2008 US Presidential Election - Page 25

On February 22 2008 23:17 Servolisk wrote:
The debate was good last night. I thought Obama owned. Did any of the "Obama has no substance" people listen to it? :p I have this theory that they think he has no substance because they listen to 5 sec clips on the media where he is lauded as a good speaker, which somehow means that he's an empty suit.

He really seems serious about trying to take the high ground and stay out of dirty politics. He avoided it so much he wasn't even bothering to reply to the plagiarism thing beyond his initial point, after Hillary tried to jab him with it again. Similarly there were a lot of things that others would take advantage of in his position but he did not, like he didn't want to get into a debate about records and insult Hillary's. It's a interesting tactic.

On February 23 2008 17:35 BlackJack wrote:


Whether he is determined to take the high ground or not is irrelevant at this point. Taking the high ground is politically advantageous right now. I don't know if anyone caught O'reilly on the tonight show tonight, but he made some really good points. People generally like Obama and they generally dislike Clinton. Clinton has no strategy right now. Obama and Clinton are almost the same on the issues. If Clinton tries to go dirty, Obama just has to sit there and smile and she is seen as the mean old lady and he is the golden boy. There is nothing the Clinton campaign can do at this point other than pray.

On February 23 2008 18:08 kyari_ wrote:



no offense to the highly paid media pundits but wouldn't this have been easy to see oh, a year ago?

For their part, the Obama wonks tend to be inductive--working piecemeal from a series of real-world observations. One typical Goolsbee brainchild is something called an automatic tax return. The idea is that, if you had no tax deductions or freelance income the previous year, the IRS would send you a tax return that was already filled out. As long as you accepted the government's accounting, you could just sign it and mail it back. Goolsbee estimates this small innovation could save hundreds of millions of man-hours spent filling out tax forms, and billions of dollars in tax-preparation fees.

On February 23 2008 16:50 The Storyteller wrote:
I watched most of the debate live. I thought Obama did decently. He should also be able to blunt most of the impact of Clinton's closing words with the plagiarism/hypocrite implication (she copied John Edwards and Bill Clinton).

However (and maybe this is just me being an asshole), I felt that Obama was 手下留情 in Chinese... There's no real English equivalent. The closest I can get is that he didn't land the fatal blow when he could have? I thought he was going to tear her apart but he didn't quite. He always seemed to stop short.

For example, her plan to freeze interest rates for 5 years. He could have killed her on that point, with the economists to back him up, and then finished her by saying, "for someone who claims to have a lot of experience, you don't seem to grasp simple economics." A couple of other points like that arose in the debate as well. The point on healthcare, for example.

He did a very good job of defending himself, but not a very good job of attacking. Which is bad, because everytime Clinton tries to attack him, she looks like a partisan idiot and everytime he tries to attack her, he just looks like he's defending himself! He should have seized the opportunity!

On February 23 2008 16:50 The Storyteller wrote:
I watched most of the debate live. I thought Obama did decently. He should also be able to blunt most of the impact of Clinton's closing words with the plagiarism/hypocrite implication (she copied John Edwards and Bill Clinton).

However (and maybe this is just me being an asshole), I felt that Obama was 手下留情 in Chinese... There's no real English equivalent. The closest I can get is that he didn't land the fatal blow when he could have? I thought he was going to tear her apart but he didn't quite. He always seemed to stop short.

For example, her plan to freeze interest rates for 5 years. He could have killed her on that point, with the economists to back him up, and then finished her by saying, "for someone who claims to have a lot of experience, you don't seem to grasp simple economics." A couple of other points like that arose in the debate as well. The point on healthcare, for example.

He did a very good job of defending himself, but not a very good job of attacking. Which is bad, because everytime Clinton tries to attack him, she looks like a partisan idiot and everytime he tries to attack her, he just looks like he's defending himself! He should have seized the opportunity!

On February 23 2008 17:35 BlackJack wrote:
I don't know if anyone caught O'reilly on the tonight show tonight, but he made some really good points.

