EPT(btw its rOrO now...)
How to save SC2 - Page 10
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Mutaller
United States1051 Posts
(btw its rOrO now...) | ||
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RaZorwire
Sweden718 Posts
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Daswollvieh
5553 Posts
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[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
Yeah, i doesn't have the same views as before, and can't sustain 16 Korean teams, but it still has more than 100k viewers in premier tournaments, we have WCS, we have GSL, IEM, MLG, NASL, etc. There are games that have survived and stayed competitive with far less than that, so i do think people need to stop saying that. Also, if they like Brood War more, thats fine, and that like totally their opinion, there is no need to bash starcraft 2. You can criticize it if you want, as long as it is something constructive, but "herp dep Sc2 is dying, BW is better, david kim is an idiot an everybody who likes starcraft 2 is a fanboy" is not doing anything. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
... TL.net The constant bitching about supposed "design flaws" and "need for redesing" and like about a hundred different phrases of this type created to not sound completely stupid, is slowly making any discussion on this website irrelevant. What we really need is to leave all these people who feel the constant need to tell the world for the milionth time how BW was better behind so they can reassure each other about how right they are and go someplace else, where we can acutally freely enjoy how great SC2 is. | ||
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Aerisky
United States12129 Posts
Try watching paint dry ftfy | ||
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Hoender
South Africa381 Posts
On January 21 2014 17:36 opisska wrote: I think it's nice that there are still people who like the game enough to be positive about it and write articles and whatnot, but I don't think that there is any way to stop the inevitable demise of ... ... TL.net The constant bitching about supposed "design flaws" and "need for redesing" and like about a hundred different phrases of this type created to not sound completely stupid, is slowly making any discussion on this website irrelevant. What we really need is to leave all these people who feel the constant need to tell the world for the milionth time how BW was better behind so they can reassure each other about how right they are and go someplace else, where we can acutally freely enjoy how great SC2 is. Personally I'm starting to get the feeling that all the toxicity and negativity doesn't necessarily only come from a declining player and viewer base (compared to what it was at its peak), but is more an inherent problem when a community reaches a certain size. To me it seems that TL is a pretty happy place as long as you don't browse the SC2 related threads. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On January 21 2014 18:32 Hoender wrote: Personally I'm starting to get the feeling that all the toxicity and negativity doesn't necessarily only come from a declining player and viewer base (compared to what it was at its peak), but is more an inherent problem when a community reaches a certain size. To me it seems that TL is a pretty happy place as long as you don't browse the SC2 related threads. But not browsing the SC2 related threads kind of defeats the purpose of TL. | ||
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Hoender
South Africa381 Posts
On January 21 2014 18:37 opisska wrote: But not browsing the SC2 related threads kind of defeats the purpose of TL. Not if you enjoy other SC and gamey things such as BW and the smaller communities | ||
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Daswollvieh
5553 Posts
On January 21 2014 18:32 Hoender wrote: Personally I'm starting to get the feeling that all the toxicity and negativity doesn't necessarily only come from a declining player and viewer base (compared to what it was at its peak), but is more an inherent problem when a community reaches a certain size. To me it seems that TL is a pretty happy place as long as you don't browse the SC2 related threads. Or it´s just what happens when adolescents move in a social space without being recognized as such. aka the internet | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On January 21 2014 18:38 Hoender wrote: Not if you enjoy other SC and gamey things such as BW and the smaller communities Yes but that doesn't contradict my statement that TL.net is getting irrelevant for SC2. At the moment I think it's mainly the writers who save the day to keep the site connected to SC2 (but even there you can see that the enthusiasm is wearing off and there is often more news on dota 2 than SC2). A couple of years ago, TL was the place for SC2 discussion, all the strategy was here, people who were actually amazing in the game - stuff was just happening here. Now when half of the discussion is "X is bad", what is the point of that? Everyone and his grandmother have the greatest opinion about what exactly should be changed - but guess what, it will never happen, or if it will, it will piss off everyone else, whose much greater opinion was not heard ... If TL is to remain relevant, all the people that hate SC2 in its current form need to leave the SC2 forums now. But I don't see that happening any time soon. | ||
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shur
Germany35 Posts
The blog post combined with its rating is a perfect reflection of the sc2 communities attitude | ||
