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On November 05 2010 15:55 _Quasar_ wrote:
I didn't need that sequel, to be honest. After it was released, I forgot about it and played SC:BW as always.
I think maximum sportive part is in the fact that SC is old and simple game, and all that matters - is the mastership of players. That is true sports.
You're not right - SC is enormously popular in Russia. Anyone plays it. I went to new job and found out that more than 50% of my new colleagues play it (STILL freaking play. When there is 12 years after!)
How many of your colleagues BOUGHT it? How many of your colleagues want to play SC2, but dont because they cant play through means that arent b.net? Sorry if this seems harsh, but word on the street is that russia is rampant with game piracy and SC2's bnet prevents (for now) piracy.
it's a little bit trollish, dude. It seems you haven't read all that I write. I have a reason - the people who gave SC popularity - a hard to learn, strategic game - were korean gaming community. They raised it to the SPORTS status. And adrenaline and willing to compete is the only possible reason that i see to make this game SUCH popular. Otherwise it wouldn't go further than warcraft 2. Yes good, yes entertaining, but not too popular, and NOT living the freaking 12 years when people kept still occasionally spending money on it. And 11 WCG's with it! That's very huge.
SC2 is equally hard to learn, the fact that its based on BW and the immense coverage it receives is the only reason it is advancing so quickly. If you want to see how rapidly its changing, look at some beta games (such as king of the beta tournament) and compare it to GSL S2... huge huge huge change in gameplay in just a few months.
Only Counter-Strike could beat that. And wait... why I don't hear any shit of that from Valve who "own" Half-Life? Maybe because it is POSSIBLE to be a normal company and normal people who make human-like actions?
People arent trying to sell CS broadcast rights or take ownership of the game. You also apparently dont know that CS caused huuuuuuuuuuuge outcry when valve put advertising in the game.
So, I know that they owe their popularity to koreans. And they SHOULD NOT be taking such actions.
No, they do not. They owe their popularity to their games that they have created. People buy and play blizzard games because of the continued support and outstanding quality. It is their reputation, not korea. I dont even know how you could arrive at the conclusion that korea is responsible for blizzards success.
About SC2 - i would buy it, if thing were not that way, at least for the single campaign. And multiplayer - I am very doubting that without ALL THIS ACTIONS it would reach even a 25% of SC original's e-sportive degree. (and i doubt that even with them - it reaches even 50% of it.) And would be a little time after forgotten and descending to the status of WC3 - good but not too popular. And all who liked original SC would still play it, because there's where the true Fighting Spirit lies. 
According to the numbers available, SC2 has already reached and/or surpassed BW popularity. I wont say its a better game, because that is opinion... but in terms of viewership, it is already quite popular.
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On November 05 2010 15:52 Pleiades wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 15:44 zimz wrote:
north korea should run osl and msl, i would like to see blizzard try to sue kim jong il. kim jong il can just respond by nuking the pacific ocean. It depends on how many south korean progamers would risk going to north korea to participate.
I dunno. I rather watch MSL with poweroutage from vod than every year couple of times live.
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No, they do not. They owe their popularity to their games that they have created. People buy and play blizzard games because of the continued support and outstanding quality. It is their reputation, not korea. I dont even know how you could arrive at the conclusion that korea is responsible for blizzards success. by that logic, bw was big in korea cause of kespa and not boxer
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On November 05 2010 15:11 Roq wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 15:00 Pleiades wrote:On November 05 2010 14:51 leonardus wrote:
If I will make some wallpapers with Adobe Photoshop and then sell all those pictures, Adobe will have no rights to get more money from me. I think that we have a similar situation with Blizz and SC2. This is far from that. Photoshop is a tool, and most art derived from Photoshop is not dependent on it. Whereas maps, replays, broadcasted games are dependent on Starcraft programming. Both of their legal agreements for using them are very different, because they are different software marketing different things. I'll try to give you a better analogy, but it's very hard to compare anything to this situation. I'm going to use DOTA. DOTA is a custom game/mod for WC3 based off of Aeon of Strife from SCBW. If the creator of these games decides not to use WC or SC as their platform to base their ideas and games upon, and uses a different platform or one created from the ground up. Does Blizzard have any legal right to DOTA / other games then? Actually yes they do. That's why they're able to use the actual name "Blizzard DOTA" and not something else like League of Legends, or Heroes of Newerth.
