldn't buy more than half of sales that BW did. And according to them, they didn't make as much profit as you think, they are barely breaking it even with the money they gained.
? Didn't SC2 sell better in NA/EU than Korea and those countries didn't have a Kespa?
edit: oh i see what you're saying. I don't think we have to rely on Kespa for sc2 to succeed in korea.
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On November 04 2010 21:40 mdb wrote:
Blizzard very fast are closing all the doors towards SC2 becoming a major esport in Korea.
Except KeSPA has no interest in SC2 progaming. (because of new eula etc...)
Just saying.
On November 04 2010 23:58 mdb wrote:
Do you really believe that there were one million people watching nada vs boxer over the internet?
There isn't one million views.
There is 2.7 Million views.
http://ch.gomtv.com/427/28099/391700
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Calgary26003 Posts
On November 05 2010 00:21 leakingpear wrote:
Why is it every single one of these threads consists of the same uninformed knee jerk reactionary titwank, then 20 pages of people trying to explain that neither sides actions can be equated to the pre-school esque logic that said knee jerk titwank attempts to correlate it to, while being rebuked by said reactionary titwankees?
Oh and i'm really not going to reply to anyone over this stuff as it just gives me headaches trying to deal with the starcraft equivalent of creationists and yes I realise how remarkably arrogant and superior that sounds.
On November 05 2010 00:33 leakingpear wrote:
Okay, see you.
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10387 Posts
what the hell didn't OGN have successful negotiations with GOM for OSL Korean Air season 2? MBC I can understand, but OGN.. man Blizzard what the hell.. do they really want their support to tank in korea?
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sigh....
I just hope this ends well for everyone
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On November 05 2010 00:19 aru wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 00:02 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Anyway, I don't see how the Korean Air OSL can even be shut down. I remember that MONTHS ago OGN agreed to terms with OGN and only MBC couldn't come to an agreement. I suppose this is over OGN broadcasting Proleague without purchasing the rights, but how can they shut down the OSL because of that when they actually have the rights to it? They bought the rights to "Korean Air OSL 2", not "2010 Bacchus OSL". Every tournament you run requires you to buy another license. It's just coincidence that since the GSL started, they couldn't come to another agreement!
thanks a lot, I wasn't aware they announced another future OSL. I wonder why they would even do this, but the Korean Air OSL 2 can't be shut down because of this, correct?
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On November 05 2010 00:41 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 00:19 aru wrote:On November 05 2010 00:02 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Anyway, I don't see how the Korean Air OSL can even be shut down. I remember that MONTHS ago OGN agreed to terms with OGN and only MBC couldn't come to an agreement. I suppose this is over OGN broadcasting Proleague without purchasing the rights, but how can they shut down the OSL because of that when they actually have the rights to it? They bought the rights to "Korean Air OSL 2", not "2010 Bacchus OSL". Every tournament you run requires you to buy another license. It's just coincidence that since the GSL started, they couldn't come to another agreement! thanks a lot, I wasn't aware they announced another future OSL. I wonder why they would even do this, but the Korean Air OSL 2 can't be shut down because of this, correct?
Korean Air OSL 2 was last season. The current ongoing one is Bacchus OSL.
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Estonia4505 Posts
On November 05 2010 00:29 Chill wrote:
I'm super interested to see how this plays out.
May I ask about your thoughts on the matter?
I hope asking opinions is allowed and doesn't count as derailing the thread.
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Wait.. So Blizzard is suing MBC _AND_ OGN??!?
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I'm really disappointed that OGN announced they would continue broadcasting BW when they knew Blizzard would take legal action. I feel like OGN really shot themselves in the foot this time and it may be the end of competitive BW.
Alternatively Gretech could take up the broadcasting of the SPL and individual leagues and BW could be continued in that way.
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On November 04 2010 23:53 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 23:21 BLinD-RawR wrote:
I think Blizzard really wants to protect their rights....they're just being overprotective.... Don't you think it's slightly suspicious that they didn't do this 10 years ago and that all this has happened after SC2 has come out? I personally don't believe it's a coincidence at all.
it's not strange, because OGN and MBC were not charged with fees by KeSPA to air the tournatments until 2007 and that is exactly the point where Blizzard started to take action. And that's nothing abnormal every other company would do the same. You are allowed to share your stuff with others but when you generate a profit off it it's not legal anymore without the proper distribution rights.
