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ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3188 Posts
September 20 2018 02:24 GMT
#181
On September 20 2018 11:04 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2018 09:48 ChristianS wrote:
On September 20 2018 08:33 LegalLord wrote:
On September 20 2018 04:59 ChristianS wrote:
On September 20 2018 03:24 LegalLord wrote:
On September 20 2018 00:53 ChristianS wrote:
So if it's a relationship gone sour or something, let's go find that out, huh? We could certainly ask around and find out if these guys dated in high school. What's the downside there?

Why not investigate everything ever based on nothing more than “he said, she said” then?

How many spurious accusers do you think there are that can prove they've been saying it privately for 6 years? I really don't think this will turn into the epidemic you seem to be imagining.

How many “he said, she said” investigations could you start purely on the basis of a claim being repeated after, or over the course of, years? A shitton.

That's insane. How many people do you think are out there right now for any given person in Washington, just laying the groundwork for a spurious assault claim if they get a chance? Are there half a dozen women just waiting for their shot at Mike Lee?

And what exactly do you think they're hoping to gain? If there's an investigation of Kavanaugh, and they find nothing to support the claim (and if it's false, they might even find something to disprove it), surely the confirmation goes on as planned. So what, are we just worried about wasting the FBI's time? Are we concerned about the wasted tax dollars? ...or is there not actually a very big downside to taking a bit of time and resources to determine whether candidates for the highest court in the land are guilty of the sex crimes they're accused of?

I'm sure you could find plenty of analogous situations where "they said it years ago so why would we think they're lying?" if you look. Fuck, let's investigate everything Alex Jones has ever said - who cares that he's an unreliable witness, who cares that there's no corroborating evidence, who cares that it's a waste of breath to even take it seriously, are we concerned about wasting the FBI's time or wasted tax dollars? Some very powerful and important people are implicated in his assertions and he will back them if you ask again, so let's get on that wild goose chase. And if that example seems a little too extreme for you, then dial it to whatever level you choose and you will certainly be able to draw up plenty of baseless bullshit based on nothing more than that someone said something once and was willing to testify, wait never mind, that it was so.

It's a waste of breath and a crock of shit that shouldn't be allowed to gain traction as a political tactic. You show people that baseless claims of sexual misconduct from decades past can be used to immediately spawn a pointless investigation and you're going to see that happen many more times. On the part of the senator who pushed this story, it was a blatant attempt to delay the nomination until the primaries for some form or other of political gain. On the part of the witness, who the fuck knows, but her story sure as hell isn't holding up to scrutiny. But hey, it's politically expedient, so let's just pretend it's credible anyways!

She's claimed it for years, she can prove she's claimed it for years, and near as I can tell she did actually go to school with him. Add that she has no known history of making up shit about public officials and the comparison to Alex Jones is obviously bullshit. Do you actually think the average public official has multiple people from their school/town that have been claiming they were sexually assaulted by them for years?
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 20 2018 02:29 GMT
#182
1. Kavanaugh went to an all boys school.
2. Repeating a flawed story for years doesn't make the flawed story any less flawed.
3. She has zero corroborating evidence to overcome the flaws in her story.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23188 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-09-20 13:51:52
September 20 2018 06:58 GMT
#183
Both parties in the US would rather have more bombs than educate our children, provide healthcare, or even just basic child care



Democrat or Republican when they say we can't afford to take care of our population, what they are actually saying is that we want bombs more than those things.

EDIT: I just have to say about a convo in the other thread, it's pretty ridiculous to pretend to be empathetic with suffering Venezuelans when it's US policy and private corporations that are drivers of food shortages and many other issues going on there.

Also anyone who thinks people can't criticize Maduro in Venezuela would have to be unaware of a lot of domestic criticism of Maduro and the government in general.

Helps if you speak Spanish, but this guy is a pretty popular critic for context:



I'm told the microsoft translation on this is close enough.

Maduro is responsible for the biggest economic and social crisis that has faced #Venezuela in the last 100 years. It destroyed the bolivar and the quality of life of the whole population. We're going to defeat this inept and irresponsible #SiVotasSeVa president



For a little comparison:

ANTI-TRUMP J20 PROTESTERS FACING 60 YEARS IN JAIL

“In all but a handful of cases, the prosecution isn't even arguing the individuals on trial committed any property damage,” Chip Gibbons, policy and legislative counsel for Defending Rights & Dissent, told Newsweek. He is advocating on behalf of the defendants that continue to await trial.

