You say now, “well no one is voluntarily lining up for Enlightenment values.” But this is a selective use of “voluntary.” I say we stop abetting genocide. Period. Israel can fend for itself. That’s an option it has. Or it can voluntarily submit to police control intended to stop genocide and to promote equality under the law and all those other cherished Enlightenment values within Israel.
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
You say now, “well no one is voluntarily lining up for Enlightenment values.” But this is a selective use of “voluntary.” I say we stop abetting genocide. Period. Israel can fend for itself. That’s an option it has. Or it can voluntarily submit to police control intended to stop genocide and to promote equality under the law and all those other cherished Enlightenment values within Israel. | ||
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Falling
Canada11355 Posts
The part that makes it necessary to shoot into civilian areas is the rockets firing from those same locations. No rocket attacks from civilian areas, no sniper shots back. As far as I can tell, this is a very calculated move by Hamas to increase casualties. to murder innocent unarmed Palestinians deliberately and without caution, I'm not sure that this is the case. Yes there is incaution and deliberation, but generally after dealing with decades of rocketfire and suicide attacks, I do think they exercise a great deal of restraint and generally their goals are limited to the cessation of rocket attacks and not wanton murder of civilians. Even those dreaded checkpoints came about as an attempt to slow down the number of suicide attacks. These aren't the actions of a nation looking to destroy another nation, but one trying to prevent their civilian populations from being killed in targeted attacks. @GH Actually you couldn't with Holocaust numbers. 1939, they peaked at 17 million. That dropped to 11 million. They still have not recovered: 13 million is the count in 2010. So a tenfold increase in about the same time frame vs still running at under 5 million from 70-80 years ago. | ||
xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On November 28 2018 06:42 IgnE wrote: Let’s put aside for a second your imprecise terminology. What do you think happens if the US stops sending Israel military aid? That was what started this discussion: should we continue to protect Israel? Your position was we have to because genocide is the only option. I say no, actually there are many options. For example, we can enforce peace. My position is 1) there will never be peace between Israel and Palestine until one side completely dominates the other, 2) recognizing this fact, we should choose to support the side that is most like to win out and is mostly likely be an ally, and 3) that side is clearly Israel. This idea that we can enforce the peace is laughable. It's not going to happen. Even in areas of the world where the UN sticks peacekeepers, shit still happens. You say now, “well no one is voluntarily lining up for Enlightenment values.” But this is a selective use of “voluntary.” I say we stop abetting genocide. Period. Israel can fend for itself. That’s an option it has. Or it can voluntarily submit to police control intended to stop genocide and to promote equality under the law and all those other cherished Enlightenment values within Israel. I'm not selectively using any term. You're the one who floated the idea of one world government, so I responded to it pointing out the obvious reality that the whole world isn't going to voluntarily submit to it. Now you're talking about US policy vis a vis Israel, which is fine. Just don't commingle the discussions. As for Israel and Palestine, the "genocide" is going to happen regardless of what the US does. The US doesn't send money to Israel to abet the genocide. The US gives aid to Israel because Israel is a useful strategic proxy in the region. What Israel does with Palestine is quite incidental. | ||
IgnE
United States7681 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On November 28 2018 08:52 IgnE wrote: It’s pretty easy to enforce the peace actually. Just threaten to withhold aid unless Israel immediately stops their settlements and makes other overtures towards peace. Pulling the money strings didn't work on the Palestinians. Why do you think it will work on the Israelis? EDIT: Hell, let's look at the other side of the coin. How many countries do we sanction for bad behavior? How effective have those sanctions been at changing that bad behavior? | ||
GreenHorizons
United States23255 Posts
On November 28 2018 06:55 Falling wrote: @Jock The part that makes it necessary to shoot into civilian areas is the rockets firing from those same locations. No rocket attacks from civilian areas, no sniper shots back. As far as I can tell, this is a very calculated move by Hamas to increase casualties. I'm not sure that this is the case. Yes there is incaution and deliberation, but generally after dealing with decades of rocketfire and suicide attacks, I do think they exercise a great deal of restraint and generally their goals are limited to the cessation of rocket attacks and not wanton murder of civilians. Even those dreaded checkpoints came about as an attempt to slow down the number of suicide attacks. These aren't the actions of a nation looking to destroy another nation, but one trying to prevent their civilian populations from being killed in targeted attacks. @GH Actually you couldn't with Holocaust numbers. 