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ALLEYCAT BLUES50601 Posts
On November 05 2010 14:02 benjammin wrote:
gosh, i feel like such a corporate shill for siding with blizzard here, but i have yet to read/hear anything compelling enough to make me feel like all the korean leagues are doing anything besides playing the victim after violating ip laws
i wonder if this attitude is just a disconnect between people who try to create something for a living and people who primarily consume things for a living, though
There is more than 1 story to the argument...I'm still waiting for KeSPA to release their statement.
all in all...I don't think its going to end as badly as people say it will.
Then again...What do I know?
On November 05 2010 13:27 CraftKings wrote:
Ist billzzard very greedy and each champaign have to add more money to buy.. 2nd sc2 have no lan games and this is what i hate a game no lan games, 3rd u wanna sue every broadcasting with kespa and u wanna kill bw sc1... so now i hope KOREA BAN STARCRAFT II STOP using their product to play
Welcome to teamliquid,please don't post in this thread until you have a good understanding of the situation or people might just flame you.
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On November 05 2010 13:43 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 12:46 Elevators wrote:On November 05 2010 12:19 robertdinh wrote:On November 05 2010 12:09 nickycakes wrote:
I think what many of you who are supporting kespa in this situation fail to realize is that Blizzard MUST protect their IP rights for BW if they also wish to protect their rights to SC2. If they fail to set a precedent with BW then Kespa can come in and start a SC2 league just as easily. Kespa has repeatedly shown that they firmly believe they can do whatever they want with Blizzard IP without paying for it. If you think they're doing it in the name of promoting e-sports and not to make money like any other business, you're blind. And what exactly is blizzard doing it for? Has blizzard proven they are good at developing stable long-lasting esports leagues? How is WoW e-sports doing now after the initial hype of it all? lol... WoW was never meant to be an e-sport, so what's the point of mentioning it? Blizzard made StarCraft = Blizzard owns the rights to StarCraft. I don't see how people can argue against this? Do people really think that OGN can't afford to buy the rights to broadcast?! They know that they are breaking the law... they just think that they can get away with it. Is SC2 meant to be an esport, and by meant, I mean, does blizzard prioritize competitive SC2 over all other aspects of SC2?
Yes. It was developed from the very beginning to be an esport, they even had very high end players help them along the way in their balancing and developing of the game. They dont make changes to the game that would negatively effect the main 1v1 aspects of the game. In fact, there have only been 1-2 changes made specifically for other aspects of SC2 (reaper speed requiring factory) and it doesnt really change 1v1 that heavily.
Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 13:11 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 05 2010 12:19 robertdinh wrote:On November 05 2010 12:09 nickycakes wrote:
I think what many of you who are supporting kespa in this situation fail to realize is that Blizzard MUST protect their IP rights for BW if they also wish to protect their rights to SC2. If they fail to set a precedent with BW then Kespa can come in and start a SC2 league just as easily. Kespa has repeatedly shown that they firmly believe they can do whatever they want with Blizzard IP without paying for it. If you think they're doing it in the name of promoting e-sports and not to make money like any other business, you're blind. And what exactly is blizzard doing it for? Has blizzard proven they are good at developing stable long-lasting esports leagues? How is WoW e-sports doing now after the initial hype of it all? Considering the relatively poor balance of WoW and the fact that PvP was actually an afterthought originally... and I would say quite well. I mean... seriously... PvP wasnt officially supported or balanced for a REALLY long time, it was just sort of in the game (even now, its not really balanced). Then add in that its an MMO and not an FPS/RTS and its doing even better. Can you name another game of its genre that is doing as well as WoW? Do you see D2/lineage/final fantasy/everquest sponsored fights? The reason you don't see other mmos travel the e-sports route is because they know they aren't designed for that type of gameplay, so they don't attempt it halfheartedly. Blizzard doesn't care about wow as an esport, yet they found some ways to make money off of the concept of that so they milked it a little. If you've played arena through the seasons and seen some of the atrocious states of balance you would know how little esports mattered to blizzard. Or you could just watch the wizard cleave tournaments and fall asleep as many matches go to the max time limit.
