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On October 08 2010 01:29 flyinfart wrote:
It would be nice if they made void ray require a fleet beacon. Proxy void ray is ridiculous, especially on maps like LT. Otherwise, I can agree with most of their changes. Though, 6pooling/other cheese is going to become way more devastating to terran.
i lol'd, you bad?
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On October 08 2010 01:46 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
WHAT. THE. FUCK?
Fuck my life, all hellion and reaper builds just died?
So this leaves what, camp like a whore for 30 minutes with planetary fortresses? Fun times.
If they increase the range to 3.5 hellion vs roach might still work, if it is 4 however...
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On October 08 2010 01:48 Angelbelow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 01:22 Bommes wrote:
If they buff Zerg building HP they should also fix assimilator HP. Seriously, is there any good reason why protoss gas almost doubles Zerg and Terran gas HP? It's SO annoying.
Good changes though from my point of view. The supply depot requirement for Rax is kinda lame though because it will reduce the only terran opening structures to 10 depot 12 rax without the possibility of 9 rax 10 depot and stuff like that, which is actually quite common.
But I don't mind, looking forward to these changes and what impact they will have.
well this one isnt too bad, i mean an extractor is only 25 minerals =p. pretty cool buffs all around though. I personally dont think the supply depot required for a barracks is necessary, esp if theyre gonna make reaper speed a factory level upgrade. pretty interesting patch all around though, cant wait to see how it works out.
Because Drones don't cost money or larva.
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It's funny how many people can EXACTLY measure how useful a unit can be (Reaper)... 2 months after release. Try to think what happened in Brood War...
I think the Terran changes are very good. I don't know how important it is to put Reaper speed in the factory - seems a bit excessive.
Roach range is great vs Terran but i think it could be kinda hard on Protoss. It should not be more than range 4 imho.
I still think cooldown on MULE and Chrono boost would be fair.
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On October 08 2010 01:48 Reborn58 wrote:
Even at the highest levels there is a 50% win percentage for zerg, so this would lead you to believe that they are actually of the proper skill level for their division. Nowhere close to true. Look at the gosu rankings, or the way zergs win 6% of tournaments.
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if they're going to nerf Reaper as an early game unit, they should buff it a bit as a midgame unit. Let it shoot air, or give it some more health or something. Make it a viable army unit, and not just a cheese unit.
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On October 08 2010 01:51 Raevin wrote:Show nested quote +At first glance, reapaers seem useless, but teamliquid shouldn't overreact. We don't understand the game yet. It's hard to argue that they're a useful supplement Please dont give us the "we dont understand the game yet it needs time to grow!" Reapers as a unit are only useful for early harass, working much better against Zerg than Toss becuase Toss has Stalkers. Its a gimmicky unit that only worked in really special circumstances, sure you can be cute like a button and make some in mid game to scout and be all like "look at mah jetpacks mom!" but overall the unit will see no play.
Reapers were deemed useless in the Beta until they started being used early vs protoss.
Then they were deemed useless before 5Rax Reaper.
Now they are deemed useless again. Chances are they will come back and be useful again.
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On October 08 2010 01:50 Obsolescence wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 01:47 MrBitter wrote:On October 08 2010 01:46 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
WHAT. THE. FUCK?
Fuck my life, all hellion and reaper builds just died?
So this leaves what, camp like a whore for 30 minutes with planetary fortresses? Fun times. Wait. What? Hellion builds will be ineffective because apparently roaches were meant to counter them, and not just be kited by them. Of course, since the roach range boost is probably only going to be +1 (3 -> 4), the hellions will still out-range roaches by 1 I believe (2 for partial).
Ahh, this makes sense.
Still though, Hellion builds (unless you're TLO) never revolved around killing roachs with hellions. They're about abusing mobility to inflict eco damage. Unless Blizz does something dumb like give roaches hydra range, I think this will still be completely viable.
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On October 08 2010 01:50 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 01:46 Chronicle wrote:On October 08 2010 01:39 Pekkz wrote:On October 08 2010 01:29 Chronicle wrote:
Ok so increasing roach range helps them vs reapers fair enough but why not nerf the reaper range instead? Why do roaches need the extra range, they are good as they are. Now now only are Protoss going to be kited by them all day long it will mean that they will be able to hit cannons 1 space away from Protoss walls, which will make Mass roach really really hard to stop. As for the terran barracks requiring a depo it is pretty silly. Would rather that the Nexus gave off a power field so Protoss has the option of skipping pylons and are not instantly screwed the second their first is sniped.
Overall at least blizzard is "trying" this time, but they still are not hitting the mark. You cant cannon zerg inn and fast expo anymore? Sad day for you. Zerg had no good options to be agressive cus everyone just walled off. Now we can harass a player who gets too greedy, and thats gonna be sweet. And no, roaches where not good as they are. They where OK in many situations, but protoss and terran could basicly make any composition and they worked fine against roaches. Now you may actually have to get more then a couple immortals to counter them, and thats gonna be legendary. Learn 2 Read - No-one mentioned about cannoning in the Zerg. The topic is cannoning OUT the Zerg, something that will no longer be possible if the roachs can not only tank the cannons but hit them behind walls. And if you think for 1 moment that roaches are a bad unit atm then you are one of the few. Giving Protoss no defensive options vs Fast roaches will leave Protoss in the same boat Zerg are in now vs Fast reaper - IE Totally fucked. No way. Fast roaches after the patch will die to the same thing that kills them now: Stalkers and force field.
