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On September 21 2018 16:20 Danglars wrote:
If Trump can pull off some reforms, even if it's only from Congress being so shocked at how the FBI, Justice Department, and Intelligence Agencies behaved that they're forced to pass legislation, the faults will pale by comparison.
The way the FBI was used in the tail end of the Obama administration was a disgrace. The federal government does not have the right to wiretap its citizens, but obviously the protocols were evaded and post-hoc justified. Furthermore, the fact that this happened in the context of a Democratic Presidential campaign coordinating with a Democratic Presidential Administration through Steele/Ohr to nail a Republican campaign and presidency is just insult to injury. That's all without getting into the radical deviancy of figures like Comey and McCabe and Strzok. If Trump manages to get to the bottom of this and correct the record, he's practically a Byronic hero. He breaks stifling regs, finally has sane Israeli-American and Palestinian-American relations, good UN ambassador, tax cuts, judicial appointees, and that will all just be gravy.
It doesn't make him any less deserving of the denunciations that frequently are accurate. I see a lot of people like GH who list out the angles in the hopes of arriving at "How could he ever be anything but 'utterly unacceptable.' The national government's in kind of a bad state, and it's not because of golf games and tweeting. The unelected half is up in arms against the elected half, and will not cede power for their own protection and a perverse perception of the good of the country. We can afford to put all that junk on the back burner (and thankfully an electoral majority made a similarly right decision back in 2016, a fact for which I am forever grateful).
I have to concede if he cracked down on the FBI that would score some serious points. Of course I don't think for a second that's going to be the outcome of this. It is pretty much the only thing on that list I would personally consider positive, but I can understand how you guys would like that other stuff.
The radical decline in the credibility of the FBI and Justice department in the eyes of conservatives is pretty huge imo. They were practically untouchable prior to Trump, you and xDaunt being some of their most fervent defenders. Now you guys talk about them as if they are executing a massive criminal conspiracy. That's something conservatives/Republicans would have rejected outright during the Bush administration. Turns out they've always been criminal dirtbags, even back when many people on the right thought they were beyond reproach.
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On September 21 2018 07:57 xDaunt wrote:
So random interviews of an indeterminate number of classmates seeing if they know anything about what happened, and hoping to find one who knows something. There's nothing targeted about that process at all. It would take forever to do it, and the probability of finding anything (given that everyone appears to have been drunk at these parties) is remote. Like I said, that's a fishing expedition.
Isn't this basically normal policework though? Talking to anyone that might know something, was in any way close to the point of the (possible) crime, or knows the people involved? You call that a "fishing expedition", so how do you think the police usually investigates crimes? In the hollywood manner of talking to one person, she tells you the next person to talk to, they tell you of the third person, who tells you something that makes you realize that the first person lied, so you arrest them? All done by two buddy cops with some charming synergy, one of whom is a T-Rex?
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On September 21 2018 17:15 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2018 16:20 Danglars wrote:
If Trump can pull off some reforms, even if it's only from Congress being so shocked at how the FBI, Justice Department, and Intelligence Agencies behaved that they're forced to pass legislation, the faults will pale by comparison.
The way the FBI was used in the tail end of the Obama administration was a disgrace. The federal government does not have the right to wiretap its citizens, but obviously the protocols were evaded and post-hoc justified. Furthermore, the fact that this happened in the context of a Democratic Presidential campaign coordinating with a Democratic Presidential Administration through Steele/Ohr to nail a Republican campaign and presidency is just insult to injury. That's all without getting into the radical deviancy of figures like Comey and McCabe and Strzok. If Trump manages to get to the bottom of this and correct the record, he's practically a Byronic hero. He breaks stifling regs, finally has sane Israeli-American and Palestinian-American relations, good UN ambassador, tax cuts, judicial appointees, and that will all just be gravy.
It doesn't make him any less deserving of the denunciations that frequently are accurate. I see a lot of people like GH who list out the angles in the hopes of arriving at "How could he ever be anything but 'utterly unacceptable.' The national government's in kind of a bad state, and it's not because of golf games and tweeting. The unelected half is up in arms against the elected half, and will not cede power for their own protection and a perverse perception of the good of the country. We can afford to put all that junk on the back burner (and thankfully an electoral majority made a similarly right decision back in 2016, a fact for which I am forever grateful). I have to concede if he cracked down on the FBI that would score some serious points. Of course I don't think for a second that's going to be the outcome of this. It is pretty much the only thing on that list I would personally consider positive, but I can understand how you guys would like that other stuff. The radical decline in the credibility of the FBI and Justice department in the eyes of conservatives is pretty huge imo. They were practically untouchable prior to Trump, you and xDaunt being some of their most fervent defenders. Now you guys talk about them as if they are executing a massive criminal conspiracy. That's something conservatives/Republicans would have rejected outright during the Bush administration. Turns out they've always been criminal dirtbags, even back when many people on the right thought they were beyond reproach.