Hillary Clinton's Support of NAFTA Has Been Well Documented
February 23, 2008
HILLARY CLINTON PRAISED NAFTA FOR YEARS

2006/2008: Newsday Reviewed Clinton's Statements, Concluded She Supported NAFTA. According to a Newsday issues rundown, "Clinton thinks NAFTA has been a boon to the economy." Newsday wrote in 2008, the word "boon" was their "characterization of how we best understood her position on NAFTA, based on a review of past stories and her public statements." [New York Newsday, 9/11/06; Newsday blog, 2/15/08]

2003: Hillary Clinton Expounded on Benefits of NAFTA, Calling it An Important Legislative Goal. "Creating a free trade zone in North America—the largest free trade zone in the world—would expand U.S. exports, create jobs and ensure that our economy was reaping the benefits, not the burdens, of globalization. Although unpopular with labor unions, expanding trade opportunities was an important administration goal. The question was whether the White House could focus its energies on two legislative campaigns at once [NAFTA and health care]. I argued that we could and that postponing health care would further weaken its chances." [Living History, 182]

2003: Clinton Called NAFTA a "Victory" For President Clinton. In her memoir, published in 2003, Clinton wrote, "Senator Dole was genuinely interested in health care reform but wanted to run for President in 1996. He couldn't hand incumbent Bill Clinton any more legislative victories, particularly after Bill's successes on the budget, the Brady bill and NAFTA." [Living History, p.231]

1998: Clinton Praised Corporations for Their Efforts On Behalf of NAFTA. The Buffalo News reported, "As first lady, Hillary Clinton had nothing to do with either trade move. Nor has she repudiated them. In a 1998 World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, she praised corporations for mounting "a very effective business effort in the U.S. on behalf of NAFTA." [Buffalo News (New York), 7/16/07]

1996: Clinton Said "I Think Everybody Is In Favor Of Free And Fair Trade. I Think NAFTA Is Proving Its Worth." A questioner pointed out that UNITE opposes the North American Free Trade Agreement, backed by the Clinton administration, on grounds it sends American jobs to Mexico. In March 1996, three years after President Clinton signed NAFTA into law, Hillary Clinton said, "I think everybody is in favor of free and fair trade. I think NAFTA is proving its worth," she said, adding that if American workers can compete fairly, they can match any competition. "That's what a free and fair trade agreement like NAFTA is all about," she said. [AP, 3/6/96]

1996: Clinton "Vowed That Her Husband Would Continue To Support Economic Growth In South Texas Through Initiatives Such As The North American Free Trade Agreement." AP wrote, "Mrs. Clinton vowed that her husband would continue to support economic growth in South Texas through initiatives such as the North American Free Trade Agreement and the Rio Grande Valley empowerment zone, which allows tax breaks to businesses that relocate to the border." [AP, 11/2/96]

1996: Hillary Clinton "Touted" President Clinton's Support for NAFTA, Saying it Would Reap Widespread Benefit. On a trip to Brownsville, Texas, Clinton "touted the president's support for the North American Free Trade Agreement, saying it would reap widespread benefits in the region." [United Press International, 11/1/96]


DURING THIS CAMPAIGN, WHEN ASKED ABOUT NAFTA, CLINTON HAS NOT CLAIMED SHE DID NOT SUPPORT IT

Asked Whether NAFTA Was a Mistake, Clinton Said It Was a Mistake To the Extent That It Did Not Deliver. Clinton, asked whether NAFTA was a mistake, said "Look, NAFTA did not do what many had hoped. And so we do need to take a look at it and we do need to figure out how we're going to have trade relations that are smart, that give the American worker and the American consumer rights around the world. ... NAFTA was a mistake to the extent that it did not deliver on what we had hoped it would, and that's why I call for trade timeout. When I am president, I'm going to evaluate every trade agreement. We do need to get back to enforcing the ones we have, which the Bush administration has not done. They have totally abdicated that. But I think we have to get broader than that. We've got to have enforceable labor and environmental standards. We've got the WTO that enforces financial and corporate rights. We need the International Labor Organization and other mechanisms that will be there to enforce labor rights and environmental rights. And that's what I intend to do as president." [Democratic Debate, 11/15/07] VIDEO HERE

