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Recently the Overseer was given Transfusion (Instantly restores 200 hitpoints to target unit or structure). I believe that this ability is much better suited for the Protoss for the following reasons:
-Fits with Protoss lore
-Protoss units feel more worth saving, it is funner to heal Protoss than Zerg.
-Protoss have more units you would want to use heal on.
-Transfusion is attention intensive, costly, and heals allot. All of these work well with high value units.
-Shields make it more likely that you will have a unit with damaged HP. T and Z damaged units usually die very soon after being damaged.
-Blink, force field, Immortal Shields, and Phase Shift also increase unit longevity. This increases the usefulness of healing.
-Mothership and Dark Pylon are obvious candidates. Both play a unit support role.
-Protoss lack any healing. This detracts from the enjoyment of playing Protoss dramatically. The argument that no healing makes Protoss unique and special is a weak one at best.
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On May 07 2009 07:56 Archerofaiur wrote:
-Protoss lack any healing. This detracts from the enjoyment of playing Protoss dramatically. The argument that no healing makes Protoss unique and special is a weak one at best.
dont protoss units heal half their hp on their own?
ie. shields
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Zerg, at least in broodwar, though to a lesser extent it seems in SC2, has many cheap units that die easily...however, they also have, in the late game, stronger units that do not, and are very costly. in BW they have the ultralisk, lurker, guardian, etc.
Toss has all expensive units, and half of their HP can regenerate anyway. It's not that a lack of healing makes toss "unique" and "special", but prevents them from being too overpowered. Individually, they have the strongest units in the game as it is.
Facing off against a toss with good macro AND the ability to heal damaged units would make it near damn impossible for zerg and terran to truly dent their army. Lost units free up supply that will come out of the gateway in the next production round. Damaged units get healed up, and Z/T is back right where they started.
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I knew someone would take the bait 
On May 07 2009 08:01 PH wrote:
Zerg, at least in broodwar, though to a lesser extent it seems in SC2, has many cheap units that die easily...however, they also have, in the late game, stronger units that do not, and are very costly. in BW they have the ultralisk, lurker, guardian, etc.
Lurker has 125 hitpoints so if you use transfusion on even that unit your getting gypped.
On May 07 2009 08:01 PH wrote:
Toss has all expensive units, and half of their HP can regenerate anyway.
No half of their HP cannot regenerate. Their shields can regenerate.
On May 07 2009 08:01 PH wrote:
It's not that a lack of healing makes toss "unique" and "special", but prevents them from being too overpowered.
No evidence provided.
On May 07 2009 08:01 PH wrote:
Facing off against a toss with good macro AND the ability to heal damaged units would make it near damn impossible for zerg and terran to truly dent their army.
No evidence provided. (btw feel free to call me out for the same thing)
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Damn, all your reasons are terrible and has nothing to do with nothing.
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United States43350 Posts
I don't like it. Protoss are spiritual things, unconcerned with the physical side of it all. That and they're pretty hardcore. If you asked a zealot if he wanted a bit of looking after and some time off he'd rip you a new hole.
Zerg regen because they're organic, engineered killing machines which would be 'designed' to regen.
Terran repair because they're conscious and aware of how fragile they are in comparison to the rest of the universe.
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Sweden33719 Posts
I think shield regen is waaaaaaay more "fluffy" for toss.
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Healing Protoss is fucking stupid.
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On May 07 2009 08:10 Archerofaiur wrote:I knew someone would take the bait Show nested quote +On May 07 2009 08:01 PH wrote:
Zerg, at least in broodwar, though to a lesser extent it seems in SC2, has many cheap units that die easily...however, they also have, in the late game, stronger units that do not, and are very costly. in BW they have the ultralisk, lurker, guardian, etc. Lurker has 125 hitpoints so if you use transfusion on even that unit your getting gypped. Show nested quote +On May 07 2009 08:01 PH wrote:
Toss has all expensive units, and half of their HP can regenerate anyway. No half of their HP cannot regenerate. Their shields can regenerate. Show nested quote +On May 07 2009 08:01 PH wrote:
It's not that a lack of healing makes toss "unique" and "special", but prevents them from being too overpowered. No evidence provided. Show nested quote +On May 07 2009 08:01 PH wrote:
Facing off against a toss with good macro AND the ability to heal damaged units would make it near damn impossible for zerg and terran to truly dent their army. No evidence provided. (btw feel free to call me out for the same thing)
ok imagine thsi scenario : protoss engages a terran push his Heallots(TM) are now able tos hit all over your tanks without running out of hp. Who needs dragoons when your units already heal!
Seriously it would be im fucking possible to beat that.
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On May 07 2009 08:10 Archerofaiur wrote:I knew someone would take the bait Show nested quote +On May 07 2009 08:01 PH wrote:
Zerg, at least in broodwar, though to a lesser extent it seems in SC2, has many cheap units that die easily...however, they also have, in the late game, stronger units that do not, and are very costly. in BW they have the ultralisk, lurker, guardian, etc. Lurker has 125 hitpoints so if you use transfusion on even that unit your getting gypped. Show nested quote +On May 07 2009 08:01 PH wrote:
Toss has all expensive units, and half of their HP can regenerate anyway. No half of their HP cannot regenerate. Their shields can regenerate. Show nested quote +On May 07 2009 08:01 PH wrote:
It's not that a lack of healing makes toss "unique" and "special", but prevents them from being too overpowered. No evidence provided. Show nested quote +On May 07 2009 08:01 PH wrote:
Facing off against a toss with good macro AND the ability to heal damaged units would make it near damn impossible for zerg and terran to truly dent their army. No evidence provided. (btw feel free to call me out for the same thing)
Early game it seems to make sense to use transfusion on sunks, mid game on lurkers/queens, late game on ultras/queens. You might be gyped of some hp on a lurker, but an extra volley or two of lurker spines sometimes make a huge difference. Lorewise it makes much more sense for zerg to have healing abilities since they're biological creatures that could easily get a transfusion of energy from an overseer. Protoss on the other hand, should only be able to heal spiritual energy, or shield.