“Being some of their most fervent defenders” yeah right. “Would have rejected outright during the Bush administration” haha too. See, those are just slurs, not arguments. Do better.
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On September 21 2018 22:03 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2018 17:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 21 2018 16:20 Danglars wrote:
If Trump can pull off some reforms, even if it's only from Congress being so shocked at how the FBI, Justice Department, and Intelligence Agencies behaved that they're forced to pass legislation, the faults will pale by comparison.
The way the FBI was used in the tail end of the Obama administration was a disgrace. The federal government does not have the right to wiretap its citizens, but obviously the protocols were evaded and post-hoc justified. Furthermore, the fact that this happened in the context of a Democratic Presidential campaign coordinating with a Democratic Presidential Administration through Steele/Ohr to nail a Republican campaign and presidency is just insult to injury. That's all without getting into the radical deviancy of figures like Comey and McCabe and Strzok. If Trump manages to get to the bottom of this and correct the record, he's practically a Byronic hero. He breaks stifling regs, finally has sane Israeli-American and Palestinian-American relations, good UN ambassador, tax cuts, judicial appointees, and that will all just be gravy.
It doesn't make him any less deserving of the denunciations that frequently are accurate. I see a lot of people like GH who list out the angles in the hopes of arriving at "How could he ever be anything but 'utterly unacceptable.' The national government's in kind of a bad state, and it's not because of golf games and tweeting. The unelected half is up in arms against the elected half, and will not cede power for their own protection and a perverse perception of the good of the country. We can afford to put all that junk on the back burner (and thankfully an electoral majority made a similarly right decision back in 2016, a fact for which I am forever grateful). I have to concede if he cracked down on the FBI that would score some serious points. Of course I don't think for a second that's going to be the outcome of this. It is pretty much the only thing on that list I would personally consider positive, but I can understand how you guys would like that other stuff. The radical decline in the credibility of the FBI and Justice department in the eyes of conservatives is pretty huge imo. They were practically untouchable prior to Trump, you and xDaunt being some of their most fervent defenders. Now you guys talk about them as if they are executing a massive criminal conspiracy. That's something conservatives/Republicans would have rejected outright during the Bush administration. Turns out they've always been criminal dirtbags, even back when many people on the right thought they were beyond reproach. “Being some of their most fervent defenders” yeah right. “Would have rejected outright during the Bush administration” haha too. See, those are just slurs, not arguments. Do better.
Did you think the FBI and Justice Department were the type of organizations that would engage in massive criminal conspiracies?
Or did you think they were honorable and trustworthy organizations which we could trust to bring about justice?
Maybe I'm wrong about which of those camps you would have found yourself in back then vs now.
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On September 21 2018 17:15 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2018 16:20 Danglars wrote:
If Trump can pull off some reforms, even if it's only from Congress being so shocked at how the FBI, Justice Department, and Intelligence Agencies behaved that they're forced to pass legislation, the faults will pale by comparison.
The way the FBI was used in the tail end of the Obama administration was a disgrace. The federal government does not have the right to wiretap its citizens, but obviously the protocols were evaded and post-hoc justified. Furthermore, the fact that this happened in the context of a Democratic Presidential campaign coordinating with a Democratic Presidential Administration through Steele/Ohr to nail a Republican campaign and presidency is just insult to injury. That's all without getting into the radical deviancy of figures like Comey and McCabe and Strzok. If Trump manages to get to the bottom of this and correct the record, he's practically a Byronic hero. He breaks stifling regs, finally has sane Israeli-American and Palestinian-American relations, good UN ambassador, tax cuts, judicial appointees, and that will all just be gravy.