Thats what Slow roachs die to. Fast roachs come out and arrive before enough stalker/sentry exist to stop them. Roachs with more range will be able to kite Zealots same as marines, which will be bullshit.
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On October 08 2010 01:48 TheTuna wrote:
This is so win, I've been telling my friend for WEEKS that PvT isn't hard for protoss, it's even at worst. Fuck yeah.
I also would love to know why Assimilator HP is so much higher than Extractor or Refinery.
you can repair extractor, you can transfuse rafinery
also drone gass steals (canceling and rebuilding) is harder to deal with (as T) than assimilator steal
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On October 08 2010 01:36 Reborn58 wrote:
Personally I think you should need an engineering bay or factory or something to build a bunker to stop the stupid proxy 2 rax bunker plays that so many people are doing to get their wins for pictures.
So hard to stop it even when you scout it...
Thats a pretty bad idea to be honest. Terran needs bunkers to stop 4gate and the like.
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Rax requiring Depot.. WTF. That is just STRANGE.
Increasing Roach range? I loved how all units had diversity. Roaches were powerful early siege units that compensated with 3 range while everyone else has 5-6 range (MM, stalker, immort, sentry, hydras, etc).
Roaches having more range makes them that more bland. It just turns them into Stalkers without blink or marauders without stim. You find less lazy way to buff Roaches Blizzard. Come on.
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Roach range was kind of low for sure... I never felt the need to build them especially since they cost 2 supply. I mean a 2 supply unit that dies super easy to mauraders and immortals and can't get close to anything to kill it? BAD.
I'm stoked for these changes. I also hope they increase the HP of the spine crawler. That thing is kind of a joke. It only repels small attacks.
All in all, I think these changes are much needed and appreciated. I think they will help to balance the game and make playing Zerg more fun again.
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On October 08 2010 01:40 Woony wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 01:38 CidO wrote:Very much happy about the roach range, as long as it's 5+ and not a increase from 3->4 I will be happy. I don't agree though with the double nerf of barracks/reaper. I think such a radical change to reapers is why I'm a little shocked, compared to blizzard in 1.1 wanting to just adjust build times by 5 seconds, a complete 180 of what they said they were trying to do. The balance changes in our next patch will primarily focus on improving the zerg. Here are a few of the changes we currently have planned: -Blizz Hopefully this time there will be more than what is listed here, and I am glad they recognize to focus on buffing zerg as opposed to nerfing the other two races. They said they also want to balance team games and even though the reaper wasn't that much of an big deal in 1v1 anymore, it was grossly strong in team games. And 5+ Roaches seem hugely overpowered. an buff to range 4 would be far enough.
The problem i have with a 3 and 4 ranch roach is balance in comparison to stalkers and marauders, and even marines - what they counter. That is not saying "oh roaches need to beat marauders" that is pound for pound in the later game, as blizzard said, marauders are more viable for their supply for terran than roaches are for zerg. and the same with stalkers being supportive of colossi etc.
Now if roaches were still 1 supply, yes a 3 range would be fitting, but at 2 supply, 3 range has been just absurd.
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The depot before rax charge seems stupid tbh, and why is the reaper even in the game?
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These changes are good for every race.
Barracks before Depot against Protoss is too strong.
Barracks before Depot against Zerg is too strong.
In both scenarios the Terran comes out too far ahead.
The Roach range increase is a subtle answer to the cannon wall in and cannon behind Gateways. It's very good, very interesting which doesn't nerf Protoss- who need no nerfs- but buffs a Zerg unit which is pretty poor for it's supply.
The Fungal Growth change makes Fungal Growth a better option in ZvP. Blink Stalkers have too much mobility against Zerg regardless of creep- if it's present it's a lot better, but if creep isn't present it's horrible to deal with.
Reaper speed requiring Factory? That's fine too.
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United States22883 Posts
These changes seem very ill-conceived to me, but one thing to keep in mind is that the next patch is at least 2 months out. That's still a lot of time for the metagame for shift. Still, I can't help but feel like Blizzard is approaching SC2 balance the way they approach WoW balance, especially by factoring in plat/gold/silver/bronze win % numbers. :/
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yes finally i can six pool vs terrans in peace
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This is a good reason for me to switch back to zerg. I don't think blizzard knows how much they're changing zvt by implementing this patch.
Also, LOL reapers. It was a good run, but you're the new scout of SC2.
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Australia7069 Posts
On October 08 2010 01:53 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 01:50 Obsolescence wrote:On October 08 2010 01:47 MrBitter wrote:On October 08 2010 01:46 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
WHAT. THE. FUCK?
Fuck my life, all hellion and reaper builds just died?
So this leaves what, camp like a whore for 30 minutes with planetary fortresses? Fun times. Wait. What? Hellion builds will be ineffective because apparently roaches were meant to counter them, and not just be kited by them. Of course, since the roach range boost is probably only going to be +1 (3 -> 4), the hellions will still out-range roaches by 1 I believe (2 for partial). Ahh, this makes sense. Still though, Hellion builds (unless you're TLO) never revolved around killing roachs with hellions. They're about abusing mobility to inflict eco damage. Unless Blizz does something dumb like give roaches hydra range, I think this will still be completely viable.
TLO kiting roaches with hellions still took some hits. With say 4 range this would be really hard as you only have 1 hex of leeway in the kiting
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EPT