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ETisME
12704 Posts
On January 21 2014 19:13 opisska wrote: Yes but that doesn't contradict my statement that TL.net is getting irrelevant for SC2. At the moment I think it's mainly the writers who save the day to keep the site connected to SC2 (but even there you can see that the enthusiasm is wearing off and there is often more news on dota 2 than SC2). A couple of years ago, TL was the place for SC2 discussion, all the strategy was here, people who were actually amazing in the game - stuff was just happening here. Now when half of the discussion is "X is bad", what is the point of that? Everyone and his grandmother have the greatest opinion about what exactly should be changed - but guess what, it will never happen, or if it will, it will piss off everyone else, whose much greater opinion was not heard ... If TL is to remain relevant, all the people that hate SC2 in its current form need to leave the SC2 forums now. But I don't see that happening any time soon. I wish we had a liquidhearth equivalent skin for SC2 forum  everything so colourful and pretty over there | ||
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Plissken_2097
Spain628 Posts
On January 21 2014 11:39 chairmobile wrote: But I don't think you can argue that bw was more strategically diverse than sc2. I don't watch practically any sc2 matches to compare, but underrate bw strategic diversity like that just proves that you actually didn't watch/play bw. You could have seem some games/ play some matches, like myself with sc2. That doesn't give you any credibility on your arguments, because from a bw player pov it shows you generate your opinions out of factual proof. Bringing up games from progamers who didn't initiate the trend and were just following it, just shows you only watched couple of games. So instead of reinforcing your point as being a "connnoisseur" of the subject, just shows how you just take random points and throw them at the air. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On January 21 2014 10:49 chairmobile wrote: Yes. It's pretty sad how people (not you that much, but another user above) just assume that anyone that doesn't gloriously fap over the old days of brood war hasn't played both games. I doubt anyone who said bw > sc2 would be asked if they play sc2, but in 3 replies 2 people have asked me if I play bw. The problem I have with people that prefer bw is that they're so freaking vague. I named 10 (and I can name waay more) ways sc2 is a more refined, logical, and efficient game than bw, which is why I prefer it, but your reasons consist of, and I quote: 1. "It just has more". More what? The things I mentioned _are_ what separates D- from C, it's all mechanics until B at least, and they're just stupid. Multi pronged harassment is so much more viable in sc2 than in bw, as are simple things like macro, unit/worker production, etc. A 180 APM player in sc2 can be doing twice as much as a 180 APM player in BW; to dismiss this difference as "worthless" is simply retarded. Sure, the top korean pros will have the ability to do the same things in bw, but for the vast majority of people (and if you're claiming the game is made for ~50 top Kespa pros instead of the thousands who play it around the world, you don't understand capitalism) making everything easier and more efficient by removing needless redundancies make the game a ton better. 2. "SC2 is only more fun when you're bad". Why? I don't see any reasoning there, and there are plenty of people that enjoy sc2 quite a bit (hence the scene is still alive, because if you don't enjoy a challenging game, there is no reason to play it over, say, league or dota). 3. Oh wait, you only gave 2 vague and unsupported reasons, expect that to convince me because you're good at both games (appeal to authority), ignore valid points about game design while ignoring the impact bad game design has on gameplay, and then assume I only have the opinion sc2 > bw because I'm unqualified. This is why I don't like arguing with you people. Every one who likes BW over SC2 has his own personal reasons. Here are some of mine. 1: The micro. A standard protoss mid game army in PvZ of dragoons, high templars, zealots, observers, and archons, is an army I find much more enjoyable to use (and to fight against) than the SC2 equivalent. You have zealots and archons on 2 hotkeys, dragoons on 2 hotkeys, high templars on a hotkey, and your observers on a hotkey (as well as corsairs that are constantly moving around on the map looking for overlords and scouting on yet another hotkey) You want to snipe lurkers with dragoons. This will often cause the Zerg to react with zerglings and hydralisks. When this happens, you have to judge whether a psionic storm is worth it or not. Since the Zerg wants to send in a few units at a time (enough to force you to storm, but few enough so that a psionic storm isn't really worth it) and then kill you with lots of units as you are out of storm, you really need to make each storm count. Often, you will defend your dragoons vs zerglings with zealots and archons, and vs hydralisks with psionic storm. If the current position is too well fortified, with perfectly spread out lurkers, so that they can all fire at the same time, but take no splash damage from psionic storm, and zerglings in front of them, with extra squads ready to be sent in from all directions the moment you commit - then you move around to another area, forcing him to unburrow his lurkers and set up the same formation somewhere else. As you force him to do this, you create opportunities to get good