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Hi guys.
I have been reading some great content on the forums/reddit and it appears a lot of people are worried about whether Protoss is too weak and/or Zerg is too strong.
While I personally do believe Protoss might be slightly too weak, I would argue that the case of PvZ only requires a very narrow spectrum of perspective and problemsolving in order to see the matchup play out better. I would think it is a mistake to blame things from Zerg from all game stages. (early/mid/lategame)
For now I think Protoss versus Terran requires more testing before an official balance determination can be made.
I believe Protoss has problems securing a third base while Zerg has a relatively easy time going "3-Hatch-before-Pool." Yet by the sound of it, people are also very concerned with the strength of Ultralisk, Lurker and Viper Parasitic Bomb. I think there are reasons to let these unit stay strong to help Zerg with the relatively weak lategame they had in HotS PvZ.
I think we need to take a step back here and focus on the aspect of the game that shows problems first; this will of course be the earlygame and mostly the Protoss ability to take a 3rd base.
The reason, I believe, Protoss not only can not go Nexus-first (like Zerg can Hatch-first safely) but also needs several gateway units or 1-2 tech units to defend a 3rd is because of the Ravager strength. I do believe it is fine that Protoss can not go Nexus-first, but Protoss should be able to go for a 3rd base without preparing immensely for Ravager timings or other timings and thus fall too far behind.
In Heart of the Swarm Protoss would use sim-city at the 3rd base to defend against Speedlings and/or Roach timings. In Legacy of the Void, however, Pylons are very threatened by the damage of Corrosive Bile. This does not only threaten the main Protoss defence, Photon Overcharge, but also limits the Protoss ability to wall off and get warpgates in time to warp in reinforcements for defence. Also Forcefields used to be a huge help in defending in HotS, this is no longer a tool.
I think the ONLY main change with respect to PvZ that should happen now is a Ravager nerf. A nerf that still allows them to be dangerous, but slightly weaker in offensive situations. There are several ways to do this.
1. Decrease the damage from Corrosive Bile to structures to 30 or 20.
This is my personal favourite. This will still allow Ravagers to use splash damage to do some reasonable damage to buildings and make the unit feel more like a support unit rather than a siege unit. They will still do 60 damage to air and ground units.
2. Make the tech requirement for Ravager Morph require lair.
The problem here is that Ravagers may / may not be required to defend certain forcefield strategies. Still it is worth a try.
3. Increase the morph time of Ravagers
I think this is a solution too, but might make reactionary play for Zerg a bit too hard, including the ability to defend sudden spontaenous timings.
4. Make Ravager armored.
I think the problem with armored Ravagers is that they may become too countered in defensive situations to say like Immortal or Adept/Voidray allin. Same could apply in TvZ.
If Ravagers were to receive a nerf, ALL other aspects of the Zerg matchup would be affected to. Protoss will be able to take a 3rd more safely, thus able to deal with Mutalisk/Ultralisk/Lurkers better. I sincerely think we should limit our perspective to the earlygame and do a relatively small and simple nerf to overall improve the entire spectrum of gameplay in the Zerg matchup, mostly versus Protoss.
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Not entirely sure about PvT but as a Z, I think ZvP is pretty terrible for Toss yeah and I know a lot of other Zergs agree. Not entirely sure how I feel about nerfing Ravagers in a specific way given how almost essential (imo) I think they are against Terran and that matchup coming across as even to me.
I think the only realistic way Toss wins in a macro is if they somehow get to Skytoss. It's weird, 2 base all ins as a toss is awk and whether or not a Toss gets a third usually dictates who won or not.
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Wait Ravegers don't require Lair/ Arent Armored???
Damn, I should have paid more attention during beta 
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It's not that Protoss is too weak. It's that Ravager is too strong.
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Russian Federation66 Posts
queen 175hp, 1 armor = unarmored, ravager 120hp, 1 armor = unarmored, viking 125 hp, 0 armor = armored. Dont know how they do it.
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I'm more pro buff then pro nerf, if a race is even in one match (P being even vs. T) and underpowered in another (P vs. Z) and if Zerg is also balanced against Terran, it makes alot more sense to buff Protoss then to nerf Zerg.
But if a nerf truly were needed, I think the first one is the best way to go, something mild, this is the very beginning and everything is OP to everyone when nobody is used to dealing with it, how many "omfg this unit/match up broken" threads do we see and then 6 months later the strategy was figured out and is then easily defended.
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I think its also the map pool. Some of the current ladder maps seem grossly zerg favored.
