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I know I'm going to get flamed but hear me out before you do. To keep it short, other eSports are unbanning previously banned players who were convicted of match fixing and throwing games. CS:GO tournament organizers have been slowly unbanning previous known match fixers. Only tournament organizers that haven't unbanned these players appear to be Faceit, ELeague, and Valve themselves.
Now keep in mind, unbanning them doesn't mean match fixing is acceptable. These players have been banned for at least a year or two now (only started following CS:GO recently) and they understand the mistake they made, the consequences it had on themselves, and on the sport itself. Going forward, these e-sports organizations are making it clear that if you match fix, harsher punishments will occur compared to before. Before, these punishments seem to be ambiguous and not set in stone. But now, they are well defined.
Everyone makes mistakes. What matters is learning from them. As the saying goes: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
I found this in the CS:GO Dreamhack unban matchfixers thread and this is their stance:
For second and subsequent offences, participants should expect far harsher sanctions and, in the cases of (a) (cheating) and (b) (Match-Fixing/betting fraud) above, in all likelihood, a lifetime ban from esports. Alongside this, all previously issued indefinite lifetime bans issued prior to February 15th, 2015 have been lifted. This applies to all DreamHack’s large scale CS:GO tournaments to begin with, primarily DreamHack ASTRO Open and DreamHack Masters. These sanctions and updates do not apply for publisher sponsored competitions, in which sanctions in place by a publisher such as Valve will supersede such sanctions.
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![[image loading]](https://m.popkey.co/a818d6/4Vvbx.gif)
User was warned for this post
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Just there to voice some clear agreement.
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Why does other eSports unbanning match-fixers mean Starcraft should do it?
Besides it doesn't fit with Starcraft's reality. Match-fixers have done so much damage to Starcraft (and are perceived to have done that damage and more) that unbanning them would have a disastrous effect on the scene and fan base.
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Hi Life's fan boy.
Korean community hates/don't like Life now ( I don't remember where but there is a thread about that ), so, sorry.
Cheating is historically dramatic for starcraft scene, not for the counter strike one, you can't compare.
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Well most matchfixing in sc2 happens in Korea and the Korean scene will definitely think very different about this.
There is no chance that players like Life and co will be allowed to compete in Korea again. I also think Blizzard will not unban them and there are really no big third party tournaments left in sc2 that could allow matchfixers to play.
It would probably have to start with online tournaments allowing them back first, but they risk offending the rest of the Korean scene by unbanning matchfixers.
So basically the opinion of the foreign scene about this does not really matter and Korea will not change their stance. I'm not even gonna give my opinion on whether they should be unbanned or not, we simply can't make that decision.
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Match-fixers helped almost kill the Starcraft scene in Korea. Fuck them and no.
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On September 08 2017 02:28 Valikyr wrote:
Match-fixers helped almost kill the Starcraft scene in Korea. Fuck them and no.
This...
Why the hell would you even argue for unbanning them?!
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Because someone else unbanned them is not a reason for SC2 to unban them.
Also,
For second and subsequent offences, participants should expect far harsher sanctions
So you're expected multiple offenses, even after the second round?
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I'm tired of reading these really poor arguments.
"Everyone makes mistakes"
"Everyone deserves second chances"
Yeah they can make those amends outside of esports. They can go have their second chance by getting another job and not committing fraud there.
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Given that matchfixing in korea had severe legal ramifications for the players, I don't think the same thing would apply.
As much as I would love to see Life back again it's not happening
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I don't think that unbanning the few matchfixers would really improve the professional scene much. Life is the only one of the players I can think of that has a chance of still being decent. So basically, we're weighing bringing Life back against the potential damage to the image of SC.
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On September 08 2017 02:16 geokilla wrote:
Everyone makes mistakes. What matters is learning from them. As the saying goes: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
I can picture Hitler coming out of his bunker at the end of WWII to meet soviet troops :
"Everyone makes mistakes. What matters is learning from them. As the saying goes: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
and yeah you'll get flamed because advocating for the return of criminals into the scene they hurt is the shittiest idea since Aztec human sacrifices.
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On September 08 2017 02:54 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2017 02:16 geokilla wrote:
Everyone makes mistakes. What matters is learning from them. As the saying goes: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
I can picture Hitler coming out of his bunker at the end of WWII to meet soviet troops : "Everyone makes mistakes. What matters is learning from them. As the saying goes: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." and yeah you'll get flamed because advocating for the return of criminals into the scene they hurt is the shittiest idea since Aztec human sacrifices.
You just compared match fixers to Hitler? Really?
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On September 08 2017 02:58 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2017 02:54 JackONeill wrote:On September 08 2017 02:16 geokilla wrote:
Everyone makes mistakes. What matters is learning from them. As the saying goes: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
I can picture Hitler coming out of his bunker at the end of WWII to meet soviet troops : "Everyone makes mistakes. What matters is learning from them. As the saying goes: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." and yeah you'll get flamed because advocating for the return of criminals into the scene they hurt is the shittiest idea since Aztec human sacrifices. You just compared match fixers to Hitler? Really?
Obviously a bait thread so why not go all out?
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On September 08 2017 03:08 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2017 02:58 geokilla wrote:On September 08 2017 02:54 JackONeill wrote:On September 08 2017 02:16 geokilla wrote:
Everyone makes mistakes. What matters is learning from them. As the saying goes: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
I can picture Hitler coming out of his bunker at the end of WWII to meet soviet troops : "Everyone makes mistakes. What matters is learning from them. As the saying goes: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." and yeah you'll get flamed because advocating for the return of criminals into the scene they hurt is the shittiest idea since Aztec human sacrifices. You just compared match fixers to Hitler? Really? Obviously a bait thread so why not go all out?