It's basically the same with computer games. We all bought SC BW but that doesnt mean you own it. You made a contract with Blizzard to use their Software in a NONprofitable way. You can read that in every EULA in every game you try to install on your computer.
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So... Blizzard said "pay us money to broadcast OSL", and they did. And now they say "no screw you, we're suing you for broadcasting starcraft BW because we want MORE money".
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On November 05 2010 00:28 C.W. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 00:20 HeaDStrong wrote:On November 05 2010 00:06 oneofthem wrote:On November 04 2010 23:38 HeaDStrong wrote:On November 04 2010 23:29 oneofthem wrote:
people need to understand that by "protecting" their rights, it means "extract greatest revenue from" their rights. which may or may not involve killing sc1 and the way kespa does business, which is obviously a no go in a sc2 progaming scene that blizzard has a stake in. kespa sanctions tournaments by controlling the progamers. how can blizzard tolerate some other entity controlling the way their progaming scene is run?
whether the intent is to kill sc1 or not depends on how much money they are asking. if it is high enough to be uncollectible, then obviously they are trying to kill sc1. if it is a sum that still allows ogn etc to do business, then it's something else.
well in your post you jump to the conclusion that blizzard has the rights in the first place, in that case you are correct. but what most of us are arguing about whether they actually do have those rights. Creating a computer game does not automatically create a huge scene with loads of sponsored teams, televised matches and high level play. this is where the fight is right now. they haven't won the case so far and claimed the rights to be theirs. so your described situation becomes more like them suing a competitor because it hurts their revenue. you seem to be implying that an organization like kespa has legitimacy because it exists apart from the effort blizzard put into bw. this is not the case legally speaking. still, i was not talking about legitimacy at all, just the economic and business logic at work. the legal rights are a tool to be wielded for business ends. blizzard's legal situation did not change from 2000 to today, what has changed is that they have a stake in progaming now that they've devised a way to extract revenue from it. now, kespa is not exactly your community cooperative sc league. they are quite aggressive in using the power of licensing as well, to the extent of coercing players. i don't have a horse in this race as far as the companies are concerned, i'm just not sure how the players and fans would be treated in the process. All I was saying is that I am not fully convinced that by creating a video game you automatically own everything that is created by it. I don't think blizzard gets much credit for all the fangirls going crazy and shouting when Flash used a d-matrixed dropship as an elevator to load Jaedongs base full with MnM and take out his tech. Or do you think all the fans turned up to that even because how awesomely Blizzard had designed all those sprites. You see what I mean? What OGN/MBC/KeSPA are selling is not quite what Blizzard had produced. Sure Blizzard deserves a part of the cake, but from what I recall their requests in the negotiations wasn't a piece of the cake, it was the whole cake and also the knife and all the plates to serve it. In my view this is unreasonable from them and they are waaay in the wrong here. I agree that KeSPA is a nasty organization, but KeSPA is a representative organization of all the pro teams involved. If KeSPA loses, the core of esports is gone and I am sure as hell Blizzard will not replace it. What happens from then is rather unpredictable but certainly not for good. If you create something you are the IP holder. It's your property and is handled like any other property as well. And in case Blizzards wants the whole cake or just a part of it does not change anything. It's their right. StarCraft was successively selling even b4 the whole esports thing started - Kespa did not make the game successful - they just milked it to make good money for their own without respecting Blizzards rights. Legally this case is clear.
Well if you would have cared to read my post and think about it, you would realize that I am arguing that the companies being sued do not simply re-sell the product Blizzard created but they create something more around it.
Blizzard owns the game sure. But they have no rights to claim the teams, the broadcasting infrastructure and the amount of hours progamers practice to display great games, as theirs.
It's a sad deadlock, where neither of the sides are eligible for everything but neither will settle for less.
And mind your posting if you want to stick around here don't start and end your posts with personal insults especially in cases where it's totally unwarranted.
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EPT