So a few things you tried to refute, hp or shield, it's still part of the unit's life. So yes technically the shield isn't the same as hp, but essentially it acts the same way. A few small technical details like damage modifiers and armor makes it behave differently mechanically, but the point is it's still part of the unit's health.
As for evidence of overpowered toss units that heal, try playing a 2v2 fight with medics healing zealots vs most things. They take out an abnormally large amount of units when compared to normal unhealed zealots.
The last quote, look at an archon that has the benefit of a shield battery, or even 4-5 archons in a late game pvz. They dominate so much because their splash and massive amount of damage, Since they have so much shield they usually don't die and after the battle is over they heal up again. It's REALLY difficult to kill off that toss ball of archons mixed with some zeal/goon acting as shields.
On a side note, you can't really make an argument demanding evidence when sc2 isn't even out yet. I mean, I tried to provide the best analogies from broodwar, but asking for gameplay evidence of a game that hasn't even been released yet is just being obnoxious.
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you could put "no evidence provided" behind pretty much all of your reasons too...
On May 07 2009 07:56 Archerofaiur wrote:
-Protoss units feel more worth saving, it is funner to heal Protoss than Zerg.
i must have missed the "which races' units are funner to heal" poll on TL
On May 07 2009 07:56 Archerofaiur wrote:
-Shields make it more likely that you will have a unit with damaged HP. T and Z damaged units usually die very soon after being damaged.
shields actually make it less likely that you'll have a unit with damaged HP. the average protoss unit has around 30-40% shields and the rest is hp. when a protoss engages in a battle, its shield will act like a buffer, allowing it to take a few hits before its hp is even touched. so when a protoss unit survives a battle, only around 60% of the time will their hp actually be touched. whereas terran and zerg will have their hp damaged 100% of the time after being hit...
(side note: these numbers i'm just randomly spewing out are in no way accurate, they're just there for the sake of my laziness)
On May 07 2009 07:56 Archerofaiur wrote:
The argument that no healing makes Protoss unique and special is a weak one at best.
honestly, who have you heard say that?
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On May 07 2009 08:17 Kwark wrote:
I don't like it. Protoss are spiritual things, unconcerned with the physical side of it all. That and they're pretty hardcore. If you asked a zealot if he wanted a bit of looking after and some time off he'd rip you a new hole.
Zerg regen because they're organic, engineered killing machines which would be 'designed' to regen.
Terran repair because they're conscious and aware of how fragile they are in comparison to the rest of the universe.
I agree with Kwark, the protoss is the only race that is willing to give up their lives for Auir unlike the other race's that doesn't care about their planet that is why they don't want to heal the physical side.
And of course, if Zealots can be healed then there would be no lore for immortals production.
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You're taking the lame race that the rest of us don't like and making it lamer.
lol j/k
but why? shield batteries..... Well, i don't know if they're in SC2.
but from what i've seen, shields charge ridiculously fast, you know. This is too much... i am always depressed when i send my last living zergling to attack the zealot with 20 hp left, and it takes more than 4 hits, and my poor zergling... *sniff*
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Healing with the new buffed up shield regen rate will be rediculous. I mean, after not getting hit for a little while (X seconds), their shields will regen to full in a matter of a few seconds (longer for things like archons obviously). This is by far one of the most useful lifesavers for the protoss in SC2 (not getting into the discussion of whether they need it or not). Giving them more healers just makes it redundant and possibly overpowered.
You also mentioned a bunch of other ways which the protoss can lengthen longevity. What makes you think they need even MORE ways?
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Dominican Republic463 Posts
On May 07 2009 08:11 .risingdragoon wrote:
Damn, all your reasons are terrible and has nothing to do with nothing.
This.
Seems like you're arguing for the sake of it.
And half of their HP does regen, I dont care if its shields, you have to hit it just like if it was HP.
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LOL I seem to have riled some feathers.
On May 07 2009 08:19 FrozenArbiter wrote:
I think shield regen is waaaaaaay more "fluffy" for toss.
Whats fluffy about a mothership with 7 hitpoints left?
On May 07 2009 08:17 Kwark wrote:
I don't like it. Protoss are spiritual things, unconcerned with the physical side of it all. That and they're pretty hardcore. If you asked a zealot if he wanted a bit of looking after and some time off he'd rip you a new hole.
Protoss are about preservation. Their race is dying out. They sacrifice a warriors life only when nessesary.Not needlessly. They value their warriors and outfit them with the most sophisticated of weaponry. They bestow on them teleportation devices to pull them out of danger at the last possible moment.
On May 07 2009 08:27 arb wrote:
ok imagine thsi scenario : protoss engages a terran push his Heallots(TM) are now able tos hit all over your tanks without running out of hp. Who needs dragoons when your units already heal!
You have a 50 energy spell with a cooldown. You will only be able to do one Heallot (cute btw) and that Heallot isnts going to take out the tank line.
On May 07 2009 08:47 IrrasO wrote:
you could put "no evidence provided" behind pretty much all of your reasons too...
Thats why I said feel free to call me out on it. I was feeling lazy when I made the post but will be happy to give you evidence for any of the points if you want it.
On May 07 2009 08:47 IrrasO wrote:
shields actually make it less likely that you'll have a unit with damaged HP. the average protoss unit has around 30-40% shields and the rest is hp. when a protoss engages in a battle, its shield will act like a buffer, allowing it to take a few hits before its hp is even touched. so when a protoss unit survives a battle, only around 60% of the time will their hp actually be touched. whereas terran and zerg will have their hp damaged 100% of the time after being hit...