I think OP is a genuine idiot tho.
User was temp banned for this post.
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If there ought to be 0 tolerance, is it a mistake that ByuN is allowed to play? Some Korean pros still hate him for it, too.
"[ByuN was] accused of match-fixing in an ESV TV Korean Weekly match against CoCa. CoCa was demoted by SlayerS and ByuN was banned from participating in tournaments by his team, Prime."
In the thread linked below are well likely all the arguments that will reappear here. For example the "almost kill the Starcraft scene in Korea" argument being shown as misleading, i.e the SBENU scandal taking place at the same time and being an incomparably bigger problem for Kespa/Proleague.
For a clearheaded perspective, I recommend NonY's take: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/closed-threads/518783-1-year-since-life-has-been-arrested?page=13#244
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8751 Posts
Is CS:GO so low on talent that they must risk asking cheaters to come play again? Seems to me like it's a popular enough game that they can ban them for life and let new players replace them. As for SC, it seems like the same situation, though the games are nowhere near as popular anymore. We don't really need to ask cheaters to start practicing and playing again to improve the scene. They caused so much trouble for the scene in the first place and a repeat would be really bad. There are a lot of talented players playing both SC2 and BW so I don't really see the need to take that risk.
From the perspective of justice, I agree with you that rehabilitation with re-entry into society as productive individuals is the goal. But the world is big enough that people who have burned bridges can go start somewhere else. These players can go do anything in the world other than play CS:GO tournaments or SC tournaments.
As the saying goes: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
I don't get why you'd say this. It's an argument against you. There's nothing these tournaments can do to stop match-fixing other than promise longer bans. There's nothing stopping the players from fooling you again. So the shame is on you for trusting them again. Look, these people don't start their path planning to match fix. They start with good intentions and they find themselves in a tempting situation and they make the wrong choice. There's really no way to know how they'll handle the situation when they find themselves in it again.
edit:
I do remember that post as I wrote this current one. I just like writing down arguments as counterpoints to what I've seen other people say without actually expressing what I'd do if it were up to me. This is a complicated topic and I find both sides pretty compelling.
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On September 08 2017 03:10 seopthi wrote:If there ought to be 0 tolerance, is it a mistake that ByuN is allowed to play? Some Korean pros still hate him for it, too. "[ByuN was] accused of match-fixing in an ESV TV Korean Weekly match against CoCa. CoCa was demoted by SlayerS and ByuN was banned from participating in tournaments by his team, Prime." In the thread linked below are well likely all the arguments that will reappear here. For example the "almost kill the Starcraft scene in Korea" argument being shown as misleading, i.e the SBENU scandal taking place at the same time and being an incomparably bigger problem for Kespa/Proleague. For a clearheaded perspective, I recommend NonY's take: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/closed-threads/518783-1-year-since-life-has-been-arrested?page=13#244
Extremely different circumstances around Life's matchfixing and Byun/Coca's. They are hardly worthy of comparison. Byun/Coca were still punished quite harshly for their game which shows 0 tolerance for any sort of matchfixing, but different offenses deserve different punishments.
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Most of these guys are kids, so giving a second chance would make sense.
On the other hand, given that their careers usually fade as they get towards 30 years old, a life ban isn't actually as harsh as it sounds.
So my point is that both decisions are understandable. Although I think it's better not to unban them as keeping them banned feeds the credibility of esports imo.
As a tangent, I think matchfixing is a more serious offence than for example doping because it fundamentally ridicules the spirit of competition.
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Someone posted a nice writeup regarding the situations of the CS players - specifically IBPs ban.
There was no precedent for match fixing or getting caught in the CS scene - and the concept of cosmetics and gambling as also new. There have been many studies that show that the known high risk of getting caught is a stronger deterrence than a severe punishment. Because there was no known risk of getting caught, the IBP (or rather most of them) went through with it. Yeah, it was shitty, and their coverup was shitty. There's no excuse to that.
However, certain individuals involved in that circumstance have spent the years after continuing to play the game, help others and make amends for their mistakes. Do all of them deserve an unban? I don't know, but I can surely vouch that Steel and Skadoodle have done nothing but continue to show love and support for the game, franchise and the community at large. I don't like the "people make mistakes" argument either, but people making amends consistently, while being repeatedly told "You aren't getting unbanned" should show something in regards to their character.
This is NOT the case for Life, BBY, etc. They all knew the risks and immense hatred for matchfixing in Korea of all places due to the immense damage that was wrought from the Savior scandals. Not only were they permanently banned, they did nothing to amend their mistakes, they did nothing to try to heal the scars they created.
So no, they should not be unbanned.
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On September 08 2017 03:20 Avexyli wrote:
I don't know, but I can surely vouch that Steel and Skadoodle have done nothing but continue to show love and support for the game, franchise and the community at large.
Bit nitpicky, but Skadoodle didn't get banned. I guess you mean Dazed?
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I agree with everyone else: Just because other eSports are unbanning match fixers doesn't mean we need to do the same. Maybe the StarCraft cheaters should go play a different eSport that doesn't have the same standards of integrity.
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BW and SC2 match fixers should remain banned.
On September 08 2017 03:09 Ej_ wrote:
I think OP is a genuine idiot tho.
proof? 1 incorrect opinion post is insufficient. if you provide no proof then you've posted an unsubstantiated personal insult.
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Germany25658 Posts
This thread did not go well.
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EPT