“Instead, they are trying to transform a publicly advertised, First Amendment-protected march into a criminal conspiracy and argue that anyone present is collectively liable for any unlawful acts that may have occurred,” he said.


www.newsweek.com
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 20 2018 13:56 GMT
#184
How in the world can you blame the US for the problems in Venezuela when the Venezuelan government enacted policies that destroyed the market economy? What Venezuela has done has always led to disaster.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23188 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-09-20 14:20:16
September 20 2018 14:09 GMT
#185
On September 20 2018 22:56 xDaunt wrote:
How in the world can you blame the US for the problems in Venezuela when the Venezuelan government enacted policies that destroyed the market economy? What Venezuela has done has always led to disaster.


There's a pretty good explanation in the other thread that I'll just borrow.

It also doesn't apply to the situation because the US government (especially under Trump) is clearly not well intentioned.

By the way, I found this article the other day which claims that the US and Saudis collaborated to flood the oil market in order to "crash" the Russian and Iranian economies. One of the results was the collapse of the Venezuelan economy, since 96% of its exports consists of oil.

I was reading about US-Venezuela relations and supposedly they're not quite so bad as they're sometimes claimed to be. 40% of its oil is exported to the US. And more of its population would view the US favorably than not. There wasn't anything comparable to the economic embargo against Cuba. I would speculate this is related to oil imports and the danger of disrupting this relationship. Venezuela has the world's largest proven oil reserves.

But the relationship has drastically worsened since the Maduro presidency. There have been new sanctions, and there has been talk of invasion. John Bolton joined the administration and he is an advocate of some sort of regime change. And the US has become drastically less dependent on Venezuelan oil imports.


www.teamliquid.net

Additionally smuggling between Columbia and Venezuela and the US//aligned businesses illegally selling goods onto the black market.

Smuggling is a way of life in the Colombian border town of Cúcuta—and for decades, that’s meant drugs. But in recent years it’s ordinary goods like gasoline or oranges or diapers that make their way from Venezuela to Colombia. The side of the road into Cúcuta is dotted with illegal gasoline vendors, while the shelves of the local stores are stocked with products labeled “Produced for the Venezuelan market.”


time.com


Rather than act in a way that would aid people, every action we've taken (including I guess meeting with opposition planning a violent coup) has been to directly or indirectly lower the quality of life of Venezuelans.

Not just incidentally either, it's their stated goal, to foment further opposition to the government.

"Destroying the market economy"

Let's look at how this breaks down.

1. The government sets a price control limiting the cost for consumers
2. Exploitative criminal corporations note they can sell on the black market for more
3. Unable to pay the exploitative black market price government stores shelves are less stocked
4. More criminals continue to exploit this situation including smuggling much needed food out of the country
5. Locals are forced to buy the black market goods, further exacerbating the problem.
6. The US leads a cadre of countries exerting more economic pressures making the problem even worse and multiplying the suffering exponentially.

Rather than blame the criminals, and the exploitative actors, you want to blame the people who literally have their lives on the line if they can't keep the citizens happy instead of the criminals who are making money hand over fist selling food people desperately need on the black market to make a little extra pocket change for their new yacht or supercar.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 20 2018 14:45 GMT
#186
That Venezuela was so harmed by the collapse of the oil market is a sign of just how bad the Chavez/Maduro economic policies were. Compare Venezuela to a country like Chile. Chile has no natural resources on the scale of Venezuela. Yet Chile's economy has been steadily growing and thriving because the government has loosened up market regulations. There's literally no good reason for Venezuela to perform worse than Chile given all of its inherent advantages. Centralized economic planning on the scale of what Venezuela has been doing never works and always leads to disaster.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23188 Posts
September 20 2018 14:59 GMT
#187
On September 20 2018 23:45 xDaunt wrote:
That Venezuela was so harmed by the collapse of the oil market is a sign of just how bad the Chavez/Maduro economic policies were. Compare Venezuela to a country like Chile. Chile has no natural resources on the scale of Venezuela. Yet Chile's economy has been steadily growing and thriving because the government has loosened up market regulations. There's literally no good reason for Venezuela to perform worse than Chile given all of its inherent advantages. Centralized economic planning on the scale of what Venezuela has been doing never works and always leads to disaster.


It's true that if the US comes in assassinates your leader and is allowed to turn your country into a vassal state that there are economic benefits for some people. But Chile is another story for a variety of reasons. It's certainly true that Venezuala could have done more to diversify their economy though.