Good point. My statement should have been that High health (hp+shields) make it more likely for units to last the battle and thus healable.
On May 07 2009 08:47 IrrasO wrote:
honestly, who have you heard say that?
Karune
http://sc2pod.com/trackers/blue/?id=10
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Sweden33719 Posts
-Fits with Protoss lore
Eh, it does and it doesn't. SC 1 toss had ways to heal shield but certainly no way to heal HPs. I don't really know that it fits extremely well with toss lore.
-Protoss units feel more worth saving, it is funner to heal Protoss than Zerg.
Again, shield battery type things do the same thing while remaining unique.
-Protoss have more units you would want to use heal on.
Most toss units have half their total HPs made up from shields.. So I don't think the difference is that big! A 125 hp lurker or a 100 hp zealot? A 25 hp archon or a 600 hp ultra?
Shield battery seems preferable to me.
-Transfusion is attention intensive, costly, and heals allot. All of these work well with high value units.
Like ultralisks.. The only two toss units with a lot of HP are the Carrier and the Colossus - but both are mechanical. It does not make sense for a spell that heals biological units to heal mechanical units as well.. Shield batteries solve this.
-Shields make it more likely that you will have a unit with damaged HP. T and Z damaged units usually die very soon after being damaged.
-Blink, force field, Immortal Shields, and Phase Shift also increase unit longevity. This increases the usefulness of healing.
-Mothership and Dark Pylon are obvious candidates. Both play a unit support role.
Fair points. However, the mothership (if not so much the dark pylon, as it's not going to be in combat thaaaaat often) would work much the same for shields (and could work on buildings, to augment its defensive role).
-Protoss lack any healing. This detracts from the enjoyment of playing Protoss dramatically. The argument that no healing makes Protoss unique and special is a weak one at best.
I don't think it detracts from the enjoyment of playing protoss at all.
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... I find this thread utterly pointless, and I find that protoss don't NEED healing. They didn't in SC:BW, you have Some Regen, and each protoss unit is quite strong, considering the Zealot is greater than 1 marine or 2 zerglings.
While this isn't the case in SC:2, imagine the poor and sad hopeless Terran, lost to the zealot + [healer] rush.
It would throw the game comepletely off-balance. You're just complaining about a race that already has fair power.
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On May 07 2009 09:42 JinHyunKim wrote:
... I find this thread utterly pointless, and I find that protoss don't NEED healing. They didn't in SC:BW, you have Some Regen, and each protoss unit is quite strong, considering the Zealot is greater than 1 marine or 2 zerglings.
While this isn't the case in SC:2, imagine the poor and sad hopeless Terran, lost to the zealot + [healer] rush.
It would throw the game comepletely off-balance. You're just complaining about a race that already has fair power.
I concur.
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This is getting really ridiculous... it's becoming really hard to follow up important news in the TL sc2 forum because of dumb suggestion threads like this.
There is one -single- consolidated suggestion thread that was created exactly to alleviate this issue. Please keep the stupidity there and keep TL clean:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=62214
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On May 07 2009 08:11 .risingdragoon wrote:
Damn, all your reasons are terrible and has nothing to do with nothing.
QFT LoooooooooooooL
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This is a joke right?
GTFO Protoss already effectively heal half their health through shields.
Not funny
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On May 07 2009 10:34 VIB wrote:This is getting really ridiculous... it's becoming really hard to follow up important news in the TL sc2 forum because of dumb suggestion threads like this. There is one -single- consolidated suggestion thread that was created exactly to alleviate this issue. Please keep the stupidity there and keep TL clean: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=62214
You know if it wasnt for theorycrafting on TL you guys would not have the new macro mechanics. I understand that you don't want the Protoss to have healing but you can express your opinions without the hate.
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I'm going to say this is trolling.
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I dont think it's a troll, but I don't like the idea. Protoss already have a few forms of healing on their own, and I'm not entirely sure if I like the idea of a massive targeted heal in the first place, regardless of the race.
Thinking of a bunch of overseers following around guardians/ultras/lurkers and spamming heal makes me think of wow/war3 >.<
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On May 07 2009 10:43 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2009 10:34 VIB wrote:This is getting really ridiculous... it's becoming really hard to follow up important news in the TL sc2 forum because of dumb suggestion threads like this. There is one -single- consolidated suggestion thread that was created exactly to alleviate this issue. Please keep the stupidity there and keep TL clean: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=62214 You know if it wasnt for theorycrafting on TL you guys would not have the new macro mechanics. I understand that you don't want the Protoss to have healing but you can express your opinions without the hate. You know if it weren't for people with IQs lower than monkeys there wouldn't be any wars, poverty and horrible forum trolls.
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I don't like the idea but we should all welcome the discourse... (provided it's not completely ludicrous)
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I believe it's only natural that players be punished for neglecting their units and allowing them to take excess damage. Every pot shot that an opponent gets on you outside of real engagement should actually matter. Otherwise hit-and-run, slow attrition, and artillery bombardment all become less punishing. As mentioned, Protoss can already recover an appreciable amount of shields, and at a high rate in SC2 to boot. If they are able to recover hit-points as well, their punishment for unit misuse broadly diminishes. It will exist in specific situations, but not as prevalently as it exists for Terran and Zerg.
SC2 is not being designed to forgive mistakes.
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On May 07 2009 11:16 gunsharp wrote:
I don't like the idea but we should all welcome the discourse... (provided it's not completely ludicrous)
But it's completely ludicrous.
His arguments aren't good. He makes the argument that a lot zerg units would "waste" the healing provided by the spell, when the majority of protoss units would do the same.
