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QueueQueue
Canada1000 Posts
The Barracks are going to require a Supply Depot, which will impact a lot of early terran reaper pushes. I am all for game balance. The tank nerf, reaper build time nerf, and bunker nerf were all pretty justified, but this is just stupid. Raxx before depot isn't overpowered by any means. It gives early aggression options which is just a part of SC. It is not impossible, or even incredibly difficult to stop when scouted... Just like proxy gates. | ||
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Obsolescence
United States270 Posts
On October 08 2010 02:20 Chronicle wrote: Exactly. This is going to turn out to be a serious problem. So what do protoss do vs terran (marine has range 5)? Or what did they do vs hydralisks in BW? I never played the multiplayer competitively in BW but I'm aware that forge FE was common or at least usable. | ||
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noD
2230 Posts
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Darksoldierr
Hungary2013 Posts
On October 08 2010 02:20 Toadily wrote: I like how everyone keeps saying that toss FE is now dead, think about BW. Hydras had longer range, moved faster, costed less supply than roaches. Yes there were threats of hydra busts, but toss players pretty much forge expanded every single game anyways. You know what they did? They built more than a single cannon when they scout the bust, why the f would you people think that it's perfectly fine that ONE cannon should be able to keep you 100% safe. The problem is that Roach has double amount of hp than hydra | ||
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cHaNg-sTa
United States1058 Posts
1. You still outrange roaches, insane isn't it? 2. I'm sorry your straight tech to tier 2 build isn't fail-proof. Just because roaches are made doesn't mean you auto lose, it just means you can't still constantly abuse Hellions. I know, adjusting your build order? What Terran does that?!?! 3. Hellion are still a mineral sink that can effectively kill workers fast still. And if your micro is good enough, you can still outrange roaches (yes, I know I already said this). If the zerg is able to confront you directly as you enter creep, I think the Zerg should able to a few more shots off rather than Terran still being able to kite initially without taking hits. | ||
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iRRelevance
Romania725 Posts
On October 08 2010 01:44 Uhh Negative wrote: Or pylon before gateway.... oh wait.... C'mon man ... terran =! protoss AND marine=! zealot Supply before before rax is a BAD BAD ideea. | ||
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Fraidnot
United States824 Posts
On October 08 2010 02:21 heishe wrote: Wow, so many people in here against the depot->barracks change. So you like random coinflipping and guessing games instead of actual skill-dependent games? Because that's exactly what it is when you proxy, or when you 6-pool etc. It's just gamble which either wins you the game outright, or loses you the game outright, with little to no margin of error in between. It's not just a "risk-taking" strategy like going for a little more econ instead of army which may give you a small disadvantage if it fails, it's a 99.99% definitive All-in which fails in every case except the ones that you're trying to luck-counter (and call metagame what you want, in the end it's just luck and nothing more, since the "i know that you know that i know" game can be continued endlessly). Most importantly, those luck-dependent builds give wins to players who just don't deserve them. It's a good thing super-early proxying from Terran is gone for good. Just a coincidence that this was your 666th post? I don't think so. | ||
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
I'm glad to see they're making a change to the roaches as well. They're so frustrating when I make them and they just dont attack. It's sad that I need to babysit them because they get the mentality of "I think I can, but I don't feel like chasing it." | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On October 08 2010 02:22 Chronicle wrote: Any comment on my opinion of VR being the "Flying Reaper?". In what way? I ll try to find it but I missed your post. I think the void ray is a lot more useful in a lot more situations than the reaper to be honest (mass speed void rays are quite decent late game TvP) - but yeah I can see some similiarities. | ||
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Chen
United States6344 Posts
On October 08 2010 02:12 VonLego wrote: Protoss should still be able to cannon vs roach, just likely needs a 2 space gap now instead of 1. Might need to do some practicality testing on this one though. no >.> with 4 range, if cannons are 2 back of the gateway the roaches kill the gateway while the cannons cant shoot back. if cannons protect the gateway the roaches can hit the cannon. | ||
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Cranberries
Wales567 Posts