1939, they peaked at 17 million. That dropped to 11 million. They still have not recovered: 13 million is the count in 2010. So a tenfold increase in about the same time frame vs still running at under 5 million from 70-80 years ago. Not sure where you're pulling those numbers but they don't quite match several I've seen. I don't even want to try for fear I accidentally quote some holocaust denial site and people think I'm making a sincere argument instead of pointing out that Israel's introduction to the middle east reduced the Muslims in Palestine almost 90%. The holocaust didn't even come close to getting rid of 90% of Jews (Germany reduced their domestic Jewish population by about half through WWII). But out breeding attempted genocide (that has to be somewhat tempered because the world can see) doesn't mean you aren't being systemically swept from the land. Which if people want to get bound up on the "genocide" term we can just go with the systematic and violent removal of them from their homes with no where to go and a lack of human rights. It's a bit mouthful but I can be reasonable. EDIT: I should have mentioned, no there weren't rockets coming from the civilians at the border before they were shot by snipers. Maybe rocks, but not rockets. Israel is a nation trying to eliminate/subjugate the Palestinian population without people drawing attention to the obvious hypocrisy. | ||
IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On November 28 2018 09:04 xDaunt wrote: Pulling the money strings didn't work on the Palestinians. Why do you think it will work on the Israelis? EDIT: Hell, let's look at the other side of the coin. How many countries do we sanction for bad behavior? How effective have those sanctions been at changing that bad behavior? Because presumably we are the only thing standing between Israel and oblivion, right? I mean why do we bother? Just to win their favor so they don’t look towards Putin instead? | ||
xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On November 28 2018 11:07 IgnE wrote: Because presumably we are the only thing standing between Israel and oblivion, right? I mean why do we bother? Just to win their favor so they don’t look towards Putin instead? Israel doesn’t really need us to survive. They have both nukes and a superior conventional military compared to everyone else in the region. We support Israel because it is in our national strategic interest to do so. They’re our proxy in the region. | ||
GreenHorizons
United States23255 Posts
On November 28 2018 11:29 xDaunt wrote: Israel doesn’t really need us to survive. They have both nukes and a superior conventional military compared to everyone else in the region. We support Israel because it is in our national strategic interest to do so. They’re our proxy in the region. You can see then why the decades of peace talks where the US was supposed to be a neutral arbiter were basically completely fallacious then? | ||
xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On November 28 2018 11:45 GreenHorizons wrote: You can see then why the decades of peace talks where the US was supposed to be a neutral arbiter were basically completely fallacious then? Fallacious isn't the word that I would use to describe the US arbitration of peace talks between Israel and Palestine. Through Clinton's efforts, Israel put a deal on a table for the Palestinians that was, from a practical perspective, far better than the Palestinians had any right to expect. Israel has always held all of the cards. They won the important battles long ago. Anything that they give the Palestinians is pure charity. With all of this in mind, the two state solution brokered by Clinton and offered by Barak was a great deal for the Palestinians. Yet Arafat spurned it. No, the correct adjective for the US arbitration of the peace talks is "stupid." The Palestinians offer the US nothing. They despise the US (not that they don't have justification). Hell, I remember when they were dancing in celebration in the streets on 9/11. We have no business giving aid or any assistance to such a people. They will never be our friends or allies. Hell, they're really no one's friends and allies if you really think about it. That it took until the Trump presidency for the US to finally adopt a position with moral and practical clarity on the Israel/Palestine dispute is a damning indictment showing the pure incompetence of our foreign policy apparatus. | ||
GreenHorizons
United States23255 Posts
On November 28 2018 12:41 xDaunt wrote: Fallacious isn't the word that I would use to describe the US arbitration of peace talks between Israel and Palestine. Through Clinton's efforts, Israel put a deal on a table for the Palestinians that was, from a practical perspective, far better than the Palestinians had any right to expect. Israel has always held all of the cards. They won the important battles long ago. Anything that they give the Palestinians is pure charity. With all of this in mind, the two state solution brokered by Clinton and offered by Barak was a great deal for the Palestinians. Yet Arafat spurned it. No, the correct adjective for the US arbitration of the peace talks is "stupid." The Palestinians offer the US nothing. They despise the US (not that they don't have justification). Hell, I remember when they were dancing