EPTwho has the low apm?
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ExSoldier
378 Posts
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17726 Posts
Stork and Iris have pretty low apm too. | ||
cgrinker
United States3824 Posts
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randombum
United States2378 Posts
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PH
United States6173 Posts
savior is famous for his low APM play, though....I don't understand how he can do that...efficiency to the extreme. | ||
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Dark_Luster
Korea (South)438 Posts
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Raithed
China7078 Posts
On November 13 2008 15:30 Dark_Luster wrote: nal_ra had around 130. | ||
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
On November 13 2008 15:30 Dark_Luster wrote: nal_ra had around 130. lol no look at the blizzcon replays where he played and had like 260 | ||
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Tekin
2711 Posts
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Fontong
United States6454 Posts
On November 13 2008 15:36 freelander wrote: lol no look at the blizzcon replays where he played and had like 260 Please conform. | ||
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ExSoldier
378 Posts
also does any1 know flash and fantasy's apm? im just curious ^^ | ||
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
On November 13 2008 15:28 PH wrote: Boxer is in the 200 range i believe. Boxer's revamped his play since then and replays hence have been in the normal range for modern play. It's not Nada fast but it's respectable. | ||
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IzzyCraft
United States4487 Posts
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
On November 13 2008 15:37 ExSoldier wrote: i dont understand how these progamers with low apm can keep up with progamers with much faster apm especially terran users with low apm going against zergs with high apm. mind any1 explaining ^^. also does any1 know flash and fantasy's apm? im just curious ^^ They don't, hence why low apm players have been forced to revamp their playstyle to keep up. This topic has really been discussed ad naseum so please use the search funtion. | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17726 Posts
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36372 Posts
On November 13 2008 15:53 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Players with mid apm seem to be the ones that dominated though like Savior and Oov. i don't see the correlation, especially since players like nada, bisu, xellos, flash, jaedong, etc. are all way faster than the average pro savior and oov are exceptions | ||
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omfghi2u2
United States831 Posts
On November 13 2008 15:24 randombum wrote: Nobody cares about low apm. Its all about who can hold a hotkey the longest and get like 9001 apm. I lol'ed so hard. Anyway, I dont think having high APM matters that much. Clicking a spot 30 times doesnt make the unit move faster then clicking a spot 5 times. | ||
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only_human89
United States212 Posts
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17726 Posts
On November 13 2008 15:55 Hot_Bid wrote: i don't see the correlation, especially since players like nada, bisu, xellos, flash, jaedong, etc. are all way faster than the average pro savior and oov are exceptions Forgot to add that I wasnt really serious about what i wrote. I sometimes wondered before that if you played like at the speed of jaedong that it would hurt your decision making because you would be so busy doing everything but seeing jaedong's zvp series vs kal in the msl final proved me wrong. Actually iI first started wondering about that because of Oov and Savior. How they were much slower than the avg pros but were the most dominant. I thought maybe their slower speed allowed them to have better decision making. As the level of sc gets higher the less important mechanics become because everyone has similiarly good mechanics and its the game sense and decision making that separated everyone. Chobo theory crafting  | ||
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WhatisProtoss
Korea (South)2325 Posts
On November 13 2008 15:36 freelander wrote: lol no look at the blizzcon replays where he played and had like 260 Nal_rA used to be really slow in 2003ish. He was around 130-170 apm. But he sped up considerably later on, sometimes above 250 average. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
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Ver
United States2186 Posts
Boxer is in no way at 200 consistently, *maybe* in 1999 he was but anytime into his dominating phase and beyond he was much higher. 300 would be more like his average. In the replay pack of him vs Lx he's 290-310 generally, with a few rare ones dipping to mid 250s. And his TvZ will be a lot higher; not sure about TvP. Savior is slower slightly and rarely goes above 260, while dropping more frequently to 200-210. Average would be 220-260 I'd say, although granted I did not look at ZvZ where it might be higher. This includes games from 1.14 rA is around 240-60 average, although the sample size of 8-9 games is smaller than the others and he does drop to 220 in a few. Zerg sure does require mass apm. July is 300-350 easily, and sometimes goes above in his micro crazy games. Jaedong is a consistent 350-400 in the admittedly few replays I have of him, but it sure shows in his mechanics, which are by far the best Zerg has ever seen. It may not match up to Nada's consistent 400-450 apm, at least in TvZ, (it 'only' drops to 350-400 in TvT, still wtf?) but it's still crazy fast. oov is by far the lowest terran and it showed in his awful mechanics lol. Well he got better in 05-06 or so, so I can't make fun of him too much for it, but his mechanics in his bonjwa phase were so terrible. I can't say for sure that Savior is the lowest successful Zerg (Gorush might compare), but he was very efficient and well organized, so his mechanics were still rather decent. There is no relationship between bonjwas/low apm (since Boxer/Nada are both above 300), but oov/savior are both slow and strategical players. You can certainly make an argument for bonjwas being strategical players, since 3/4 fit that bill successfully! | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17726 Posts
