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On October 08 2010 05:22 clusen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 05:17 torq wrote:
i wholeheartedly agree with you, i mean in a normal opening everyone build a depot first anyway, but thats not the point, this changes the basic mechanics of terran in such a fundamental way that it won't feel like terran anymore. an increase to barracks building time is a good nerf imo, lol. Only because some all-in strats have been nerfed the whole basic mechanics of Terran are changed? Why do you contradict yourself when you admit that it doesn't even touch any normal opening? It would be bad to increase the building time of barracks because that would change ANY opening.
No. Allin strats haven't been nerfed. They've been removed. I hate to be the guy supporting cheese, but this feels a bid ridiculous of a nerf.
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United States7166 Posts
On October 08 2010 05:24 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 05:22 clusen wrote:On October 08 2010 05:17 torq wrote:
i wholeheartedly agree with you, i mean in a normal opening everyone build a depot first anyway, but thats not the point, this changes the basic mechanics of terran in such a fundamental way that it won't feel like terran anymore. an increase to barracks building time is a good nerf imo, lol. Only because some all-in strats have been nerfed the whole basic mechanics of Terran are changed? Why do you contradict yourself when you admit that it doesn't even touch any normal opening? It would be bad to increase the building time of barracks because that would change ANY opening. No. Allin strats haven't been nerfed. They've been removed. I hate to be the guy supporting cheese, but this feels a bid ridiculous of a nerf.
On October 08 2010 05:08 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 05:00 EnderCN wrote:On October 08 2010 04:56 TedJustice wrote:
So the first barracks essentially costs 100 minerals more, and gives supply.
Kind of a fair trade, isn't it? If you want to do an aggressive opening, you just have to pay an extra 100 minerals.
I'm not saying it was unbalanced before, but I'm not complaining about how it'll be after this either. I tried messing around in yabot some. I can still open depot on 8 and double barracks following it. I had to chose between a bunker or an orbital command now but I still got a bunker down with 4 marines in it under 4 minutes into the game. Terran cheese is still viable, just not nearly as strong. Before you could do double rax on 9 and keep econ and military pumping non stop easily. give this man a medal because he seems to be one of the only ones who's not just going "oh well now X is just fucking impossible. nope no way now barracks rushes are completely impossible, everyone will 14 hatch/14 nexus w/o any concern, i know everything there is to know about this game, im not actually going to try to overcome patch changes with testing/trying stuff out, but instead im just going to bitch on a forum" i've never yet been more annoyed with SC2 tl forum posters yet than i have after reading this thread
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On October 08 2010 05:22 clusen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 05:17 torq wrote:
i wholeheartedly agree with you, i mean in a normal opening everyone build a depot first anyway, but thats not the point, this changes the basic mechanics of terran in such a fundamental way that it won't feel like terran anymore. an increase to barracks building time is a good nerf imo, lol. Only because some all-in strats have been nerfed the whole basic mechanics of Terran are changed? Why do you contradict yourself when you admit that it doesn't even touch any normal opening? It would be bad to increase the building time of barracks because that would change ANY opening.
Do you realized that requiring a depot before a rax is equivalent to increasing the build time of the rax? i hate faggots like you with no logic, go back to your moms basement.
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On October 08 2010 05:24 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 05:02 Deadlyfish wrote:
Ghosts cannot fight other units tbh. They cost alot (150/150?), and have almost no health. Only against ultralisks are they actually worth something, but even then they kinda suck when they arent doing nuke/EMP.
Having 100 health that takes no bonus damage is almost no health. and they wreck Ultra, zerg air, banelings, hydralisks and workers. ghosts are very good TvZ and the lack of them is probably why i'm pretty close to undefeated in ZvT.
Not that it matters in TvZ but ghosts are psionic and biological, and thus weak to archons and Templar. Anyhow, Snipe is rather micro intensive, and a bit gimmicky. I duno. I think you'd have to drastically change your build to incorporate ghosts, likely slowing or removing entirely medivacs.
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On October 08 2010 05:26 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 05:24 MythicalMage wrote:On October 08 2010 05:22 clusen wrote:On October 08 2010 05:17 torq wrote:
i wholeheartedly agree with you, i mean in a normal opening everyone build a depot first anyway, but thats not the point, this changes the basic mechanics of terran in such a fundamental way that it won't feel like terran anymore. an increase to barracks building time is a good nerf imo, lol. Only because some all-in strats have been nerfed the whole basic mechanics of Terran are changed? Why do you contradict yourself when you admit that it doesn't even touch any normal opening? It would be bad to increase the building time of barracks because that would change ANY opening. No. Allin strats haven't been nerfed. They've been removed. I hate to be the guy supporting cheese, but this feels a bid ridiculous of a nerf. Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 05:08 Zelniq wrote:On October 08 2010 05:00 EnderCN wrote:On October 08 2010 04:56 TedJustice wrote:
So the first barracks essentially costs 100 minerals more, and gives supply.