The lore does NOT back it up. And also, what makes more sense, a purely organic race with healing or a mostly mechanical race? Zerg also have a common, mobile unit on the battlefield that can cast the spell. The Overseer healing also makes sense. Protoss lack this, unless you want to put it on the mothership lol. (And don't say templar, honestly, storm > healing).
No healing makes the Protoss less fun to play? No, not really. It's your opinion to be sure, but it's definitely in the vast minority. Not to mention that protoss is already the most spell intensive race imo.
Queens, ultras, lurkers, swarm guardians are all worth saving. The argument Protoss units will more likely survive a battle to be healed afterwards is shaky at best, since whoever WINS the battle with have units left over, not always protoss. In addition, you'd want to be healing IN battle as well, especially with Ultras.
It seems obvious to me that Zerg should definitely be the race with this ability. Echone brings up a good point too.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 07 2009 10:34 VIB wrote:This is getting really ridiculous... it's becoming really hard to follow up important news in the TL sc2 forum because of dumb suggestion threads like this. There is one -single- consolidated suggestion thread that was created exactly to alleviate this issue. Please keep the stupidity there and keep TL clean: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=62214
Yeah, I don't agree with this thread at all, HOWEVER - it is ArcherofAiur making it - 99% of his threads in this forum are good, so I think he deserves some room to maneuver
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On May 07 2009 10:37 Ziph wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2009 08:11 .risingdragoon wrote:
Damn, all your reasons are terrible and has nothing to do with nothing. QFT LoooooooooooooL
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Not in favor of protoss healing
EDIT:
Also, VIB needs to shut his mouth. The stupid condescension of his posts in this thread is irksome and he is reviling one of the best SC2 discussion contributors on TL. Annoying.
Maybe a little temp ban is in order....?
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I can say that while i would love if toss were imba (maybe i could finally hit C+ on iccup rofl) it would just be unfair. Take an equal number of the basic mineral only units for each race (rines, zealots, zerglings) by cost (i.e. you have 5 zeals, 10 rines, 20 lings) and have them fight 1v1 through their matchups, you would find that zeals had the highest damage to cost ratio of either of the other units. The only downside of them is the high cost in investing in them. (also micro isn't really a factor because with okay micro 1 vulture can kill 100 zealots)
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On May 07 2009 11:44 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2009 10:34 VIB wrote:This is getting really ridiculous... it's becoming really hard to follow up important news in the TL sc2 forum because of dumb suggestion threads like this. There is one -single- consolidated suggestion thread that was created exactly to alleviate this issue. Please keep the stupidity there and keep TL clean: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=62214 Yeah, I don't agree with this thread at all, HOWEVER - it is ArcherofAiur making it - 99% of his threads in this forum are good, so I think he deserves some room to maneuver
Ill drop it for now. Its pretty obvious this wasnt a hit with the fans. Oh well.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Well, if you give some examples of how you see it working.. It's hard to get past a decade of Toss not being able to restore their HP
On May 07 2009 10:58 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2009 10:43 Archerofaiur wrote:On May 07 2009 10:34 VIB wrote:This is getting really ridiculous... it's becoming really hard to follow up important news in the TL sc2 forum because of dumb suggestion threads like this. There is one -single- consolidated suggestion thread that was created exactly to alleviate this issue. Please keep the stupidity there and keep TL clean: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=62214 You know if it wasnt for theorycrafting on TL you guys would not have the new macro mechanics. I understand that you don't want the Protoss to have healing but you can express your opinions without the hate. You know if it weren't for people with IQs lower than monkeys there wouldn't be any wars, poverty and horrible forum trolls.
VIB, surely you read this forum enough to know Archer is not a troll in any way -.- Don't instigate things plz.
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Well you know me. I could write pages on different healing spells that would compliment Protoss gameplay. But thats not the important thing.
The most important thing is how everyone else feels. If Blizzard came out tomro and said that they had moved Transfusion to the Mothership I would not have expected this many people to be mad. In fact I would have expected many to be jubulant. But apparently this is not so. Many people here are very attached to the idea of Protoss being Healless. In light of that I can respect the wishes of the community. Me and my fleet of 3 hp carriers will ride off into the distance...
(However, IF Blizzard ever does give Protoss healing I can assure you that I will make a very big "told you so" thread)
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On May 07 2009 09:32 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Like ultralisks.. The only two toss units with a lot of HP are the Carrier and the Colossus - but both are mechanical. It does not make sense for a spell that heals biological units to heal mechanical units as well.. Shield batteries solve this.
According to the most updated info source I know, the Carrier has 250 HP in SC2 and the Colossus has 200 HP. Under that definition of units 'with a lot of HP', you should also include the Immortal (200 HP) and the Mothership (400 HP).
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To be honest, I'm not terribly bothered by Protoss units and buildings not being able to heal their HP, because the flipside is that shields will recover rather quickly and without the need for a support unit to do it. I say it's an interesting tradeoff when compared to, say, Terran mech units that can quickly be repaired back to full health, but it requires minerals, gas, and worker time to do so (I believe SCVs will be able to have an autocast repair ability, so it won't require as much micromanagement in SC2 as it does in SC1). Zerg units can regenerate to full health by themselves, but it takes much longer than it takes the Terran or the Protoss (well, save for Roaches).
On May 07 2009 12:09 Archerofaiur wrote:
Me and my fleet of 3 hp carriers will ride off into the distance...
As a Protoss user I hate Plague as much as anyone >< Having the unit with the highest armor value in the game reduced to 3 HP without ever going through its armor and without the possibility to restore its HP... ticks me off. Imo, the problem here is Plague, not the Protoss race's inability to restore HP.
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I think a poll is in order.
Poll: Should protoss have access to a heal ability?
(Vote): Yes, it will be balanced like everything else
(Vote): No, shields are enough
(Vote): I don't care
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We should just give Protoss a shaman that has healing wave, too.