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onihunter
United States515 Posts
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KrAzYfoOL
Australia3037 Posts
On November 13 2008 15:11 Superiorwolf wrote: savior is pretty low but zerg doesn't nearly require as much 400 apm that terrans do. savior is like 200-250 afaik. Savior is about 230+ in every single replay i have of him. On November 13 2008 15:28 PH wrote: Boxer is in the 200 range i believe. Stork plays in the 250-300ish range, even Best is only slightly faster than Stork. savior is famous for his low APM play, though....I don't understand how he can do that...efficiency to the extreme. Boxer has always had high apm, when bwchart was released boxer averaged around 250apm. | ||
GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
On November 13 2008 16:14 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Forgot to add that I wasnt really serious about what i wrote. I sometimes wondered before that if you played like at the speed of jaedong that it would hurt your decision making because you would be so busy doing everything but seeing jaedong's zvp series vs kal in the msl final proved me wrong. Actually iI first started wondering about that because of Oov and Savior. How they were much slower than the avg pros but were the most dominant. I thought maybe their slower speed allowed them to have better decision making. As the level of sc gets higher the less important mechanics become because everyone has similiarly good mechanics and its the game sense and decision making that separated everyone. Chobo theory crafting I think that a lot of people would say that you have the same amount of time to make decisions, no matter how fast your hands are moving. Also, at their skill level, the decision making feels like it just comes from many many games, and not so much on the fly theorying- the decisions are already "there". At the level I play (sucking) the faster the hands are, the slower my decision making is. If I played more games that probably wouldn't be the case though. | ||
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TheFlashyOne
Canada450 Posts
On November 13 2008 15:11 Superiorwolf wrote: savior is pretty low but zerg doesn't nearly require as much 400 apm that terrans do. savior is like 200-250 afaik. To be played optimally, zerg requires more apm than terran | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17726 Posts
On November 13 2008 17:03 waterGHOSTCLAWdragon wrote: I think that a lot of people would say that you have the same amount of time to make decisions, no matter how fast your hands are moving. Also, at their skill level, the decision making feels like it just comes from many many games, and not so much on the fly theorying- the decisions are already "there". At the level I play (sucking) the faster the hands are, the slower my decision making is. If I played more games that probably wouldn't be the case though. Yeah i feel that way too I realized I was looking at it from my perspective(chobo T_T) where when i try to play faster it affects my decision making. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On November 13 2008 17:07 TheFlashyOne wrote: To be played optimally, zerg requires more apm than terran To move 3 groups of mnm you have to 1(rightclick)2(rightclick)3(rightclick) then 1t2t3a Thats 12 actions, just to move stimmed rines/medic 1 time........ | ||
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azndsh
United States4447 Posts
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17726 Posts
For example on blue storm you can put a lot of hatches around the min only and f2 it and the rest you can use hotkeys. f2 control+larvae sz 4sz5sz6szs7sz8sz? | ||
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GodsDevil[5thF]
Romania622 Posts
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eX-Corgh
Russian Federation386 Posts
Stork, Sea. Yea, thats it. I don't know ForGG's APM, but from his TvZ FPVOD I've seen he's about 300. Xellos is pretty slow too, actually. Despite his 350 APM his EAPM is really low, like 150 (from recent reps vs Nada). He just spams too much. Flash has 300 APM with 230+ EAPM, Mind has 280+ APM with 230+ EAPM, Bisu has 290+ APM with 220+ EAPM, JaeDong has 350+ APM with 230+ EAPM - those guys are very fast O_O. Well, about Savior... he used to have 220-260 APM with 180+ EAPM, but his blizzcon games show incredible speed up to 280+ APM with 200+ EAPM, so I guess he can't be considered slow anymore. | ||
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GinNtoniC
Sweden2945 Posts
On November 13 2008 16:12 only_human89 wrote: I have 250-300 apm and I still suck. My mechanics are very poor unfortunately TT. then maybe you should slow down a little  | ||
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Railz
United States1449 Posts
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Ganfei
Taiwan1439 Posts
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KrAzYfoOL
Australia3037 Posts
On November 13 2008 18:16 eX-Corgh wrote: The slowest well-known pro gamers of today that I could remember: Stork, Sea. Yea, thats it. I don't know ForGG's APM, but from his TvZ FPVOD I've seen he's about 300. Sea got 300~ apm in his blizzcon games. | ||
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skindzer
Chile5114 Posts
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clazziquai
6685 Posts
On November 13 2008 16:17 G.s)NarutO wrote: At least I'm faster than lots of pros ._.! Not better though. Why APM does not matter =] <3 | ||
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eX-Corgh
Russian Federation386 Posts
On November 13 2008 19:06 KrAzYfoOL wrote: Sea got 300~ apm in his blizzcon games. Hmm maybe you're right - I didn't check the reps in BWchart. I just based of his proleague games from recent seasons (he looked very slow in the FPVOD parts). Maybe he sped up like savior did... | ||