Kind of a fair trade, isn't it? If you want to do an aggressive opening, you just have to pay an extra 100 minerals.
I'm not saying it was unbalanced before, but I'm not complaining about how it'll be after this either. I tried messing around in yabot some. I can still open depot on 8 and double barracks following it. I had to chose between a bunker or an orbital command now but I still got a bunker down with 4 marines in it under 4 minutes into the game. Terran cheese is still viable, just not nearly as strong. Before you could do double rax on 9 and keep econ and military pumping non stop easily. give this man a medal because he seems to be one of the only ones who's not just going "oh well now X is just fucking impossible. nope no way now barracks rushes are completely impossible, everyone will 14 hatch/14 nexus w/o any concern, i know everything there is to know about this game, im not actually going to try to overcome patch changes with testing/trying stuff out, but instead im just going to bitch on a forum" i've never yet been more annoyed with SC2 tl forum posters yet than i have after reading this thread
<3 you zelniq. hahahah. sweet.
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I don't see why people are so upset with the depo before rax o_O
if you ain't cheesing and ain't all in you build your depo before rax anyway......
blizzard clearly is not supporting games like that
as a starcraft2 watcher (watching gomtv stream esl tv ect.) i welcome these changes because they make for longer more macro intense games which overall are way cooler to watch than 7 min all in cheese ....
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All ins have not been removed even if they really do make supply depo required. While I do agree it is a dumb change it will not remove all ins. An all in doesn't have to be proxy rax it can be 5 rax off of 1 base attack and if it fails you lose  .
The thing is if they do make the change would be interesting to see terrans cut workers to do a proxy rax early (by making a supply depo on like 7-8 for example). I dont' think blizzard will actually go through with this change thoubh imo.
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These stats are pretty meaningless, since they take out all the matches where the system doesn't think there is a 50/50 chance of someone winning (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/801651656?page=2#40).
Assuming two players of equal skill meet on the ladder. One is playing a stronger race and should favored as a result. Since they claim that the stats throw away those matches, you would expect the percentages to be 50/50.
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So Zerg > Terran in every league but silver ? P>T until diamond (where 4 warpgate is countered)
Well, could some of the professional QQers explain those interesting statistics ?
Reading this forum, I thought Terran was so excessively OP that they granted automatic wins.
As for this patch, it simply deletes early agression for T (while zerg still has Xpool, baneling bust or roaches).
As for reapers they should be removed from the game, they will be ridiculously useless now. Yea they can scout but.. you know, I have vikings and they do a better job at it.
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On October 08 2010 05:24 MythicalMage wrote:
No. Allin strats haven't been nerfed. They've been removed. I hate to be the guy supporting cheese, but this feels a bid ridiculous of a nerf.
First off all: no, it touches only a few all-in strats. And how many games have you played with the patch that you can present it as a fact that they will not work anymore?
I don't say that the nerf is good or bad, I just do not agree with the reasoning/ the hyperboles many people throw around here.
€
On October 08 2010 05:26 torq wrote:
Do you realized that requiring a depot before a rax is equivalent to increasing the build time of the rax? i hate faggots like you with no logic, go back to your moms basement.
No, it's something very different. May be hard for you to figure out why(well, I actually told you before), but I guess you will get some time off for that.
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On October 08 2010 05:26 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 05:24 MythicalMage wrote:On October 08 2010 05:22 clusen wrote:On October 08 2010 05:17 torq wrote:
i wholeheartedly agree with you, i mean in a normal opening everyone build a depot first anyway, but thats not the point, this changes the basic mechanics of terran in such a fundamental way that it won't feel like terran anymore. an increase to barracks building time is a good nerf imo, lol. Only because some all-in strats have been nerfed the whole basic mechanics of Terran are changed? Why do you contradict yourself when you admit that it doesn't even touch any normal opening? It would be bad to increase the building time of barracks because that would change ANY opening. No. Allin strats haven't been nerfed. They've been removed. I hate to be the guy supporting cheese, but this feels a bid ridiculous of a nerf. Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 05:08 Zelniq wrote:On October 08 2010 05:00 EnderCN wrote:On October 08 2010 04:56 TedJustice wrote:
So the first barracks essentially costs 100 minerals more, and gives supply.
Kind of a fair trade, isn't it? If you want to do an aggressive opening, you just have to pay an extra 100 minerals.