It doesn't make him any less deserving of the denunciations that frequently are accurate. I see a lot of people like GH who list out the angles in the hopes of arriving at "How could he ever be anything but 'utterly unacceptable.' The national government's in kind of a bad state, and it's not because of golf games and tweeting. The unelected half is up in arms against the elected half, and will not cede power for their own protection and a perverse perception of the good of the country. We can afford to put all that junk on the back burner (and thankfully an electoral majority made a similarly right decision back in 2016, a fact for which I am forever grateful). I have to concede if he cracked down on the FBI that would score some serious points. Of course I don't think for a second that's going to be the outcome of this. It is pretty much the only thing on that list I would personally consider positive, but I can understand how you guys would like that other stuff. The radical decline in the credibility of the FBI and Justice department in the eyes of conservatives is pretty huge imo. They were practically untouchable prior to Trump, you and xDaunt being some of their most fervent defenders. Now you guys talk about them as if they are executing a massive criminal conspiracy. That's something conservatives/Republicans would have rejected outright during the Bush administration. Turns out they've always been criminal dirtbags, even back when many people on the right thought they were beyond reproach.
I've never been a fan of the FBI or any other law enforcement in general for its own sake. What I am a huge proponent of is law and order. To the extent that the FBI or any other agency breaks the law or abuses its authority, it should burn like anyone else.
EDIT: I take that back. Law enforcement and other public officials should burn worse when they break the law in their official capacities due to their abuse of the public trust.
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On September 21 2018 22:43 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2018 17:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 21 2018 16:20 Danglars wrote:
If Trump can pull off some reforms, even if it's only from Congress being so shocked at how the FBI, Justice Department, and Intelligence Agencies behaved that they're forced to pass legislation, the faults will pale by comparison.
The way the FBI was used in the tail end of the Obama administration was a disgrace. The federal government does not have the right to wiretap its citizens, but obviously the protocols were evaded and post-hoc justified. Furthermore, the fact that this happened in the context of a Democratic Presidential campaign coordinating with a Democratic Presidential Administration through Steele/Ohr to nail a Republican campaign and presidency is just insult to injury. That's all without getting into the radical deviancy of figures like Comey and McCabe and Strzok. If Trump manages to get to the bottom of this and correct the record, he's practically a Byronic hero. He breaks stifling regs, finally has sane Israeli-American and Palestinian-American relations, good UN ambassador, tax cuts, judicial appointees, and that will all just be gravy.
It doesn't make him any less deserving of the denunciations that frequently are accurate. I see a lot of people like GH who list out the angles in the hopes of arriving at "How could he ever be anything but 'utterly unacceptable.' The national government's in kind of a bad state, and it's not because of golf games and tweeting. The unelected half is up in arms against the elected half, and will not cede power for their own protection and a perverse perception of the good of the country. We can afford to put all that junk on the back burner (and thankfully an electoral majority made a similarly right decision back in 2016, a fact for which I am forever grateful). I have to concede if he cracked down on the FBI that would score some serious points. Of course I don't think for a second that's going to be the outcome of this. It is pretty much the only thing on that list I would personally consider positive, but I can understand how you guys would like that other stuff. The radical decline in the credibility of the FBI and Justice department in the eyes of conservatives is pretty huge imo. They were practically untouchable prior to Trump, you and xDaunt being some of their most fervent defenders. Now you guys talk about them as if they are executing a massive criminal conspiracy. That's something conservatives/Republicans would have rejected outright during the Bush administration. Turns out they've always been criminal dirtbags, even back when many people on the right thought they were beyond reproach. I've never been a fan of the FBI or any other law enforcement in general for its own sake. What I am a huge proponent of is law and order. To the extent that the FBI or any other agency breaks the law or abuses its authority, it should burn like anyone else.
Fair enough, though I'm pretty sure I've seen both of you cite their homocide numbers uncritically and have both been extremely skeptical of systemic problems resulting in the massive violations of people's constitutional rights, disproportionately POC particularly Black.
Stop and Frisk in New York comes to mind.
EDIT: (I could be misremembering all of that so you guys can clarify if you like)
You think any of them (law enforcement agencies) aren't corrupted beyond saving? If not which ones and what leaders are you looking at?
EDIT: I take that back. Law enforcement and other public officials should burn worse when they break the law in their official capacities due to their abuse of the public trust.
I think I just kinda presumed that anyway. I think it's clear they don't and I'm not sure you see that as big of a problem as I do?
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Facebook will no longer send employees to work at the offices of political campaigns during elections, the company has announced.
The social network used to offer dedicated staff to political campaigns to help them develop their online advertising campaigns.
Donald Trump's digital director for the 2016 presidential election has said Facebook's assistance helped him win.
Facebook said rival Hillary Clinton was offered the same support, but declined.
Google and Twitter also offer specialised advice to political campaigns. They have not indicated that they will end the practice.
Facebook said it would instead offer free advertising advice to all political parties through its website.
However, campaigns will still be able to get support online and the company did not rule out holding meetings with politicians.
www.bbc.com
This sounds mostly like just offering worse customer/employee service to political campaigns than they did before rather than any sort of disentanglement.