GTR
51382 Posts
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KrAzYfoOL
Australia3037 Posts
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SkelA
Macedonia13017 Posts
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axel
France385 Posts
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kemoryan
Spain1506 Posts
On November 13 2008 22:25 SkelA wrote: Stork has the lowest apm by far 230-250 apm, Savior is around 250-280 apm too and that just proves you dont need a 400 apm to be good at starcraft because brain apm and decision making is more important than you hand apm ( which is mostly spam)... exactly | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
Oov has pretty low apm sometimes like ~220-230 i think he averages about 250-280 tho | ||
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
On November 13 2008 18:16 eX-Corgh wrote: The slowest well-known pro gamers of today that I could remember: Stork, Sea. Yea, thats it. I don't know ForGG's APM, but from his TvZ FPVOD I've seen he's about 300. Xellos is pretty slow too, actually. Despite his 350 APM his EAPM is really low, like 150 (from recent reps vs Nada). He just spams too much. Flash has 300 APM with 230+ EAPM, Mind has 280+ APM with 230+ EAPM, Bisu has 290+ APM with 220+ EAPM, JaeDong has 350+ APM with 230+ EAPM - those guys are very fast O_O. Well, about Savior... he used to have 220-260 APM with 180+ EAPM, but his blizzcon games show incredible speed up to 280+ APM with 200+ EAPM, so I guess he can't be considered slow anymore. I dont know what the hell happened to xellos, he just to be really fast and was able to maintain 400 apm just like nada, nowadays he's way slower tho. Oh i forgot SEri[ScM] of SKT1, he's ~200 apm terran, probably one of, if not the lowest apm pro today | ||
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Pads
England3228 Posts
Guess! | ||
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SolaR-
United States2685 Posts
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On November 13 2008 15:14 Ilikestarcraft wrote: I think seeing from wwi and blizzcon reps he got abit faster. Stork and Iris have pretty low apm too. yeah, i heard one of the games of the OSL finals Stork had like 180 APM or so | ||
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simcar
Korea (South)118 Posts
APM is nothing---> Savior and OOv | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
On November 13 2008 15:24 cgrinker wrote: I have pretty low apm wtf me too! small world | ||
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Drazzzt
Germany999 Posts
And I bet you can even get A level ICCUP with <150 APM. | ||
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NahLGaE
Korea (South)523 Posts
usually it goes from highest to lowest for races terran > zerg > protoss altho it varies depending on the matchup like tvz, ran will have higher apm with all the mm micro etc than tvp with just laying mines and seige. and i dunno about now but it was true in the earlier days, nal_ra's apm was like 150-170 (and a lot of the earlier protoss players were around 170-200 also and ppl thought it was okay for protoss to have lower apm's). i wouldnt be surprised at all if it went up over the years tho and its pretty common for most protosses to have 300+ like everyone else now ;o | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
On November 13 2008 23:35 Drazzzt wrote: btw fisheye got 2nd WCG with APM 130-150. And I bet you can even get A level ICCUP with <150 APM. but then again fisheye played before jesus was born so yeah... | ||
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
On November 13 2008 23:35 Drazzzt wrote: btw fisheye got 2nd WCG with APM 130-150. And I bet you can even get A level ICCUP with <150 APM. That was such a long time ago, nowadays you wont get 2nd at wcg with 130 apm | ||
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ahole-surprise
United States813 Posts
On November 13 2008 15:11 Superiorwolf wrote: savior is pretty low but zerg doesn't nearly require as much 400 apm that terrans do. savior is like 200-250 afaik. I don't know, why is it that the only two players who can play ZvP nowadays have around 400 APM (Jaedong and July)? | ||
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
On November 13 2008 16:34 Ver wrote: oov is by far the lowest terran and it showed in his awful mechanics lol. Well he got better in 05-06 or so, so I can't make fun of him too much for it, but his mechanics in his bonjwa phase were so terrible. I can't say for sure that Savior is the lowest successful Zerg (Gorush might compare), but he was very efficient and well organized, so his mechanics were still rather decent. There is no relationship between bonjwas/low apm (since Boxer/Nada are both above 300), but oov/savior are both slow and strategical players. You can certainly make an argument for bonjwas being strategical players, since 3/4 fit that bill successfully! The true bonjawas (Nada, iloveOov, Savior) should all be considered strategical players because they changed the way starcraft is played far beyond just mechanics. It is hard to judge the "quality" of each action, especially across different races. | ||
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Mazer
Canada1086 Posts
I average in the 120's. No extra actions than necessary but usually not enough necessary actions. But the real reason I suck is because of the range of APM I play with. If I could consistently stay at 120, I'd be able to make C+ I think. I have the tendency to gap out and drop to like 80-90 for up to a minute or two at a time when I forget to macro, and so I struggle to hit C-. Played this game so long with my mediocore friends, it was always enough and now I'm so used to doing this. | ||
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born-to-porn
Denmark400 Posts
On November 13 2008 23:19 Pads wrote: B+ 100APM Guess! prOxi.Thanatos! Endi That British guy who always loses to Midian TT1 | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17726 Posts
On November 13 2008 23:19 Pads wrote: B+ 100APM Guess! You? or kwark maybe? | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