in celebration in the streets on 9/11. We have no business giving aid or any assistance to such a people. They will never be our friends or allies. Hell, they're really no one's friends and allies if you really think about it. That it took until the Trump presidency for the US to finally adopt a position with moral and practical clarity on the Israel/Palestine dispute is a damning indictment showing the pure incompetence of our foreign policy apparatus. Didn't that deal include the implicit condition that Arafat be removed from power with no real assurance what has happened to the Palestinians wouldn't have happened anyway. Even if they were model neighbors to perfection. As your "proxy" comment suggests, Israel isn't there to peacefully coexist, they are there as a military and industrial force for western imperialism in the middle east standing in opposition to most if not all of the region. The very creation of Israel was a hostile act of aggression declaring eternal conflict on those in the region. | ||
xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On November 28 2018 13:12 GreenHorizons wrote: Didn't that deal include the implicit condition that Arafat be removed from power with no real assurance what has happened to the Palestinians wouldn't have happened anyway. Even if they were model neighbors to perfection. I don't remember all of the details of the deal, but I don't think that there's a serious argument to be made that Palestine is materially better off now than had they taken the deal. As your "proxy" comment suggests, Israel isn't there to peacefully coexist, they are there as a military and industrial force for western imperialism in the middle east standing in opposition to most if not all of the region. The very creation of Israel was a hostile act of aggression declaring eternal conflict on those in the region. The only problem that I have with this is that the entire Middle East was a western colony when Israel was founded. It's not like sticking Israel there signaled a new or heightened level of western meddling. | ||
GreenHorizons
United States23255 Posts
On November 28 2018 13:42 xDaunt wrote: I don't remember all of the details of the deal, but I don't think that there's a serious argument to be made that Palestine is materially better off now than had they taken the deal. The only problem that I have with this is that the entire Middle East was a western colony when Israel was founded. It's not like sticking Israel there signaled a new or heightened level of western meddling. That wasn't my suggestion. My suggestion was that the deal had obvious drawbacks (especially for the leader that got them there) and no assurance they would be any better off than they were without it. As you say the west's intentions to dominate the region (not peacefully coexist) goes back before the hostile act of aggression that was the creation of Israel so the distrust of terms offered by the west from Palestinians is the only reasonable position. You can't out of one side of your mouth say the Palestinians existence offers us nothing of value and out of the other side say your overtures of peace were sincere. | ||
LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
1. Although at least a few serious attempts at establishing a Jewish state had been made before, it pretty much never took off, either because the suggestions were antagonistic ("deport them all to X!") or because they were untenable (wrong location, no real autonomy, etc). Ultimately, setting up camp near Jerusalem makes sense from the simple but core perspective of common cultural heritage: regardless of where in the world any given Jewish individual is from, they have cultural ties to that place and it's the one place that really makes sense to return to if there isn't any particular home to go to in the first place. Historically (recent and not so recent) it is very reasonable for them to want control over their own borders, and to say that there was some better option is more than just naive. 2. No one "gave up" that land by any stretch of the imagination. Zionists in the Palestinian territory fought an insurgency against British control for a while - with terrorism in the mix no less. There was a fight against Arabs as well as the British for control of that territory. They won that not by UN mandate, but by gathering sympathetic money and fighters from wherever they could get their hands on it. As it happened, militarily they had that fight pretty thoroughly won by the time that the UN "created" Israel - that is a confirmation of what had already happened long before. 3. There wasn't this widespread support for Zionists to establish their own state in the Middle East. Europe was frantically trying to save the scraps of its collapsing colonial empire in the aftermath of WWII - such as the British territory of Palestine for that matter. The Soviet Union had its own problems and certainly was never on the side of Israel. The US, although eventually supportive of Israel, had serious reservations to put it lightly: V. PALESTINE AND THE MIDDLE EAST The Staff views on Palestine have been made known in a separate paper. I do not intend to recapitulate them here. But there are two background considerations of determining importance, both for the Palestine question and for our whole position in the Middle East, which I should like to emphasize at this time. 1. The British strategic position