Clinton Didn't Say Whether NAFTA Should Be Repealed; Just Said It Didn't Realize The Benefits It Promised. Clinton, on whether she'd be willing to repeal four things (DOMA, Telecom Act of 1996, NAFTA and Welfare Reform) that happened during the Clinton years said, "NAFTA, you know, I have said that NAFTA did not realize the benefits that it was promised for a number of reasons. This is not just about Mexico but about the tri partied relationship. So I thing generally we've have to generally have smarter trade agreement that not only have labor and environmental standards which I fully support but really have an ongoing evaluation of the impact of trade agreements." [YearlyKos, 8/4/07]


BILL CLINTON CONTINUES TO ARGUE FOR NAFTA

JANUARY 2008: Bill Clinton Said "A Lot Of People Think NAFTA's A Bigger Problem Than it Is. During an event in Las Vegas, Clinton said "She [Hillary Clinton] believes that NAFTA, she believes that all our trade agreements should be reviewed in the first 90 to 120 days of taking office. She would have a total moratorium on all new trade deals until we conducted a review. And one of the things that we have to examine is the point I made earlier. That is, is the trade agreement basically fair, but we just don't enforce it. A lot of people think that NAFTA's a bigger problem than it is. Our problem with Mexico, our trade deficit with Mexico is mostly because we buy oil from them." [Bill Clinton, 1/18/08]

Bill Clinton Defended His Decision To Enact NAFTA And Disagreed With His Wife That It Has Hurt Workers. "President Clinton is closing one policy disagreement with Senator Clinton while keeping another alive, saying his wife is right to forbid the use of torture but wrong that his signature trade deal has ‘hurt' American workers. ... He staunchly defended his decision in 1993 to support the North American Free Trade Agreement, which Mrs. Clinton said over the summer had ‘hurt a lot of American workers.' Asked directly by ABC's George Stephanopoulos if he agreed that the pact had hurt workers, Mr. Clinton replied, ‘No.' He said NAFTA had become a ‘symbol' but America had worse trade deficits with countries such as China and Japan than it did with Mexico." [NY Sun, 10/1/07]


COMMENTERS HAVE CRITICIZED CLINTON FOR HER FLIP ON TRADE

Bloomberg: Clinton "Praised" NAFTA, Friends Said She Was "A Free-Trader at Heart." Bloomberg News reported, "Clinton promoted her husband's trade agenda for years, and friends say that she's a free-trader at heart. 'The simple fact is, nations with free-market systems do better,'' she said in a 1997 speech to the Corporate Council on Africa. 'Look around the globe: Those nations which have lowered trade barriers are prospering more than those that have not.' Praise for Nafta At the 1998 World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, she praised corporations for mounting 'a very effective business effort in the U.S. on behalf of Nafta.'' She added: 'It is certainly clear that we have not by any means finished the job that has begun.' Clinton 'is committed to free trade and to the growing role of the international economy,' said Steven Rattner, a Clinton fundraiser and co-founder of Quadrangle Group LLC, a New York buyout firm. 'She would absolutely do the right thing as president.' There was little evidence of a protectionist tilt to Clinton's trade views during either her 2000 campaign or first years in the Senate. She stressed issues such as homeland security and children's health care, and wasn't a major voice in trade-policy debates. As she began to gear up for a White House run, Clinton became less of a free-trade booster and more skeptical about the payoff of globalization." [ Bloomberg News, 3/30/07]

SF Chronicle: Clinton's Position On Trade "Clearly A Flip-Flip To Unions And Industry Sectors" And A "Bid To Outflank Her Rival, Senator Barack Obama." "Add to this Democratic front-runner Sen. Hillary Clinton's coolness to the idea. Her husband moved earth and sky to win passage of the NAFTA trade pact with Mexico and Canada in 1993. Now she favors periodic reviews to continue such deals, a "timeout" on new ones, and more federal officials to oversee complaints. It's clearly a flip-flop favor to unions and industry sectors hit by layoffs and cheap imports and bid to outflank her rival, Sen. Barack Obama, who is more favorable to free trade." [San Francisco Chronicle, 10/12/07]

On February 25 2008 03:00 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
God damn that ass hat.

On February 24 2008 12:40 fusionsdf wrote:


What do you guys think about this? ( and obama's other economic policies?)

Lots more information here:
http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=4d40a39e-8f57-4054-bd99-94bc9d19be1a