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On November 18 2015 14:49 Jaaaaasper wrote:
I think its also the map pool. Some of the current ladder maps seem grossly zerg favored.
I agree with this. I feel like this map pool is god awful for Protoss. Lots of huge ramps/wide open 3rd's make it hard for Protoss to secure 3 base.
I wish Blizzard had some better maps (I like them, but I am zerg  ) so we could truly know. I think a lot of Protosses aren't doing the best strategies either as they try to figure it out.
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4713 Posts
I'm appalled that after so many years Blizzard still hasn't learned that huge wide open ramps are horrible for natural expansions and quite bad for other expansions too.
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Isnt it a little early to complain about who is weak and who is strong until the pros work it out first. I think it is best to wait for a few tournaments to get played first and as some of you have mentioned the maps may need looking at
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I think it has to do mostly with ridiculous maps as well, but Protoss really got the short stick with the economy changes too.
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Watch Drogo's stream, it is very easy to defend ling/ravager timing.
Put pylons in the front of your third, your army behind, when the zerg attack use many overcharge on pylons that are not attacked.
If the zerg commit you will destroy it because you have like 5 photon overcharge and your army to defend.
If the zerg waits the end of photon overcharge then you have enough time to get your disruptors and now you can destroy the zerg army easily.
You can also go for stargate opening, 1-2 oracles to defend, scout the push and kill some ravagers, then 1 voidray will clean the zerg army because the zerg player has nothing to deal with the voidray.
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i'll blame the maps too, all of the current maps (and blizzard maps in general) are extremely wide open, with almost no chokes except for the center of ulrena.
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On November 18 2015 18:22 FireCake wrote:
Watch Drogo's stream, it is very easy to defend ling/ravager timing.
Put pylons in the front of your third, your army behind, when the zerg attack use many overcharge on pylons that are not attacked.
If the zerg commit you will destroy it because you have like 5 photon overcharge and your army to defend.
If the zerg waits the end of photon overcharge then you have enough time to get your disruptors and now you can destroy the zerg army easily.
You can also go for stargate opening, 1-2 oracles to defend, scout the push and kill some ravagers, then 1 voidray will clean the zerg army because the zerg player has nothing to deal with the voidray.
If you photon overcharge 5 pylons, it will take 11 seconds then zerg can attack again. I do not think you can get enough disruptor by 5:30 to defend with that. At best you can have one, but then you have very few units.
Even if you somehow manage to make 5+ pylons at the 3rd base that speedlings will not beforehand deny, it will delay gateways and all the pylons will be fully exposed. If you clump them it will be better versus lings but much worse versus ravagers.
Also zerg is not forced to dive, he can simply trade with the Ravagers outside of photon overcharge range. Protoss will not have units that can chase by then simply because his army value will be photon overcharge by then.
Voidrays do not do that much damage (Ravagers are not armored) and it is quite limited what oracles can do as they will not have energy to kill 8-9 ravagers from a 3 base ravager 45 drone timing.
It is possible to make enough units from gateways or immortals but it will likely delay the third base for too long (whereas 3 hatch before pool is relatively free) and even then its not just "easy" to defend it. A lategame from that perspective versus non-zerg timings will be problematic.
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Denmark6989 Posts
On November 18 2015 17:46 Destructicon wrote:
I'm appalled that after so many years Blizzard still hasn't learned that huge wide open ramps are horrible for natural expansions and quite bad for other expansions too.
The worst part of it is, that they picked this map pool for the first season of Legacy. It's so obvious that this map pool should be as standard and boring as possible, to figure out, what needs to be fixed. What needs to be buffed and nerfed.
Picking such a non-standard map pool with:
Gold bases en masse
Two ramps into your natural
Big fat ramps that can't be blocked for shit
Is such a massive mistake, that I didn't think it was possible. I actually thought the map pool was a joke at first. But no.
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On November 18 2015 18:36 TheoMikkelsen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 18:22 FireCake wrote:
Watch Drogo's stream, it is very easy to defend ling/ravager timing.
Put pylons in the front of your third, your army behind, when the zerg attack use many overcharge on pylons that are not attacked.
If the zerg commit you will destroy it because you have like 5 photon overcharge and your army to defend.
If the zerg waits the end of photon overcharge then you have enough time to get your disruptors and now you can destroy the zerg army easily.