You are wrong. They have no rights to DotA whatsoever, thats probably why they got mad and invented the new system where they own all custom maps made by users, as well as trying to make a Blizzard DotA now.. The one with right to DotA right now is Valve, who is working with Icefrog, the current developer of DotA (the original creator was Guinsoo n Eul, but Icefrog is in charge now), they already filed a trademark for DotA (all the way to DotA 4).
They owe their popularity to their games that they have created. People buy and play blizzard games because of the continued support and outstanding quality.
Thats true, i bought SC2 because SC1 was awesome (and cos my old friends want to play SC2 with me n talk crap about it over dinner). I will probably buy Diablo 3 cos Diablo 2 was awesome as well.. I wont buy SC3, for obvious reasons.
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On November 05 2010 16:11 We Are Here wrote:Show nested quote +No, they do not. They owe their popularity to their games that they have created. People buy and play blizzard games because of the continued support and outstanding quality. It is their reputation, not korea. I dont even know how you could arrive at the conclusion that korea is responsible for blizzards success. by that logic, bw was big in korea cause of kespa and not boxer
This doesnt even make sense. Korea is a hugely small fraction of blizzards success. Most of their sales are in the EU and US, and korea had no effect on sales in these countries. At all.
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
It is not small. Blizzard didn't get such enormous success in any strategic game except SC. This is the truth, and if you surpass it, it finally is repaid in the end. I don't advice to Blizzard to do so. =\
You forget WCG. Many were attracted by WCG to starcraft - and there'd be no WCG without koreans.
Anyway, you can always just get help from the ones who do help you, and then say "your help had no value" and just leave them behind. But this IS unjust. And for those who say that it's just - I wish someone backstabbed them in the similar way. Maybe then they would've understood. =\
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5930 Posts
On November 05 2010 16:21 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 16:11 We Are Here wrote:No, they do not. They owe their popularity to their games that they have created. People buy and play blizzard games because of the continued support and outstanding quality. It is their reputation, not korea. I dont even know how you could arrive at the conclusion that korea is responsible for blizzards success. by that logic, bw was big in korea cause of kespa and not boxer This doesnt even make sense. Korea is a hugely small fraction of blizzards success. Most of their sales are in the EU and US, and korea had no effect on sales in these countries. At all.
I agree 4.5 million copies out of 9.5 million copies is a hugely small fraction.
A large amount of Blizzard's reputation was built up by Brood War I don't know how anyone can deny this. The only reason people look at Starcraft 2 and thought eSports from the get go is because of Brood War and their reputation for having the best balance team of all RTS developers is because of Brood War and the Korean scene.
The title, Starcraft, whether you like it or not, is directly connected to the Korean proscene. Anyone who doesn't know shit about gaming might still know about Starcraft as that game where little nerds can earn $100,000 on a TV channel dedicated to it.
Ultimately Brood War is going to die and Starcraft 2 is going to overtake it. Blizzard can go sue Kespa I literally don't care about it because at the end of the day its two faceless corporations fighting for their own vested interests (not ours, if they cared about us both companies would have come to an agreement ages ago and Kespa would stop being stupid), and Gretech in the middle hoping MBC and OGN will go down so it can hold all of the cards.
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On November 05 2010 16:27 _Quasar_ wrote:
It is not small. Blizzard didn't get such enormous success in any strategic game except SC. This is the truth, and if you surpass it, it finally is repaid in the end. I don't advice to Blizzard to do so. =\
You forget WCG. Many were attracted by WCG to starcraft - and there'd be no WCG without koreans.
Anyway, you can always just get help from the ones who do help you, and then say "your help had no value" and just leave them behind. But this IS unjust. And for those who say that it's just - I wish someone backstabbed them in the similar way. Maybe then they would've understood. =\
Why do you focus on strategic games now? Are you finally realizing that the success of blizzard (you know, the company that makes more than just RTS games) did not hinge on SC?
WCG was originally a korean based tournament, so naturally BW would be the popular game. However, CS was quite popular as well (just not in korea) for WCG despite this.
Regardless of this, you have shown me no proof that blizzards success was because of korea. I mean, to me... 12 million active subscribers (ie: people paying $15 each month or whatever is the method of payment for their country) for WoW had nothing to do with the korean BW scene (who knows how many copies of the game they have actually sold, probably millions more than that even). D2's huge success had nothing to do with the korean BW scene.
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The sooner that Flash and Jaedong can switch over to SC2 the better imo.
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Threads like these should be moderated heavily because shit posts are hitting the fan.
many people who reads these threads would believe other people's shit because they are being labeled as facts by the poster. opinions are fine since almost ALL of the posters in there doesnt really have a clue on whats going and the less knowledge they have, the more they can speculate. but to say that other people shit is just pure shit when in fact your post is also as shitty is really fucked up. thus the flame goes on ..
but some people believe that what they have posted are hard facts regarding the scene and its laughable.