On October 08 2010 02:23 Liquid`Jinro wrote: If you cant be aggressive against zerg, and put pressure on them, you are - on a lot of maps/positions - forced into playing a ridiculously boring turtle style where you simply camp until the zerg commits suicide out of boredom. But once again Im not commenting patch specifically here - Im just saying that if terran were to lose all options of aggression the matchup would probably be broken in zergs favour UNLESS terran plays a very specific and very boring (for both players) style. Note that pressure doesnt have to be a rax before supply type pressure, but if the new roach change ruins a lot of other terran openings, well that could be bad for the matchup. Dropships are still going to be good harassment. Hellions will still be useful, they are after all faster than Roaches off and on creep (without Roach speed upgrade I think). Banshees will still be a good followup after Hellions. Allowing the Zerg to actually prepare against some harassment isn't a bad thing, if you commit them to make a Roach Warren you could just go Banshee or Thor. It's not as if you're commited to harassing Zerg when you've already made them expend precious larva on Roaches or Zerglings. | ||
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gotterdammerung
Austria17 Posts
On October 08 2010 02:20 Zyphen wrote: Sweet. I was starting to get bored with Terran anyway. I'm switching main to Toss once this patch hits. This does little to fix PvZ imba and will help immensely with PvT. I love 10 rax vs Toss (reapers and/or marauders) and this will completely kill that opening. I won't ever have to worry about it. Now FE vs Terran is unstoppable. I love how Blizz says they aren't going to overreact and then do so. It's going to be a merry-go-round of imba. Just hot swap to best race. GG. Hell yeah, you know what sir you have a right attitude. at first i was upset, The terran cheese option isnt that strong anyway, and usually gets held off by toss unless they fast expand. Im going to switch to toss as well, colussus, high templars, archons, forward pylons, not to mention rediculously fast zealots. Im switching to toss as well, terran wont be able to stop the late game toss. at first i was upset, but no reason to be really, just switch to the OP race | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
On October 08 2010 02:23 snowdrift wrote: The threat of all-ins and cheese is necessary to force players to be honest. Otherwise everyone can go for the greediest opening every game. Yes, but only to a certain degree, especially when it comes to Zerg. Safely being able to open hatch-first is pretty "honest". And it's not like Protoss can go expand before gate now. | ||
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On October 08 2010 02:15 Gentso wrote: Why is blizzard releasing Matchmaking win %'s when the system is DESIGNED to keep you at 50% anyway? The system keeps you at 50% overall, not 50% vP 50% vT and 50% vZ. This means that if say Zerg was really terrible versus terran but had some crazy I win strategy versus P the matchmaking would show 50% but in reality you would have 70% wins vP and 30% wins vT which is not balanced. They released the matchup stats which are meaningful. They show that (in diamond) the ZvT and PvT matchups are won about half the time by each side and ZvP is slightly skewed in protoss' favor. This does not mean that the matchups are perfect because again there could be a situation where say P wins half the time in the first 10 minutes and T wins as soon as the game goes longer which is not a fun matchup. As for the tweaks: - Roach range to 4 (I am guessing, to 5 would be excessive imo). Nice, helps defend harass and makes them better around chokes (both offensive and defensive). Still can be kited by most of the same units (stalker, MMM) but are a little better in the early and mid game where Zerg lacked the ability to push up a ramp (we still will but this might help). - Reaper speed needs factory. Delaying reaper speed means the 3-5 rax reaper is less viable. It was an annoying and gimmicky strategy so I'm not upset at that. - Depot before Barracks. Interesting ... means that Terrans may need to play more macro games instead of 1 base all ins because their opponents can macro off the bat without worrying about a 6 or 9 rax. This makes no difference to standard build timings though (10 depot 12 rax). - Fungal stops blink. Needed doing, it stops burrow and generally locks things down, Blink was the exception. Mass blink stalkers are a problem ZvP and this gives Zerg a solid solution to stopping their mobility. - Zerg building health. Good, Zerg were extremely vulnerable to drops because of the 1 building per unit system, making the buildings a little tougher just gives a little more time to save them. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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Quepp42
United States96 Posts
I think the roach buff is fantastic, however, I agree with the person who stated that hydras will pretty neglected once this happens (not that they are used that much now). I wish the hydra would get an upgrade to give me incentive to buy them considering they are so darn expensive for how easily killed they are. | ||
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Foreplay
United States1154 Posts
On October 08 2010 02:13 Rah wrote: that's sad. reaper openings were one of the few high risk/ high reward strategies in the early game. even though it was frustrating on the zerg's end, those should at least be an option, maybe nerfed some but not into oblivion. wc4 how is a reaper opening high risk? if you can't do damage you just take your complete map control and expand. Maybe if you lose all your reapers you might be in trouble but thats pretty hard to do. That being said i do agree that they are way over nerfing them. | ||
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
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Nirano
Canada77 Posts
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