engagements. (Perfectly re-aligning your lurkers over and over and leaving no holes for the Protoss is one of the most satisfying things to do in the game) From the Zerg perspective, you have zerglings, hydralisks, and lurkers in the midgame. (Of course you can add mutalisks, and eventually you may also get defilers, ultralisks, and guardians, but I'm keeping it basic for now). If you are defending, then you want to do what I already wrote about. If you are attacking, you want to send in a constant stream of units, but not all of them at the same time. You have to find a good balance between draining psionic storms out of the Protoss, and not just giving away units for free. If you send in everything at the same time, psionic storm can kill everything you have. So you are sending in zerglings and hydralisks, and at the same time, you have to set up your lurkers in a formation that as compact as possible, to maximize damage, while still being spread out enough so that each psionic storm can only damage one lurker - during the battle. And if he simply takes a few steps back, you have to unburrow and do it again. As he walks backwards, your units on attack move will start chasing him in a line, which makes it easy for him to own you with storm. So you have to react to what he's doing. That's the main thing about micro in Brood War. One player takes an action which demands a reaction from the other, and so on forever. Eventually, as the Protoss, you will probably add reavers. They are too slow to move on their own, so you'll have shuttles for them. If the Zerg is overrunning you with ultralisks, they should be in the middle of your army, safely doing damage. But if you are attacking lurker lines, you want to drop them at the edge of lurker range and snipe units, and pick them up as soon as the enemy approaches. Picking up and repositioning reavers to save them from destruction, focus firing on clumps of units, and making sure you have enough scarabs, is fun. Another example is midgame Protoss vs Protoss. For example: 12 dragoons, 2 reavers, and a shuttle, vs 12 dragoons, 2 reavers, and a shuttle. This one scenario has so much depth that it could be a game worth playing on its own. A superior player will absolutely demolish and embarrass an inferior player in this battle. You want to target the best clump of dragoons with your reavers, and of course, pick them up and pull them back if the opponent tries to target them. Dragoon shots also move just slow enough to let you dodge them, by picking up a reaver that has a shot flying towards it. If the enemy overextends a little, you can snipe a reaver or the shuttle. But if you get too eager, he can pull back, and you'll take lots of unnecessary damage from his dragoons. Also, a really good player will be better at positioning his dragoons so that there aren't any massive clumps. But if you spread them out too much, you can never threaten a "run up and snipe the shuttle / reaver" maneuver, which will let his reavers do more damage than they otherwise would. If they never have to spend time moving out of trouble, then they can spend all their time shooting scarabs. Also, after your reavers have fired scarabs, they have a cooldown period before they can fire again. During this time, it is good to pick them up and react to anything that has happened. Did he run forward? Then you will move your reavers back. Did he run back? Then you will move them forward. Do you need to reposition them slightly in any way? Since they're on cooldown, you lose nothing by doing this. It's also just a generally good thing to do, since he doesn't know what you'll do next if you keep it up. A lot of micro is about prediction and quick analysis and reaction. The best example of it might be mutalisks in ZvT. When you are defending vs mutalisks with marines, you want the mutalisks to fly in to a wall of marines. You can bait the Zerg to fly in by moving around in a bad formation, and then quickly changing the formation to the correct one just in time, when you predict that he will fly in. Moving away from the Zerg, and then unexpectedly stimming and running towards him (which is only good when he moves towards you) is another thing you can do. It's not really rock-paper-scissors, though. It's more like constantly moving in a way that makes you difficult to predict and deal with. As the Zerg, if you predict that the Terran will run away (because he's not ready to fight, since he's not in the correct formation) you can chase him and get extra kills. If you expect him to turn and fight, you run away, and move to some other place, to force him to follow you - and create the wall formation again. There are many more examples, but I hope you get the picture. 2. The strategic diversity In StarCraft 2, I felt pigeonholed in to a boring way to play. I felt like the only way to be creative was to cheese. In Brood War, I don't feel this way. There are so many viable styles and strategies. You can go mass mutalisks while expanding, constantly (literally) attacking the Terran while you take more geysers. You have a low drone count, but it doesn't matter because the units you are making cost more gas than minerals (relative to how fast you can gather them), and you are constantly killing marines and SCV's. Later on, this strategy branches out. You can morph a ton of guardians for a timing attack, or go crazyzerg (ultralisk zergling defiler with no lurkers in the midgame), to name a few examples. When you play standard, you can add guardians if you want to. You can focus everything on optimizing your economy for when you get ultralisks and defilers and "release the kraken" on the