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On January 04 2014 00:08 Laurens wrote:
I've actually been in a game where I was second slot and the pink guy on my team had less MMR than me (only 6 points). I was solo and he must've been too since he was pink and I was 2nd slot.
I made a post about it at the time, somewhere in GD or the ranked matchmaking thread idk. No screenshot evidence sadly.
Was there a party on your team?
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On January 04 2014 00:11 Alur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 00:08 Laurens wrote:
I've actually been in a game where I was second slot and the pink guy on my team had less MMR than me (only 6 points). I was solo and he must've been too since he was pink and I was 2nd slot.
I made a post about it at the time, somewhere in GD or the ranked matchmaking thread idk. No screenshot evidence sadly. Was there a party on your team?
I don't remember, this was 2-3 weeks ago when MMR was still public.
Does it matter though? Even if 2 or 3 players are in a party, the other solo's should still be sorted by rank.
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On January 04 2014 00:11 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 00:06 SKC wrote:
Requiring "admissable evidence" on TL must be a joke. Who cares if a court of law wouldn't accept it. This is something tbat should be fairly obvious to see with only a few games, if it exists. If colors are random, even one game where the 5 players are ordered is unlikely. Not believing anything unless an official source is about as silly as believing in anything that helps your bias, like Elo hell belivers. You can think for yourself.
I did. Watch this. I don't believe the random posts on the internet about it with zero evidence to back it up. MMR is hidden unless you are friends with the player, so it is hard to to tell other players MMR in solo cue and when you are in a stack, it does not put in in order of MMR. Until I see evidence that isn't "I played a game and we were all in order. Its real guys," I don't think its true and its one of those myths. I am happy to be proven wrong, bum.t people have to put more effort in than "No man, its real."
It's more about your absurd notion that being a lawyer matters, you mention it a lot for some reason. This is an internet forum, you dont need hard evidence. If you dont believe it, fine, but don't use a bs argument like this wouldnt hold up in court.
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On January 04 2014 00:18 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 00:11 Plansix wrote:On January 04 2014 00:06 SKC wrote:
Requiring "admissable evidence" on TL must be a joke. Who cares if a court of law wouldn't accept it. This is something tbat should be fairly obvious to see with only a few games, if it exists. If colors are random, even one game where the 5 players are ordered is unlikely. Not believing anything unless an official source is about as silly as believing in anything that helps your bias, like Elo hell belivers. You can think for yourself.
I did. Watch this. I don't believe the random posts on the internet about it with zero evidence to back it up. MMR is hidden unless you are friends with the player, so it is hard to to tell other players MMR in solo cue and when you are in a stack, it does not put in in order of MMR. Until I see evidence that isn't "I played a game and we were all in order. Its real guys," I don't think its true and its one of those myths. I am happy to be proven wrong, bum.t people have to put more effort in than "No man, its real." It's more about your absurd notion that being a lawyer matters, you mention it a lot for some reason. This is an internet forum, you dont need hard evidence. If you dont believe it, fine, but don't use a bs argument like this wouldnt hold up in court.
You do realize I was joking around in response to someone using the word circumstantial evidence, right? I don't expect all arguments to meet the standards of legal evidence. You took it a little to seriously.
However, there is hard difference between hard evidence and zero evidence. And right now, that is all I have seen, just posts from people claiming "It's real man".
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On January 04 2014 00:18 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 00:11 Plansix wrote:On January 04 2014 00:06 SKC wrote:
Requiring "admissable evidence" on TL must be a joke. Who cares if a court of law wouldn't accept it. This is something tbat should be fairly obvious to see with only a few games, if it exists. If colors are random, even one game where the 5 players are ordered is unlikely. Not believing anything unless an official source is about as silly as believing in anything that helps your bias, like Elo hell belivers. You can think for yourself.
I did. Watch this. I don't believe the random posts on the internet about it with zero evidence to back it up. MMR is hidden unless you are friends with the player, so it is hard to to tell other players MMR in solo cue and when you are in a stack, it does not put in in order of MMR. Until I see evidence that isn't "I played a game and we were all in order. Its real guys," I don't think its true and its one of those myths. I am happy to be proven wrong, bum.t people have to put more effort in than "No man, its real." It's more about your absurd notion that being a lawyer matters, you mention it a lot for some reason. This is an internet forum, you dont need hard evidence. If you dont believe it, fine, but don't use a bs argument like this wouldnt hold up in court.
...I herein request a tempban on the account of not being able to keep my shit tight.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Colors means nothing. I'm only at 4800 mmr and I was blue over mason when everyone was solo qing. His mmr is way way higher, Beesa confirms, he just randomly gets blue/pink alot.