Doesn't sound like anything is fundamentally changing about the relationships between campaigns and digital platforms/services.
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On September 21 2018 22:48 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2018 22:43 xDaunt wrote:On September 21 2018 17:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 21 2018 16:20 Danglars wrote:
If Trump can pull off some reforms, even if it's only from Congress being so shocked at how the FBI, Justice Department, and Intelligence Agencies behaved that they're forced to pass legislation, the faults will pale by comparison.
The way the FBI was used in the tail end of the Obama administration was a disgrace. The federal government does not have the right to wiretap its citizens, but obviously the protocols were evaded and post-hoc justified. Furthermore, the fact that this happened in the context of a Democratic Presidential campaign coordinating with a Democratic Presidential Administration through Steele/Ohr to nail a Republican campaign and presidency is just insult to injury. That's all without getting into the radical deviancy of figures like Comey and McCabe and Strzok. If Trump manages to get to the bottom of this and correct the record, he's practically a Byronic hero. He breaks stifling regs, finally has sane Israeli-American and Palestinian-American relations, good UN ambassador, tax cuts, judicial appointees, and that will all just be gravy.
It doesn't make him any less deserving of the denunciations that frequently are accurate. I see a lot of people like GH who list out the angles in the hopes of arriving at "How could he ever be anything but 'utterly unacceptable.' The national government's in kind of a bad state, and it's not because of golf games and tweeting. The unelected half is up in arms against the elected half, and will not cede power for their own protection and a perverse perception of the good of the country. We can afford to put all that junk on the back burner (and thankfully an electoral majority made a similarly right decision back in 2016, a fact for which I am forever grateful). I have to concede if he cracked down on the FBI that would score some serious points. Of course I don't think for a second that's going to be the outcome of this. It is pretty much the only thing on that list I would personally consider positive, but I can understand how you guys would like that other stuff. The radical decline in the credibility of the FBI and Justice department in the eyes of conservatives is pretty huge imo. They were practically untouchable prior to Trump, you and xDaunt being some of their most fervent defenders. Now you guys talk about them as if they are executing a massive criminal conspiracy. That's something conservatives/Republicans would have rejected outright during the Bush administration. Turns out they've always been criminal dirtbags, even back when many people on the right thought they were beyond reproach. I've never been a fan of the FBI or any other law enforcement in general for its own sake. What I am a huge proponent of is law and order. To the extent that the FBI or any other agency breaks the law or abuses its authority, it should burn like anyone else. Fair enough, though I'm pretty sure I've seen both of you cite their homocide numbers uncritically and have both been extremely skeptical of systemic problems resulting in the massive violations of people's constitutional rights, disproportionately POC particularly Black. Stop and Frisk in New York comes to mind. EDIT: (I could be misremembering all of that so you guys can clarify if you like) You think any of them (law enforcement agencies) aren't corrupted beyond saving? If not which ones and what leaders are you looking at? Show nested quote +EDIT: I take that back. Law enforcement and other public officials should burn worse when they break the law in their official capacities due to their abuse of the public trust. I think I just kinda presumed that anyway. I think it's clear they don't and I'm not sure you see that as big of a problem as I do?
You and I differ on two key points. First, I don't start with the presumption that all law enforcement agencies are irredeemably corrupt. Most law enforcement is good. Even with all of the shade that I have thrown on the FBI recently, really my criticisms are directed at the top brass as opposed to the regular officers. Second, and perhaps more importantly, I'm not willing to give the criminal a pass just because law enforcement may be somewhat out of line. The need for law enforcement is a reaction to the existence of the criminal. Eliminate the criminal, and suddenly law enforcement is less necessary. This is why I am critical of communities and/or peoples that produce a lot of criminals.
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On September 22 2018 00:43 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2018 22:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 21 2018 22:43 xDaunt wrote:On September 21 2018 17:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 21 2018 16:20 Danglars wrote:
If Trump can pull off some reforms, even if it's only from Congress being so shocked at how the FBI, Justice Department, and Intelligence Agencies behaved that they're forced to pass legislation, the faults will pale by comparison.
The way the FBI was used in the tail end of the Obama administration was a disgrace. The federal government does not have the right to wiretap its citizens, but obviously the protocols were evaded and post-hoc justified. Furthermore, the fact that this happened in the context of a Democratic Presidential campaign coordinating with a Democratic Presidential Administration through Steele/Ohr to nail a Republican campaign and presidency is just insult to injury. That's all without getting into the radical deviancy of figures like Comey and McCabe and Strzok. If Trump manages to get to the bottom of this and correct the record, he's practically a Byronic hero. He breaks stifling regs, finally has sane Israeli-American and Palestinian-American relations, good UN ambassador, tax cuts, judicial appointees, and that will all just be gravy.
