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On November 14 2008 07:51 ExSoldier wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2008 07:42 Licmyobelisk wrote:
someone here posted this and I think this is the perfect metaphor for apm
The user is the driver and the APM is the car. You have a very fast car but the driver is unexperienced so car will just kill the driver. Now if the driver is good and he has a "a-ok" car, that's enough for the driver to finish the first place. ya but if there is 2 good drivers and 1 has good car while other has "a-ok" car, its obvious that the one with the good car will win. In other words you cant be a pro with low apm because you will just be stumped by pros with high apm. So in the end low apm = a newb or is destined to be a newb lol
Oh sorry, I forgot "a-ok" car maybe about 200 to 230 apm. not by means "that's an ok car good for commuting, good for cruising from one place to the other".
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On November 14 2008 07:29 Djin)ftw( wrote:and here the EAPM for some blizzcon games
Oh my, Savior sure is efficient in comparison. And Xellos' redundancy 50+% made me lol.
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the only time apm matters is for foreign newbs who barely know the games. Anywhere near a competitive level, and you have the speed to actually do the actions- the important ability to be able to multitask and keep organized in a drawn out game. Have 200 apm, have 400 apm, only efficiency truly matters.
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It's incredibly ignorant to say that there's no connection between APM and skill.
You simply can't play this game on highest levels without 200+ apm.
And of course add this:
If race = terran, apm = apm + 100
If race = protoss, apm = apm - 50
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On November 13 2008 15:37 ExSoldier wrote:
i dont understand how these progamers with low apm can keep up with progamers with much faster apm especially terran users with low apm going against zergs with high apm. mind any1 explaining ^^.
APM is overrated. It's a stupid metric that tells little about the rate of meaningful actions, for starters. Then there are many factors at play in a player's performance, and how fast you can spam keystrokes and clicks is only one of them.
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But eapm is how good your spamming is!
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it's amazing that no one can explain what eapm is without analogies.
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noone says that many APM are all that matter. i guess its like a logharithmic function, the more APM you already have the less is the positive effect if you still get faster. things like timing, generel strategic decisions, build orders, multi tasking...... are then much more important. nothingtheless, as many have said: even bisu or stork wont beat any b- player if they are not allowed to make more than 50 clicks a minute :D
€: oh EAPM are APM reduced bei redundant clicks
f.e. if u click 11111111, you'll have 1 EAPM but 8 APM
same for 121212121212 -> 2 EAPM, uhm 12(?) APM
if you set movement clicks at the same (or a very close) spot its redundancy, same goes for rally points
thats basically it
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On November 13 2008 15:37 ExSoldier wrote:
i dont understand how these progamers with low apm can keep up with progamers with much faster apm especially terran users with low apm going against zergs with high apm. mind any1 explaining ^^.
also does any1 know flash and fantasy's apm? im just curious ^^
APM is so overrated.
Those players with more 150 are usually spamming. I am pretty sure the reason why people get over 150 at all, its because they keep checking their building unit progress periodically to not miss the macro cue.
There is nothing more to it. If you watch any pro gamer playing Live, and dont pay attention to the bottom window, the main window game play is usually at a humanly possible speed. They are efficient.
Testie and Oldy have like 120 APM.
Nal_rA used to have around that too.
There was a zerg too that used to be good and had around 80 APM... I forgot his name, something to do with water I guess... :p
If you dont spam the move keys or selection hotkeys you can still play perfectly well with very low apm.
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On November 14 2008 09:19 gg_hertzz wrote:
it's amazing that no one can explain what eapm is without analogies.
Ok, ok, onething I've notice on the bwinfo is that if you Queue your units on gateways/nexus/cc's/raxes mean's that is not EAPM. so meaning if you've then if you rally them too many times in single area (like multiple clicking on the same area) example (X: 90 and Y 0) you kept on clicking on that single area that's not effective as well.
That's some items I notice, if you genuises out there can explain it further that should help us all.
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I don't know how many people will agree with me on this or will understand but apm speed is like sonar. the quicker your apm, assuming that you know what you're doing because apm itself is not an indication of skill or experience, the more you see with regards to your units and buildings.
for example, the mainscreen is like a big jigsaw puzzle. Each hotkey represents a puzzle piece. Since you can only press 1 key at a time, you only see one piece of the puzzle at a time. Pretend that each time you click on a unit or a building you get to see that 'picture' in your mind, and that picture always lasts 1 second before it is erased from your mind.
So lets say you have an APM of 1 click per second. That's 60 apm. When you press 1, you see the puzzle piece 1, and when you press 2, puzzle piece 1 is completely erased from your mind and now you only see puzzle piece 2. You don't recally what puzzle piece 1 looks like because it's erased from your minds imagination. Therefore, you never ever see the entire jigsaw puzzle in your mind, only one piece at a time. You can loosely recall what certain pieces look like but you can never see the whole puzzle. Essentially, you never see the entire picture that the jigsaw represents and therefore you don't know what the picture of the jigsaw is.
Now, let's say you're much much faster. You're able to click 1/10th of a second for each hotkey or mouse click. That means that you can click 10 hotkeys per second. Remember that you are able to visualize what the hotkey represents for 1 second each before it is completely erased from your mind. If you can press 10 hotkeys per second, this means you're able to see 10 pieces of the jigsaw at a single time. It's a much more complete picture of the puzzle piece right?