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What with argus link, shield batteries and healing Protoss armies are just going to be one invincible unit.
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On May 07 2009 15:04 Equaoh wrote:
What with argus link, shield batteries and healing Protoss armies are just going to be one invincible unit.
There's no shield batteries in SC2
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thread maker obviously plays protoss and isn't concerned with balance in sc2. he just wants to see toss get as buffed as possible.
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protoss is easy enough already
there needs to be certain difference between the races imo
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On May 07 2009 12:09 Archerofaiur wrote:Me and my fleet of 3 hp carriers will ride off into the distance...
Right... ride off into the distance.
Then come back and you'll have what, 250 hp back again?
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Healing would just create a big snowball effect after each battle won by the toss, because it's much more likely for the toss to survive with few losses and a lot of units on low hp compared to a zerg.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 07 2009 12:21 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2009 09:32 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Like ultralisks.. The only two toss units with a lot of HP are the Carrier and the Colossus - but both are mechanical. It does not make sense for a spell that heals biological units to heal mechanical units as well.. Shield batteries solve this. According to the most updated info source I know, the Carrier has 250 HP in SC2 and the Colossus has 200 HP. Under that definition of units 'with a lot of HP', you should also include the Immortal (200 HP) and the Mothership (400 HP).
Totally forgot about the mothership And didn't know the Immortal had that much hp, although it still doesn't change things *all* that much.
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Dude, Protoss is bitched about for enough things already. No need for Blizzard to add more -_-
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On May 07 2009 15:26 dirtnap wrote:
thread maker obviously plays protoss and isn't concerned with balance in sc2. he just wants to see toss get as buffed as possible.
This doesn't make much sense. SC2 has been developed from the very start with the intent of making it an e-sport; balance between the races in competitive play is pretty much an axiom for this game. Giving Protoss healing would *not* make them unbalanced in the long term, because you can make them worse at something else to compensate, or make Terran and Zerg stronger in some way to compensate.
First consider how Protoss would heal: You can make it make it expensive. Give the Nullifier a healing spell that is more inefficient than the Medics' heal, so you'd have to make a bunch of nullifiers if you want to heal all of your units back up after a big battle, for instance.
Archerofaiur says it would make it more fun to play Protoss if you could heal their units. I take him at his word and understand where he's coming from; I certainly wouldn't mind if Protoss had healing, and know people in RL who would be overjoyed if this happened, simply because seeing that HP bar almost depleted and knowing it can never go back up makes it kind of sad for the race lore-wise; you might've won the battle, but most of those who fought in it either died or received serious wounds from which they can never recover.
Man, but I'm surprised at how much hate is getting thrown around this idea 
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On May 07 2009 12:21 Zato-1 wrote:
According to the most updated info source I know, the Carrier has 250 HP in SC2 and the Colossus has 200 HP. Under that definition of units 'with a lot of HP', you should also include the Immortal (200 HP) and the Mothership (400 HP).
Which still leaves all high HP protoss units under the category of mechanical. Would be sort of pointless to give the race healing abilities to use on high templar, no?
As an alternative, you might want to try to get repair taken away from the Terrans. "It's not like marines use them."
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The whole shtick of Protoss is that they can't be healed and are a dying race. You can't change that.
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wth !!!
star2 units already have a freakin much hp
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it's called plasma shields
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On May 08 2009 00:40 Yenzilla wrote:
Which still leaves all high HP protoss units under the category of mechanical. Would be sort of pointless to give the race healing abilities to use on high templar, no?
As an alternative, you might want to try to get repair taken away from the Terrans. "It's not like marines use them."
Ok, let's say the High Templar gets Hallucination back, and you give the Nullifier the following ability:
Reconstruct (can be auto-cast)
Energy cost: 1 per 1 HP healed
Range: 2
Targets: Mechanical, biological
Compare it with the Medic's heal from SC1 now:
Medic costs 50min 25gas 1 supply, Nullifier costs 50min 100 gas 2 supply
Medic heals 2 HP per 1 energy, Nullifier heals 1 HP per 1 energy
Medic heals ground biological units, Nullifier heals biological, mechanical, ground and air units
In other words the Nullifier costs twice as much and is half as efficient, take however many resources the Terran spends in medics in SC1 and multiply that times four to see how much the Protoss needs to spend to keep all his units healed up. It's a huge expense, and probably isn't worth it to heal all your army with it; you'll save it for your more expensive and slow to produce units such as the Colossus and the Carrier.
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the OP wasn't that great, but seriously healing isnt that bad....?
i dont know why everyone is in an uproar over protoss having healing considering only a biological few would receive it (a la terran) unless you consider some other unit to repair mechanicals. and you can make lore fit anything holy shit. here, have some purple crystals that heal your wounds.
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Okay, if the healing were more of a 'reconstruct', I admit it would make a lot more sense for the protoss (lorewise, and gameplay). I had in my head the idea that heal necessitated biological unit use only.
Not entirely sold on the balance of it, though. While the rate of healing might be lower, I'd settle for a heal-all over the medic any day, simply because of the fact that it would heal all. I mean, while medics were balanced by an extreme lack of flexibility (no functional use in anything other than infantry armies, really), this ability would find practical applications in just about any build, in any match (with varying levels of use, of course, depending on price).
Of course, I don't get why one doesn't just stick to wanting shield battery (or equivalent function) back, aside from maybe nitpicking about how 14/100hp is a shitty number (I will admit, it is). It would certainly help maintain racial diversity, while having roughly the same effect on gameplay.
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Apart from the definite no from Blizzard to Protoss healing - what would be introduced as balancing factor? Protoss have the highest staying power (HP+Shield) because part of it is irrecoverable. Terrans got the best recovery method because their units are Glasscannons.