It doesn't make him any less deserving of the denunciations that frequently are accurate. I see a lot of people like GH who list out the angles in the hopes of arriving at "How could he ever be anything but 'utterly unacceptable.' The national government's in kind of a bad state, and it's not because of golf games and tweeting. The unelected half is up in arms against the elected half, and will not cede power for their own protection and a perverse perception of the good of the country. We can afford to put all that junk on the back burner (and thankfully an electoral majority made a similarly right decision back in 2016, a fact for which I am forever grateful). I have to concede if he cracked down on the FBI that would score some serious points. Of course I don't think for a second that's going to be the outcome of this. It is pretty much the only thing on that list I would personally consider positive, but I can understand how you guys would like that other stuff. The radical decline in the credibility of the FBI and Justice department in the eyes of conservatives is pretty huge imo. They were practically untouchable prior to Trump, you and xDaunt being some of their most fervent defenders. Now you guys talk about them as if they are executing a massive criminal conspiracy. That's something conservatives/Republicans would have rejected outright during the Bush administration. Turns out they've always been criminal dirtbags, even back when many people on the right thought they were beyond reproach. I've never been a fan of the FBI or any other law enforcement in general for its own sake. What I am a huge proponent of is law and order. To the extent that the FBI or any other agency breaks the law or abuses its authority, it should burn like anyone else. Fair enough, though I'm pretty sure I've seen both of you cite their homocide numbers uncritically and have both been extremely skeptical of systemic problems resulting in the massive violations of people's constitutional rights, disproportionately POC particularly Black. Stop and Frisk in New York comes to mind. EDIT: (I could be misremembering all of that so you guys can clarify if you like) You think any of them (law enforcement agencies) aren't corrupted beyond saving? If not which ones and what leaders are you looking at? EDIT: I take that back. Law enforcement and other public officials should burn worse when they break the law in their official capacities due to their abuse of the public trust. I think I just kinda presumed that anyway. I think it's clear they don't and I'm not sure you see that as big of a problem as I do? You and I differ on two key points. First, I don't start with the presumption that all law enforcement agencies are irredeemably corrupt. Most law enforcement is good. Even with all of the shade that I have thrown on the FBI recently, really my criticisms are directed at the top brass as opposed to the regular officers. Second, and perhaps more importantly, I'm not willing to give the criminal a pass just because law enforcement may be somewhat out of line. The need for law enforcement is a reaction to the existence of the criminal. Eliminate the criminal, and suddenly law enforcement is less necessary. This is why I am critical of communities and/or peoples that produce a lot of criminals.
Do you think law enforcement from local PD's to the FBI are adequately held to account for their mistakes and crimes?
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On September 22 2018 00:48 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2018 00:43 xDaunt wrote:On September 21 2018 22:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 21 2018 22:43 xDaunt wrote:On September 21 2018 17:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 21 2018 16:20 Danglars wrote:
If Trump can pull off some reforms, even if it's only from Congress being so shocked at how the FBI, Justice Department, and Intelligence Agencies behaved that they're forced to pass legislation, the faults will pale by comparison.
The way the FBI was used in the tail end of the Obama administration was a disgrace. The federal government does not have the right to wiretap its citizens, but obviously the protocols were evaded and post-hoc justified. Furthermore, the fact that this happened in the context of a Democratic Presidential campaign coordinating with a Democratic Presidential Administration through Steele/Ohr to nail a Republican campaign and presidency is just insult to injury. That's all without getting into the radical deviancy of figures like Comey and McCabe and Strzok. If Trump manages to get to the bottom of this and correct the record, he's practically a Byronic hero. He breaks stifling regs, finally has sane Israeli-American and Palestinian-American relations, good UN ambassador, tax cuts, judicial appointees, and that will all just be gravy.