in the Middle East. We have decided in this Government that the security of the Middle East is vital to our own security. We have also decided that it would not be desirable or advantageous for us to attempt to duplicate or take over the strategic facilities now held by the British in that area. We have recognized that these facilities would be at our effective disposal anyway, in the event of war, and that to attempt to get them transferred, in the formal sense, from the British to ourselves would only raise a host of new and unnecessary problems, and would probably be generally unsuccessful. This means that we must do what we can to support the maintenance of the British of their strategic position in that area. This does not mean that we must support them in every individual instance. It does not mean that we must back them up in cases where they have gotten themselves into a false position or where we would thereby be undertaking extravagant political commitments. It does mean that any policy on our part which tends to strain British relations with the Arab world and to whittle down the British position in the Arab countries is only a policy directed against ourselves and against the immediate strategic interests of our country. 2. The direction of our own policy. The pressures to which this Government is now subjected are ones which impel us toward a position where we would shoulder major responsibility for the maintenance, and even the expansion, of a Jewish state in Palestine. To the extent that we move in this direction we will be operating directly counter to our major security interests in that area. For this reason, our policy in the Palestine issue should be dominated by the determination to avoid being impelled along this path. We are now heavily and unfortunately involved in this Palestine question. We will apparently have to make certain further concessions to our past commitments and to domestic pressures. These concessions will be dangerous ones; but they will not necessarily be catastrophic if we are thoroughly conscious of what we are doing, and if we lay our general course toward the avoidance of the possibility of the responsibility I have referred to. If we do not lay our course in that direction but drift along the lines of least resistance in the existing vortex of cross currents, our entire policy in the Middle Eastern area will unquestionably be carried in the direction of confusion, ineffectiveness, and grievous involvement in a situation to which there cannot be—from our standpoint—any happy ending. I think it should be stated that if this Government is carried to a point in the Palestine controversy where it is required to send U.S. forces to Palestine in any manner whatsoever, or to agree either to the international recruitment of volunteers or the sending of small nation forces which would include those of Soviet satellites, then in my opinion, the whole structure of strategic and political planning which we have been building up for the Mediterranean and Middle Eastern areas would have to be re-examined and probably modified or replaced by something else. For this would then mean that we had consented to be guided, in a highly important question affecting those areas, not by national interest but by other considerations. If we tried, in the face of this fact, to continue with policy in adjacent areas motivated solely by national interest, we would be faced with a duality of purpose which would surely lead in the end to a dissipation and confusion of effort. We cannot operate with one objective in one area, and with a conflicting one next door. If, therefore, we decide that we are obliged by past commitments or UN decision or any other consideration to take a leading part in the enforcement of Palestine of any arrangement opposed by the great majority of the inhabitants of the Middle Eastern area, we must be prepared to face the implications of this act by revising our general policy in that part of the world. And since the Middle East is vital to the present security concepts on which this Government is basing itself in its worldwide military and political planning, this would further mean a review of our entire military and political policy. That all said, go ahead and continue with discussing whatever concerns are of interest in the modern times, 70 years after all of this went down. | ||
GreenHorizons
United States23255 Posts
On November 28 2018 14:35 LegalLord wrote: GH: I think your entire conception of how Israel was formed is both fundamentally flawed, and that that flawed conception is at the core of your argument overall. Although a UN action did "create" Israel, by the time that had happened it was a formality that confirmed the reality of the situation that actually existed on the ground. Couple of points worth making: 1. Although at least a few serious attempts at establishing a Jewish state had been made before, it pretty much never took off, either because the suggestions were antagonistic ("deport them all to X!") or because they were untenable (wrong location, no real autonomy, etc). Ultimately, setting up camp near Jerusalem makes sense from the simple but core perspective of common cultural heritage: regardless of where in the world any given Jewish individual is from, they have cultural ties to that place and it's the one place that really makes sense to return to if there isn't any particular home to go to in the first place. Historically (recent and not so recent) it is very reasonable for them to want control over their own borders, and to say that there was some better option is more than just naive. 