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On May 08 2009 03:10 Unentschieden wrote:
Apart from the definite no from Blizzard to Protoss healing - what would be introduced as balancing factor? Protoss have the highest staying power (HP+Shield) because part of it is irrecoverable. Terrans got the best recovery method because their units are Glasscannons.
reduced hp i guess, and frankly i would rather have high hp units and not being able to heal them.
especially because terran can already heal/repair their units.
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The Protoss HAVE Heal, its very just expensive and takes Micro+macromanagement
eg. to heal a Zealot, you need a Gateway, 100 minerals, an extra damage dealing unit, and it takes ~20-30 sec.
1. do suffiient damaage to your already damaged zealot to engage the emergency teleport home
2. use the Gateway+100 minerals to teleport him back to the battle field
The real problem is Plague.... and hopefully if Blizzard goes with this "Disease" it will not have the same problem.
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On May 07 2009 07:56 Archerofaiur wrote:
-Protoss lack any healing. This detracts from the enjoyment of playing Protoss dramatically. The argument that no healing makes Protoss unique and special is a weak one at best.
Don't play em, besides IMHO you are wrong.
And have you played beta to judge the game already? If you have, I take this question down, but I truly doubt that 
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whats the problem? play 2on2 and go zealot/medic, thats imba enough!
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On May 08 2009 04:49 RA wrote:Don't play em, besides IMHO you are wrong. And have you played beta to judge the game already? If you have, I take this question down, but I truly doubt that
Well that statement was my personal opinion. I cant justify it with emperical evidence. You know I feel bad. I really should have developed the OP better. Kinda did a weak job and for that I appologize. Maybe next time Ill make it a 57 page thesis :-P
Ok so allot of people dont like protoss to have healing but the overwhelming reason is that it would be imbalanced. To all of those people I have this question.
Hypothetically speaking, if Blizzard did put protoss healing in the game and the game was still balanced would you still have a problem with it?
Meaning is the threat of imbalance your only thing against P healing.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Personally I think healing has no influence on toss balance whatsoever, it's not like we are gonna take SC1 toss and give them medics (that can also heal carriers, somehow).
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On May 08 2009 05:48 Archerofaiur wrote:
Hypothetically speaking, if Blizzard did put protoss healing in the game and the game was still balanced would you still have a problem with it?
I'm kind of on the fence on this issue. Don't really have strong feelings either way. The only time I really feel screwed over because of Protoss lack of healing is when my units get hit by Plague. So yeah, I'd be happy with Protoss either way in SC2 if there is no Plague-equivalent; though I would much rather the Protoss had healing if there is a Plague-equivalent :p
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If Blizzard were to remove shields (or the regeneration of) altogether, it might make sense and have a chance of becoming reasonably balanced. Otherwise, with your current suggestion, Protoss get the equivalent of repair, medic heal (both covered by your 'heal', apparently) and regeneration (which shields currently do).
Of course, without shields, Protoss are Terrans (slight exaggeration), and without shield regeneration, shield is health.
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No one is suggesting removing shields.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Don't you think it's messing a bit with racial differentation?
In SC:
Zerg can regen all their HP, but no heal.
Toss can regen their shields, but no heal. Have shield batteries.
Terran can't regen anything, but can repair and heal.
SC2:
Zerg can heal their full HP. Have limited healing.
Terran same as in SC.
Toss can regen their shields very quickly.
I mean, if you add healing to toss, they are essentially like terrans except even better since they heal the shield portion on their own and at an extremely rapid pace.. I dunno, I don't see the need for it at all tbh.
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I really don't see why you would give healing to protoss, it's just not really useful, just see how little shield battery is used in BW
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On May 08 2009 08:11 MaD.pYrO wrote:
I really don't see why you would give healing to protoss, it's just not really useful, just see how little shield battery is used in BW
yes but they are stationairy, and healing the shields aren't as good as healing the HP.
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On May 08 2009 07:03 Archerofaiur wrote:
No one is suggesting removing shields.
No, not exactly. You are, however, suggesting that the importance of shields be downplayed significantly. If Protoss gained the ability to regenerate health, you're making the necessity of keeping shields up much, much smaller, considering as how a unit that loses either can now regain either.
Edit, targeted to above: Nitpicking aside, what is the difference between hp and shields? Does one get lost at a faster rate than another? Why is healing health necessarily better than shields? (Okay, I'll concede EMP and similar skills, but-- oh sh, Plague.)
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On May 08 2009 08:04 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Don't you think it's messing a bit with racial differentation?
In SC:
Zerg can regen all their HP, but no heal.
Toss can regen their shields, but no heal. Have shield batteries.
Terran can't regen anything, but can repair and heal.
SC2:
Zerg can heal their full HP. Have limited healing.
Terran same as in SC.
Toss can regen their shields very quickly.
I mean, if you add healing to toss, they are essentially like terrans except even better since they heal the shield portion on their own and at an extremely rapid pace.. I dunno, I don't see the need for it at all tbh.
See thats the point I was hoping to argue in this thread. Good Diversity vs. Bad Diversity. To quote Blizzard "Different is not better. Better is Better." You could give Terran and Zerg flyers and give Protoss only really good Anti Air. It would be racially different and unique. But would it be fun?
The health system was the most racially different in vanilla SC. Then they added Biological healing to Terran. I would argue that even though both Terran and Zerg could now heal biological units the benefits far outwiegh the racial differentiation.
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How is not giving Protoss the best of all worlds promoting bad diversity? Your example, obviously, is bad (hilariously game breaking, my mind went further with giving the Terrans/Zerg ONLY flyers), but I couldn't say the same about the topic at hand.
Every race has their own unique way of healing, but I wouldn't say any of them are distinctly better than the others. However, if one race were to be given every way of healing, I might have to argue otherwise.