I love how this is a protoss agreeing with a protoss | ||
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
Kwark is my guess However try getting B+ with Terran or Zerg with 100 apm | ||
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merz
Sweden2760 Posts
BoxeR has always been notorious for his shitty macro and incredible micro, had he been faster he'd been able to do both  | ||
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Pads
England3228 Posts
On November 14 2008 01:16 born-to-porn wrote: prOxi.Thanatos! That British guy who always loses to Midian TT1 ;D | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On November 14 2008 00:30 ahole-surprise wrote: I don't know, why is it that the only two players who can play ZvP nowadays have around 400 APM (Jaedong and July)? Well savior's ZvP was better than theirs in his prime in my opinion. Coincidence I guess? | ||
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rekluce
United States51 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On November 14 2008 02:15 Pulimuli wrote: Kwark is my guess However try getting B+ with Terran or Zerg with 100 apm Isn't Ahzz like A- and his Zerg is like 150 apm? | ||
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abandonallhope
Sweden563 Posts
On November 13 2008 15:58 omfghi2u2 wrote: I lol'ed so hard. Anyway, I dont think having high APM matters that much. Clicking a spot 30 times doesnt make the unit move faster then clicking a spot 5 times. No wonder you are not pro. | ||
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ArC_man
United States2798 Posts
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Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
On November 14 2008 03:10 ArC_man wrote: No one's mentioned TheRock yet? The guy plays slower than my grandma the last time I saw him on 1st person view. Well I guess there is a lower limit to what APMs can be gosu then. | ||
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EsX_Raptor
United States2801 Posts
Z follows next; they need to press some abilities to be successful yet not as many as T. P 1a2a3a4a5a click t click, click t click, click t click... enter gg noob enter = ~ 100 apm A+ | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
On November 14 2008 02:28 Shikyo wrote: Isn't Ahzz like A- and his Zerg is like 150 apm? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNmI1Cybv6o "Most of his gateways are powered by pylons." Clearly this guy is A- | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On November 14 2008 04:42 Chef wrote: "Most of his gateways are powered by pylons." Clearly this guy is A- English isn't his first language, he probably meant that they were powered by those 2 pylons. But yes, he's A- >_> | ||
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Dark_Luster
Korea (South)438 Posts
nal_ra has over 250 in the first 5 minutes. who doesnt? but starting late game and midgame he goes down to 130-150. and goes even more up in different situations | ||
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ThE_OsToJiY
Canada1167 Posts
On November 14 2008 05:55 Dark_Luster wrote: for all the doubters. nal_ra has over 250 in the first 5 minutes. who doesnt? but starting late game and midgame he goes down to 130-150. and goes even more up in different situations I don't think kang min has 130apm, just watch any of his fpvods.. Also if you know the samsung Khan progamer Dream.T)M18M he has like 180~230 apm. I have replays of him where thats true, and thats what he told me >_< | ||
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qaswedfr25
United States212 Posts
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Yaqoob
Canada3319 Posts
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cgrinker
United States3824 Posts
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gg_hertzz
2152 Posts
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We Are Here
Australia1810 Posts
On November 14 2008 02:23 Shikyo wrote: it wasnt better, in his prime pvz wasnt revolutionized yetWell savior's ZvP was better than theirs in his prime in my opinion. Coincidence I guess? On November 14 2008 06:42 gg_hertzz wrote: Eapm is effective apm and doesnt count the actions that do nothing (i think) and you get use the program here to see ur eapm: http://bwrepinfo.narod.ru/download.htmlwhat's eapm and how do u calculate it? | ||
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
On November 14 2008 05:55 Dark_Luster wrote: for all the doubters. nal_ra has over 250 in the first 5 minutes. who doesnt? but starting late game and midgame he goes down to 130-150. and goes even more up in different situations You have absolutely no idea what the hell you are talking about... his average apm is about 250 average lenght games, not 130, lol. Open any nal_ra rep in bwchart thats played more recently then 2001 and you'll see | ||
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gg_hertzz
2152 Posts
On November 14 2008 06:44 We Are Here wrote: it wasnt better, in his prime pvz wasnt revolutionized yet Eapm is effective apm and doesnt count the actions that do nothing (i think) and you get use the program here to see ur eapm: http://bwrepinfo.narod.ru/download.html cool. so what's a good eapm average? | ||
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kemoryan
Spain1506 Posts
Its true that protoss need less apm. But that's just how it is, it doesn't mean noobs can be better at it. I usually play protoss but sometimes I like playing Terran and my apm increases because there's more things I have to do. To put it some way, if you're not a spammer, it's easier to have higher apm playing terran than protoss at the same level, and that doesn't mean anything, | ||
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afg-warrior
Afghanistan328 Posts
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afg-warrior
Afghanistan328 Posts
On November 14 2008 06:53 kemoryan wrote: I'm sick of the 1a2a3a joke. Its true that protoss need less apm. But that's just how it is, it doesn't mean noobs can be better at it. I usually play protoss but sometimes I like playing Terran and my apm increases because there's more things I have to do. To put it some way, if you're not a spammer, it's easier to have higher apm playing terran than protoss at the same level, and that doesn't mean anything, STFU toss noob or i'll 1a2a3a4a you to death J/K | ||