Terran. You can do lurker defiler drops in his bases. You can play defensively and just try to take more expansions than your opponent, while defending with lurkers under swarm. Vs bio in to mech, you can go queens if you want to, just defend expos, or be aggressive with ultra ling defiler early. You can do a mass mutalisk switch. There are so many things you can do, but they all cost money, so you can't have them all. Terran can go bio or mech, open bio for the map control, then transition to mech behind a bunch of expansions, thus getting the best of both, go bio and mech at the same time for some sick timing attacks, go bio + valkyries to deal with the mutalisks and get a crazy pre lurker timing. Even within one type of unit composition, there are so many fundamental and radical differences between the different options you have. If you go bio, you can try to get map control and expand a lot, or you can just sit in your base and tech faster, to get an early and potent timing attack. You can transition in to mech very quickly, or stay aggressive with double starport science vessel. You can go fast battle cruisers, you can go for marine medic doomdrops. In ZvP, you can play aggressively with mutalisks and hydralisks, or go for fast queens to snipe high templars. Or you can play defensively with lurkers on 4 bases, and rush to hive. You can also play defensively the entire game, if you wish, and simply try to out expand your opponent, and defend with lurkers and dark swarm while you harass with plague. Or you can rush to 4 bases, defend, and then play aggressively with hydra lurker ling defiler. If your opponent doesn't have a lot of corsairs, you can go guardians. You have a plethora of drop centric strategies. They can be from 3 bases or 4 bases. They can be offensive, or you can play defensively and use them as counter attacks. 3. The economy In StarCraft 2, you max out so quickly, and you end up with these tiny blob armies. You usually get a certain number of workers, and that's it. Expanding beyond three bases doesn't give you much, except for extra gas. In Brood War, it takes longer to max out, and the only match up that regularly goes to 200 is TvP. Having 4 bases is way better than having 3. And having 5 is better than having 4. So basically, it takes longer to reach the end game (the stage of the game during which you have everything unlocked - your maximum economy, your maximum tech, etc), and there are more possibilities before that stage. 4. The movement and the space control Brood War is a very space-oriented game. You must constantly move, and you always try to control space. If my army is standing in my base, I will lose the game to a few lurkers and a defiler, because he'll throw up a dark swarm in my natural and that will be it. I will irradiate his lurkers, but by the time they have died to the damage over time, more units will have streamed in. This will continue until I have lost. So counter attacks, and cutting off reinforcement paths, are very deadly tactics, because a small army can be a potent threat given the right circumstances. This is not the case in StarCraft 2. However, if I was in the middle of the map, I will force a dark swarm there. Hopefully I will irradiate the defiler, and he will have to send over a new one to the dark swarm, consume a zergling, and push forward again with another swarm. The best case scenario is that I am right outside his natural. If he wants to threaten me from there, he will have to push all the way from his base to mine. During this entire time, I will snipe units, force dark swarms, force consumes, and irradiate defilers. The more map control you have, the better. Not only defensively, but also offensively. If my army is outside his base, and I send a dropship to it, I threaten both his main and his third base with drops. If he has to pay attention to the drop in his main, then he may forget to throw up dark swarms in time at his natural, and I can go kill him. If he manages to do both of these things, maybe his macro will suffer, or maybe he'll die to the second drop that goes to his third - which he would normally notice and deal with using scourge. It's so much easier to deal with a drop that simply flies from the Terran's base to the Zerg's base, than it is to deal with a drop that flies from right outside the Zerg's natural, to any of his bases. If the Zerg breaks out of this "contain", (which he always will eventually, with dark swarm), then he can start sending small squads of lurkers, defilers, and zerglings around on the map. If a small squad manages to sneak in to the Terran's third base or his natural, that base is shut down until science vessels can show up and kill the lurkers over time with irradiate. The Zerg can expect this, however, and snipe the vessels with scourge if he knows where the vessels are. He can intercept them on the way home. So you have to spread out your army as Terran, to deal with these small squads. When you are in control, you are truly dominant. Your opponent feels predictable and slow. You know what he's going to do before he does it. You have all lanes covered, you are constantly moving around and forcing him to adapt to you. But when you are not in control, you are in the dark and scared. He could show up anywhere and destroy you. 5. The multi tasking, the apm, the stuff people like you whine about APM & attention is a resource that you must spend wisely. There is more to do than you can do, so you must choose what is the most important. Like minerals and gas, you can harass your opponents supply. If I do something that takes more apm to deal with than it takes to