Of course the difference in treatment from the US between Saudi Arabia and Venezuela has a lot to do with it too.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 20 2018 15:38 GMT
#188
Any number of countries have had momentously shitty things happen to them from internal or external sources. One thing that has remained reliably constant over the long run, however, is that centralized economies fail whereas market-based economies thrive. The broad-based dictation of wages and production always leads to ruin.

As kind of a shitpost aside, you just know that the liberal press is besides-themselves-upset that Florence did not turn into another Katrina and that Trump's administration has handled the hurricane remarkably well.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-09-20 15:50:10
September 20 2018 15:49 GMT
#189
The Ford / Kavanaugh attempted rape allegations may about to become hilarious. Apparently someone found Ford's yearbook from high school and published it. Let's just say that you can't make this shit up: Source.

EDIT: I bet GH is going to have a field day with this one.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23188 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-09-20 16:00:24
September 20 2018 15:52 GMT
#190
On September 21 2018 00:38 xDaunt wrote:
Any number of countries have had momentously shitty things happen to them from internal or external sources. One thing that has remained reliably constant over the long run, however, is that centralized economies fail whereas market-based economies thrive. The broad-based dictation of wages and production always leads to ruin.

As kind of a shitpost aside, you just know that the liberal press is besides-themselves-upset that Florence did not turn into another Katrina and that Trump's administration has handled the hurricane remarkably well.


Market economies fail too. What you'll find even more consistently is that opposition to US domination always results in (as crippling as we can muster) economic sanctions and bullying from the international community.

Those policies cause human suffering and death, it just conveniently always places solely at the feet of those opposing the US rather than on the sanctions literally intended to cause/exacerbate the suffering they blame the government for.

That said at least we're not arguing that people can't criticize the government or that US policy/criminal corporations (US and otherwise) aren't at minimum exacerbating the issues and causing more human suffering.

It's that kind of uninformed nonsense I felt had to be addressed.
____________________________________________________

Trump already had his Katrina, it's called Puerto Rico.

___________________________________

All I can say about the yearbook is that privilege is one hell of a drug.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 20 2018 16:05 GMT
#191
Puerto Rico isn't on Trump. That's on Puerto Rico and its own shitty governance.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23188 Posts
September 20 2018 16:07 GMT
#192
On September 21 2018 01:05 xDaunt wrote:
Puerto Rico isn't on Trump. That's on Puerto Rico and its own shitty governance.


Surely they share some blame as Louisiana did for Katrina, but thinking the feds did a good job just doesn't jive with the reality on the ground in either situation.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-09-20 16:16:25
September 20 2018 16:13 GMT
#193
Well, I'll say this about Blasey Ford's story. We definitely have a pretty good explanation for why she doesn't remember any of the salient details: she was drunk off her ass all of the time. Looks like my instincts were pretty good.
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3188 Posts
September 20 2018 17:12 GMT
#194
On September 21 2018 00:49 xDaunt wrote:
The Ford / Kavanaugh attempted rape allegations may about to become hilarious. Apparently someone found Ford's yearbook from high school and published it. Let's just say that you can't make this shit up: Source.

EDIT: I bet GH is going to have a field day with this one.

I skimmed the blog you linked about the yearbook. Am I missing something? Is this supposed to disprove her claims somehow? It seemed to confirm that the girls there partied with the boys from Kavanaugh's school, and depicted exactly the kind of party culture where events like the ones she describes could plausibly occur, but otherwise very little seemed to even concern Ford directly. She was pictured attending a party where the caption suggested people played drinking games and passed out, which is neither here nor there. Then it went off for a while on how the kids/faculty were racist, which is probably true but I'm not sure what it has to do with anything.

Did I miss something? Honest question, I was skimming pretty quickly. Because otherwise dragging out old yearbooks and highlighting the references to drinking and promiscuity looks a lot like an attempt at saying "look what an alcoholic slut she was, she must be lying." Which is a horrific yet predictable response to a woman claiming she was sexually assaulted.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-09-20 17:34:23
September 20 2018 17:34 GMT
#195
Who would have thought that a possible high school assault by a middle aged judge, set against a background of teenaged drinking and hijinx, would become so important. Especially after Trump, Roy Moore, etc.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 20 2018 17:40 GMT
#196
On September 21 2018 02:34 IgnE wrote:
Who would have thought that a possible high school assault by a middle aged judge, set against a background of teenaged drinking and hijinx, would become so important. Especially after Trump, Roy Moore, etc.