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Djin)ftw(
Germany3357 Posts
On November 14 2008 06:52 gg_hertzz wrote: cool. so what's a good eapm average? 200+ u wont see any pro below ~180, even the european top gamers are (nearly) that fast €: bot left should be iris/stork, top right flash/savior ![[image loading]](http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=eapmgu7.jpg) | ||
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Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
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We Are Here
Australia1810 Posts
On November 14 2008 07:10 Djin)ftw( wrote: you kidding me?160+ even by pro standards is pretty good200+ u wont see any pro below ~180, even the european top gamers are nearly that fast | ||
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Polar_Nada
United States1548 Posts
On November 14 2008 07:14 We Are Here wrote: you kidding me?160+ even by pro standards is pretty good uhhh...are YOU kidding? i cant even hit D+ on iccup with 150 apm >.> | ||
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Djin)ftw(
Germany3357 Posts
but as always, many (E)APM are good, but u wont win by just clicking a lot :D | ||
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Djin)ftw(
Germany3357 Posts
![[image loading]](http://img217.imageshack.us/my.php?image=eapm2ql0.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://img217.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif) thats why i'm sure idra is going to make it, he is really fast. he just needs more practise | ||
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fig_newbie
749 Posts
On November 14 2008 06:46 Pulimuli wrote: You have absolutely no idea what the hell you are talking about... his average apm is about 250 average lenght games, not 130, lol. Open any nal_ra rep in bwchart thats played more recently then 2001 and you'll see completely missed the point of Dark_luster's post lol? | ||
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Licmyobelisk
Philippines3682 Posts
The user is the driver and the APM is the car. You have a very fast car but the driver is unexperienced so car will just kill the driver. Now if the driver is good and he has a "a-ok" car, that's enough for the driver to finish the first place. | ||
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gg_hertzz
2152 Posts
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Camlito
Australia4040 Posts
On November 14 2008 07:48 gg_hertzz wrote: so what the heck is eapm? it doesn't seem as straight forward as apm. apm is just the physical 'clicks' of your fingers. so what the heck is eapm and how is it calculated? Usefull clicks that aren't spam i think, and i don't know how to calculate it. | ||
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ExSoldier
378 Posts
On November 14 2008 07:42 Licmyobelisk wrote: someone here posted this and I think this is the perfect metaphor for apm The user is the driver and the APM is the car. You have a very fast car but the driver is unexperienced so car will just kill the driver. Now if the driver is good and he has a "a-ok" car, that's enough for the driver to finish the first place. ya but if there is 2 good drivers and 1 has good car while other has "a-ok" car, its obvious that the one with the good car will win. In other words you cant be a pro with low apm because you will just be stumped by pros with high apm. So in the end low apm = a newb or is destined to be a newb lol | ||
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Licmyobelisk
Philippines3682 Posts
On November 14 2008 07:51 ExSoldier wrote: ya but if there is 2 good drivers and 1 has good car while other has "a-ok" car, its obvious that the one with the good car will win. In other words you cant be a pro with low apm because you will just be stumped by pros with high apm. So in the end low apm = a newb or is destined to be a newb lol Oh sorry, I forgot "a-ok" car maybe about 200 to 230 apm. not by means "that's an ok car good for commuting, good for cruising from one place to the other". | ||
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antiq
Slovakia191 Posts
On November 14 2008 07:29 Djin)ftw( wrote: and here the EAPM for some blizzcon games Oh my, Savior sure is efficient in comparison. And Xellos' redundancy 50+% made me lol. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
You simply can't play this game on highest levels without 200+ apm. And of course add this: If race = terran, apm = apm + 100 If race = protoss, apm = apm - 50 | ||
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onepost
Canada297 Posts
On November 13 2008 15:37 ExSoldier wrote: i dont understand how these progamers with low apm can keep up with progamers with much faster apm especially terran users with low apm going against zergs with high apm. mind any1 explaining ^^. APM is overrated. It's a stupid metric that tells little about the rate of meaningful actions, for starters. Then there are many factors at play in a player's performance, and how fast you can spam keystrokes and clicks is only one of them. | ||
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Licmyobelisk
Philippines3682 Posts
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gg_hertzz
2152 Posts
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Djin)ftw(
Germany3357 Posts
€: oh EAPM are APM reduced bei redundant clicks f.e. if u click 11111111, you'll have 1 EAPM but 8 APM same for 121212121212 -> 2 EAPM, uhm 12(?) APM if you set movement clicks at the same (or a very close) spot its redundancy, same goes for rally points thats basically it | ||
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Leath
Canada1724 Posts