My point was that despite the fact that MMO's are not popular as an esports game, and people generally dont play them (or watch them) for the esports aspect, they have gotten a large following that do like to watch it.
If they can do that much with something that was designed from the ground up to NOT be an esport, and can then promote a single aspect of it as an esport and it be relatively popular... then imagine what they can do with a game that was designed to be one...
I have known some of the atrocious states of balance, but I also know that its nearly impossible to balance for, and yet they do try (or have tried for a long while).
Regardless of this, I will let the views of the GSL be an indicator of how well SC2 is doing as an esport already.
3 million have already watched boxer vs nada (excluding live views)
2 million watched the finals from S1 (excluding live views)
since the RO32 each game has been averaging 500k views on the VOD (excluding live views)
boxer/nada pull in on average 1.5 million views (excluding live views)
Compare this to the flash vs jaedong star league S2 finals at a mere 500k views
http://ch.gomtv.com/428/27954/383919 (again, excluding live views, no clue how many watch it on TV...)
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On November 05 2010 14:07 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 14:02 benjammin wrote:
gosh, i feel like such a corporate shill for siding with blizzard here, but i have yet to read/hear anything compelling enough to make me feel like all the korean leagues are doing anything besides playing the victim after violating ip laws
i wonder if this attitude is just a disconnect between people who try to create something for a living and people who primarily consume things for a living, though There is more than 1 story to the argument...I'm still waiting for KeSPA to release their statement. all in all...I don't think its going to end as badly as people say it will. Then again...What do I know? Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 13:27 CraftKings wrote:
Ist billzzard very greedy and each champaign have to add more money to buy.. 2nd sc2 have no lan games and this is what i hate a game no lan games, 3rd u wanna sue every broadcasting with kespa and u wanna kill bw sc1... so now i hope KOREA BAN STARCRAFT II STOP using their product to play Welcome to teamliquid,please don't post in this thread until you have a good understanding of the situation or people might just flame you.
I especially like his champaign touch with all the non-sense mixed in... keeps it quite fresh
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O.o... OGN pays for one league but tires to cheat another one off? Misunderstanding or Incompetency?
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On November 05 2010 12:09 nickycakes wrote:
I think what many of you who are supporting kespa in this situation fail to realize is that Blizzard MUST protect their IP rights for BW if they also wish to protect their rights to SC2. If they fail to set a precedent with BW then Kespa can come in and start a SC2 league just as easily. Kespa has repeatedly shown that they firmly believe they can do whatever they want with Blizzard IP without paying for it. If you think they're doing it in the name of promoting e-sports and not to make money like any other business, you're blind.
Except that, you know, SC2 requires battle.net and blizzard could just have maintenance whenever KESPA wants to do a SC2 tournament
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50601 Posts
Compare this to the flash vs jaedong star league S2 finals at a mere 500k views http://ch.gomtv.com/428/27954/383919 (again, excluding live views, no clue how many watch it on TV...)
I don't remember the source but the TV ratings was along the lines of 1.2mil or so?I don't remember the source.
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Blizzard is entitled to their fair share of the money being made off BW, but I'd really like it if there were some rules and regulations (or at least logic) in place that dictated how much that "fair share" equates to. Because as justified as they are to demand KeSPA purchase broadcasting rights for their IP, it would ruin everybody's day if they demand so much it destroys the BW scene.
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On November 05 2010 14:28 BLinD-RawR wrote:I don't remember the source but the TV ratings was along the lines of 1.2mil or so?I don't remember the source.
That means that SC2 is already more popular in korea then... which to me would be pretty shocking if true o.o
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KeSPA is going to lose aren't they?
Why do they keep pushing?