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On January 03 2014 23:54 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 23:50 Laserist wrote:On January 03 2014 23:32 kollin wrote:On January 03 2014 23:04 Plansix wrote:On January 03 2014 22:53 kollin wrote:On January 03 2014 21:17 Plansix wrote:
I love the myths that pop up around ranked match making, real or otherwise. People reading into what order people are placed in and using that as proof of something. It always me how quickly people just assume things when it all could just be completely random. I love how quickly you come to your own conclusions despite not really knowing anything about the topic at hand and therefore not having any evidence for or against. Just being positive for the sake of being positive is useless if you're not actually right. Until I see a note from someone like CyborgMatt or Valve on the subject, it is all myth, sorcery and internet bullshit. There is no reason to put people in order by MMR and there is no evidence to support it that I have seen. And you should really stop assuming how much people know or don't know about a subject. Its a bad habit that a lot of kids have. There's a decent amount of circumstantial evidence that's very, very easy to find if you look for it. And don't you fucking dare use the 'you're just a kid you don't know shit anyway'. It's the most obnoxious, degrading, baseless argument that boils down to you knowing you're wrong and clawing at ways to make yourself still feel superior. Even though the language is obnoxious, he is right. Neither Valve nor Cmatt didn't claim any relation with color and skill afaik. We expect a solid proof rather than he said she said. Even if the relation is there, probably there wouldn't be enough skill difference between players to force brown/orange player to go support or some other bs. The language was obnoxious because Kollin likes to call me out for what he feels is being "overly positive" and "jumping to conclusions". He's my little TL dota stalker.
Jesus christ you're cocky lol, I don't stalk you I just read this website and get annoyed, like a great many deal of people, about how you obnoxiously flaunt your opinions as if they were fact despite them being extremely ignorant.
User was warned for this post
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No one can say with 100% certainty that color and mmr are explicitly related, because there has not yet been a statement confirming it...but there is very strong evidence suggesting that in solo queue blue is the highest mmr on the team. Take a look at Dendi's match history, when he solo queues he is basically always blue/pink. Compare this with any other high level mmr solo player/streamer--arteezy, sing, etc.. Even from anecdotal experience, when I'm blue/pink on a ~5.1k account the game is typically filled with a bunch of randoms. It's funny that people are saying color has absolutely no correlation to mmr when they're in fact just totally clueless.
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On January 04 2014 00:08 Laurens wrote:
I've actually been in a game where I was second slot and the pink guy on my team had less MMR than me (only 6 points). I was solo and he must've been too since he was pink and I was 2nd slot.
I made a post about it at the time, somewhere in GD or the ranked matchmaking thread idk. No screenshot evidence sadly.
Maybe he queued and accepted that game quickly enough that the MMR changes from the prior game (a loss) hadn't registered yet.
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On January 04 2014 00:54 swedewannabe wrote:
Colors means nothing. I'm only at 4800 mmr and I was blue over mason when everyone was solo qing. His mmr is way way higher, Beesa confirms, he just randomly gets blue/pink alot.
From a programmer's point of view, in order for the slots/colors to be truly random, person writing the code would have to deliberately randomize them after the complete teams have been formed.
If that is not the case, the order depends entirely on how the matchmaking algorithm works and the order in which it picks up players and adds them to the team list. It is thus very possible that there is some logic to the colors the players are assigned. It's just probably not super consistent because things like stacks or queue/cancel timings could conceivably mess with it, as well as the randomness inherent to matchmaking itself.
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I remember looking at a couple of games through the watch tab back when ratings were public, in both matches I looked at ratings alligned perfectly by colours for both teams.
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On January 04 2014 04:27 -FmP- wrote:
No one can say with 100% certainty that color and mmr are explicitly related, because there has not yet been a statement confirming it...but there is very strong evidence suggesting that in solo queue blue is the highest mmr on the team. Take a look at Dendi's match history, when he solo queues he is basically always blue/pink. Compare this with any other high level mmr solo player/streamer--arteezy, sing, etc.. Even from anecdotal experience, when I'm blue/pink on a ~5.1k account the game is typically filled with a bunch of randoms. It's funny that people are saying color has absolutely no correlation to mmr when they're in fact just totally clueless.
It sounds absurdly unlikely that MMR would by related to some distribution of probabilities of a certain colour. Either the colours are sorted by MMR, or they are not. (disregarding whatever weirdness is caused by parties.) Meaning we should only need one example of a game where everyone solo queues and the highest ranking person is not blue/pink to disprove the theory of MMR -> colour causation. And someone on this page claims he was in such a game *shrugs*.