execute, I can use that advantage. For example, a drop in TvZ might let me irradiate some units and move forward on the map, closer to his side of it. In StarCraft 2, I felt like I had too much apm to spare. APM management is one of the most complex and interesting things to master in Brood War. I can do more things now in less time than I could in the past, with the same amount of apm. It's because I prioritize better, and my "to-do" list is more intelligently put together, in such a way that the things that take more time, can be done when I have the time, and not much else that needs to be done. Sometimes I will queue up units a little earlier than what is "optimal" to give myself more time, because I know that somethinig time and attention consuming is coming up. Same with supply depots. If I won't have time to go back and make them later, when they are needed, I should probably spend the minerals on them now. Because the opportunity cost for that in minerals might be higher, but the opportunity cost in apm is much lower. Basically, in SC2, there is too little apm required, so this interesting, strategic part of the game is toned down too much. Maybe it's a little better if you play Terran, but it's still unfair and bad that only one race has it. 6. The ability to win games that you should not win There is more wiggleroom in Brood War. More areas in which you can be better than your opponent. This makes it easier to win games that you should not win. The other day, I was very ahead vs a Protoss opponent as Terran. He had gone for some cheesy gas steal 2 gate aggression, which I defended well. I was going to punish him with a tank vulture timing that was rather committed. I was actually ahead on supply for a while, and I really should have won. But that guy outplayed me so hard. He kept moving his army forward, forcing me to siege my tanks, and then moving back. He cleared out mines. He threatened to cut off my reinforcement path, and slunk away when I tried to corner him. I tried to lay mines in the path his dragoons would take to escape, but he was already there with more units, so that didn't work. He picked off stray vultures. He moved his army to different spots, forcing me to prepare for attacks from different angles. It was so hard to keep up with his movement. I realized that I was taking more time than I should, and that my timing window was closing (He had a base that was about to kick in), so I tried to speed things up, but by the time I finally reached him and we had a large battle (as opposed to small skirmishes and maneuvers) he had survived long enough, and beat me. In SC2, if the Terran has an MMMVG ball that is too large in PvT, what are you gonna do? There are more reasons, but I'm tired of writing for now There is absolutely no reason to presume I haven't played both games given that I'm complaining about gameplay flaws that are not apparent to people who only watch, or have neither played nor watched. I have yet to talk to any one who was decent at both games (master league, C+, something like that) who didn't think BW is better. I have only seen players who are either bad at both games, good at SC2 but bad at BW, or who never really played BW much, say that SC2 is better.  | ||
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Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
On January 21 2014 19:13 opisska wrote: Yes but that doesn't contradict my statement that TL.net is getting irrelevant for SC2. At the moment I think it's mainly the writers who save the day to keep the site connected to SC2 (but even there you can see that the enthusiasm is wearing off and there is often more news on dota 2 than SC2). A couple of years ago, TL was the place for SC2 discussion, all the strategy was here, people who were actually amazing in the game - stuff was just happening here. Now when half of the discussion is "X is bad", what is the point of that? Everyone and his grandmother have the greatest opinion about what exactly should be changed - but guess what, it will never happen, or if it will, it will piss off everyone else, whose much greater opinion was not heard ... If TL is to remain relevant, all the people that hate SC2 in its current form need to leave the SC2 forums now. But I don't see that happening any time soon. You think TL SC2 forums are the center of the hate, whine, etc.? I would advise you to check out almost anywhere else (bnet forums, reddit...) and realize it's pretty tame here, and there are a lot of people who post in the SC2 forums who actually love the game and love discussing it. The TL strategy guys are pumping out guides and game analyses, the writers are doing an awesome job both recapping tournaments and doing independent pieces.TL is still the place for SC2 discussion and that's pretty much that. Also can you guys take the "BW is better than SC2" "no SC2 is better than BW" to PM's? That was not the purpose of this blog. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12449 Posts
On January 20 2014 21:02 FFW_Rude wrote: I don't get why it's not fine to tel : league of legend is shit in the lol forum but you can actually say SC2 is shit in the SC2 forum. it's always bugging me. I feel the need to quote this. | ||
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puppykiller
United States3137 Posts
Good post Voddy. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
With you, I don't get why I can't crap on BW in the BW, but people can passive aggressively shot on SC2 all day on the SC2 forum. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10142 Posts
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