Politics are a bitch. Remember, Justice Thomas suffered his "high tech lynching" as a result of allegedly making a joke about a pube on a coke can. Drunken teenage sex parties at least register on the Richter scale!
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 20 2018 17:43 GMT
#197
On September 21 2018 02:12 ChristianS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2018 00:49 xDaunt wrote:
The Ford / Kavanaugh attempted rape allegations may about to become hilarious. Apparently someone found Ford's yearbook from high school and published it. Let's just say that you can't make this shit up: Source.

EDIT: I bet GH is going to have a field day with this one.

I skimmed the blog you linked about the yearbook. Am I missing something? Is this supposed to disprove her claims somehow? It seemed to confirm that the girls there partied with the boys from Kavanaugh's school, and depicted exactly the kind of party culture where events like the ones she describes could plausibly occur, but otherwise very little seemed to even concern Ford directly. She was pictured attending a party where the caption suggested people played drinking games and passed out, which is neither here nor there. Then it went off for a while on how the kids/faculty were racist, which is probably true but I'm not sure what it has to do with anything.

Did I miss something? Honest question, I was skimming pretty quickly. Because otherwise dragging out old yearbooks and highlighting the references to drinking and promiscuity looks a lot like an attempt at saying "look what an alcoholic slut she was, she must be lying." Which is a horrific yet predictable response to a woman claiming she was sexually assaulted.

The yearbook shows that the school that Ford went to was notorious for the girls engaging in drunken (as in black out drunk) sex parties and other shenanigans. Combine this fact with what we know about Ford's story (and the gaps therein), and it suddenly becomes quite likely that the reason Ford can't remember anything is that she was drunk at the time, which necessarily calls into question the accuracy and credibility of everything that she has said about what happened.
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11497 Posts
September 20 2018 17:48 GMT
#198
So basically, it is character assassination.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 20 2018 17:50 GMT
#199
On September 21 2018 02:48 Simberto wrote:
So basically, it is character assassination.

Do you have a plausible, alternative explanation for why Ford cannot remember when or where the alleged assault occurred?
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3188 Posts
September 20 2018 18:28 GMT
#200
On September 21 2018 02:43 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2018 02:12 ChristianS wrote:
On September 21 2018 00:49 xDaunt wrote:
The Ford / Kavanaugh attempted rape allegations may about to become hilarious. Apparently someone found Ford's yearbook from high school and published it. Let's just say that you can't make this shit up: Source.

EDIT: I bet GH is going to have a field day with this one.

I skimmed the blog you linked about the yearbook. Am I missing something? Is this supposed to disprove her claims somehow? It seemed to confirm that the girls there partied with the boys from Kavanaugh's school, and depicted exactly the kind of party culture where events like the ones she describes could plausibly occur, but otherwise very little seemed to even concern Ford directly. She was pictured attending a party where the caption suggested people played drinking games and passed out, which is neither here nor there. Then it went off for a while on how the kids/faculty were racist, which is probably true but I'm not sure what it has to do with anything.

Did I miss something? Honest question, I was skimming pretty quickly. Because otherwise dragging out old yearbooks and highlighting the references to drinking and promiscuity looks a lot like an attempt at saying "look what an alcoholic slut she was, she must be lying." Which is a horrific yet predictable response to a woman claiming she was sexually assaulted.

The yearbook shows that the school that Ford went to was notorious for the girls engaging in drunken (as in black out drunk) sex parties and other shenanigans. Combine this fact with what we know about Ford's story (and the gaps therein), and it suddenly becomes quite likely that the reason Ford can't remember anything is that she was drunk at the time, which necessarily calls into question the accuracy and credibility of everything that she has said about what happened.

Sure enough, we're going with "She was an alcoholic slut, therefore she must be lying." And our evidence is:
1) lots of people at her school seemed to drink and have sex, according to the yearbook, so she probably did too.
2) there's a picture of her at a party where people were drinking.

I'm torn, because on the one hand I wanna point out what shoddy evidence that is and how fucked up it is that (alleged) sexual assault victims consistently have to put up with this shit whenever they speak out. But I worry that in doing so, I'd be implicitly ceding the point that if she drank and had sex in high school, that'd mean the allegations aren't worth considering, which is also bullshit. But like I said, horrific yet predictable.

As for her lack of recollection about the date, the obvious explanation is "it was almost 40 years ago," but it's also worth noting she might have some idea, but doesn't want to give her best guess in case she's proven wrong on some detail and people use that to try to discredit her whole claim. It's similar to why people give so many "I do not recall"'s in legal testimony.

Also worth noting that she might have experienced something really traumatic that she's tried to forget, but I think that degree of empathizing with victims might be a bit advanced for the current discussion.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
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