It doesn't make him any less deserving of the denunciations that frequently are accurate. I see a lot of people like GH who list out the angles in the hopes of arriving at "How could he ever be anything but 'utterly unacceptable.' The national government's in kind of a bad state, and it's not because of golf games and tweeting. The unelected half is up in arms against the elected half, and will not cede power for their own protection and a perverse perception of the good of the country. We can afford to put all that junk on the back burner (and thankfully an electoral majority made a similarly right decision back in 2016, a fact for which I am forever grateful). I have to concede if he cracked down on the FBI that would score some serious points. Of course I don't think for a second that's going to be the outcome of this. It is pretty much the only thing on that list I would personally consider positive, but I can understand how you guys would like that other stuff. The radical decline in the credibility of the FBI and Justice department in the eyes of conservatives is pretty huge imo. They were practically untouchable prior to Trump, you and xDaunt being some of their most fervent defenders. Now you guys talk about them as if they are executing a massive criminal conspiracy. That's something conservatives/Republicans would have rejected outright during the Bush administration. Turns out they've always been criminal dirtbags, even back when many people on the right thought they were beyond reproach. I've never been a fan of the FBI or any other law enforcement in general for its own sake. What I am a huge proponent of is law and order. To the extent that the FBI or any other agency breaks the law or abuses its authority, it should burn like anyone else. Fair enough, though I'm pretty sure I've seen both of you cite their homocide numbers uncritically and have both been extremely skeptical of systemic problems resulting in the massive violations of people's constitutional rights, disproportionately POC particularly Black. Stop and Frisk in New York comes to mind. EDIT: (I could be misremembering all of that so you guys can clarify if you like) You think any of them (law enforcement agencies) aren't corrupted beyond saving? If not which ones and what leaders are you looking at? EDIT: I take that back. Law enforcement and other public officials should burn worse when they break the law in their official capacities due to their abuse of the public trust. I think I just kinda presumed that anyway. I think it's clear they don't and I'm not sure you see that as big of a problem as I do? You and I differ on two key points. First, I don't start with the presumption that all law enforcement agencies are irredeemably corrupt. Most law enforcement is good. Even with all of the shade that I have thrown on the FBI recently, really my criticisms are directed at the top brass as opposed to the regular officers. Second, and perhaps more importantly, I'm not willing to give the criminal a pass just because law enforcement may be somewhat out of line. The need for law enforcement is a reaction to the existence of the criminal. Eliminate the criminal, and suddenly law enforcement is less necessary. This is why I am critical of communities and/or peoples that produce a lot of criminals. Do you think law enforcement from local PD's to the FBI are adequately held to account for their mistakes and crimes?
In a general sense, probably not.
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On September 22 2018 00:58 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2018 00:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2018 00:43 xDaunt wrote:On September 21 2018 22:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 21 2018 22:43 xDaunt wrote:On September 21 2018 17:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 21 2018 16:20 Danglars wrote:
If Trump can pull off some reforms, even if it's only from Congress being so shocked at how the FBI, Justice Department, and Intelligence Agencies behaved that they're forced to pass legislation, the faults will pale by comparison.
The way the FBI was used in the tail end of the Obama administration was a disgrace. The federal government does not have the right to wiretap its citizens, but obviously the protocols were evaded and post-hoc justified. Furthermore, the fact that this happened in the context of a Democratic Presidential campaign coordinating with a Democratic Presidential Administration through Steele/Ohr to nail a Republican campaign and presidency is just insult to injury. That's all without getting into the radical deviancy of figures like Comey and McCabe and Strzok. If Trump manages to get to the bottom of this and correct the record, he's practically a Byronic hero. He breaks stifling regs, finally has sane Israeli-American and Palestinian-American relations, good UN ambassador, tax cuts, judicial appointees, and that will all just be gravy.