On November 13 2008 15:37 ExSoldier wrote: i dont understand how these progamers with low apm can keep up with progamers with much faster apm especially terran users with low apm going against zergs with high apm. mind any1 explaining ^^. also does any1 know flash and fantasy's apm? im just curious ^^ APM is so overrated. Those players with more 150 are usually spamming. I am pretty sure the reason why people get over 150 at all, its because they keep checking their building unit progress periodically to not miss the macro cue. There is nothing more to it. If you watch any pro gamer playing Live, and dont pay attention to the bottom window, the main window game play is usually at a humanly possible speed. They are efficient. Testie and Oldy have like 120 APM. Nal_rA used to have around that too. There was a zerg too that used to be good and had around 80 APM... I forgot his name, something to do with water I guess... :p If you dont spam the move keys or selection hotkeys you can still play perfectly well with very low apm. | ||
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Licmyobelisk
Philippines3682 Posts
On November 14 2008 09:19 gg_hertzz wrote: it's amazing that no one can explain what eapm is without analogies. Ok, ok, onething I've notice on the bwinfo is that if you Queue your units on gateways/nexus/cc's/raxes mean's that is not EAPM. so meaning if you've then if you rally them too many times in single area (like multiple clicking on the same area) example (X: 90 and Y  0) you kept on clicking on that single area that's not effective as well.That's some items I notice, if you genuises out there can explain it further that should help us all. | ||
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gg_hertzz
2152 Posts
for example, the mainscreen is like a big jigsaw puzzle. Each hotkey represents a puzzle piece. Since you can only press 1 key at a time, you only see one piece of the puzzle at a time. Pretend that each time you click on a unit or a building you get to see that 'picture' in your mind, and that picture always lasts 1 second before it is erased from your mind. So lets say you have an APM of 1 click per second. That's 60 apm. When you press 1, you see the puzzle piece 1, and when you press 2, puzzle piece 1 is completely erased from your mind and now you only see puzzle piece 2. You don't recally what puzzle piece 1 looks like because it's erased from your minds imagination. Therefore, you never ever see the entire jigsaw puzzle in your mind, only one piece at a time. You can loosely recall what certain pieces look like but you can never see the whole puzzle. Essentially, you never see the entire picture that the jigsaw represents and therefore you don't know what the picture of the jigsaw is. Now, let's say you're much much faster. You're able to click 1/10th of a second for each hotkey or mouse click. That means that you can click 10 hotkeys per second. Remember that you are able to visualize what the hotkey represents for 1 second each before it is completely erased from your mind. If you can press 10 hotkeys per second, this means you're able to see 10 pieces of the jigsaw at a single time. It's a much more complete picture of the puzzle piece right? A 'perfect' apm is when you're so fast that you can see the entire jigsaw puzzle. That's never the case, and there are limits to what the human mind can comprehend. That's why you rarely see anyone averaging 400 apm. My main point is that apm represents visualization. The higher your apm, the more you can see what is happening in the game. EDIT:I doubt anyone will read that to the end but I think it is a good explanation of what APM is. | ||
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n.DieJokes
United States3443 Posts
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Racenilatr
United States2756 Posts
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
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Racenilatr
United States2756 Posts
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closed
Vatican City State491 Posts
And the shit hit the fucking fan: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=3701¤tpage=All The measuring started. And many people started to believe that APM = skill. There was that Love[30dom] 400 apm terran and the 600apm Hermimoto protoss, who both sucked. Later "valid apm" or "effective apm" was invented - it was the APM without spam. It never became popular however. Just as simple THINKING about the things that are happening in the game, e.g. look at the following post: On November 13 2008 23:21 CultureMisfits wrote: zerg require the lowest apm, terran middle, and protoss require the most apm. It's complete bullshit! APM depends on the things that the player is doing! In my opinion, races/players that have to focus on their units more, need more apm: e.g. a terran microing his marines and medics (or even simply watching them - a good player should constantly focus on them); or a zerg player controlling his mutalisks; or even a protoss player using a reaver+shuttle! APM goes crazily high then! You dont need so much apm to macro! Effective APM is about being able to micro and macro at the same time, not click fast e.g. I usually manage to have under 500 minerals while playing protoss on fastest possible map. Id say 100 apm is enough to macro. I cant micro however - Im simply too slow to watch the units. Sometimes, when I see the pros, they have the same problem - they spend so much time doing something. I think being able to control many things at the same time is what makes a person a pro - e.g. Macia could micro and macro terran for the first few minutes flawlessly with a lousy 90apm - and he could divide the actions between both micro and macro. More apm is needed when you have more units. People who say that random spamming makes a better player are wrong IMO - this time could be spent watching their units, or macroing perfectly (if not allready done). When nothing is happening, you dont need to click that much. IMO the school saying that "when you spam, you warm up" is completely wrong - because you simply spam; your apm doesnt rise when lotsa shit is happening. In a ZvZ game, my 100apm can rise to 200apm when something is happening - e.g. I constantly watch my mutas and macro; during battle I micro+macro. High apm is much more needed in later game - when there are lots of things to control. It is much harder to control 4 bases and 3 armies when you have 100apm - you simply cant do everything. The question is, whether the 250apm progamers can do it or not. Im not that sure, sometimes I watch the zerg's bases - and their larvae are not used. Then I think of Blackman - perfect macro, shitty micro. Sometimes I watch at terran games - units die, when the terran spends too much time macroing. Protoss dont need that much apm IMO - because simply they dont harass as much! I bet that Legionairre, had like 250apm in the game where he killed 60 units with a reaver - simply because he had to constantly micro it, while macroing. | ||