You can also go for stargate opening, 1-2 oracles to defend, scout the push and kill some ravagers, then 1 voidray will clean the zerg army because the zerg player has nothing to deal with the voidray. If you photon overcharge 5 pylons, it will take 11 seconds then zerg can attack again. I do not think you can get enough disruptor by 5:30 to defend with that. At best you can have one, but then you have very few units. Even if you somehow manage to make 5+ pylons at the 3rd base that speedlings will not beforehand deny, it will delay gateways and all the pylons will be fully exposed. If you clump them it will be better versus lings but much worse versus ravagers. Also zerg is not forced to dive, he can simply trade with the Ravagers outside of photon overcharge range. Protoss will not have units that can chase by then simply because his army value will be photon overcharge by then. Voidrays do not do that much damage (Ravagers are not armored) and it is quite limited what oracles can do as they will not have energy to kill 8-9 ravagers from a 3 base ravager 45 drone timing. It is possible to make enough units from gateways or immortals but it will likely delay the third base for too long (whereas 3 hatch before pool is relatively free) and even then its not just "easy" to defend it. A lategame from that perspective versus non-zerg timings will be problematic.
-You must not waste photon overcharge, you need to wait that the zerg engage and then use it, if the zerg retreats he will lose many units. You should do something like using 1 photon overcharge when the zerg is in front of your bases then if he engages uses 2-3-4 more photon overcharge.
-You don't want your pylon to be clump even against lings. The goal is not to make a perfect wall so units can't reach your army, the goal is to slow the opponent army with your buildings.
-If the zerg simply destroy some pylons and don't commit it is very good for you because he delayed his whole tech (ravager are gas expensive) and probably his economy. It gives you enough time to get a good army then expand/attack
-Voidrays are very helpful to defend against ravagers but you obviously can't rely only on this unit. Voidrays force the zerg player to either commit immediatly to an attack and thus lose his whole army because you have 5+ photon overcharge waiting for him, or retreat.
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4713 Posts
On November 18 2015 22:30 Mozdk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 17:46 Destructicon wrote:
I'm appalled that after so many years Blizzard still hasn't learned that huge wide open ramps are horrible for natural expansions and quite bad for other expansions too. The worst part of it is, that they picked this map pool for the first season of Legacy. It's so obvious that this map pool should be as standard and boring as possible, to figure out, what needs to be fixed. What needs to be buffed and nerfed. Picking such a non-standard map pool with: Gold bases en masse Two ramps into your natural Big fat ramps that can't be blocked for shit Is such a massive mistake, that I didn't think it was possible. I actually thought the map pool was a joke at first. But no.
Yeah I agree, its the exact same issue as WoL, but at least in Wings we didn't know any better. I hope KeSPA just give Blizzard the finger and use their own maps for SPL, S2SL and GSL.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 18 2015 22:30 Mozdk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 17:46 Destructicon wrote:
I'm appalled that after so many years Blizzard still hasn't learned that huge wide open ramps are horrible for natural expansions and quite bad for other expansions too. The worst part of it is, that they picked this map pool for the first season of Legacy. It's so obvious that this map pool should be as standard and boring as possible, to figure out, what needs to be fixed. What needs to be buffed and nerfed. Picking such a non-standard map pool with: Gold bases en masse Two ramps into your natural Big fat ramps that can't be blocked for shit Is such a massive mistake, that I didn't think it was possible. I actually thought the map pool was a joke at first. But no.
Thanks to the changes in economy and units, the standard doesn't exist anymore and has to be established. Though some things haven't changed(e.g. agoraphobia of Protoss(fear of open spaces  )
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Denmark6989 Posts
On November 18 2015 22:54 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2015 22:30 Mozdk wrote:On November 18 2015 17:46 Destructicon wrote:
I'm appalled that after so many years Blizzard still hasn't learned that huge wide open ramps are horrible for natural expansions and quite bad for other expansions too. The worst part of it is, that they picked this map pool for the first season of Legacy. It's so obvious that this map pool should be as standard and boring as possible, to figure out, what needs to be fixed. What needs to be buffed and nerfed. Picking such a non-standard map pool with: Gold bases en masse Two ramps into your natural Big fat ramps that can't be blocked for shit Is such a massive mistake, that I didn't think it was possible. I actually thought the map pool was a joke at first. But no. Thanks to the changes in economy and units, the standard doesn't exist anymore and has to be established. Though some things haven't changed(e.g. agoraphobia of Protoss(fear of open spaces )
Well lings weren't removed, and gold still favours zerg, so these things will not become standard. Not without buffing all protoss units. Especially workers 
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EPT