It doesn't make him any less deserving of the denunciations that frequently are accurate. I see a lot of people like GH who list out the angles in the hopes of arriving at "How could he ever be anything but 'utterly unacceptable.' The national government's in kind of a bad state, and it's not because of golf games and tweeting. The unelected half is up in arms against the elected half, and will not cede power for their own protection and a perverse perception of the good of the country. We can afford to put all that junk on the back burner (and thankfully an electoral majority made a similarly right decision back in 2016, a fact for which I am forever grateful). I have to concede if he cracked down on the FBI that would score some serious points. Of course I don't think for a second that's going to be the outcome of this. It is pretty much the only thing on that list I would personally consider positive, but I can understand how you guys would like that other stuff. The radical decline in the credibility of the FBI and Justice department in the eyes of conservatives is pretty huge imo. They were practically untouchable prior to Trump, you and xDaunt being some of their most fervent defenders. Now you guys talk about them as if they are executing a massive criminal conspiracy. That's something conservatives/Republicans would have rejected outright during the Bush administration. Turns out they've always been criminal dirtbags, even back when many people on the right thought they were beyond reproach. I've never been a fan of the FBI or any other law enforcement in general for its own sake. What I am a huge proponent of is law and order. To the extent that the FBI or any other agency breaks the law or abuses its authority, it should burn like anyone else. Fair enough, though I'm pretty sure I've seen both of you cite their homocide numbers uncritically and have both been extremely skeptical of systemic problems resulting in the massive violations of people's constitutional rights, disproportionately POC particularly Black. Stop and Frisk in New York comes to mind. EDIT: (I could be misremembering all of that so you guys can clarify if you like) You think any of them (law enforcement agencies) aren't corrupted beyond saving? If not which ones and what leaders are you looking at? EDIT: I take that back. Law enforcement and other public officials should burn worse when they break the law in their official capacities due to their abuse of the public trust. I think I just kinda presumed that anyway. I think it's clear they don't and I'm not sure you see that as big of a problem as I do? You and I differ on two key points. First, I don't start with the presumption that all law enforcement agencies are irredeemably corrupt. Most law enforcement is good. Even with all of the shade that I have thrown on the FBI recently, really my criticisms are directed at the top brass as opposed to the regular officers. Second, and perhaps more importantly, I'm not willing to give the criminal a pass just because law enforcement may be somewhat out of line. The need for law enforcement is a reaction to the existence of the criminal. Eliminate the criminal, and suddenly law enforcement is less necessary. This is why I am critical of communities and/or peoples that produce a lot of criminals. Do you think law enforcement from local PD's to the FBI are adequately held to account for their mistakes and crimes? In a general sense, probably not.
That sounds extremely problematic. Having law enforcement from local PD's to the FBI not adequately being held to account for mistakes and crimes is about the worst thing that can happen to such groups.
How can anyone trust them to hold others to account when they aren't?
Meanwhile Florida can strip your right to vote for life for stealing a TV.
Law enforcement HAS to be held to a higher standard (I think we agree on that) and they aren't even being treated as strictly as a Black guy in Florida.
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On September 22 2018 01:01 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2018 00:58 xDaunt wrote:On September 22 2018 00:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2018 00:43 xDaunt wrote:On September 21 2018 22:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 21 2018 22:43 xDaunt wrote:On September 21 2018 17:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 21 2018 16:20 Danglars wrote:
If Trump can pull off some reforms, even if it's only from Congress being so shocked at how the FBI, Justice Department, and Intelligence Agencies behaved that they're forced to pass legislation, the faults will pale by comparison.
The way the FBI was used in the tail end of the Obama administration was a disgrace. The federal government does not have the right to wiretap its citizens, but obviously the protocols were evaded and post-hoc justified. Furthermore, the fact that this happened in the context of a Democratic Presidential campaign coordinating with a Democratic Presidential Administration through Steele/Ohr to nail a Republican campaign and presidency is just insult to injury. That's all without getting into the radical deviancy of figures like Comey and McCabe and Strzok. If Trump manages to get to the bottom of this and correct the record, he's practically a Byronic hero. He breaks stifling regs, finally has sane Israeli-American and Palestinian-American relations, good UN ambassador, tax cuts, judicial appointees, and that will all just be gravy.
It doesn't make him any less deserving of the denunciations that frequently are accurate. I see a lot of people like GH who list out the angles in the hopes of arriving at "How could he ever be anything but 'utterly unacceptable.' The national government's in kind of a bad state, and it's not because of golf games and tweeting. The unelected half is up in arms against the elected half, and will not cede power for their own protection and a perverse perception of the good of the country. We can afford to put all that junk on the back burner (and thankfully an electoral majority made a similarly right decision back in 2016, a fact for which I am forever grateful). I have to concede if he cracked down on the FBI that would score some serious points. Of course I don't think for a second that's going to be the outcome of this. It is pretty much the only thing on that list I would personally consider positive, but I can understand how you guys would like that other stuff. The radical decline in the credibility of the FBI and Justice department in the eyes of conservatives is pretty huge imo. They were practically untouchable prior