2. No one "gave up" that land by any stretch of the imagination. Zionists in the Palestinian territory fought an insurgency against British control for a while - with terrorism in the mix no less. There was a fight against Arabs as well as the British for control of that territory. They won that not by UN mandate, but by gathering sympathetic money and fighters from wherever they could get their hands on it. As it happened, militarily they had that fight pretty thoroughly won by the time that the UN "created" Israel - that is a confirmation of what had already happened long before. 3. There wasn't this widespread support for Zionists to establish their own state in the Middle East. Europe was frantically trying to save the scraps of its collapsing colonial empire in the aftermath of WWII - such as the British territory of Palestine for that matter. The Soviet Union had its own problems and certainly was never on the side of Israel. The US, although eventually supportive of Israel, had serious reservations to put it lightly: That all said, go ahead and continue with discussing whatever concerns are of interest in the modern times, 70 years after all of this went down. I mean I have minor qualms about the framing of some of your take but I don't think our two interpretations are mutually exclusive. Israel wanted more autonomy and Britain wanted a colony so they came to terms along with the US. Palestinians were essentially told "tough shit, love it or leave it". | ||
Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9661 Posts
On November 28 2018 06:55 Falling wrote: @Jock The part that makes it necessary to shoot into civilian areas is the rockets firing from those same locations. No rocket attacks from civilian areas, no sniper shots back. As far as I can tell, this is a very calculated move by Hamas to increase casualties. I'm not sure that this is the case. Yes there is incaution and deliberation, but generally after dealing with decades of rocketfire and suicide attacks, I do think they exercise a great deal of restraint and generally their goals are limited to the cessation of rocket attacks and not wanton murder of civilians. Even those dreaded checkpoints came about as an attempt to slow down the number of suicide attacks. These aren't the actions of a nation looking to destroy another nation, but one trying to prevent their civilian populations from being killed in targeted attacks. Don't get me wrong, they have framed the incidents as self defense, but the reality is very different. There have been events in the last few years that have gone down exactly as you describe, but there have also been times when people have been shot by snipers for throwing rocks, and rockets and Hamas have literally zero to do with this. These are not one off, isolated incidents but a regular occurrence. If you keep 4 million innocent people in prison, some of them will get angry and throw rocks - this does not make them guilty or criminals - shooting them to satisfy the urges of the IDF isn't a valid response, and it cannot be justified. These aren't the actions of a nation looking to destroy another nation, but one trying to prevent their civilian populations from being killed in targeted attacks. Part one is correct, part two is incorrect. They aren't the actions of a nation looking to destroy another nation, they are the actions of an army full of bigoted, bloodthirsty soldiers who are trained to see all Palestinians as an enemy force, an army which encourages this where they can and covers up the worst, most horrifying cases. To put it bluntly, if you are happy for governments to use 'defense of the state' or 'national security' as a justification for murdering unarmed innocent civilians in Israel, think about what means for worldwide governments. Are Russia justified in poisoning people on UK soil, killing enemies of Putin worldwide in defense of their state? Would the UK army be justified in rooting out and killing members of the IRA? Or is it more that you believe that the extreme circumstances of Israel mean that all normal international laws should be suspended? | ||
Danglars
United States12133 Posts
Gorsuch/Sotomayor right-left unions on some matters of mutual interest is something I'm now watching for the current Court. | ||
ReditusSum
79 Posts
On November 29 2018 02:56 Danglars wrote: We're probably getting a useful decision against civil asset forfeiture in the near future. This is great news. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28675 Posts
On November 28 2018 09:04 xDaunt wrote: Pulling the money strings didn't work on the Palestinians. Why do you think it will work on the Israelis? EDIT: Hell, let's look at the other side of the coin. How many countries do we sanction for bad behavior? How effective have those sanctions been at changing that bad behavior? the most relevant example is south africa. international pressure worked. | ||
iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On November 29 2018 05:01 Liquid`Drone wrote: the most relevant example is south africa. international pressure worked. Did it? I thought Mu-WAHAHAHA-gabe was deposed by a military coup in the end? | ||
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