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On November 05 2010 16:34 Womwomwom wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 16:21 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 05 2010 16:11 We Are Here wrote:No, they do not. They owe their popularity to their games that they have created. People buy and play blizzard games because of the continued support and outstanding quality. It is their reputation, not korea. I dont even know how you could arrive at the conclusion that korea is responsible for blizzards success. by that logic, bw was big in korea cause of kespa and not boxer This doesnt even make sense. Korea is a hugely small fraction of blizzards success. Most of their sales are in the EU and US, and korea had no effect on sales in these countries. At all. I agree 4.5 million copies out of 9.5 million copies is a hugely small fraction.
For BW in particular, yes korea is a lot of the sales. However, as I stated before, BW is not blizzard. Blizzard has 12 million people actively paying in WoW, D2 was in the top 10 game sales lists up to and including this year:
http://www.vg247.com/2010/08/05/activision-blizzard-q2-financials-net-revenue-comes-in-at-967-million/
Stop thinking that BW is the only game that blizzard makes, and you will realize this.
A large amount of Blizzard's reputation was built up by Brood War I don't know how anyone can deny this. The only reason people look at Starcraft 2 and thought eSports from the get go is because of Brood War and their reputation for having the best balance team of all RTS developers is because of Brood War and the Korean scene.
No, to you their reputation was built up by BW. For me, it was the combined effect of supporting their games, telling cool stories, and how awesome they all were. I loved diablo, D2, war2 (never played war1), sc, bw, and WoW. The only one that never really caught on for me was war3.
The title, Starcraft, whether you like it or not, is directly connected to the Korean proscene. Anyone who doesn't know shit about gaming might still know about Starcraft as that game where little nerds can earn $100,000 on a TV channel dedicated to it.
Yes, SC is quite synonymous with the korean pro scene, I have never and will not argue against that.
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On November 05 2010 16:52 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 16:34 Womwomwom wrote:On November 05 2010 16:21 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 05 2010 16:11 We Are Here wrote:No, they do not. They owe their popularity to their games that they have created. People buy and play blizzard games because of the continued support and outstanding quality. It is their reputation, not korea. I dont even know how you could arrive at the conclusion that korea is responsible for blizzards success. by that logic, bw was big in korea cause of kespa and not boxer This doesnt even make sense. Korea is a hugely small fraction of blizzards success. Most of their sales are in the EU and US, and korea had no effect on sales in these countries. At all. I agree 4.5 million copies out of 9.5 million copies is a hugely small fraction. For BW in particular, yes korea is a lot of the sales. However, as I stated before, BW is not blizzard. Blizzard has 12 million people actively paying in WoW, D2 was in the top 10 game sales lists up to and including this year: http://www.vg247.com/2010/08/05/activision-blizzard-q2-financials-net-revenue-comes-in-at-967-million/Stop thinking that BW is the only game that blizzard makes, and you will realize this. Show nested quote +A large amount of Blizzard's reputation was built up by Brood War I don't know how anyone can deny this. The only reason people look at Starcraft 2 and thought eSports from the get go is because of Brood War and their reputation for having the best balance team of all RTS developers is because of Brood War and the Korean scene. No, to you their reputation was built up by BW. For me, it was the combined effect of supporting their games, telling cool stories, and how awesome they all were. I loved diablo, D2, war2 (never played war1), sc, bw, and WoW. The only one that never really caught on for me was war3. Show nested quote +The title, Starcraft, whether you like it or not, is directly connected to the Korean proscene. Anyone who doesn't know shit about gaming might still know about Starcraft as that game where little nerds can earn $100,000 on a TV channel dedicated to it. Yes, SC is quite synonymous with the korean pro scene, I have never and will not argue against that.
In your haste for a counter-argument, did you forget to read his post properly? Do take note that he mentioned "reputation"..
While sales figure might say this and that, they obviously fail to quantify reputation.. There are a few titles from which Blizz's reputation took off from which earn them the money for their next title.. Huge sales figure in the first few days, or even weeks of release are obviously not because the game was terrific, since almost nobody would have finished playing it to spread words that its awesome.. These people are drawn in because of the greatness of the previous titles.
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Hey, Blizzard, how about fixing your games before suing people? Bnet 2.0 sucks to the point of physical pain. But its more important to sue people because you're just some money hungry retards. And because of your greedness we had to wait so much to get served a pile of shit. GG, you pricks.