to Trump, you and xDaunt being some of their most fervent defenders. Now you guys talk about them as if they are executing a massive criminal conspiracy. That's something conservatives/Republicans would have rejected outright during the Bush administration. Turns out they've always been criminal dirtbags, even back when many people on the right thought they were beyond reproach. I've never been a fan of the FBI or any other law enforcement in general for its own sake. What I am a huge proponent of is law and order. To the extent that the FBI or any other agency breaks the law or abuses its authority, it should burn like anyone else. Fair enough, though I'm pretty sure I've seen both of you cite their homocide numbers uncritically and have both been extremely skeptical of systemic problems resulting in the massive violations of people's constitutional rights, disproportionately POC particularly Black. Stop and Frisk in New York comes to mind. EDIT: (I could be misremembering all of that so you guys can clarify if you like) You think any of them (law enforcement agencies) aren't corrupted beyond saving? If not which ones and what leaders are you looking at? EDIT: I take that back. Law enforcement and other public officials should burn worse when they break the law in their official capacities due to their abuse of the public trust. I think I just kinda presumed that anyway. I think it's clear they don't and I'm not sure you see that as big of a problem as I do? You and I differ on two key points. First, I don't start with the presumption that all law enforcement agencies are irredeemably corrupt. Most law enforcement is good. Even with all of the shade that I have thrown on the FBI recently, really my criticisms are directed at the top brass as opposed to the regular officers. Second, and perhaps more importantly, I'm not willing to give the criminal a pass just because law enforcement may be somewhat out of line. The need for law enforcement is a reaction to the existence of the criminal. Eliminate the criminal, and suddenly law enforcement is less necessary. This is why I am critical of communities and/or peoples that produce a lot of criminals. Do you think law enforcement from local PD's to the FBI are adequately held to account for their mistakes and crimes? In a general sense, probably not. That sounds extremely problematic. Having law enforcement from local PD's to the FBI not adequately being held to account for mistakes and crimes is about the worst thing that can happen to such groups. How can anyone trust them to hold others to account when they aren't? Meanwhile Florida can strip your right to vote for life for stealing a TV. Law enforcement HAS to be held to a higher standard (I think we agree on that) and they aren't even being treated as strictly as a Black guy in Florida.
Yes, it's clearly a problem, but the real issue is how big of a problem is it? Recognizing that there are bad actors in police departments and also recognizing that authorities sometimes go out of their way to shield the bad actors from liability (I'm about to file suit on one of these cases), the question is whether the conduct in question is so pervasive so as to warrant abolition of the institutions or to otherwise call into question the validity of the entire law enforcement process. I don't think that it is so pervasive.
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This NYT article on Rosenstein is certainly a piece of work. Whoever leaked that stuff just backed over Rosenstein with a semi-truck. Given that the leak went to the NYT instead of Sara Carter or John Solomon, I highly doubt that the link came from Trump's camp.
Edit: So the memos relied upon by the NYT sources were McCabe’s memos. This means the leak came from Mueller’s team or the FBI. Smart money is on the FBI.
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Trumps people leak things to the Times all the time, Maggie Haberman said as much in a couple interviews. The White House leaks all the time.
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On September 22 2018 05:11 Plansix wrote:
Trumps people leak things to the Times all the time, Maggie Haberman said as much in a couple interviews. The White House leaks all the time.
The Trump leaks about the Russia-gate stuff and FBI wrong-doing have not been going to the NYT. This may be a change in tactics, but I think that Trump was waiting for the FISA declassification to oust Rosenstein.
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Regardless, the bottom line is that it is clear that Trump has won. The FBI and DOJ are going to take a very hard fall.
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Sure. That is the bottom line. I’m totally sure he will be able to fire Sessions and his deputy. He won’t just weakly whine about not having an attorney general some more.
Edit: also he walked back his FISA warrant declassification. It isn’t getting out there. Anyways, the investigation into Page predates most of the dumb conspiracy theory that it’s all a plot by then democrats.
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On September 22 2018 05:25 xDaunt wrote:
Regardless, the bottom line is that it is clear that Trump has won. The FBI and DOJ are going to take a very hard fall.
All the evidence suggests that the FBI/DOJ are going to fall, but he's pretty inept and could still mess things up. I have no idea why DOJ actors or McCabe are slamming Rosenstein right now, when he was such a useful blockade to Mueller's mandate and department transparency. Maybe he wasn't playing ball on obstructing the release of DOJ information that Trump demanded? Maybe he didn't think all this can be delayed and drawn out beyond the midterms and new term to stop the Congressional investigations?
As a stonewaller and maybe useful idiot that's allowed to keep his personal integrity, he seemed more fitted with the leaking crew and resistance-from-within than somebody to cast out. Or maybe this is just McCabe's contacts hoping to get revenge for his own personal ouster.
Comey memos. Now McCabe memos. What's next? Maybe Lynch memos, Rice memos, Yates memos?
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is it just me or are some of you talking about trump like hes not a total idiot? trump a byronic hero? more like the man of la mancha tilting at windmills and living in a fantasy world
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It’s deep state conspiracy theory silliness that ignores the fact that Trump is a corrupt real estate goon that thinks he is above the law.
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EPT