I'm not saying it was unbalanced before, but I'm not complaining about how it'll be after this either. I tried messing around in yabot some. I can still open depot on 8 and double barracks following it. I had to chose between a bunker or an orbital command now but I still got a bunker down with 4 marines in it under 4 minutes into the game. Terran cheese is still viable, just not nearly as strong. Before you could do double rax on 9 and keep econ and military pumping non stop easily. give this man a medal because he seems to be one of the only ones who's not just going "oh well now X is just fucking impossible. nope no way now barracks rushes are completely impossible, everyone will 14 hatch/14 nexus w/o any concern, i know everything there is to know about this game, im not actually going to try to overcome patch changes with testing/trying stuff out, but instead im just going to bitch on a forum" i've never yet been more annoyed with SC2 tl forum posters yet than i have after reading this thread
I suppose you're right. XD. It just seems that you're taking away/drastically lessening an option, and that just doesn't sit well with me. You won't take away the zerg's ability to six/seven pool, or the Protoss's cannon rush, so why this? But I guess it's similar to proxy gates and the like.
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What are you confused about? There are 3 possible outcomes when you select random. If it truly is random, the ratio you see amongst race distribution will be unchanged. The random outcome is simply being factored in these statistics.
I know, I just figured they would include Random players into the statistic. So I guess they just distributed the Random players 1/3 amongst the races. I'm just saying it kind of inflates the percentages. Because I think about 8% of population is Random.
just noticed the wording on the blizz blog "Here are a few of the changes we currently have planned"
so 1.2 wont be as dissappointing as 1.1 just having the few changes that were prev anounced?
These may be the only balance changes planned. I'm sure they'll be adding and altering all sorts of things as well. I wouldn't give your hopes up on more balance changes than this. These are much more significant than 1.1 already.
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On October 08 2010 05:27 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 05:24 PrinceXizor wrote:On October 08 2010 05:02 Deadlyfish wrote:
Ghosts cannot fight other units tbh. They cost alot (150/150?), and have almost no health. Only against ultralisks are they actually worth something, but even then they kinda suck when they arent doing nuke/EMP.
Having 100 health that takes no bonus damage is almost no health. and they wreck Ultra, zerg air, banelings, hydralisks and workers. ghosts are very good TvZ and the lack of them is probably why i'm pretty close to undefeated in ZvT. Not that it matters in TvZ but ghosts are psionic and biological, and thus weak to archons and Templar. Anyhow, Snipe is rather micro intensive, and a bit gimmicky. I duno. I think you'd have to drastically change your build to incorporate ghosts, likely slowing or removing entirely medivacs.
You could you know, take another base. like we do ^^ and yeah i was talking about TvZ Ghosts. and if snipe is micro intensive than infested terran is just as micro intensive. hotkey + shift +clickclickclickclickclickclick is not micro intensive.
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Unless Blizzard intend to have Reaper able to use stim pack, I don't see how it can be useful anymore.
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I think if you are going to do a cheesy build, it should be all-in. You shouldn't be able to potentially end the game 4 minutes in and still have a decent economy etc.
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On October 08 2010 05:29 clusen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 05:24 MythicalMage wrote:
No. Allin strats haven't been nerfed. They've been removed. I hate to be the guy supporting cheese, but this feels a bid ridiculous of a nerf. First off all: no, it touches only a few all-in strats. And how many games have you played with the patch that you can present it as a fact that they will not work anymore? I don't say that the nerf is good or bad, I just do not agree with the reasoning/ the hyperboles many people throw around here.
Ok, perhaps I misworded it. I was just thinking that taking away the THREAT of a proxy barracks might affect the game negatively. (less scouting needed, riskier expansions, etc.) But it seems rather minimal now that I think of it.
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sorry, hit quote instead of edit 
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On October 08 2010 05:26 torq wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 05:22 clusen wrote:On October 08 2010 05:17 torq wrote:
i wholeheartedly agree with you, i mean in a normal opening everyone build a depot first anyway, but thats not the point, this changes the basic mechanics of terran in such a fundamental way that it won't feel like terran anymore. an increase to barracks building time is a good nerf imo, lol. Only because some all-in strats have been nerfed the whole basic mechanics of Terran are changed? Why do you contradict yourself when you admit that it doesn't even touch any normal opening? It would be bad to increase the building time of barracks because that would change ANY opening. Do you realized that requiring a depot before a rax is equivalent to increasing the build time of the rax? i hate faggots like you with no logic, go back to your moms basement.
Nice logical post followed by an unnecessary addition of ad hominem. No reason to slap that on the end.
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Increasing Roach range is going decimate the pvz matchup unless it's just to 3.5. Looking forward to seeing how this goes.
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i think the biggest buff for zerg in this patch is that a lot terran start playing zerg because of fundamental changes like depo before rax... yeah its so fundamentaalalalalalallallalala hahaha omg what a nonsense still wondering why so many people play this game??? terra on rage.. really nice
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EPT