A 'perfect' apm is when you're so fast that you can see the entire jigsaw puzzle. That's never the case, and there are limits to what the human mind can comprehend. That's why you rarely see anyone averaging 400 apm.
My main point is that apm represents visualization. The higher your apm, the more you can see what is happening in the game.
EDIT:I doubt anyone will read that to the end but I think it is a good explanation of what APM is.
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I'm pretty sure Upmagic plays at like 230, and doesn't zerg inherently give you the highest apm because everything about them is so click heavy as apposed to position, i.e. muta. harass, ling flanks, plus when you build thing you have to hit that s key or target larva individually
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mmm tahts a prety good explanation
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apm is nothing. Eapm shows speed and only speed, it doesnt really matter too much ;o
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apm isnt so important that its useless -.-
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Vatican City State491 Posts
I remember the great, old time, when apm did not matter at all. ChoJJa had the fastest hands, but it meant nothing (he had like 250apm). Then Blackman saw ChoJJa and he knew that he could get just as fast (he got to like 310apm). At a point of time, jca (?) created a thread about a program called superview that allowed to measure it.
And the shit hit the fucking fan:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=3701¤tpage=All
The measuring started.
And many people started to believe that APM = skill. There was that Love[30dom] 400 apm terran and the 600apm Hermimoto protoss, who both sucked.
Later "valid apm" or "effective apm" was invented - it was the APM without spam. It never became popular however. Just as simple THINKING about the things that are happening in the game, e.g. look at the following post:
On November 13 2008 23:21 CultureMisfits wrote:
zerg require the lowest apm, terran middle, and protoss require the most apm.
It's complete bullshit! APM depends on the things that the player is doing!
In my opinion, races/players that have to focus on their units more, need more apm:
e.g. a terran microing his marines and medics (or even simply watching them - a good player should constantly focus on them); or a zerg player controlling his mutalisks; or even a protoss player using a reaver+shuttle! APM goes crazily high then!
You dont need so much apm to macro!
Effective APM is about being able to micro and macro at the same time, not click fast e.g.
I usually manage to have under 500 minerals while playing protoss on fastest possible map. Id say 100 apm is enough to macro. I cant micro however - Im simply too slow to watch the units.
Sometimes, when I see the pros, they have the same problem - they spend so much time doing something. I think being able to control many things at the same time is what makes a person a pro - e.g. Macia could micro and macro terran for the first few minutes flawlessly with a lousy 90apm - and he could divide the actions between both micro and macro. More apm is needed when you have more units. People who say that random spamming makes a better player are wrong IMO - this time could be spent watching their units, or macroing perfectly (if not allready done). When nothing is happening, you dont need to click that much. IMO the school saying that "when you spam, you warm up" is completely wrong - because you simply spam; your apm doesnt rise when lotsa shit is happening. In a ZvZ game, my 100apm can rise to 200apm when something is happening - e.g. I constantly watch my mutas and macro; during battle I micro+macro.
High apm is much more needed in later game - when there are lots of things to control. It is much harder to control 4 bases and 3 armies when you have 100apm - you simply cant do everything.
The question is, whether the 250apm progamers can do it or not. Im not that sure, sometimes I watch the zerg's bases - and their larvae are not used. Then I think of Blackman - perfect macro, shitty micro.
Sometimes I watch at terran games - units die, when the terran spends too much time macroing.
Protoss dont need that much apm IMO - because simply they dont harass as much! I bet that Legionairre, had like 250apm in the game where he killed 60 units with a reaver - simply because he had to constantly micro it, while macroing.
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Russian Federation386 Posts
What isn't included in EAPM:
1) Select without subsequent order. (ex. when you press 2424242424242424 or something)
2) Too close destination points (ex. when you click a unit to move to one spot many times in a row)
3) Too fast repetition
4) Unit queue overflow
5) Selected group remains unchanged
6) Duplication
7) Unused hotkey assign.
Progamers have 170+ EAPM, by my estimates averaging at 190-230.
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On November 14 2008 07:13 Senx wrote:
Comparing APM is just pointless, there is no direct link between being a good player and having low/high apm and there never will be. EAPM(effective apm) however..
have you ever played pressure?
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On November 14 2008 09:28 Leath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2008 15:37 ExSoldier wrote:
i dont understand how these progamers with low apm can keep up with progamers with much faster apm especially terran users with low apm going against zergs with high apm. mind any1 explaining ^^.
also does any1 know flash and fantasy's apm? im just curious ^^ APM is so overrated. Those players with more 150 are usually spamming. I am pretty sure the reason why people get over 150 at all, its because they keep checking their building unit progress periodically to not miss the macro cue. There is nothing more to it. If you watch any pro gamer playing Live, and dont pay attention to the bottom window, the main window game play is usually at a humanly possible speed. They are efficient. Testie and Oldy have like 120 APM. Nal_rA used to have around that too. There was a zerg too that used to be good and had around 80 APM... I forgot his name, something to do with water I guess... :p If you dont spam the move keys or selection hotkeys you can still play perfectly well with very low apm.
Tsunami was the Zerg! I Played Zerg because of him!
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img217.imageshack.us/my.php?image=eapm2ql0.jpg)
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