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eX-Corgh
Russian Federation386 Posts
1) Select without subsequent order. (ex. when you press 2424242424242424 or something) 2) Too close destination points (ex. when you click a unit to move to one spot many times in a row) 3) Too fast repetition 4) Unit queue overflow 5) Selected group remains unchanged 6) Duplication 7) Unused hotkey assign. Progamers have 170+ EAPM, by my estimates averaging at 190-230. | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17726 Posts
On November 14 2008 07:13 Senx wrote: Comparing APM is just pointless, there is no direct link between being a good player and having low/high apm and there never will be. EAPM(effective apm) however.. have you ever played pressure? | ||
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
On November 14 2008 09:28 Leath wrote: APM is so overrated. Those players with more 150 are usually spamming. I am pretty sure the reason why people get over 150 at all, its because they keep checking their building unit progress periodically to not miss the macro cue. There is nothing more to it. If you watch any pro gamer playing Live, and dont pay attention to the bottom window, the main window game play is usually at a humanly possible speed. They are efficient. Testie and Oldy have like 120 APM. Nal_rA used to have around that too. There was a zerg too that used to be good and had around 80 APM... I forgot his name, something to do with water I guess... :p If you dont spam the move keys or selection hotkeys you can still play perfectly well with very low apm. Tsunami was the Zerg! I Played Zerg because of him! | ||
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fearus
China2164 Posts
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
in very general terms, really intelligent players will be slower. the dumb-as-a-brick macro bots will be the ones who are like 400 apm. | ||
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KrAzYfoOL
Australia3037 Posts
On November 14 2008 09:28 Leath wrote: APM is so overrated. Those players with more 150 are usually spamming. I am pretty sure the reason why people get over 150 at all, its because they keep checking their building unit progress periodically to not miss the macro cue. There is nothing more to it. If you watch any pro gamer playing Live, and dont pay attention to the bottom window, the main window game play is usually at a humanly possible speed. They are efficient. Testie and Oldy have like 120 APM. Nal_rA used to have around that too. There was a zerg too that used to be good and had around 80 APM... I forgot his name, something to do with water I guess... :p If you dont spam the move keys or selection hotkeys you can still play perfectly well with very low apm. Why don't you go inform every progamer with over 150apm that they're needlessly spamming and they can spare from serious wrist fatigue/injury in the future. Think about it, 13 hours of constant spamming every day, sheesh! Thank fuck we have people like you that are so knowledgeable about high level play, now run along and spread your expert insight! | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On November 14 2008 15:08 Artosis wrote: upmagic is 260ish. in very general terms, really intelligent players will be slower. the dumb-as-a-brick macro bots will be the ones who are like 400 apm. actually its just that to be a progamer while being slow you have to be smart. being smart doesnt entail being slow. | ||
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sowhat91
26 Posts
On November 14 2008 22:51 IdrA wrote: actually its just that to be a progamer while being slow you have to be smart. being smart doesnt entail being slow. and being fast doesnt entail being smart.... | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
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QibingZero
2611 Posts
On November 14 2008 22:51 IdrA wrote: actually its just that to be a progamer while being slow you have to be smart. being smart doesnt entail being slow. Yes, that makes a lot more sense when you consider players such as Jaedong that play at huge apm numbers and yet are by no means 'dumb-as-a-brick macro bots'. The statement works when comparing players such as Kang Min to some newer progamers, but certainly not overall. | ||
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Leath
Canada1724 Posts
On November 14 2008 13:04 -_- wrote: Tsunami was the Zerg! I Played Zerg because of him! Yes, Tsunami was his name. Thanks ^_^ On November 14 2008 16:43 KrAzYfoOL wrote: Why don't you go inform every progamer with over 150apm that they're needlessly spamming and they can spare from serious wrist fatigue/injury in the future. Think about it, 13 hours of constant spamming every day, sheesh! Thank fuck we have people like you that are so knowledgeable about high level play, now run along and spread your expert insight! Thanks for the flame. The question was "How can pro gamers with much lower APM keep up with the ones in the high end?". And in all honesty I see nothing wrong with what I answered. I just wanted to say APM is overrated, and not the answer to all your starcraft problems. I dont need to write a 1500 words argumentative essay to explain why. Nal_rA, Testie, and many other good players have very low APM and it is probably because they dont keep: Checking unit progress every millisecond, clicking move 10 times per selection, setting rally 3 times, ordering workers to build 10x the same building. Check FireBatHero playing live, check how many times he performs all those useless actions. Like he build an ebay to get the SCV in position to make the barracks ASAP, then spam like 5x barracks construction. Check how many times NaDa press 1,2,4,5,4,5,4,5,1,2,4,5 checking if his tank is ready, he even saves the machine shop on hotkey to check the progress and research spider mine/ make a tank or whatever as soon as possible. Attempt of perfect play? Maybe. But to me that still falls in the category of spam. Anyway, perhaps you will share your insight next time instead of just mindless flaming. | ||