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On May 08 2009 08:55 Yenzilla wrote:
How is not giving Protoss the best of all worlds promoting bad diversity? Your example, obviously, is bad (hilariously game breaking, my mind went further with giving the Terrans/Zerg ONLY flyers), but I couldn't say the same about the topic at hand.
Every race has their own unique way of healing, but I wouldn't say any of them are distinctly better than the others. However, if one race were to be given every way of healing, I might have to argue otherwise.
See maybe this is where we differ. Alot of you seem to consider shields healing. I dont consider shields healing at all. Healing heals hit points.
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Huge HP/Attack, and now healing? No thanks.
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I don't feel that Protoss needs healing. The strength of their individual units, not to mention their high HP values make it so they shouldn't require healing. I have to side with the fact that it will just make them overpowered. ZvP, for example, at least in the VERY late game, depends on slowly weakening the Protoss army. If it can regenerate to full health, then the Zerg's actions will be almost futile, and lose the game unless they can conjure up an army 2-3 times the size, to kill the P's army, deal with any reinforcements, then win the game.
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On May 08 2009 01:32 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2009 00:40 Yenzilla wrote:
Which still leaves all high HP protoss units under the category of mechanical. Would be sort of pointless to give the race healing abilities to use on high templar, no?
As an alternative, you might want to try to get repair taken away from the Terrans. "It's not like marines use them." Ok, let's say the High Templar gets Hallucination back, and you give the Nullifier the following ability: Reconstruct (can be auto-cast) Energy cost: 1 per 1 HP healed Range: 2 Targets: Mechanical, biological Compare it with the Medic's heal from SC1 now: Medic costs 50min 25gas 1 supply, Nullifier costs 50min 100 gas 2 supply Medic heals 2 HP per 1 energy, Nullifier heals 1 HP per 1 energy Medic heals ground biological units, Nullifier heals biological, mechanical, ground and air units In other words the Nullifier costs twice as much and is half as efficient, take however many resources the Terran spends in medics in SC1 and multiply that times four to see how much the Protoss needs to spend to keep all his units healed up. It's a huge expense, and probably isn't worth it to heal all your army with it; you'll save it for your more expensive and slow to produce units such as the Colossus and the Carrier.
On an Energy to Heals ratio, yes the medic is more efficient. But don't forget the advantages Reconstruct has. It's ranged, and does double the Heals per Second.
On May 08 2009 03:16 Krikkitone wrote:
The Protoss HAVE Heal, its very just expensive and takes Micro+macromanagement
eg. to heal a Zealot, you need a Gateway, 100 minerals, an extra damage dealing unit, and it takes ~20-30 sec.
1. do suffiient damaage to your already damaged zealot to engage the emergency teleport home
2. use the Gateway+100 minerals to teleport him back to the battle field
The real problem is Plague.... and hopefully if Blizzard goes with this "Disease" it will not have the same problem.
1. Did I miss an ability here? I've never heard of an emergency teleport
2. Gateways don't teleport existing units. The create them at their location. The way it is described may have confused you. It's like how all Protoss buildings are teleported to their location. They are pre-constructed then ported to the location your workers choose.
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Sweden33719 Posts
I think Krikkit is making a joke out of the fact that Zealots get "teleported back to aiur" when they die (lore wise).
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On May 08 2009 09:18 Clow wrote:
Huge HP/Attack, and now healing? No thanks.
Protoss basic units have more HP than basic units from other races. They are also more expensive, both in supply and in resource cost. I don't see the Zergs crying because their Zerglings have 35 HP, while the Marauder has 125 HP. Hint: Zerglings are not supposed to beat Marauders 1 on 1. Add up the HP of 4 zerglings, and you get 140 HP. How much HP does a Zealot have in SC2?
100 HP and 50 shields. gasp! It's just like 4 zerglings!
Stop it with the stupid 'omg Protoss are OP they have so much HP' comments, you just make yourself look bad. It's fine if you don't like Protoss, just don't base your arguments around the assumption that they're overpowered when they quite clearly aren't in SC1, at least in high level play.
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On May 08 2009 10:10 DeCoup wrote:
On an Energy to Heals ratio, yes the medic is more efficient. But don't forget the advantages Reconstruct has. It's ranged, and does double the Heals per Second.
Medic's Heal also has range 2 btw. Also, I've no idea where you got the idea that Reconstruct heals twice as much per second. I just made the ability up, and I didn't intend it to have that property :p
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On May 08 2009 10:10 DeCoup wrote:
1. Did I miss an ability here? I've never heard of an emergency teleport
2. Gateways don't teleport existing units. The create them at their location. The way it is described may have confused you. It's like how all Protoss buildings are teleported to their location. They are pre-constructed then ported to the location your workers choose.
In short:
To Heal Protoss units/buildings.. kill it and build another one.
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On May 08 2009 10:55 Zato-1 wrote:
Stop it with the stupid 'omg Protoss are OP they have so much HP' comments, you just make yourself look bad. It's fine if you don't like Protoss, just don't base your arguments around the assumption that they're overpowered when they quite clearly aren't in SC1, at least in high level play.
Thank you. I couldn't have said it better myself. People on here worry WAY to much about balance for a game that they have never even played. The game will be balanced. Period. And if the only thing you can find fault with for Protoss Healing is that it would make them overpowered well then maybe thats a sign this idea deserves more attention then your giving it.
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Simply because it might not be unbalanced isn't by itself reason to add change something.
Aside from Protoss having valuable units (with a plethora of longevity skills already, as you've mentioned-- 2 of 5 of those that you mentioned being related to shields), what rationale outside of 'would be fun' (which is very much a subjective matter, mind, and as such sort of a shitty reason) is there to give this to the Protoss?