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50601 Posts
On November 05 2010 14:32 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 14:28 BLinD-RawR wrote:Compare this to the flash vs jaedong star league S2 finals at a mere 500k views http://ch.gomtv.com/428/27954/383919 (again, excluding live views, no clue how many watch it on TV...) I don't remember the source but the TV ratings was along the lines of 1.2mil or so?I don't remember the source. That means that SC2 is already more popular in korea then... which to me would be pretty shocking if true o.o
I was talking about the TV ratings for KA OSL S2....500k is the internet stream ratings.
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I don't understand the Blizzard hate. All these unfounded claims that Blizzard stalls negotiations and has unreasonable demands?
What, exactly, are the unreasonable demands that you're all speaking of?
If the demands are so unreasonable, why was GomTV / GSL able to reach an agreement so easily and run successfully?
From what I can see Blizzard wants multiple leagues to co-exist, they even say that in the original post! OGN/Kespa just need to agree to the same terms that GomTV did. It seems they're the ones being unreasonable.
The only argument I continue to see is "BW has gone on like this for so long, why start now?". The obvious answer is SC2. They want to protect SC2, and if a company is allowed to broadcast starcraft BW illegally, what's to stop them from broadcasting SC2 illegally? SC2 is the future, hell it's already the present but most of you don't want to admit it.
The bottom line here is Kespa/OGN used to make X dollars by broadcasting illegally. If they legally broadcast, they're going to make (X - licensing fees) dollars. They don't like this, and they want to continue making X, and nothing less then X.
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If I will make some wallpapers with Adobe Photoshop and then sell all those pictures, Adobe will have no rights to get more money from me. I think that we have a similar situation with Blizz and SC2.
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On November 05 2010 08:21 ffreakk wrote:
SC2: Only a few people earning money (about 100k/year max?). The rest get none. Housing? Food?
Boxer is being sponsored by Intel to effectively make a pro team of his own, and he is being paid $180,000 personally with $270,000 initially to fund the team.
This team is just the beginning. Already TSL, oGs, Prime, Zenex, etc. all have sponsorships that seem to be doing a lot more for their players than we currently know publicly.
(Source)
And before you argue viewers, it looks like Boxer vs Nada received 2.9 million independent views for the Korean video, most of which were most likely Korean (Source)
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On November 05 2010 14:51 leonardus wrote:
If I will make some wallpapers with Adobe Photoshop and then sell all those pictures, Adobe will have no rights to get more money from me. I think that we have a similar situation with Blizz and SC2.
The EULA of the two products are very, very different. The reason you pay so stinking much for Photoshop (it's in the hundreds of dollars, $700-$1,000) is so that you have the rights to anything you create within it for your own use. Comparing Starcraft to Photoshop is inaccurate. Although both are pieces of software, they are very very different.
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On November 05 2010 14:34 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 14:32 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 05 2010 14:28 BLinD-RawR wrote:Compare this to the flash vs jaedong star league S2 finals at a mere 500k views http://ch.gomtv.com/428/27954/383919 (again, excluding live views, no clue how many watch it on TV...) I don't remember the source but the TV ratings was along the lines of 1.2mil or so?I don't remember the source. That means that SC2 is already more popular in korea then... which to me would be pretty shocking if true o.o I was talking about the TV ratings for KA OSL S2....500k is the internet stream ratings.
I know, 1.2 million TV views + 500k stream views = 1.7 million.
2.9 million (just in korea) watched boxer vs nada so far just through the stream, and it doesnt include live stream views.
Hell, 1.9 million watched the finals stream from S1, which is bigger than the TV + stream views that you are talking about.
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On November 05 2010 14:51 leonardus wrote:
If I will make some wallpapers with Adobe Photoshop and then sell all those pictures, Adobe will have no rights to get more money from me. I think that we have a similar situation with Blizz and SC2.
This is far from that. Photoshop is a tool, and most art derived from Photoshop is not dependent on it. Whereas maps, replays, broadcasted games are dependent on Starcraft programming.