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KrAzYfoOL
Australia3037 Posts
On November 14 2008 23:44 Leath wrote: Yes, Tsunami was his name. Thanks ^_^ Thanks for the flame. The question was "How can pro gamers with much lower APM keep up with the ones in the high end?". And in all honesty I see nothing wrong with what I answered. I just wanted to say APM is overrated, and not the answer to all your starcraft problems. I dont need to write a 1500 words argumentative essay to explain why. Nal_rA, Testie, and many other good players have very low APM and it is probably because they dont keep: Checking unit progress every millisecond, clicking move 10 times per selection, setting rally 3 times, ordering workers to build 10x the same building. Check FireBatHero playing live, check how many times he performs all those useless actions. Like he build an ebay to get the SCV in position to make the barracks ASAP, then spam like 5x barracks construction. Check how many times NaDa press 1,2,4,5,4,5,4,5,1,2,4,5 checking if his tank is ready, he even saves the machine shop on hotkey to check the progress and research spider mine/ make a tank or whatever as soon as possible. Attempt of perfect play? Maybe. But to me that still falls in the category of spam. Anyway, perhaps you will share your insight next time instead of just mindless flaming. I feel blessed that you responded to my post, it seems you know sooo much more about utilizing actions in starcraft than players of such high skill like Nada of FBH, and here i thought us simple teamliquidians that are miles away from ever being even half as good as the players mentioned should just stay clear away from critiquing how professional gamers manage themselves in game. But in the back of my mind just knew there was someone, that was heads and shoulders above us all, capable of providing such an expert opinion! Imagine how pro gamers would respond to your claims, imagine jaedong's response when you tell him that he is badly utilizing his actions, sure he's probably the best zerg in the world at the moment, but I'm sure he'd be all ears to maximizing his playability! Have you got any more useful insight? Maybe i could pass on your word to another RTS, i could tell moon,grubby,tod,sky...you know all the best players, that their 250+ apm is completely useless! | ||
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Leath
Canada1724 Posts
I never said that their spamming was useless or that pro gamers are utilizing bad their actions. I never said that pro gamers could improve their playability by lowering their APM. Where did you get the idea that I was giving advice to anyone??? What does my skill level or teamliquid's have to do with anything? Even IF I was giving advice, it would not matter. Soccer coaches dont have to be Maradona or Pele to give advices to players on the field. Thats a silly notion that you cant understand something unless you havent been there. Finally, I never criticized any pro gamer on their style of game play, I just said high APM is overrated. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
On November 14 2008 22:51 IdrA wrote: actually its just that to be a progamer while being slow you have to be smart. being smart doesnt entail being slow. I'm not sure that's entirely true. It could be that the more you spam, the harder it is to think. Thus, people who focus more on mechanics and just getting everything done perfectly, will not have as much focus to spare for strategical genius. Of course, that's why NaDa is so good. He's able to be fast, and smart. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
I have 260-280 APM. I do things very quickly, and my macro is pretty good. My micro is horrible though, I have zero precision. | ||
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Racenilatr
United States2756 Posts
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RoieTRS
United States2569 Posts
On November 16 2008 06:42 Racenilatr wrote: I dont believe micro falls under mechanics.... Some mechanics are optimized/maximized with micro. | ||
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randomscrub
Bulgaria44 Posts
However, theyre humans so thats impossible. AFAIK, the point of spamming useless actions is to make sure you don't miss any actually normal actions. Spamming 400+ apm also helps you build hand speed for those games where you actually need 200-300 unspammed APM. | ||
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Racenilatr
United States2756 Posts
On November 16 2008 07:59 RoieTRS wrote: Some mechanics are optimized/maximized with micro. such as? | ||
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CruiseR
Poland4014 Posts
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Try
United States1293 Posts
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
On November 13 2008 17:30 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Yes you can with zerg For example on blue storm you can put a lot of hatches around the min only and f2 it and the rest you can use hotkeys. f2 control+larvae sz 4sz5sz6szs7sz8sz? why "s" when you already have selected all the larvae? so it's just: f2 control+click h  | ||
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besiger
Croatia2452 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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Terranlisk
Singapore1404 Posts
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genryou
Malaysia390 Posts
He replied to some random dude who probably no longer exist in TL nowadays | ||
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