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On November 05 2010 16:19 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 15:11 Roq wrote:On November 05 2010 15:00 Pleiades wrote:On November 05 2010 14:51 leonardus wrote:
If I will make some wallpapers with Adobe Photoshop and then sell all those pictures, Adobe will have no rights to get more money from me. I think that we have a similar situation with Blizz and SC2. This is far from that. Photoshop is a tool, and most art derived from Photoshop is not dependent on it. Whereas maps, replays, broadcasted games are dependent on Starcraft programming. Both of their legal agreements for using them are very different, because they are different software marketing different things. I'll try to give you a better analogy, but it's very hard to compare anything to this situation. I'm going to use DOTA. DOTA is a custom game/mod for WC3 based off of Aeon of Strife from SCBW. If the creator of these games decides not to use WC or SC as their platform to base their ideas and games upon, and uses a different platform or one created from the ground up. Does Blizzard have any legal right to DOTA / other games then? Actually yes they do. That's why they're able to use the actual name "Blizzard DOTA" and not something else like League of Legends, or Heroes of Newerth. You are wrong. They have no rights to DotA whatsoever, thats probably why they got mad and invented the new system where they own all custom maps made by users, as well as trying to make a Blizzard DotA now.. The one with right to DotA right now is Valve, who is working with Icefrog, the current developer of DotA (the original creator was Guinsoo n Eul, but Icefrog is in charge now), they already filed a trademark for DotA (all the way to DotA 4). Show nested quote +They owe their popularity to their games that they have created. People buy and play blizzard games because of the continued support and outstanding quality. Thats true, i bought SC2 because SC1 was awesome (and cos my old friends want to play SC2 with me n talk crap about it over dinner). I will probably buy Diablo 3 cos Diablo 2 was awesome as well.. I wont buy SC3, for obvious reasons.
What happens if SC3 is the best RTS ever? Would you buy it then?
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5930 Posts
I've played a lot of things Blizzard has put out (Diablo, Diablo 2, Warcraft 2, Blackthorne, Warcraft 3, WoW) and the only multiplayer game that was anyway near balanced was Brood War. Even Warcraft 2 was somehow incredibly imbalanced.
It seems we're arguing different things. No shit Blizzard is successful and BW doesn't effect the successes of Diablo or WoW...that's because they appeal to different people because they're different genres (one is a MMO where social interaction is massive, and one is a hack and slash). People who buy WoW and Diablo buy it for different reasons because they're different games. Balance doesn't matter TOO much for WoW and Diablo because the majority of people don't care about it and just play it with friends because its fun.
SC2 on the otherhand had such a massive launch because of the reputation Brood War had. The longevity and seriousness of the Brood War scene gave Blizzard a reputation for being masters of game balance (not really true considering Brood War is its only success...). It is a competitive RTS game and balance is the name of the game here; if its not balanced, it won't be fun to play, and therefore it won't be worth buying.
I suspect a lot of people who actually play semi-competitively on the ladder bought SC2 because of Blizzard's reputation for balance; most people I've played with at uni haven't even played Brood War...but still bought SC2 on the first day because they liked skill based RTS games like Dawn of War but wanted someone good like Blizzard to balance the game so it isn't frustrating to play competitively. WoW and Diablo had no influence here because they're different games from different genres and they don't really care about Blizzard's track record because they're not massive nerds like you and I.
Most people buy RTS games to play online. If the game has shit balance, anyone remotely competitive isn't going to buy it because they'll just get frustrated and ultimately quit because losing to imba shit is annoying. No one really cared about Dawn of War 2 because after the Dawn of War expansions and Company of Heroes: Opposing Fronts it was expected that it would be horribly broken.