Both of their legal agreements for using them are very different, because they are different software marketing different things.
I'll try to give you a better analogy, but it's very hard to compare anything to this situation.
I'm going to use DOTA. DOTA is a custom game/mod for WC3 based off of Aeon of Strife from SCBW. If the creator of these games decides not to use WC or SC as their platform to base their ideas and games upon, and uses a different platform or one created from the ground up. Does Blizzard have any legal right to DOTA / other games then?
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IP laws create exclusive rights that allow owners of intellectual property to benefit from the property they have created. These provide a financial incentive for the creation of and investment in intellectual property. Companies such as Blizzard profit from the development of games that inthemselves hold patents and trademarks that are protected by law, and Blizzard is simply defending their rights to the use of the intellectual property that they created and own.
Imagine if you invented an awesome game that became insanely popular in another country, but you weren't making a cent from it. I know it seems like Blizzard is a greedy corporation - but they have rights to their intellectual property.
I do think though that blizzard is timing the legal proceedings in line with the growing popularity of starcarft 2, and if they succeed it is likely that they will use the rights to force starcraft 1 out of the Korean competitive scene.
In the end, if it is Blizzard's intelectually property by law then they have the right to manage its use as they see fit to increase their profits, however bitter starcraft 1 fans get. If Blizzard decides that there is still money to be made in licensing out tournaments to MBC etc then I can still see a competitive stracraft 1 scene in the foreseeable future. One thing is for certain though; Blizzard wants as much money as possible from the Korean market, and they're not afraid to play hardball to get it.
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Ugh, I just realized my analogy sucked, but I said so anyways... Not even sure how close it is.
Anyways, if Blizzard/Gretech does win, technically they can still renegotiate with KeSPA, OGN, and MBC for new licenses, but it has to be on their terms or else no way they can be broadcasted in that jurisdiction.
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On November 05 2010 15:00 Pleiades wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 14:51 leonardus wrote:
If I will make some wallpapers with Adobe Photoshop and then sell all those pictures, Adobe will have no rights to get more money from me. I think that we have a similar situation with Blizz and SC2. This is far from that. Photoshop is a tool, and most art derived from Photoshop is not dependent on it. Whereas maps, replays, broadcasted games are dependent on Starcraft programming. Both of their legal agreements for using them are very different, because they are different software marketing different things. I'll try to give you a better analogy, but it's very hard to compare anything to this situation. I'm going to use DOTA. DOTA is a custom game/mod for WC3 based off of Aeon of Strife from SCBW. If the creator of these games decides not to use WC or SC as their platform to base their ideas and games upon, and uses a different platform or one created from the ground up. Does Blizzard have any legal right to DOTA / other games then?
Actually yes they do. That's why they're able to use the actual name "Blizzard DOTA" and not something else like League of Legends, or Heroes of Newerth.
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On November 05 2010 15:11 Roq wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 15:00 Pleiades wrote:On November 05 2010 14:51 leonardus wrote:
If I will make some wallpapers with Adobe Photoshop and then sell all those pictures, Adobe will have no rights to get more money from me. I think that we have a similar situation with Blizz and SC2. This is far from that. Photoshop is a tool, and most art derived from Photoshop is not dependent on it. Whereas maps, replays, broadcasted games are dependent on Starcraft programming. Both of their legal agreements for using them are very different, because they are different software marketing different things. I'll try to give you a better analogy, but it's very hard to compare anything to this situation. I'm going to use DOTA. DOTA is a custom game/mod for WC3 based off of Aeon of Strife from SCBW. If the creator of these games decides not to use WC or SC as their platform to base their ideas and games upon, and uses a different platform or one created from the ground up. Does Blizzard have any legal right to DOTA / other games then? Actually yes they do. That's why they're able to use the actual name "Blizzard DOTA" and not something else like League of Legends, or Heroes of Newerth.
Odd considering valve trademarked DotA and not blizzard then.
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EPT