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dudes, don't tell others what is imba and what is not. Obviously anyone hasn't played that much starcraft2 to find all the possible counters. sc2 will propably need years of patching to make it balanced but isn't it too early to whine yet?
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On May 08 2009 11:29 Yenzilla wrote:
what rationale outside of 'would be fun' (which is very much a subjective matter, mind, and as such sort of a shitty reason) is there to give this to the Protoss?
I disagree on this point. 'Fun' is actually a big deal when it comes to designing a game. However, it's also subjective, as you pointed out. What's fun for one person can be utterly frustrating for another. Would restoring HP to Protoss units be considered, on the whole, fun? One would think a thread like this would serve to gauge people's reactions to this concept, but everyone seems too stuck on the balance implications of the concept to think of whether it would make the game, on the whole, more fun.
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Archer, I don't understand why you don't consider shields to be health. The attacker must burn through them first, so it's certainly integrated with their health. And with fast regenerating shields "out of combat", it seems they already have a limited form of healing. I know this has already been mentioned...
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On May 08 2009 13:48 SoleSteeler wrote:
Archer, I don't understand why you don't consider shields to be health. The attacker must burn through them first, so it's certainly integrated with their health. And with fast regenerating shields "out of combat", it seems they already have a limited form of healing. I know this has already been mentioned...
In SC1 at least, HP is generally much more valuable than Shields. Zealots have 100 HP and 60 Shields, so by those numbers you'd expect the Zealots' Shields to be 60% as valuable as their HP. Assuming no upgrades, however, it takes a Zergling 12 hits to take down the shields vs. 25 hits to take down the HP- the Shields are only 48% as valuable as the HP in this case, due to Shields not counting armor. It takes a hydra 6 hits to take down a Zealot's shields, vs. 23 hits to take down its HP; in this case, the Shields are 26% as valuable as the HP, because of a combination of not counting armor and taking full damage from explosive attacks.
The sole exception to this, of course, is plague. Zealots and Carriers getting plagued is a big deal, while an Archon getting plagued makes the Protoss player chuckle.
Archerofaiur has a good point: Protoss is the only race that's incapable of restoring lost HP (if you count HP and Shields as two separate counters), and it's not a bad idea to stop and think- why is it that the other races can restore lost HP, but Protoss cannot? Just because it works like that in SC1 doesn't mean it should continue to work like that in SC2; the whole idea for the new game is to take good things from the previous one, add new stuff, and make it better. So far, I haven't seen a single convincing reason as to why Protoss shouldn't be able to restore lost HP, other than inertia; it worked in SC1, so don't change it for SC2. All I can say about inertia is- look how that worked for the Medic.
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On May 08 2009 14:17 Zato-1 wrote:Archerofaiur has a good point: Protoss is the only race that's incapable of restoring lost HP (if you count HP and Shields as two separate counters), and it's not a bad idea to stop and think- why is it that the other races can restore lost HP, but Protoss cannot?
This kind of rationale only truly makes sense if you consider HP and shields to be mutually exclusive, though. I would argue that, for the Protoss, their 'health' (in the sense applied to the Zerg and the Terran) is the combination of their shields and their actual health points, rather than just the raw hp number. After all, they're (for the most part) functionally equivalent.
In this particular case, I don't believe the logic that applies to the Terrans and the Zerg (in terms of health) should apply to the Protoss. The shield mechanic (that is unique to the race) makes comparing straight hp values between the races flawed, since it acts more or less as simply a renamed, second health bar.
Of course, this means that while the other races have access to full healing, Protoss are limited to regenerating only a percentage of their total health (albeit, a faster one, I believe, with the new changes to shield regen). However, I don't believe the race is at all put at a disadvantage as a result of this, simply because of the extra benefits attached the shields (such as not being as severely crippled by plague).
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On May 08 2009 14:17 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2009 13:48 SoleSteeler wrote:
Archer, I don't understand why you don't consider shields to be health. The attacker must burn through them first, so it's certainly integrated with their health. And with fast regenerating shields "out of combat", it seems they already have a limited form of healing. I know this has already been mentioned... In SC1 at least, HP is generally much more valuable than Shields. Zealots have 100 HP and 60 Shields, so by those numbers you'd expect the Zealots' Shields to be 60% as valuable as their HP. Assuming no upgrades, however, it takes a Zergling 12 hits to take down the shields vs. 25 hits to take down the HP- the Shields are only 48% as valuable as the HP in this case, due to Shields not counting armor. It takes a hydra 6 hits to take down a Zealot's shields, vs. 23 hits to take down its HP; in this case, the Shields are 26% as valuable as the HP, because of a combination of not counting armor and taking full damage from explosive attacks. The sole exception to this, of course, is plague. Zealots and Carriers getting plagued is a big deal, while an Archon getting plagued makes the Protoss player chuckle. Archerofaiur has a good point: Protoss is the only race that's incapable of restoring lost HP (if you count HP and Shields as two separate counters), and it's not a bad idea to stop and think- why is it that the other races can restore lost HP, but Protoss cannot? Just because it works like that in SC1 doesn't mean it should continue to work like that in SC2; the whole idea for the new game is to take good things from the previous one, add new stuff, and make it better. So far, I haven't seen a single convincing reason as to why Protoss shouldn't be able to restore lost HP, other than inertia; it worked in SC1, so don't change it for SC2. All I can say about inertia is- look how that worked for the Medic.
they can't heal because Protoss has somewhat easy acces to really powerful units, but you can beat them down cradually. you rarely see carriers go down after a single fight, they are damaged several times before dying. and softening up dragons and zealots with mines and plague before a battle can be pivotal.
Giving Protoss heal just like that changes how you play them and how you play against them, and not for the better imho.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Sorry, this idea just isn't worth fighting for...
+jetpack?
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EPT