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On November 05 2010 17:13 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 16:52 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 05 2010 16:34 Womwomwom wrote:On November 05 2010 16:21 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 05 2010 16:11 We Are Here wrote:No, they do not. They owe their popularity to their games that they have created. People buy and play blizzard games because of the continued support and outstanding quality. It is their reputation, not korea. I dont even know how you could arrive at the conclusion that korea is responsible for blizzards success. by that logic, bw was big in korea cause of kespa and not boxer This doesnt even make sense. Korea is a hugely small fraction of blizzards success. Most of their sales are in the EU and US, and korea had no effect on sales in these countries. At all. I agree 4.5 million copies out of 9.5 million copies is a hugely small fraction. For BW in particular, yes korea is a lot of the sales. However, as I stated before, BW is not blizzard. Blizzard has 12 million people actively paying in WoW, D2 was in the top 10 game sales lists up to and including this year: http://www.vg247.com/2010/08/05/activision-blizzard-q2-financials-net-revenue-comes-in-at-967-million/Stop thinking that BW is the only game that blizzard makes, and you will realize this. A large amount of Blizzard's reputation was built up by Brood War I don't know how anyone can deny this. The only reason people look at Starcraft 2 and thought eSports from the get go is because of Brood War and their reputation for having the best balance team of all RTS developers is because of Brood War and the Korean scene. No, to you their reputation was built up by BW. For me, it was the combined effect of supporting their games, telling cool stories, and how awesome they all were. I loved diablo, D2, war2 (never played war1), sc, bw, and WoW. The only one that never really caught on for me was war3. The title, Starcraft, whether you like it or not, is directly connected to the Korean proscene. Anyone who doesn't know shit about gaming might still know about Starcraft as that game where little nerds can earn $100,000 on a TV channel dedicated to it. Yes, SC is quite synonymous with the korean pro scene, I have never and will not argue against that. In your haste for a counter-argument, did you forget to read his post properly? Do take note that he mentioned "reputation".. While sales figure might say this and that, they obviously fail to quantify reputation.. There are a few titles from which Blizz's reputation took off from which earn them the money for their next title.. Huge sales figure in the first few days, or even weeks of release are obviously not because the game was terrific, since almost nobody would have finished playing it to spread words that its awesome.. These people are drawn in because of the greatness of the previous titles.
I did not forget to read the post correctly, did you read mine correctly? Do you not see that I mention D1, D2, and war2? All of these games were wildly successful and built their reputation even more. Then comes SC and WoW, their reputation is propelled even further. Obviously their reputation varies person to person, but for me it is a combination of the quality of all of their games.
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On November 05 2010 17:20 WellDuh wrote:
Hey, Blizzard, how about fixing your games before suing people? Bnet 2.0 sucks to the point of physical pain. But its more important to sue people because you're just some money hungry retards. And because of your greedness we had to wait so much to get served a pile of shit. GG, you pricks.
The legal team has nothing to do with development. bnet 2.0 is getting significant changes before the end of this year (as long as they stay on schedule) that will give us chat channels and who knows what else. They officially announced this already several times (including at blizzcon and before it)
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Reading these threads makes me wonder. I followed the BW scene for the past 8 years with some of these guys, and the blind hate that they have for SC2 and Blizzard is ridiculous.
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On November 05 2010 17:36 toadstool wrote:
Reading these threads makes me wonder. I followed the BW scene for the past 8 years with some of these guys, and the blind hate that they have for SC2 and Blizzard is ridiculous.
I agree. This is in every game scene, sadly.
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
Why do you focus on strategic games now? Are you finally realizing that the success of blizzard (you know, the company that makes more than just RTS games) did not hinge on SC?
Because people don't give a shit about what company is making what. they play games, not the companies. For them "b l i z z a r d" is nothing but a set of letters. They play games, and therefore, they don't care if this is "the game from the company that made such a great selling games, omg omg". They see if it is a good game. If it is shit, or they don't like it, they don't play it.
I point at that if not for koreans, never so many people would have liked SC. Because it's hard to play and there needed to be competitive spirit for it to make success.
Blizzard's success is unarguable, but if it ISN'T noticeably depend on SC - then... WTF? Why are they now f*cking with all this "IP rights"? Maybe because it DOES depend on SC series? -___-
Otherwise they would just leave it alone. If it didn't depend. They're spending money on lawyers, too. -____- So they think it's worth it.
So, basically I have answered all your arguments.
Yes there are other great games of Blizzard, but I won't support it anymore because I think tha this company is shit. I think other developers can make not less good games.
and WomWomWom already has said the rest
To sum up: I think without Starcraft BLIZZ wouldn't be complete. If you pull off SC success out of them, then there wouldn't be the level of success we see now. They would just be more mediocre. And have not the power they now have. To take SC success from blizz's success overall is to take an arm or a leg from a man. And E-sports that they now trying to make money of, it was in 1/2 part created by Starcraft (the other half - by Quake/CS).
How sell WC3/SC2 without it????? Single player strategies are many - for example C&C series have BETTER single player. Honestly. Tiberian Sun has a lot more attractive single campaign.
So basically... I said an arm, but it can be more - like two arms, or two legs taken from a man. Do you think that without the major success of WC3/SC/SC2 Blizz would still be complete? Me, no, i don't.
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EPT