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On January 04 2014 05:51 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 00:54 swedewannabe wrote:
Colors means nothing. I'm only at 4800 mmr and I was blue over mason when everyone was solo qing. His mmr is way way higher, Beesa confirms, he just randomly gets blue/pink alot. From a programmer's point of view, in order for the slots/colors to be truly random, person writing the code would have to deliberately randomize them after the complete teams have been formed. If that is not the case, the order depends entirely on how the matchmaking algorithm works and the order in which it picks up players and adds them to the team list. It is thus very possible that there is some logic to the colors the players are assigned. It's just probably not super consistent because things like stacks or queue/cancel timings could conceivably mess with it, as well as the randomness inherent to matchmaking itself.
Actually, this makes much more sense than what I wrote.
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On January 04 2014 06:57 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 04:27 -FmP- wrote:
No one can say with 100% certainty that color and mmr are explicitly related, because there has not yet been a statement confirming it...but there is very strong evidence suggesting that in solo queue blue is the highest mmr on the team. Take a look at Dendi's match history, when he solo queues he is basically always blue/pink. Compare this with any other high level mmr solo player/streamer--arteezy, sing, etc.. Even from anecdotal experience, when I'm blue/pink on a ~5.1k account the game is typically filled with a bunch of randoms. It's funny that people are saying color has absolutely no correlation to mmr when they're in fact just totally clueless. It sounds absurdly unlikely that MMR would by related to some distribution of probabilities of a certain colour. Either the colours are sorted by MMR, or they are not. (disregarding whatever weirdness is caused by parties.) Meaning we should only need one example of a game where everyone solo queues and the highest ranking person is not blue/pink to disprove the theory of MMR -> colour causation. And someone on this page claims he was in such a game *shrugs*.
He has to be 100% sure there were no parties involved though.
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United States600 Posts
I'm not sure why people like Plansix are so defensive about the color = MMR, if I am in a ranked game I am playing to win, thus if I am brown player I'm more likely to switch roles/do something so that the better players play a role which they are the best with. Maybe it is different for me because less popular roles like support and offlane are my best ones, and a player that goes mid or feed every game might not like it as much, but that's my opinion.
Obviously if you get shit about colors in an unranked game just mute them and do whatever.
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If it isn't random, it is more likely than not the MMR/player color relation is just a correlation based on how the MM algorithm collects players that are queued, i.e. the algorithm tends to find higher MMR players first and throw them into an available color for a game (probably one of the "earlier" colors) and then searches for other players until MM conditions are met.
Of course I have no idea if this is what is happening, or if there is a relationship at all, that is just what I am assuming based on logic.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 04 2014 07:02 Penecks wrote:
I'm not sure why people like Plansix are so defensive about the color = MMR, if I am in a ranked game I am playing to win, thus if I am brown player I'm more likely to switch roles/do something so that the better players play a role which they are the best with. Maybe it is different for me because less popular roles like support and offlane are my best ones, and a player that goes mid or feed every game might not like it as much, but that's my opinion.
Obviously if you get shit about colors in an unranked game just mute them and do whatever.
Unless stacks are involved (which mucks up the color = MMR assumption anyway) or you are at the very top or bottom end of the ladder, the MMR spread within a game simply should not be high enough for anyone to meaningfully say the worst player on the team is the one with the worst MMR because variance based on streaks/etc. should be higher than the spread in the game.
It's not so much that color = MMR is a problem, it's that people tend to draw outrageous conclusions from someone being qualitatively lower than them when the MMR spread on the team might only be 50-100 MMR (basically meaningless). The idea that somehow the brown player is worse than the other players on his team by enough that he should defer to their judgment and play what they want him to play rather than what he wants to is just absurd because unless he's stacking with a way better friend and KNOWS hes that much worse, he shouldn't actually be a worse player by a significant enough margin to matter.
On January 04 2014 07:07 Vikeif wrote:
If it isn't random, it is more likely than not the MMR/player color relation is just a correlation based on how the MM algorithm collects players that are queued, i.e. the algorithm tends to find higher MMR players first and throw them into an available color for a game (probably one of the "earlier" colors) and then searches for other players until MM conditions are met.
Of course I have no idea if this is what is happening, or if there is a relationship at all, that is just what I am assuming based on logic.
It also makes sense because all the verifiable cases of color corresponding to MMR have come from players at the very top end of the ladder.
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Get 200 people from TL queue at the same time with TL tag, wait for random to put 4-5 on same team, profit.
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On January 04 2014 08:31 unkkz wrote:
Get 200 people from TL queue at the same time with TL tag, wait for random to put 4-5 on same team, profit.
If the people are reasonably close in rating, and you all use an obscure combination of server/mode/language it should be quite possible.
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who has 6k mmr right now? Fata? Beesa? Sing?
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EPT
